What's so hard about learning drawing/illustration?

[l33t fl33t]

I've been thinking about my experiences from playing piano and how I could apply them to learning art in order to learn faster.

As piano playing goes, there are several things a student must master - manual dexterity, pitch, memorization and the ability to analyze oneself while playing. The first three have clear criteria so you can rank yourself at any time. They also have fool-proof exercises that allow you to advance - in other words, the exercises are practically guaranteed to make you good at playing piano sooner or later. The issue here is not in "understanding" something but rather in developing the proper connections in your brain.

Compared to playing piano, drawing and illustration are a complete puzzlement to me. So, what would be the things one has to practice in order to improve at art?

P.S. Mind you, I'm not talking about anatomy practice or learning how to draw animals - these are parallels to musical scores and not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for the things that allow the person to learn anatomy or how to draw animals faster just as an experienced musician can learn a difficult score faster than a novice one.

[Bowlin]

Perhaps your referring to the basic elements and principles (http://www.alifetimeofcolor.com/study/g_art_elements.html)?

[Jazz]

Well, maybe like how the notes, harmonies, rhythms, etc. connect to you, working nicely and/or strangely in your mind as you listen, the most basic shapes and compositions, the forms, colours and other elements of art will connect to you in a visual way. You'll really get a feel for how body parts work together in harmony or how certain colours in a scene flow nicely or not at all.

Well, at least you MIGHT get that! Heh...I mean, I never delve into this stuff enough, but maybe some of what I said could hold true! Maybe after a while it'll feel...kinda natural to you. :)

But...it's still not gonna be so easy getting to those points. O_O You still need that strong dedication to keep working up to such a level, and then you sometimes fall! I know I do...I forgot all kinds of stuff. LOL!! But at least there will be things that you'll hold onto, to make trip upwards more manageable.

Now, I hope the ramble made sense!

[Pawkfox]

uhm... By drawing faster?
http://www.posemaniacs.com/ they got a tool called 30second drawing,
where they show a pose which you have to sketch in 30seconds.
Do that at least 10minutes a day for a month and you'll probably draw figures faster than before.

Seems to me like you're looking for a shortcut in becoming successful and some secret trick that will make you learn faster than anyone else.
I can't say there is any. Possibly by reading up on theories and all the facts behind art. Like the divine proportions. Would probably make you learn faster than one who didn't read all that stuff. Like me!

But I can say, a year ago a portrait would take me up to 6hours to just get it shaded right. Now I Can do it in 40minutes and it has nothing to do with some secret revealed to me through deep meditating. I just kept practicing.

Speed comes with time.

[Viridis]

The difficulty in drawing is learning to see (and draw) what's really there and not what you think you see. It's a process in observation. Learning to observe the basic lines of a form, then build it up with basic shapes, and gradually fill in contours and form and value to make a whole.

The difficulty in Illustration is to convey a concept clearly. I'm seeing problems with my peers in my Illo I class right now because they are doing drawings and they have a concept but they are not THINKING deeply enough about that concept. They don't consider what the best angle or composition would be to convey their message, they totally fail at light, their color is kind of flat, and they don't think about their characters. This is not everybody, but it's a majority. We had a character design project recently and... even the color sketch critique was kind of painful. Good illustration is trickier than it sounds, because it's all about conveying the idea, and there are a lot of factors that play into that.

So learn to draw very well first, then go in for illustration.

[l33t fl33t]

I'm having a hard time grasping some of your answers so I apologize for that.

A nice way to word the question would be - what makes an experienced illustrator better than a novice one? Is it knowledge or a certain "skill"?

Mind you, I'm using the word "skill" loosely here - I'm thinking of perfect pitch or good manual dexterity as a "skill" - basically something that is easy to understand but requires repetition to learn. On the other hand, how to read notes would be considered a "knowledge" where understanding is key.

@Pawkfox
I'm testing to see which elements of illustration/painting are "skills" and which are knowledge - or whether art is all skill or all knowledge. I am motivated by a desire to learn it faster, but the real reason is that I want to have a way to accurately judge progress in a certain field of painting/illustration. I'm hoping that just as music can be broken into elements to practice each part, so too, could art be.

[MiniGoth]

knowledge + practice = skill

[l33t fl33t]

knowledge + practice = skill

I think that we have our terms mixed up a bit. I'm trying to differentiate between things that need to be learned and things that need to be practiced.

Hence, reading notes is something that is learned while, say, playing 4 notes at once is something that has to be practiced.

[Black Spot]

And becoming a master requires both.

[l33t fl33t]

And becoming a master requires both.

Of course. The point is in improving the rate of learning, not skipping pieces.

[kool-ka-lang]

Dude, I play the piano too, and have been thinking about some of the same things, that parallel both. I'll post later though, going somewhere at this moment, but I'm also really interested in this subject, and it's vice-versa.

[HunterKiller_]

Learning the skill of music and drawing have always been pretty much the same in my head.

The only thing you can really do is to draw.
People can tell you this and that, over and over, but you'll never really understand what they're saying until you actually feel it for yourself.

Can you describe what a rose is to somebody who's never seen one?
Maybe, but they certainly wouldn't understand it.

[Samurai_em]

I've been thinking about this a lot too, and after a lot of research the answer seems to be short: The more you practice the faster you will improve.

I'm trying to differentiate between things that need to be learned and things that need to be practiced.

You need to learn the basics, then practice them.

That's pretty much it, there isn't any short cuts. Just hard work.

[kool-ka-lang]

They also have fool-proof exercises that allow you to advance - in other words, the exercises are practically guaranteed to make you good at playing piano sooner or later

I'm not the expert of this, but this is what I've been reading most of, in CA. If something in it is wrong, feel free to correct me.

The number one exercise people say over and over again, that absolutely gurantees to make you good at drawing, bar-none, is drawing and painting from life.

That's probably the key to what you're talking about, how to make things faster, and how to make yourself better, faster.

[Carl Dobsky]

The terminology is a little esoteric but I think I understand the question.

I would say that things like line weight, "turning form", brush work, proportion- these things need to be practiced. Anything considered to be "the basics" are like practicing scales. The more you work at it, the better you get at doing them and there is no other way besides practice to get better at them.

Things that require thought and study to understand would be things like composition and design, anatomy, perspective. I suppose I say this because they can be learned in a textbook fashion and someone can understand them without knowing how to draw. But the knowledge gained from them can inform
decisions that you make while drawing and make your work much more informed and intelligent.

[l33t fl33t]

Hell everyone, thanks for all the replies!

I'm starting to develop a beef with people who say "just practice" - that's like giving a novice's Saint-Saens' Danse Macabre and telling him to play it with both hands, using the pedal and paying attention to proper volume. The novice is most likely to give up after a few tries due to frustration.

On the other hand, a much more efficient way to practice would be to start off with only one hand, break difficult passages down and practice them a few notes at a time and then building up from that. I tried this myself and found that it worked wonders.

My logic is that breaking art (or, to word it better, making of a drawing/painting) into small, manageable pieces and then practicing each separately would yield results faster than doing it all at once.

The key element here is motivation - sure, some of you may enjoy practicing - unfortunately, I don't think most people share that enjoyment. Thus, improvement rests solely on motivation (for me, anyway) - thus, practice must be structured in a way that supports and furthers motivation, or, at the very least, doesn't damage it. Motivation rests solely on results.

I remember a project I had a few days ago (I'm a web programmer) - it was extremely annoying and had me swearing at several points. Yet I persisted. After several days, it was done and worked perfectly. I was extremely proud.

