Sour Goat Dick

[nardfrog]

Is it me or has this place been increasingly negetive towards others work lately? Maybe it's just cuz there are so many members now, but this place is getting cold as ice. (PS Im not sure if im helping either)

Just wondering what others think.

peace

[Cyrus]

I agree. Its not like someone has to react instantly to a rude comment or controversial picture. I can only picture someone typing furiously at the keyboard trying to get their message out as fast as possible, unless you're really trying to be rude, there is no need for it.

[captnblack]

i think art forums have a "cool" life span of no more than a year and then the regulars become overwhelmed and pushed away by newcomers. ca has been around for over a year now. its past due for a new art forum.

[geoffd]

sometimes people just lose the idea behind this forum, they forget what a beautiful place has been created for them. some people choose to abuse that. i know in days long past i was one of those that expected too much from this forum and gained nothing. stepping back and reflecting i can see now that i gain more each day then i ever thought possible. those that are quick to gripe and complain and push buttons will lose intrest soon. this site is more like a learning center where you will get out of it what you put into it. if you choose to let others remarks bother you and upset you to where you go to another forum, so be it. there is none like CA.org. stick with it, take the time to reflect yourself and see what you're taking from all of this.

[defcombeta]

well speaking as a new ish member, i find that yes people can be cold and look and say nothing , but when they do talk /type they give nuggets of knowledge that one should heed, i myself have learned a great deal even today, and my thanks to that person for showing me something that would have taken a while to have dawnened on me. for those of us how still sapire this place is perhaps the first step to getting to the next level of our untapped skills. just my random ramblings

john mac

[nardfrog]

Hey I dont think anyone is saying someone new cannot offer this place any good nor is anyone saying this place sucks, but i have been here since the first week it opened (actualy in like March of 2002 before the server change) and Ive noticed that the larger this place gets, the less personal and responsible the members act.

I cant imagine that if this place had only 40 members that all posted regularly, would have some of the shit said that I see on here.

Its okay to be laidback and even have a since of humor (like look at the title of this thread), but for anyone that has doubts, please just think of the kind of feedback you want on your art before you go saying something like "looks like a bad copy of so-n-so's art"

You guys all have some good points, thanks!

[OLSEN]

Hi there,

im fairly new here too, atleast i think so, i dont know what to compare myself with.. anyhow, heres my thoughts:

Firstly, i cant say that i have noticed anything of what you speak of nardfrog, i mostly hang out in the DSG forum. But it´s not unusual to hear complaints here in the lounge from members that they never get replies on their work, or they get like 2 replies and 600 views, that has to suck..

I don´t know where im going with this, except that perhaps it´s time to take some time to drop more and nicer comments in the finally finished section and do my small part to keep this forum a nice and warm place, i´ll start tomorrow.

[gasmask]

Yeah i think most take there anger and problems out on the forums because its an easy outlet, i say this because i have done it once or twice, give someone an extra harsh crit, its stupid but it happenes, oh NARD, when are u gonna post some art dammit, i loved ur stuff, whats the deal?

[nardfrog]

hey thanks man, i aint got webspace so i cant :(
but ill come out of the closet someday ;)

BTW where in seatlle are you? Im on the eatside (lake wash)

[gasmask]

oh tite, im in renton, we should go draw sometime. There are alot of great spots in seattle where other artists kick it as well. do you have aol instand messenger?

[MGH]

I've been 'here' since December of last year and have noticed some changes but I think that's the nature of the beast. Like it or not the forum is a democracy &
the more popular it gets the more 'diverse' the contributions.
The only thing that has bugged me of late is that there seems to have been a small influx of nobbs who's only reason to be here is to shit-disturb. I imagine they visit a number of unrelated forums, chat rooms, etc. with that object in mind.
I still love this place and continue to be impressed almost every day (BTW, I come from a time long ago when there was no internet and the only way a young person living in the boonies & interested in illustration could get influenced was buying the odd 'Heavy Metal')

[bRyaN]

MAybe a screening process, for potential members...

People post for a certain number of weeks, prove valuable to the community and then become full fledged members...

They would have limited access to forums...participating in the DSG, and other community building activities...