However, I now know that I would have never finished it had I not been absolutely sure it was possible (I saw it working on another site) and that I could convince myself without a shadow of a doubt that progress was being made.

So what I'm trying to do is break the process of making art into small, easily practicable pieces. That's why I need your help - I'm not as knowledgeable about how art is made to break the process down into pieces. Who'd like to outline their approach to making art (thumbnail, sketch, coloring, etc.)?

[badass]

l33t fl33t: I know you just said that you hate hearing 'just practice', but that is the answer your looking for.

Your comparing music to drawing and trying to find exact parallels, when in fact they are so different that its not that simple. Just because both music and drawing are forms of art, the similarity is not the same as, say football and baseball, which are both sports. Art is in fact such a broad term, some would say indefinable, that finding connections between all forms of art is not as easy as finding a connection between two sports or something along those lines.

Basically what I am trying to say is, mastering drawing requires an entirely different method than mastering music. To get good at drawing, all you do is draw, dont over-think. Unlike music, drawing is not a science. Draw stuff out of books, from observation, do quick thumbnails and work with different mediums (try charcoal, an hb pencil or something else... it really doesn't matter, just mix it up to work with different mediums drawing different things.)

I know it must be annoying to hear, but theres no such thing as a short cut or a way to speed up your improvement. The closest thing would be what
Pawkfox said, practice drawing quick sketches and youll get better at sketching quickly... but that is how it is with everything. If you practice drawing extremely detailed tigers, soon youll be able to draw them (and everything else) faster.

Good luck and remember: drawing is suppose to be fun, so if your worried about getting done quickly your already approaching it wrong.

[l33t fl33t]

Hey Buddha Bear, thanks for the hasty reply!

Truth be told, I always see the "just practice" answer as a kind of a sick joke. Like when you ask a musician how to get to Carnegie Hall and he says "Practice!".

I'm aware that I won't get where I want to be without practice, but practice alone is not going to get me there either, especially if I don't know how and what to practice and cut down on the time needed to get there. I know that I don't enjoy drawing/painting for the practice, I enjoy it because the end result fills me with pride and improves my self-esteem. Some would say that's a very bad (or sad) motivator, but all I can say is - it works. I can't force myself to love practicing and my motivation rests on results.

That being said, I'd really appreciate if you'd share the procedure you use to make a painting or drawing.

[badass]

Well, if you dont like to practice, your going to give up drawing before you can see improvement. Or at least thats what I have observed happen to people who get frustrated when they practice.

Your approaching drawing with the wrong mindset. Drawing, like everything in life, is about the journey not the destination. You shouldn't feel like you have to draw in order to have a completed drawing; you should be grateful that you can draw. If your constantly trying to finish, you wont have time to enjoy the smell of drawing, or that peacefully melodic sound of the pencil dancing on the surface of your paper.

Its not like your forcing yourself to draw - or it shouldn't be. You should be glad you have this moment, right now, without any obligations besides the need to enjoy what you are doing.

You need to love practice to ever master the craft; that is true of everything, even music.

[l33t fl33t]

Well, if you dont like to practice, your going to give up drawing before you can see improvement.

You hit the nail straight on the head there. Unless you love to practice, it's all about seeing results before motivation runs out. I also don't think it's possible to "teach" yourself to enjoy the process any more than you can "teach" yourself to love vanilla flavored ice cream instead of chocolate.

[Nrx]

Life drawing untill you can say what you see.

then start saying what you want to say even if you cant see it infront of you, but at this point you'll need to study anatomy, perspective lighting etc etc to make sure your doing things right.

but first of all you need to be able to communicate on paper and the best way (imo) is life work untill your at a level your happy with.

You wouldnt teach language by explaining how to construct complex sentances, you'd teach them how to say cat dog i want i dont want etc etc.

similar to music in that you don't start off trying to write your own music, you learn the fundamentals first then you apply those to your own work, only then you'll find your lacking in some areas so go study them harder.

Anyway, hope this makes sense and this is only my opinion

[JThao]

I'm currently studying anatomy. I started out by studying up on the skeletal stucture. Nothing too extreme. I don't plan on being a medical illustrator...at least not right now... :) I studied how the bones were connected. Do they move back and forth like a hinge? Or rotate like a ball bearing joint? What part of the skeletal structure moves and what doesn't?

Next step...study the muscles. Break it down. Start with what ever interest you. I chose to go with the head and arms first. The most important thing is to keep drawing that part even if you feel you have a good grasp on its anatomy. You will loose what you don't practice. Especially something you just learned. For example, I dedicated 3-4 hours a day if not more on studying the anatomy of the arms and body. Once I felt comfortable I moved on to another body part but I allowed 15-20 mins out of say 2 hours to still draw the arms and the torso. Eventually you'll get to a point where you're drawing the entire body. If you've really STUDIED the anatomy...visually seeing it in 3D instead of just mindlessly copying what you see...you will be able to draw the human figure from multiple angles. And I just mean angles not perspective. Drawing the figure in different perspectives requires an uderstanding of perspective. That's why I recommend you study both at the same time.

How long will this particular study take? Unfortunately only you can answer this question. I though I had the anatomy of the head down and realized I rushed through my studies so I am going back to restudy it. In my opinion you will never stop studying. This is just the beginning. Once you have a good grasp on perspective and anatomy you can move on to value, line, composition, and color.

And yes, sometimes studies can wear you down but don't stop. Keep your feet moving...or in this case your hands and fingers.

As Goldenboy would say...study,study,study,study,study!

Good Luck!

[l33t fl33t]

Guys, I appreciate the help but telling me what to study isn't the answer I'm looking for. I'm trying to understand the raw essence of creating art, the set of skills that allow you to draw in the first place, regardless of what the topic is.

[dcorc]

Observational skills - the ability to see what is actually out there, in terms of lengths and angles of edges, values and colour of surfaces/areas - and then compare with what you have put down on paper, spot where there are differences, and correct/refine them.

[kool-ka-lang]

are you talking about...being able to draw what's in your mind's eye? Being able to correctly Define form?

Exact exercises? Like those found in warm-up books? (scales, patterns, fingerings, etc.)

Or maybe what you're getting at is the core and basis of almost all art? Being able to convey the message?

Or are you looking for things like balance, contrast, proportion, pattern, rhythm, emphasis, unity, and variety, and those things?

I think that a lot of the questions that you've had have already been partly answered. Of breaking down the process, people have already given out suggestions - really good ones at that.

Want to make confident straight lines? Practice them. Put 2 dots on a piece of paper, and draw a line from one point to another, without ever having to lift the pencil. The trick is steady your hand so that it's smooth and confident, which translates on the paper - smooth and confident. Do a billion of these.

Granted, I know I'm not the best, but this, believe it or not, is a FAR cry from what I used to make - sketchy, bent, loose, bad lines.
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/kool-ka-lang/?action=view&current=19.jpg

Drawing from life really IS "weight lifting" for the eyes and hands. I guess it's our fault that we take that phrase for granted, because telling people to just "draw from life", without knowing what to look for, is the exact same analogy you've said,

giving a novice's Saint-Saens' Danse Macabre and telling him to play it with both hands, using the pedal and paying attention to proper volume

-crap, my laptop's on low batt, but your reply would be awesome

[serhc]

i'd say it's a combination of observational skill, and the mental and physical dexterity to replicate it. that, along with some ghostly mental faculty of beauty. i don't mean beauty in it's strictest sense, but rather aesthetics, which includes, well...ugly beauty. you know what i mean :P

i think if you want to break it down, it turns into the raw skills you've got to work on. through repetition with an engaged, learning mind, you pick up better, more effective ways to create combinations of line, color, and value that are pleasing to the eye. if you're making something representative, you need to know what makes it look convincing.

i'm not sure what you mean by the 'raw essence of creating art, the set of skills that allow you to draw in the first place, regardless of what the topic is.' do you mean trying to break drawing down into a suzuki-type method? it's a series of scaling exercises that help you develop fundamental skills. so, with drawing it's a similar situation. the exercises and focuses people are talking about are those fundamentals that help create a pleasing picture

[l33t fl33t]

I'm talking about representing what you see or imagine on paper in a certain style.

Studying anatomy won't help you if can't draw a muscle in the first place. I see drawing from life as the end all of it - you have to know how to draw and work under a tight time frame.

@serhc
I believe you've found what I'm looking for.

...and the mental and physical dexterity to replicate it

This deserves further interest - what exactly do you mean by "mental and physical dexterity" - I think you've found what I'm looking for, but the names don't sound quite right to me.

But yes, I'm basically thinking of the ability (or sum of abilities) to create some beautiful on the medium of paper (or digital canvas, as it were).

[Nrx]

if you just go draw from life you can figure it out for yourself :P

its hard for me to help you because i dont put it into words, i just draw something and go urgg.. the scales off again or the rendering is crap i cant say why i make these mistakes if i could isolate it it'd be amazing but instead ive just gotta keep trying.

[sodAp]

In my humble opinion, the problem about learning art is discipline. I notice how piano students are very disciplined when playing and practicing piano skills, while we art students are much more chaotic: we'll sketch this and that idea, we'll do some studies here and there, that finished painting, we'll switch mediums, we'll do a comission, won't meet deadlines, etc... Also, it's much harder to be disciplined about art because musical education is well structured and art education is not.

[l33t fl33t]

In my humble opinion, the problem about learning art is discipline. I notice how piano students are very disciplined when playing and practicing piano skills, while we art students are much more chaotic: we'll sketch this and that idea, we'll do some studies here and there, that finished painting, we'll switch mediums, we'll do a comission, won't meet deadlines, etc... Also, it's much harder to be disciplined about art because musical education is well structured and art education is not.

I'd argue the part about piano students being more disciplined :teeth:
Those that are are usually the sad result of draconian teachers, no fun at all.

That being said, I think that the visual arts (I don't think it's appropriate to refer to it as just art anymore) could do well with a little structuring. God knows that when I started reading it seemed like trying to find the light switch in a pitch black room and for a lot of stuff, it still is.

[Samurai_em]

If you want an easy way out, there isn't one. You can question the methods until you die of old age or you can spend those years creating art and studying art. Even if you just haphazardly practice this and that over the years you will see improvement. However you seem like you are very analytical and intelligent, if you just think about what your end goal is you can figure out a method that works for you. That is what I've done.

I need structure, or I get bored. I actually mounted a Dry Erase board on my wall, and spent some time thinking about my final goal, and what skills and experience I need to get there, writing them down, making a list of things to do. Then I broke those down into their core elements and began to study those. Basically I sort of broke it down into 3's. There are 3 core elements I need to study, I took those to the simplest form and each week I expanded each one. I'm in week 9 starting Monday, about week 6 or so I started to realize that one week is no longer enough time, so instead of following the plan I had, I started to just modify "as needed".

Although, there is no one technique you can practice that will allow you to draw "anything" because you need to learn a myriad of skills to get to that level, and most importantly (and this part is big) you need experience drawing certain elements which can only come with time, and well practice. Certain concepts won't even make sense to you until you try them, and others until you try them many times (at least that is how I am).

If there was a secret technique that you could practice for 10min a day and be able to draw awesome comic book covers and stuff, I'd know about it. The only secret is that you have to work hard, and it might take you years. When it comes down to it, if you don't enjoy the ride (the actual work involved with getting to the goal) you probably aren't going to get to your goal, because the feeling like you are wasting your time will make you quit before you get there. (Bobby Chiu says something about if you commit to just one year of working really hard, you will see a huge improvement in your art I recommend listening to his videos, especially the first ones. I got a lot of ideas about how off I was from him http://www.youtube.com/user/digitalbobert.)

I was like you, I hated that good artists would tell me "just draw all the time" it sound liked they were not telling me everything, because I did draw all the time and I sucked. What I discovered after many years, was that I wasn't actually working on the important stuff, I wasn't studying the basics, I wasn't studying from life, I was trying to draw things that I simply didn't have the skill or experience and knowledge to draw yet and getting frustrated at myself when the final result wasn't a masterpiece. It was like I was trying to complete in the Olympics without spending any time training at all and then getting upset when my performance was horrible.

I'm sorry I can only share with you my own experience. The guy who works hard and studies many different things, and keeps working to improve his art is always going to become a better artist than the guy who spends more time thinking about how to become a better artist than working on his art.

I hope that my post doesn't come across as negative, I'm just trying to share from my own experience with struggling trying to find the right path. In the end I found out that any path can work, if you keep moving toward your goal.

Although if you have a clear goal, you can define what skills and experience you need to get there, and work on that (at some point you'll discover you need to revise your plan, keep doing that, you should see progress).

[MyOrangeHat]

I see drawing from life as the end all of it - you have to know how to draw and work under a tight time frame.
Ah well there's the problem and the reason why you don't understand you've already gotten your answer in this thread. Drawing from life is the proper BEGINNING not ending. How are you supposed to learn what things look like in order to draw them if you aren't looking at them and trying to draw them??? It's like expecting to learn to play the violin with no frame of reference for what it's supposed to sound like be it instruction, sheet music or previously hear songs. And deciding to learn by just sawing away saving all that reference stuff for when you sawing the violin in half sounds respectable. You won't accomplish much like that.

You have to start with what you see when you draw. Because to learn to draw realistically you have to learn to analyze what you see...which is basically saying you have to do the "oh crap that just doesn't look right there, maybe if I made the eye bigger...nope that looks worse, maybe if I tilted the eye a bit more, okay better but not right. Maybe the other eye is off too...ohh yeah if I tilt that one too. But hmmm the chin doesn't look quite like the reference too point, okay make it a little less pointy, no pointier, nope less pointy, ahhh just right." And TADA! you're learning to draw. There's a few tricks to seeing angles with a straight edge and objects as reference to compare size but really that's pretty much the whole of it.

Studying anatomy won't help you if can't draw a muscle in the first place.
The point of studying anatomy is to learn to draw a muscle. As long as you are actively observing your reference material (book, picture, live model) and comparing it doesn't actually matter if you draw the most realistic looking muscle yet. I'm learning to play the violin right now, I've had six lessons. I squeak horribly every time I switch strings, does that mean I shouldn't practice my scales? No. It means I keep practicing my scales while trying not to put in the god-awful squeak between every few notes. Keep practicing anatomy and try to make it look better every time.

So the concept of having to already know how to draw to learn to draw or to get any benefit from study is just absurd. Do I look like I knew how to draw a muscle...or an arm...or hands...okay or anything when I drew this a couple years ago in figure drawing? Oh hell no! I was awful! I showed my own mother a drawing I did very proud with how it turned out and she couldn't even tell it was supposed to be a person!!(true story, look down at the first pic) But I learned a lot and by the end of the semester I could draw a convincing if not yet perfect figure.
The first picture is what I started with a couple weeks into that semester. And the second is what I was drawing seven weeks later. I had never had figure drawing before.