An example of this process is used by gaming guilds (SWG clan The Imperial Order (www.theimperialorder.com)...A person signs up...their activites and behavior are monitored for a certain number of weeks....after this period passes if this person proves to be a valuable asset to the group they are initiated into the clan...

It may take some work, but it will seperate those who are serious about being a contributing member to this site and those are here to be trolls....and it will definately help this board maintain a professional level of integrity

I'll glady volunteer to moderate along with some assistance(i'm at desk at work 7 hours a day)...

[usagi yojimbo]

i dont like the idea of a screening process at all

ive thought the same thing on occassion but i think that the whole reason why places like this are so great is the fact that anyone can register and contribute something even if it is something negative.

[AfroLaxMan]

I have to agree about some of the "coldness" that has been here. I have been a member for over a year, and i did post often, with only minimal feedback. I got discouraged, and now I rarely put my work up for display.

I still try to critique art, and I usually have a tone of how I prefer to be critiqued, sandwich as much positive with the negative, giving some sort of balance to it all.

I don't think a screening would do anything but turn people off. People should try to leave here with as much as possible. Even a bad crtitque should give an artist something to think about. (Even bad advice is good, in that it tells you what someone did wrong.)

I work in an enviroment that could just tear someone apart if they let it. So, I don't let it. I re-work, tweak, and move on as best as possible. I will always be my worst critic, and I doubt I will ever satisfy myself, so I don't get down from what others say at this moment in my artistic growth.

[captnblack]

i think there needs to be more of a balance here. there are a lot of people posting for crits or to get "online" art classes, which seems somewhat contrary to the title of the board. its become more of a generic art forum than one specifically devoted to concept art or design. plus it seems that pros rarely if often post and also comment. this is no fault of theirs seeing as they have a job. in the end it boils down to people that have a lot of time to post in threads and it seems like a lot of people dont care to share their opinion when they are critical however they pile on praise in the superstars threads or in the latest attacks on a art fraud. its really a herd mentality here. i think ca has gotten too big and too inexperienced for its own good. its probably easier and more fun to get a bunch of friends together and drink beers and sketch.

[N D Hill]

I've said this before in a previous debate on these issues: It bugs me to no end that people come here not knowing what concept art is and assume that it applies to their doodles of 'badass warrior guys" on lined paper.

Concept art, at least as I interpret it, is the visual realization of a concept. It doesn't exist untill you create it. The subject is not the image itself but the idea. It's the idea that the artist invests in and sees to fruition. Of course this is really vague but I believe a definite deviation from this definition would be art that shows no sign of personal investment. there no exploration of style, theme, idea or expression. This means that the artist doesn't even value their own work yet we are supposed to. I'm not saying we should start sepperating people by skill as I'm certainly nowhere near the level of being worthy of CA style praise and idol worship. I'm saying that people should come here with a desire to pursue concept art and pursue not only improvement as far as skill is concerned but their desire to articulate their own ideas as well. If someone's serious, they'll have no problem showing it.

Conceptart is the best art forum around. The commitment and dedication to artistic education and expression on the part of the leaders is the best I've seen online ever. I think as members we should all try to return the favor.
:bheart: :fruit: :bheart: :fruit: :bheart: :fruit: :bheart:

viva concept art! Death to our enemies! May their crops yeild a poor harvest come winter!

[nil]

i find that the "regulars" or old-timers are all polite, constructive and good humored. generally i just dont pay much heed to what people say unless i know their name.

also, i await the site update with baited breath.

[nardfrog]

This place will have a new look in about three weeks. Im excited to see what it will look like. Maybe it will motivate ppl to be more friendly. :)

[ClocktowerArtworks]

self deleted

[PencilPunx]

Whether it be an art site, or a poetry site, or a fiction writing site or even a recipe site, whenever you exhibit your own work for all the world to see you are essentially putting your ego on the line. In any setting like that there are going to be emotions running on high and some people are bound to take criticism personally. I'd guess this is especially true of those who are new to the concept of posting on a forum and don't understand that they should expect others to point out flaws with their work. It doesn't help that text on a screen does not accurately convey the "tone" with which something is said, so what may have been an innoccent attempt at helpful advice by one may be taken as a personal attack by another.