Really you just have to do it to learn. You can't learn to play the violin by thinking about it and looking at it sitting in the case and you can't learn to draw without picking up a pencil. Now go pick up a pencil and have at it! Really it's fun. :D

[l33t fl33t]

Guys, thanks for the input but as I already mentioned...

"just draw"

"have fun"

"just practice"

...simply doesn't do it for me. My record is 45 minutes with the average time being 30 seconds. That's how long it takes for me to get frustrated enough to just drop the pencil (or in my case, stylus) and go do something more productive. Drawing by itself is not a good motivator for me. I'm sure that it might be awesome for some of you but for me it simply doesn't work. Trying over and over again won't make a difference.

However, I know what DOES make a difference. Getting results. I've been known to persist in tasks into the wee hours of the night because I wanted to get something done. Hence, the only way I'm going to learn to draw is by breaking it into small pieces with clear goals and then persisting until I get results. However, these results can't come 5 weeks or months after I've started - there has to be firm, indisputable progress made on the first day. Mind you, I'm not looking to become a master over night. I just want to, at the end of the day, do something better than I did it the previous day - or at the very least have indisputable evidence that I'm getting there within a few days.

So the main reason for me breaking it up is to keep motivation and get the job done.

Now, I'm not trying to burden you with my own motivation problems (though it may look otherwise) - I'm telling you this in the hope that there won't be any more of the aforementioned canned replies. Also, I REALLY appreciate the time and effort you put into this discussion, it has really gotten the juices flowing.

[waranghira]

realizing that you're no good

[Hyskoa]

Finding the red pill while avoiding any blue pills.

[MyOrangeHat]

My record is 45 minutes with the average time being 30 seconds. That's how long it takes for me to get frustrated enough to just drop the pencil (or in my case, stylus) and go do something more productive.

Just sounds like either 1] you don't like to draw OR the more likely 2] you aren't actually willing to put in work to get better. Because 30 seconds is definitely not long enough to improve and honestly 45 minutes on a single drawing isn't super long. Though as a beginner you should be able to accomplish something in 45 minutes.


Drawing by itself is not a good motivator for me.
You've found your answer right here. Doesn't sound like you like to draw sound like you just like accomplishment in general. Why force yourself to do something you don't like? Go learn to play another instrument if that's what does it for you. No use torturing yourself.


I'm sure that it might be awesome for some of you but for me it simply doesn't work. Trying over and over again won't make a difference.
It will in fact. You're just not willing to do it. Which is fine, but it doesn't make what everyone has told you untrue.

[Jazz]

Not sure if you're done with this or not l33t. Just wondering if you might know when a finished piece seems successful. Sometimes a piece might be finished and it's STILL not a success for you.

Maybe little successes for the little steps you take might help more than seeing the full success. :) Of course, I see you said that doing it over and over won't help. But you'll never know if it worked if you only do the practice once or twice. Really, once you do one step enough you WILL be able to see a difference, work with an issue, and send it to the next level.

[l33t fl33t]

Maybe little successes for the little steps you take might help more than seeing the full success. :) Of course, I see you said that doing it over and over won't help. But you'll never know if it worked if you only do the practice once or twice. Really, once you do one step enough you WILL be able to see a difference, work with an issue, and send it to the next level.

That's exactly what I mean - small successes. The point behind breaking the process down is to get to the level where you can practice something and at the end of practice be sure that you've mastered it - that builds confidence.

Going by the idea that humans are motivated by positive results (being confident is a positive result) you're more likely to want to continue said action, or in other - be motivated to practice more.

Hence, breaking the whole process down (today I'm going to master drawing straight horizontal lines/how to draw clouds/how to create a simple 3d form on a flat surface/whatever) seems like an excellent way of eating the elephant that is painting.

[Pawkfox]

Feng Zhu had a bonus video on one of his DVD's where he showed what he does to practice drawing in general.
His main technique is "ghosting"

But all are as important;
*Don't draw with your wrist, use your whole arm.
This doesn't mean you should stop moving your wrist, it only means you should use your whole arm for help in making better lines. Difference is noticed best when drawing circles and straight lines. When using your wrist it looks really odd or doesn't come out the way you want but if you use your whole arm you can more accurately draw most things.
*When drawing a straight line, or even a slightly curved one.
Put a dot at the beginning and at the end of that line. Then GHOST the line.
Meaning, put down the dots and move your pen above the paper back and forth between these dots until you are certain that you have a solid movement and line going on, then place your tip on the paper and draw. Don't stop ghosting and then draw, just move back and forth over and over while gradually moving closer to the paper.
*Use light pressure when sketching.
*Ghost as many things as you think is necessary.
Circles! Same as with lines, ghost the circle until you think you're making a solid circle movement and put it on paper or digital canvas
Find other ways to hold your pencil. You don't have to hold it as if you were writing.

I've noticed something else about learning to draw.
Many who are just beginning to paint or draw say they have TONS of ideas they want to draw but can't because they aren't good enough.
But as you get better those ideas fade and suddenly you're empty and just draw studies all day because you don't know what to draw.

How does one develop imagination?

[Elwell]

Guys, thanks for the input but as I already mentioned...

"just draw"

"have fun"

"just practice"

...simply doesn't do it for me. My record is 45 minutes with the average time being 30 seconds. That's how long it takes for me to get frustrated enough to just drop the pencil (or in my case, stylus) and go do something more productive. Drawing by itself is not a good motivator for me. I'm sure that it might be awesome for some of you but for me it simply doesn't work. Trying over and over again won't make a difference.


Oh well.

[l33t fl33t]

@Pawkfox
See, that's the kind of practical exercises and information I was looking for!

[Pawkfox]

@Pawkfox
See, that's the kind of practical exercises and information I was looking for!

Haha, wow. I helped someone.

[Anid Maro]

Oh, well if you were looking for the sort of stuff Pawkfox mentioned, then you'll want to make liberal use of the search function.

Frankly in my experience, the community here in general expects that these things are already known. That doesn't mean it's never discussed, but rather that you won't see it often. Good news is that this site's been around for something like six years (at least, that's how old I've seen posts go back), so even something seldom discussed will have a decent share of posts.

Here's a few other gems off the top of my head.

- Draw large. This ties into drawing with the arm instead of wrist (you do that because you want to work large). Firstly working large allows you more room to fill in the details you observe (or notice large swaths of blank space because you didn't observe). Secondly it's more forgiving towards a less than perfect dexterity, in that if your hand twitches a little when you draw large it'll be practically invisible whereas in a small drawing said twitch might very well ruin your drawing.

- Practice the Value Scale. Art is generally speaking an arrangement of contrasts. Working in monochrome (e.g. pencil, charcoal) makes this particularly evident. Learning how to make a consistant value scale will help you apply a full range of values in your drawings.

- Life Drawing. Life Painting. Life... Life... LIFE! Yes, the dreaded "life drawing". It is incredibly important because one of the greatest hurdles is learning how to represent a 3D object/scene on a 2D plane. Working from life (as opposed to photos, which are already a 2D plane) will at best make you go through the work of thoroughly analyzing your subject and understanding why it looks how it looks and putting that down on paper, or at worst teach through trial and error what doesn't work. If you want a guaranteed exercise that will make you a good artist "sooner or later", this is it.

- Sketch Lightly. I know, Pawkfox said it already, but it bears repeating. With exceptions for the bizzarely talented (like Michaelangelo), artists start with a loose "sketch" that gets tightened up over time into the final drawing/painting/image. It doesn't matter how sketchy or loose or just plain crappy that initial sketch looks so long as the final lines/strokes cover it up. However if you can't erase that sketch because you drew with a heavy hand... well then that becomes a problem.

- "Mirror" your drawing. You'll be suprised at the lengths your eyes and brain will go to make something look "right", even if it's not. If you're working digitally, use the "flip canvas horizontally" option. If you're working on paper, flip it over and hold it to a light. If you're working on a painting or with a similarly opaque medium/canvas, then drag it to your bathroom and look at it through the mirror. Similarly related is working with an upside down reference, it'll force you into "drawing what you see" instead of "drawing what you think you see".

- Start small. I don't mean the literal scale, but rather the subject matter. It's pretty easy to screw up the human form royally; but an apple, in contrast, is an easy mark for a feeling of accomplishment.

- Use the search function and local libraries. 2D design, barque cast drawings, color theory, charioscuro, composition, construction, line weight, negative space, edges, spot blacks, tangents, et cetera. You may have to do some of your own footwork, but that doesn't mean you have to reinvent the wheel. :)

[Black Spot]

Train your eyes to see what is there not what you think should be there. It takes time to train your mind as well as the hand.

[Samurai_em]

I think Ewell said it best in another thread you started:

If you don't enjoy the process as much as, or even more than, the results, then you'll never be successful. Unfortunately, I don't know if there's any way to learn how to love something.

[J Wilson]

My logic is that breaking art (or, to word it better, making of a drawing/painting) into small, manageable pieces and then practicing each separately would yield results faster than doing it all at once.

I don't practice music at all, so I have a hard time believing you can exactly attack them both the same way. However, if I understand you request correctly, I'd say what you need to practice and really hone is just observation. Learn to be able to relate forms and values to other forms and values. If you can accurrately judge things relative to each other, then other things should be easier to portray, even if you still need to learn and practice much more to really understand it.

Also, I have no idea how you learn music, so this may or may not apply, but art tends to be easiest to learn working from the general to the specific. Get the big shapes/tones down, then refine in many passes getting more and more detailed/specific as you go.

Learning the over all process and practicing your observation skills non stop, and you'll have the foundation needed to start attacking other more knowledge based skills like anatomy, perspective, design etc.

[Animation Idiot]

Guys, thanks for the input but as I already mentioned...

"just draw"

"have fun"

"just practice"

...simply doesn't do it for me. My record is 45 minutes with the average time being 30 seconds. That's how long it takes for me to get frustrated enough to just drop the pencil (or in my case, stylus) and go do something more productive. Drawing by itself is not a good motivator for me. I'm sure that it might be awesome for some of you but for me it simply doesn't work. Trying over and over again won't make a difference.

However, I know what DOES make a difference. Getting results. I've been known to persist in tasks into the wee hours of the night because I wanted to get something done. Hence, the only way I'm going to learn to draw is by breaking it into small pieces with clear goals and then persisting until I get results. However, these results can't come 5 weeks or months after I've started - there has to be firm, indisputable progress made on the first day. Mind you, I'm not looking to become a master over night. I just want to, at the end of the day, do something better than I did it the previous day - or at the very least have indisputable evidence that I'm getting there within a few days.

So the main reason for me breaking it up is to keep motivation and get the job done.

Now, I'm not trying to burden you with my own motivation problems (though it may look otherwise) - I'm telling you this in the hope that there won't be any more of the aforementioned canned replies. Also, I REALLY appreciate the time and effort you put into this discussion, it has really gotten the juices flowing.

No wonder you don't see any progress. You're so hung up on 'results' but you're not going to get them without putting in the effort first - lazy lazy lazy. The fact of the matter is that you're going to do thousands and thousands of bad drawings until you get good. That's just the way it works, for pretty much everyone except the lucky gifted savants - and even they have their own struggles.

No one can help you unless you're willing to put in the work. Shoot for a minimum of 6 hours a day of drawing (with 10-15 minute breaks every hour of course) or else you're only kidding yourself. If you can't fight the urge to get frustrated and give up, then you might as well stop since you're never going to make it without effort.

If you want focused exercise subjects to draw for your 6-hour practice sessions there are plentiful tutorials available on this very forum for fundamentals and life-drawing that have already been mentioned before in this thread. People here can suggest areas you need to focus on for your practice if you only ask.

If you WANT to learn how to draw, then STOP your self-defeating whining right now and instead ask people here 'what can I do to improve my studying habits'? Because there are many people here who can tell you EXACTLY what you need to be studying and doing to help yourself get good, and terrible anti-learning attitudes like 'trying over and over again won't make a difference' is poison to the learning process...because LEARNING IS TRYING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

[alesoun]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but it seems to me that for music the key is probably learning to hear and distinguish between notes and rythms, so that you hear and recognise a pattern.

In art, the equivalent might be to learn to look and see properly. 4 or 12 or 15 colours in a red brick wall, a myriad of shapes, a tangle of textures.

The first step in any learning curve is to drink in the experience and try to understand that. If you do that you might progress onto 5 and 6 hour drawings; maybe even more....

Or, like me, you might never progress beyond "Chopsticks". If it doesn't fire you up to learn more.... *sigh*.... Chopsticks.....

[BubbaGump]

Hey Buddha Bear, thanks for the hasty reply!

Truth be told, I always see the "just practice" answer as a kind of a sick joke. Like when you ask a musician how to get to Carnegie Hall and he says "Practice!".

I'm aware that I won't get where I want to be without practice, but practice alone is not going to get me there either, especially if I don't know how and what to practice and cut down on the time needed to get there. I know that I don't enjoy drawing/painting for the practice, I enjoy it because the end result fills me with pride and improves my self-esteem. Some would say that's a very bad (or sad) motivator, but all I can say is - it works. I can't force myself to love practicing and my motivation rests on results.

That being said, I'd really appreciate if you'd share the procedure you use to make a painting or drawing.

You're either lazy or drawing isn't for you. It might be both.

You're lazy because you're looking for shortcuts. There are no shortcuts. PRACTICE can get you there. That's how EVERYONE who is successful got there. You won't believe it because you're lazy. It's not some formula in the frontal lobe or any of that BS. FUCK. Practice is all it fucking takes.

You have to love practicing. You have to love drawing. You have to love your studies. You can't wait for the end result. It seems like you can't have fun while you're drawing. Drawing isn't for you. And to the people trying to give l33tfl33t advice, I'd just say give up. It seems like he's more concerned with shortcuts than actually learning.

When people say artists either have it or they don't, that's absolutely 100% true. But "it" isn't some natural talent. "It" is motivation. You don't want to hear "fun" or "practice" or "hard work" but that's all you're gonna fucking hear from me because it's the damn truth. Your pompous, elitist, "why can't it be like music" attitude isn't gonna get you anywhere. You simply don't have "it."

[l33t fl33t]

@BubbaGump & Animation Idiot
I sense some animosity in you, if I am the reason, please accept my apologies.

I would ask of you to keep an open mind about what I'm going to say now - if you can't, please skip my post over as it will be a waste of time for you.




Imagine two situations:

1) A person practices something because he enjoys it.
2) A person forces himself to practice something he feels neutral towards or hates.