The other factor is that people are naturally drawn to conflict. When spats flare up (the guy with the recent fish rubbing thread springs to mind) a lot of people take notice. So while the negative events may garner a lot of attention, I would by no means say this is a mostly negative community. I've posted here numerous times, and while some of my work is not really "concept art" and ALL of it is far from what the "superstars" can do, everyone who has posted in my threads thus far has been nothing but polite and helpful.

[JoshuaTheJames]

Originally posted by Exo
:bheart: :fruit: :bheart: :fruit: :bheart: :fruit: :bheart:

viva concept art!

hah hah!

"Viva..Viva Senior Burns ..VIva!"

[bRyaN]

Well the screening process is not to prevent others from giving negative critiques...I strongly agree about having both Negative and positive critiques...i thinnk it should be made a practice to give both a positive and negative comments when critiquing someone's work...

No one's art is flawless, not even the pros..

It's to stop the kids who come on the boards to say, "This is crap..." and don't offer any reason for why a particualr piece of work is"crap" these kind of people contribute nothing...


i dont like the idea of a screening process at all

ive thought the same thing on occassion but i think that the whole reason why places like this are so great is the fact that anyone can register and contribute something even if it is something negative.

Well that's a lil vague...

I don't think an overall negative person, should be in a website where people are trying to learn from one another give honest critiques, and solid advice...

The art forums are not here to brown-nose the greats, that's why i set up a who is your fave thread in the lounge...

[usagi yojimbo]

bRyaN, i dont really get how my post was vague.

i dont think you get what i mean by negative, i just meant crits that arent constructive

also if they're kids who say "this is crap" then who cares? they're just kids. they should still be able to post

[captnblack]

i think "this is crap" is just as useful as "OMFG THIS IS AWESOME"

[bRyaN]

Originally posted by captnblack
i think "this is crap" is just as useful as "OMFG THIS IS AWESOME"

I completely agree...although i'm very guilty of that...

[bRyaN]

Usagi, i thought you meant something else....apologies

But none the less, the more kids say OMFG this awesome or this looks like shit...the boards have been getting cluttered...

And anything other then constructive critiques don't exist...
Even a critique that may sound harsh(or negative), still should point out the flaws so that an artist may improve...

I'm not to into a screening process, it was an idea to help bring up the level a notch or 2...

We have to remember Professionals do post here as do employers, and like anything you have to make an impression...

[captnblack]

i think it would be an interesting experiment to have a main "finished" section devoted to just crits and make the praise please section into a repository for people that want comments like "OMG I LOVE IT." If you make a clear distinction of where to post for what type of comments you want, would help the situation a lot. I know in the past, there have been a lot of problems wanting praise and instead getting crits, etc.

[PencilPunx]

Maybe I'm just modest, but are there really people who post work and EXPECT nothing but praise? There are many extremely talented people using this site, but I've yet to see someone post a piece and say "this is perfect." Should at some point in time a "Praise Please" section comes to be, if anyone ever sees my work there please have me banned immediately because I've turned into an arrogant bastard and I need to be brought back down to reality.

[OLSEN]

Originally posted by PencilPunx
Should at some point in time a "Praise Please" section comes to be

There already is one, its called ooohs and aaaahs.

btw, i fail to see the problem in people posting "omfg its excellent!!!!". If you see a piece you like and you dont have any crits to give, an OMFG!!! is better then nothing. Constructive crits are good, but being told that your work is good by fellow artists can be just as good, it can spur you on to do even greater things.

Being told that your art is crap in a non constructive ways is not good though.

[nikia]

I agree with Olsen, there is nothing wrong in being told your work is good. It gives a feeling of accomplishment and spurs you on to greater success. While being told your work is crap or being ignored, (especially for young people) can be so devestating that they will never pick up a pencil again!
Bravo Olsen, btw, I saw your part about posting more in the finished section. Could you please post more in the wip section. People, the wip section is the most neglected section on the forum and that's where the up and coming artists are going for help or feedback on their work. I think we should try and help the wip section more. You never know the next Jason, Android or Leonardo might be sitting in there getting discouraged and thinking about putting his/her pencils up for life,...........and for what? Because nobody wants to bother or be kind enough to give a comment or critique on their work?
I think we need both. Compliments and critiques are what makes an artist grow!