Now, objectively, which one would get farther, sooner? I'd bet that the one who enjoys it. You can have an awesome willpower, but I really doubt that it will hold until the wee hours of the night. On the other hand, with an enjoyable activity, time flies and you don't even notice that it's past midnight.

Now, I said I don't like art for itself. That's true. I used to beat myself over it and trying to find out how to love art. [short digression] Then I remembered that I didn't take up music because I liked it, I took it up because of jealousy. I was jealous of a good friend. Sure, some of you may say that's a very bad motivator. I'd agree today but not for the reason you think. Yet that very same motivator got me not just practicing, but cashing out money for tuition. Would I get to where I am now without practicing? Surely not. Would I get here if I had no reason to do it? Absolutely not. [end digression]

I mentioned that art itself isn't a good motivator for me - but I still have a reason to get up in the morning, sit at my synth and practice. Do I enjoy the practice or music as much? No, not really. I enjoy the feeling of accomplishment, the fact that from today onward I know another song and that I learned it via ear, not by score sheets.

Yes, you are right - motivation is everything. But just because I'm not motivated by art or doodling doesn't mean that I shouldn't try to motivate myself in other ways. I think it's rather cruel to say "art isn't for you" just because we don't share the same reason for doing it.

What am I trying to get at here?

I'm trying to find a way that works for me, a way of braking it all down so that I can say "From today onward, I know how to render a sphere/paint clouds..." and that it's indisputable that I can.

I'm not disputing that practice is the way to go - but practice alone won't make a difference - nobody is going to become a master pianist if the teacher just seats them at the piano and tells him to practice. Practicing with a purpose and a clear goal, however, is bound to bring results.

EDIT: Thanks to all of you who offered your advice, I really appreciate it!

[Animation Idiot]

@BubbaGump & Animation Idiot
I sense some animosity in you, if I am the reason, please accept my apologies.

It's not you personally, it's your attitude, dude. When you ask people to help you and then shut down yourself from their advice there's nothing they can do to help. I'm just explaining the why and how in a last-ditch attempt to get through to you in the off chance it might work - whereas pros like Elwell will see your tripe for the transparent nonsense it is and realize there's nothing they can do to help someone who sabotages any advice they receive with a terrible idea about work ethic and motivation. What I'm saying is what you do with the advice here is up to you and you alone.

As has been pointed out numerous times, this forum provides numerous tutorials on learning the fundamentals of drawing. Check the education subforums in particular. Instead of bemoaning your lack of motivation here, try going there and asking questions about what you can and should study.

I mentioned that art itself isn't a good motivator for me - but I still have a reason to get up in the morning, sit at my synth and practice. Do I enjoy the practice or music as much? No, not really. I enjoy the feeling of accomplishment, the fact that from today onward I know another song and that I learned it via ear, not by score sheets.

Then you're looking to be a hobbyist, not a serious-student/professional, and this is probably the wrong forum for you. You would be better off with paint by numbers kits than continually refusing to swallow the advice here because you can't get a brain buzz every single time you sit down at a sketch pad.

[l33t fl33t]

When you ask people to help you and then shut down yourself from their advice there's nothing they can do to help.

No, see, that's not the idea I wanted to convey. I really do appreciate people's replies. I also respect the opinions as coming from experienced authorities. However, when I said I don't want to hear any more "practice or just enjoy it" replies was because those are not the answers I'm looking for and it's a waste of time for the people posting them.

Yes I'm downright aware that nobody gets anywhere without practice. But just saying practice and have fun is the equivalent of putting a 8 year old in a car and saying "practice" and "have fun". There's no sense of direction or purpose to it, just a canned "if there's a problem, practice is the answer" routine. Restating what I already know (that becoming a great artist means a lot of practice) isn't helping much. On the other hand, concrete advice like the one Pawkfox and some of the others gave IS. In fact, such advice is INVALUABLE.


I'm just explaining the why and how in a last-ditch attempt to get through to you in the off chance it might work - whereas pros like Elwell will see your tripe for the transparent nonsense it is and realize there's nothing they can do to help someone who sabotages any advice they receive with a terrible idea about work ethic and motivation.

I'd really appreciate if you'd not call it "transparent nonsense". I think that finding motivation is the biggest and most important part of the whole process.

Instead of bemoaning your lack of motivation here, try going there and asking questions about what you can and should study.

If it seemed like I was bemoaning, I apologize - I was desperately trying to find a solution to the problem. Bitching and whining was never my intention and I do hate if it came off that way.

[Black Spot]

Well I’m going to bitch and moan that you can learn music by ear. My husband does the same thing and it drives me mad as I don’t have that kind of ear. Once I learnt a piece that he thought was pre-programmed into the piano and I felt smug, but it is not the same as sitting down and playing whatever is on the radio as he can.

Art is the same, some bits you can learn by hard work while other bits elude you. Drawing is like transposing music up or down, and playing it in a completely different tempo. Until you have the ear/eye and put in the practice, you’re going to sound like a pub piano player knowing only a few chords.

[Reign]

I'm really surprised at all the hostility to the OP's question. I don't think he is lazy (being able to practice in spite of oneself is the opposite of lazy in my book) or that he looks for "shortcuts". I just think that he, when faced with an option to learn something, wants to train in the most effective way. Which is a sensible and natural thing to desire. You can pump weights all day long, but if you don't know about the right sets, repetitions and nutritions you are probably going nowhere.

Now, I don't think it is possible to find any shortcut here, but I do think it is possible to lost your way in the Wastelands of Not Knowing What to Actually Do.

Leet fleet, don't get discouraged. There is plenty of information on effective learning of things on this site. Lurk and read, post pictures, ask for specific help.
When you want to improve in some specific area just write "shaking line" or whatever your problem is in the search function and most likely than not you will find interesting exercises to improve. All in all its a great place to learn, and by incorporating advices from various threads you will certainly build yourself a nice learning shedule.

[wickeddiana]

Like someone had mentioned earlier, you should define some clearly focused goals, both short-term and long term, that will help you to achieve what you want. And for each practice session, define at least one goal you would like to accomplish--just as long as it's realistic and simple. For instance, if you are studying anatomy, one day you can study one aspect of the human figure. Or you can practice gesture. Isolate one idea and practice that idea until you master it before moving on to your next objective.

That is how I studied and it has worked for me.

The point is, it is up to you to decide what your goals are and what you really want out of art. Do you want to get good a figure drawing, drawing landscapes, animals, realistically or very stylized, conceptual or literal?

First define what it is you want, than figure out the steps to get there. Be as specific as possible. "I want to get better at art", is too vague. Something more specific would be learning human anatomy or character designs.
It will be much easier for you to come up with an effective method that works once you have a very clear objective.

Hope this helped.

[Fjooner]

I'm both a mediocre piano player and painter, but the most important parallel I see between the two is composition. Both overall and micro. - Not to play every note as hard as the next, to add inn suggestive details, enhance the areas that you want the viewer/listener to pay attention to, etc.

[Medelo]

TO the OP: You know, I was in your position a while ago. I would only draw the things I already (thought) I knew how to draw because I wanted that brain buzz, that feeling of accomplishment, so I can look back at it and go "wow, I'm awesome, I actually did that" (a lot of it was anime too, lol). But eventually I just realized how much I was limiting myself and how much I just wanted to know more. Maybe it's my personality but I just couldn't stand that there was so much more out there that I couldn't reach because I just wanted that happy feeling that I did something awesome on paper.

Then I went back to life drawing classes and this time I went back with the attitude that I really, really, wanted to learn. I didn't detest being made to 'draw from life' because this time I was desperate for knowledge (I didn't really like life drawing classes my freshman year because they never really came out right so I didn't get that feeling of accomplishment). So this time I took two life drawing classes a week for 12 hours.

The biggest thing, for me, was not only just the practice but also the discipline and mindset change that I went through. For one thing, I stopped being so hung up on that "accomplishment" factor. I had to draw 6 hours straight in a day, sometimes with other classes too, and it forced me out of thinking too much about my work. I stopped having thoughts like "is it going to look really really good so I can put it on my walls".

After a while I stopped caring if I was going to get that buzz at the end of it and just concentrated on working. And after even more time the drawing process began to be 'quiet' in my mind. Instead of thinking if it would be perfect it began to be more like meditating, just going through the routine of measuring, sighting, putting marks on paper, discovering a new way of handling the pencil, becoming truly interested in my fellow students' work other than "pfft I could have done that too". What was once a struggle to produce something 'amazing' became just peaceful. But, if I had never taken those classes and didn't HAVE the experience of just being made to draw 6 hours straight a day I would never have reached this 'quietness' in my art-making. Now I am very happy with my work -- it is not the best, I am not yet a professional. But I am happy and art is my escape now.

So, my conclusion is that the hardest thing about drawing and illustration is simply the discipline. Maybe for some people (like me, and you) the discipline is to first get to that state of mind where you can actually start to progress.

[BlackCloud]

The trick to hasty learning is to utilize the minds around you as you take your journey... No Man Is An Island.


There is an exact similarity in learning art and Music and I believe Jimi Hendrix may be your brick between the eyes, er not. Do some legwork on your own and read his Wiki. You are asking a question and insanely refuting the answers saying that you don't like calling Black Black, and instead decide to tell everyone else it is called something else, like worthless. Read how Jimi Hendrix learnt to be the legend that he became. He tried things out, saw what happened, stored that knowledge permanently in his memory - by experiencing the processes (practice and watching)- he witnessed others using. He wasn't magical, he simply was interested in what sounds can come out of banging crap around and plucking wires with teeth (after he saw other artists doing it.)

The fastest way to learn is right under your nose. Draw something, post it up here on CA in the critique threads and do as you are instructed by the people that have what you want - L33T Skillz! When you post let them know your intent for the picture so they know what you were trying to do. If you have a good personality and they feel their time is not lost on you then you to can be the Jimi Hendrix of art.

Set your goals easier so frustration wont continue to plague you. Art will alter your entire life once you can be friends with it. Sometimes I like to look at Charlie Brown and draw him and that may be a good place for you for now so you can at least get some damn confidence to carry you further.

It was awesome that mentioned earlier were techniques such as drawing loosely and other technical aspects to art, but there are so many ways to start an art piece that there are too many answers for you unless we funnel your thoughts to a digestible size.

In summary - no particular order, just all of the below - there is more, but you don't need to be overwhelmed until you can live with these suggestions. This is how to learn lightning fast... Though lightning fast is 5-7 years for most I have encountered.

1) Watch others work using available tools such as You Tube or getting into a class. I threw hella tons of parties and artists would just have fun drawing and sharing techniques, the programmers just got drunk lol.

2) always have a small sketchpad or notepad with you and draw when you are inspired by anything "Cool" or easy for you to understand (it will get better on it's own)

3) Draw simple things that make people around you smile. Do you have anyone around you that likes cartoon characters?

4) The answers are already in your own head - listen to them. For instance have you ever thought that maybe you should start off at art the same way we teach children the basics of art? Maybe begin by playing with clay, making simple things like airplanes or a simple flower (super sculpty is awesome)

5) Once you are finally enjoying art, then you'll instinctively begin to draw and create all kinds of things as well as able to be patient enough to listen to answers because you will be genuinely interested.

I have attended schools, but am almost completely self taught like most others here and this is a general way I did it. I have been learning art for 9 years after I injured myself and could no longer play sports simply by doing those simple steps. I have a long ways to go till I feel I am at a decent level, but it has opened doors like no buddies business. Plus all my students have jobs in the industry.

There ya go. Now be like Jimi and become Experienced

[BlackCloud]

i like your response DDream

[BlackCloud]

oh yeah.. What kind of art do you want to make?

[Sorknes]

People answering in this thread has given you all the answers you can possibly look for, and then some. Even different approaches and different ways.

There is no A-Z on how to learn to draw, it works different for everyone

What you CAN do is what everybody has said: Do it in portions. Learn how things look from drawing from life. Learn how muscles and body works and looks by practising anatomy. You start with cubes and balls, and try to get those right. Then you put light on them and try to get it right. When you're a pro, you're STILL drawing those cubes and balls and whatnot, you're just putting them together with what you've learnt from drawing from life and anatomy and whatever else you've studied.

How to practise a scale? You put a pear in front of you. Then you draw it. Then you put an apple in front of you. You draw that too. When you've done that a few times, you put the apple and the pear together in front of you. And you draw it. As you progress, you put in grapes and bananas. That's your scales. And it has to be done over and over again. With small objects, big objects, live objects and dead objects. While doing these "scales" your eyes will learn how to see, and you might understand what we're all talking about here.

You say you don't want to come through as whining and moaning, but that is what you're coming through as right now, I'm sorry. There's some awsome answers in here, but you don't seem to understand them, not of lack of intelligence or reading skills, but because you don't want to.

If you don't like to draw, if you don't want to put in hours looking at people at the street trying to get what's on paper looking like them, or looking at apples at a table, drawing is not for you. If you get bored, you don't see what good advice these people has given you, then keep to your piano or find something else to learn. Simple as that. Nobody that doesn't really like to draw will be good at it. It's artistic, but it's also a craftmanship.

I played the piano as well. As well as clarinet, gitar, etc... The only thing I ever took any lessons in was clarinet. That's the instrument I play the worst. Know why? Because I had to apply to other peoples ways of learning instead of just going by ear. But I loved playing the piano at one point, and just by loving it, sitting down with it, listening to music and trying to reproduce it - I got better. I guess it's the wrong way of doing it - but I did it the painter way. I tried to reproduce what I could already hear, when drawing I try to reproduce what I've seen.

If you really want to draw parallells from the music world into the painter world, I'd tell you to pick a composer instead of a piano player. A composer puts what he's already heard into new and wonderful pieces, a master painter puts what he's seen into new and wonderful pieces.

[vardoburrito]

Edit: Sorry, but I sometimes just post without reading all the replies, like I'm the
one and only person that can see the reply button. I've basically dumbed all the replies into
how I see it in my head, and to be frank, their replies are better. Behehehe.
Although I do believe, the cube, sphere, cylinders rendered in different angles, and lighting conditions
are the basic building blocks before anatomy/colour/composition/and all that bang.



What's so hard about learning drawing/illustration?
I'm self taught, but for myself, it's rendering the values.

I'm not a musician myself, but if I can relate to your specific areas, these would be it for me, but maybe not for you.


Manual dexterity -
be able to perfectly do;
straight lines
elipses
arches

Pitch
Being able to block out values. Dark and lights before any colours.

Memorization
Are these correct;
straight lines
arches
elipses
value


Exercise 1:
Being able to render out a cube, a ball, a triangle, a taurus, and cylinder, in all angles with correct VALUES.
Move the light on the other side, and see if you can train your brain to render the same angles.



// End note
That's the most basic exercise I can provide you. Next step would be exploration/knowledge.
Adding off-keys, beats and rhythm. Balance and composition.