[AnarchyAo2]

I think that people take crits a little to serious. Some people will just "nit-pick" at every little detail in a picture and it degrades the artist. Some people are just assholes. Some people just speak their mind (thats me), and that okay as long has you have something meaningful to say.

[nardfrog]

AnarchyAo2:
I totaly agree with you! Some of the ppl on this thread may have missunderstod what i started this thread for. Im not sitting here whinning that ppl arnt saying everything is perfect - that would be lame and fake.

Im saying there are ppl on here that give a totaly negetive post with no constructive input. Those are useless. There is no way saying someones work is a piece of shit does any good at all. Saying the work is great is totaly different. Why? Because ppl are stiving to create good work, so that recognition shows graditude. no one is trying to make piece of shit art work, so to say thats it looks like shit is simply insulting. Im not syaing ppl here are necessarily calling others work shit, im just using that as an example.

[Gunbu]

Who said a critique has to be only negative? A critique is pointing out what one thinks is bad AND good about a piece. But if someone only has something negative to say... that's their opinion, asshole or not. As long as someone comments on my work, I'm happy, even if they say it looks like shit. I mean, you're putting a piece of work ON THE INTERNET, for people to anonymously post comments about it. More than likely the one posting the piece likes it in one way or another, but obvisously that doesn't mean everyone will. Hell, that's one of the good things about this forum growing so large!
Also, what kind of person would post a piece of art in a section only devoted to "praise"? What the hell good is that? "Yesh, yesh, plesh post praisesh but don't tell me you dont likesh it." If you have to post something only to fish for people to tell you how cool it is, then I want no part of it.
Ok, ok. I do agree that when it get's personal and someone makes a comment about the person who did the piece and not the piece itself, like "this guy is a gaylord", then that person has a right to be pissed. But shit, if someone says "go study anatomy, you suck at it", maybe they should take that comment, as harsh as it may be, as a positive kick in the ass. Although totally remembering that it's just one guy's (or girl's) opinion and not fact. Shit, who knows, if Leonardo posted on this forum there might be one guy who didn't like his art and didn't mind telling him.
When I leave comments about someone's work, I try to point out both good and bad points about it. But still, that's my opinion.
If anything is to change, then at the MOST there should be a "Suggested Guidelines for Posting Comments" that new members should read. I mean, most of these people have never been in an art school critique or in a professional setting and may not have the slightest idea how a critique should work or even the idea behind it. And at the LEAST posters should keep that in mind, and be grateful that someone took the time to say anything at all.

[togusa]

in response to the whole praise idea, nothing is ever perfect, there is always something that can be done. it just depends where you are in relationship as an artist to the guys whos work you are criting. but thats usually for technical considerations. i mean on the personal level people have their own tastes in what they enjoy and what they dont. then does it make it wrong for someone to say "i hate it?" i really don't know. if you ever had an art class you know that they are always the two extremes. there is always the one or two people that hate everything and the one that loves everything and then the people that dont share their opinions or sway back and forth. truthfully, i think its a waste having threads with 50 replies patting ass. usually people that do good work, already know that their work is good(it doesnt mean that they cant be humble). forums really become a lot of people trying to get ahead by becoming buddy buddy with already established well known artists and leeching off of them. i dislike the cock-sucking mentality here as much as i see it at school.

[NOOSE]

Alot of good points in this thread...If someone is in my opinion, way the heck ahead of me in skill and devlopment, or has a very personal established style I dont crit I just praise..because im not good enough to give crits on what I dont fully understand(I wish more people could admit that)..would hate to get them looking in the wrong direction for improvement when they should be working on something else.

And in that line of thought I usualy ignore positive AND negative feedback form people whos art Is in my opinion lesser developed then my own, and I SUPER appreciate and cherish any crits from no madder how sharp and painfull when it comes from someone whos art I worship! even if I dont understand what they mean right off the bat I force myself to see what they are explaining and have learned a metric ton in the process...

I have an interview somewere with Todd Mcfarlane, were he tells young artists to only take crits from other artists and not to pay too much attention to those that dont or cant draw...
you may not agree.. but if you cant find anything that you know was definetly not intended, or you know damn well you have no clue what the artist needs to work on..dont say anything criticle..instead just comp what you like and move on to the next...

[Fipse]

Hi Noose,

And in that line of thought I usualy ignore positive AND negative feedback form people whos art Is in my opinion lesser developed then my own,

I´m not your opinion in strictly valuating a critic by the art someone´s producing. That means for me in other cases that every critic of writing has to be a good writer and every of my customers who doesn´t know what typographic rules I´m using can´t valuate my work. This doesn´t work because especially in a commercialized field like Concept art you have to take critics from every direction and have to work with them. I´m an art-director myself and if my layouter or illustrator isn´t hitting the point than I have to tell it to him - even if he´s got better skills than me. He of course can tell me why he´s done things the way he did and we can discuss it constructionally but this is how it works out. When he´s telling me "I´m a better artist than you, you haven´t got the right to critizise me" it´s the best way for him looking fo a new job. Welcome to the real world!

I´m somehow a mediocre artist here on the board and I often enough got good hints and tips from people who just started. Even my girlfriend - who isn´t artrelated at all - can tell me often enough when I was doing something wrong. You can have a good eye for perspective, anatomy whatever without knowing how to draw a straight line ... I myself don´t crititzise e.g. Anime or mangaoriented stuff because I dislike mostly the style and wouldn´t give a fair critic.

A competent critic is imo a founded one based on good observation and the verbal expression of it. This can be done by everyone and hasn´t necessarily been another artist. This even can help when working with customers. But you can do of course the other thing telling everyone I do what I do now take it or leave it (I call this the "fine arts approach") but you have very good marketing skills to get your stuff sold.

It´s always a matter of balance between your way and the reasons you´re handling a topic and the observation and feelings of the viewer, customer or whatever. It´s a kind of interaction and depends what you want to achieve.

To get back to the main-topic. I don´t think CA is getting "colder". I´m here since 09/02 and imo most of the problems come from getting bigger and less clear. I personally have mostly limited time and tend just to look at stuff from people I know or where I see there´s a discussion going on. I seldom have - like now - time to give a crit to every Newbie starting here even if it was the usual "practise more, get an anatomy book and here´s the link to Loomis". That´s a pity and supposedly not fair but I think to get responds on a forum like this you have to have at least minimal skills or an urge to learn that someone can feel like MCM, Oblio, Endregan, IwasInk or others - not "I just put out this crap in 20 min during maths, come on an give me responds. These is stuff I like to stop by and give the occasional comment and this is still a really good an heartfeld topic here on CA.

So no more ramblings and back to renovate my house, hope I made myself clear ;).

Fipse

[NOOSE]

Fipse- you made some solid points, and I dont want you to think that I view writers as having no artistic imput and the such...I just stated my point as a safe rule of thumb for those that cant find anything to say so they just guess and say what first comes to mind , and rather then give a missguided crit, its better to just comp what you do like and move on...Ive seen people make crits on someones anatomy when it was crystal clear they anatomy was taken from a photo ref and their was nothing wrong with it...Ive seen a crit giver tell someone that his shadows were "a little off angle" when he was criting a 3d modle overpaint!..some people mean well but dont realy know what they are talking about (like a 5 year old singing the blues)...

This doesnt pertain to everybody its just a few that I have noticed, I have seen some great art get crits that I didnt think were justified or helpfull, and on the other hand sugar coated loving doesnt help anyone develop if thats all he or she recieves...:)

[Presence]

I think that for one we owe all of the concept.org guys a huge debt of gratitude and thanx for even providing us this home away from home.

Second: I think it is both the artist's responsibility to get at those who are falling into the above mentioned crit catagory. If there are those who are making this place any less than the eden it has turned into then we need to phuking fo something about it.

The admins need to step up to the plate here and delete some of those posts. I know a crit is a crit but lets be honest, some are just assanine comments that pose little to no real creative help and they should be taken of that artist's post.

I have seen the same thing start to happen on Sijun.com and I just left, there were too many kids just throwing out explatives and comments, no crits. The last thing I want to see is the same thing happening here and it is both our responsibility as well as the admins to fix this.

We could do a member rating system, a vote deletion system where if enough people vote on a particular reply or post it is deleted by the system. I think we can nip this in the butt if we do something about it now rather than let this small but irritating issue keep on.