[l33t fl33t]

@DDream
See, there's a beautiful element of this "personal reward" system - it pushes you forward. An example - when you were 5 making your own bed filled you with pride and accomplishment - however, at 20 years of age, you no longer feel proud that you've made your own bed - it's taken for granted and you receive no sense of accomplishment from it.

I reckon it's same with art - drawing straight lines might give you the buzz at first but once you master it, there won't be a buzz anymore and if you still want the feeling, you'll need to move to more complex things, such as blocking in forms. In that way, it keeps you moving constantly upward. Of course, the downside is that there might be other things that do the same for less effort.

@BlackCloud
oh yeah.. What kind of art do you want to make?
My current medium-term goal is to master the anime style because I need it for a project. Long term plans probably include some mechanical drawings, landscape, *maybe* characters.


@Sorknes
I don't want to come off as dishing the answers - some of them, probably most of them, I really appreciate and find very helpful to me. But when someone, especially a professional, says "just practice" I can't help but cringe. Why? Because that's an obvious and redundant answer. Anyone could tell me that getting better at something requires practice. Heck, I knew that before I even came here. I feel like he's pulling my leg.

As far as doing art only because you love it, I'd disagree. I find it better to use some other motivation rather than not doing it at all, or in other words, just because I don't get a kick from doing it doesn't mean that I shouldn't try art. I think that applies to a lot of other people who don't love art for itself, but would still like to learn it. I feel it's unfair to shut them off from art just because their motivation differs. Naturally, that makes the "just enjoy it" suggestion redundant.

[crabbyclem]

not sure if anyone mentioned this:

Check out Betty Edwards: drawing from the left side of the brain.

Classic. It has good exercises, clear goals and can be done by an absolute beginner. It comes with before/after examples of drawings by people with kindergarten-level skills.

It's weird, you can feel that mind state shift that she describes when you get into that left-brain zone. If you've gone through that book you probably know what I'm talking about.

[CCThrom]

Clem... RIGHT brain! Heh, left brain does enough damage to our drawings already.

L33t... quick question for you, if a professional musician told you "practice your scales more" would you cringe at that, or would you just knuckle down and do it, knowing that after a few more hours or days or whatever the scales would sound better?

[l33t fl33t]

L33t... quick question for you, if a professional musician told you "practice your scales more" would you cringe at that, or would you just knuckle down and do it, knowing that after a few more hours or days or whatever the scales would sound better?

I'd seriously question said person's professionalism. Why? Because you can get the same benefit and more by learning new songs using certain techniques. Hence, scales become redundant. Of course, most, if not all, academy professors would disagree with me on that, and likely tie me to a stake.

My point is - scales are merely a means to an end and not a very good means by most measures.

[BlackMita]

You should check out some of these links to Glenn Vilppu's lessons. He breaks a lot of drawing down into simple procedures and tools. It helped me to get better a little more quickly. As true as the advice " Draw, draw, draw, until your fingers bleed!" is, it didn't do much to help me over the major humps either.

http://blogschmlog.blogspot.com/2007/03/figure-drawing-resource-5-glenn-vilppu.html

He goes about drawing from the general to specific. Most of drawing is pretty much working in "layers". Each layer should communicate something quite specific, and as a whole, this layering results in a good drawing. Once you get the hang of that, it's mostly about fighting habits like letting your mind/hand wander, or remembering to looking up at what your drawing more than at your paper. Leaving nothing to ambiguity - knowing why you set something down from study (extensive anatomy, photo-realistic lighting, etc) put off until you can make your hand do what you ask of it. Perspective though you can never learn to soon.

It seems like an A-Z approach, but it really isn't, because with experience you have to decide which layers/methods to use best, and in what order, for whatever your drawing. That only comes with experience (drawing A LOT from life) Just practise one method at a time, until you want to try another, and get comfortable using one after another, on the same drawing. And make use of the gems already posted (eg: ghosting, use whole arm, etc).

If methods is too vague, google stuff like 'gesture', 'contour', 'construction', 'massing' to get a better idea.

[nicehighs]

ok, when I played the piano I improved the dexterity in my fingers by practicing scales a lot! I think you need to train your fingers to be faster and more precise like hitting the keys you want to hit without hitting the ones next to it (you know what I mean). So with drawing I think you should train your arm to become a machine, practice hitting dots and making perfect ellipses and perfect squares making perfect arches from dot to dot and so on. Once you are good at making straight lines and curves you can start learning theory such as extending a square in space and repeating and ellipse inside that square. If you cant draw a straight line or draw circles inside of boxes you're gonna be in trouble with practicing perspective. Then you can start playing with shapes and forms because you have trained your arm to what you want it to. As an artist I think your number one goal should be mastering form. You can achieve form in many ways by using value or line or a combination of both. I thing you should become good at "wire framing and contouring objects before you mess with value (just makes since to me) that way you can see things three dimensionally and know where to light your objects based on its shape. I suck right now because I was letting photoshop and painter and all those pretty colors suck me in before I was ready. I didn't train my arm and pay attention to shapes and forms like I should have so basically my journey is staring now. Don't let this happen to you. I just thank god that I am young. I approached piano playing the right way and I don't know why I thought "drawing" was different. Drawing is a skill, its not something you can cut shortcuts with just like everything else. It takes time and if you approach it in the proper way you'll be fine I promise. Another thing, drawing is not enough, I get fucking pissed off when people tell you this lie. Then they say draw from life, ok better but still too damn vauge. You need to pay attention to the "design" and "patterns" that nature has. Repeating shapes in life and such that's how you can tell a willow tree from another tree. If nature does this then use this knowledge to create a weird ass tree but at the same time repeat it throughout your drawing for a better design and or interesting composition. Think about some avant garde classical music they throw you off by mixing clusters with proper chords and then bring you relief by playing what you are used to hearing making it an experience you wont forget. If you "compose" music. Wouldn't you compose you art? I have not started using this in my own work because simply my drawing skills are at the moment poor.

[CCThrom]

My point is - scales are merely a means to an end and not a very good means by most measures.

Ok I think we're getting somewhere. You're running into the same issue with drawing, though you lack the frame of reference to see it.

Even if you don't believe in the effectiveness of scales, I'd go out on a limb and say that most music students start with them. How long they continue with scales before getting bored and moving on depends on the student. Still, many professional musicians continue to use scales as a warm up before concert.

scales = basic drawing exercises

Basic drawing exercises being things like... value gradients, pages full of mark-making for various drawing tools, color wheel, drawing circles and lines, etc. Just as scales are not music by themselves, these things are not drawings in of themselves, but rather the foundations OF drawing. Moving along...

you can get the same benefit and more by learning new songs using certain techniques.

I don't know what "certain techniques" are in music, but I'm pretty sure the analogy would run like this...

learning a new song = drawing from direct observation

Just as it makes more sense to start learning simple songs, when you're learning to draw it helps to start with simple life drawings. Simple objects and strong lighting. The important thing is this part has to be from observation... spending more time looking than drawing. Try to draw what you see, not what you think you see. This helps get your analytical/symbolic left brain out of the process.

improvisational performance = drawing without reference

or maybe

writing your own good music = creating a good drawing/illustration

If you don't have a good musical vocabulary built up and lots of practice behind you, you're not going to play like Charlie Parker! Just as he makes improvisational jazz seem loose and easy, great artists do the same with drawing.

Starting to lose steam... hope that made sense.