The Joker – A New Legend?

[Dredwalker]

Okay, I know I am way late with this. So you may be reading something that already has been said. But I will say it anyway.

There is no villain like the Joker in the comic book universe. You think of any other comic villain that comes close, and you’ll find him/her with some supernatural power that justifies his/her terror. But the Joker is a straight-up sadistic psychopath who can terrorize without superpowers. Who else does that? Only people in the real world, and they don’t come close. And thanks to “The Dark Knight” the Joker has graduated from being a favorite bad guy to becoming “What the Fuuuuuck!” You got your legendary monsters, The Vampire, Mummy, Wolfman, etc. I think The Joker is ready to join those ranks. His origin and real name is a mystery, or better yet have conflicting sources. Your thoughts?

[~Faust~]

I don't think either the vmpire, the mummy or the Wolf,man are brands of DC-Comics. So it's the very essence of intellectual property that avoid the joker from becoming such a prototype. Also, I wouldn't say the oker is a bit archetypical in nature, being the evil clown, And there's a lot of evil clowns out there aside from the Joker. But I agree, I like the character of the Joker, I always want him to win somehow.

[Interceptor]

What a cute way to introduce yourself to the forums.

[Opilione]

Your thoughts?
The Killing Joke was still boring.

[Blahm]

have some sleeping pills.

[HunterKiller_]

Nobody in the Batman universe has special powers...
Ok, maybe Poison Ivy, but that's it.

[Opilione]

Nobody in the Batman universe has special powers...
Ok, maybe Poison Ivy, but that's it.
Batman's part of DC and regularly has fisticuffs with superpowered villians and heroes alike when he's doing his JLA gig. Or even when he just beats up Killer Croc in the sewers for kicks, who yes, has the power of being a big crocodile.

[HunterKiller_]

Batman's part of DC and regularly has fisticuffs with superpowered villians and heroes alike when he's doing his JLA gig. Or even when he just beats up Killer Croc in the sewers for kicks, who yes, has the power of being a big crocodile.

I was speaking of just the original Batman universe, not this cross over bullshit (I hate that stuff).

Also, Steve Erwin did it, so I'm sure Batman can too. ;)

[Renegade89]

I think the Dark Knight is the most over-rated film i ever saw.

There, i said it!

ducks and covers*

[TASmith]

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I think it was a great beginning that felt almost like some new dumbass started directing half way through. A couple simplistic plot twists threw it off course, characters got axed before a proper story could unfold, Bruce never had a proper character, and the last thirty minutes just got strewn together in somewhat random order. It was like watching a racehorse break its leg midway down the track, and still stubbornly hobble to the finish. Heath Ledger was what made it watchable, and with him gone, that franchise is dead too.

The good thing about the joker is that he can have so many personalities, just like the devil himself. Anyone can make their own version. There was actually a neat short story compilation of Batman/Joker stories by famous authors, and Asimov had a fun time making up a new Joker.

[Opilione]

I was speaking of just the original Batman universe, not this cross over bullshit (I hate that stuff).
There is no "original Batman universe". Batman first appeared in a general DC-universe comic called "Detective Comics", issue #27. He has been a part of the "cross over bullshit" since the very beginning. All superheroes have, and I would gamble that there's no exception to this rule.

[Adam Synapse]

When you say that The Joker is the only great supervillain without powers I would have to disagree. Sure The Joker, if done right, can be great but what about Lex Luthor? He doesn't have superpowers and yet he still remains a constant thorn in Superman's side. I would even hazard to say that Luthor is worse then The Joker. The Joker is a madman, Luthor isn't.

[Duq]

The Joker only works well as a character because he is the direct opposite of Batman. Without the contrast between the two of them, both of them would be pretty boring.

I dont think the Joker on its own will become a classic character. His archetype is old, and tons of villians fit is. Even though the Joker is awesome in the story, the character itself doesnt expand beyond the role of an pshycotic trickster. Wich is a good thing, and is the reason why the character is such an amazing arch enemy for Batman. But if you would pair the joker with any other type of hero the character would simply be uninteresting. The classical villians are classical because they arent reliant on an arch enemy to make them shine.

[tobbA]

To become a legend you first have to be around a thousand years old so that no one really remembers if you really existed or not.

Maybe in a thousand years when society has collided upon itself and we all hunt huge mutated rats for food in the ruins of big cities and people go around saying "You know, once there was this guy who was called 'The Joker' and he was pretty bad ass..."

Then you could call him a legend :)

[Adam Synapse]

To become a legend you first have to be around a thousand years old so that no one really remembers if you really existed or not.

Maybe in a thousand years when society has collided upon itself and we all hunt huge mutated rats for food in the ruins of big cities and people go around saying "You know, once there was this guy who was called 'The Joker' and he was pretty bad ass..."

Then you could call him a legend :)


And that's pretty much how the myths and legends we kow of today came around as they are know. Baba Yaga, Hercules etc.
Maybe in the next 1000 years The Joker will be in a pantheon consisting of Princess Diana and Elvis

[TASmith]

*barfs*

The Joker isn't necessarily insane. Jack Nicholson's Joker wasn't so much wild & crazy as power hungry, elitist, and dismissive of the little people. His stunt at the end was more to create a fear of him and gain more power. Heath Leger's character was more into the thrill of the kill. As a character he's great and sure, he's one of the best villains out there. But, a character is always limited by his writer, and the recent film didn't quite do him justice. It didn't let us get to know him more, although he did have a few telling moments - like when he killed that rival boss with the knife.

[Hookswords]

*cough*

Sherlock and Moriarty

*cough*

[wassermelone]

Only people in the real world, and they don’t come close.

Uhh, yeah, no.

The Joker in the most recent movie was a right fucking bastard.

But real life can be even more fucked up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Brudos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Gein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

[TASmith]

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that was another great character limited by the writer. I mean, come on, invented and killed all in the first short story? Moriarty was just a quick way for Doyle to quit the whole thing. Then readers twisted his arm to continue it...

[Vermis]

Way to spoil, TASmith. :P But yeah, I thought it was disappointing too.

And what happened to Mrs. Watson, in the stories after?

Anyway, yes. The Joker is pretty elemental. I think. Left-field topic, though.

[Rist]

Never come to the lounge as a new user. These angry little pixies will rip your head off and kick you down a hill screaming "GTFO!".

I like the Joker. Kids HATE clowns and this was a unique way to prick our terror syndrome.

[Elwell]

Yes, the Joker is (potentially, depending on how he is handled) a great character. And Ledger's performance was amazing. But let's go easy on the fanboy superlatives, please.

[kev ferrara]

I like

THE HULK

Batman needed more explosions and they should team him up with supergirl. I think Two-face should have a radiation accident and become three-face.

[Sundance]

I like

THE HULK

Batman needed more explosions and they should team him up with supergirl. I think Two-face should have a radiation accident and become three-face.

He's just a re-invention of Mr. Hyde...nothing special there.

The Joker is just another version of the Riddler or 18 other non-super powered villans that Batman matches wits with.

He never will be a character on par with Dracula or any of the classic literary characters; most likely because of the natural lack of classic literary charm in comics.

[kev ferrara]

Hulk Smash :ad: :ar: :aa: :ac: :au: :al: :aa: :a!: :batgirl:

[Arshes Nei]

Goku.

[sweetoblivion314]

I was speaking of just the original Batman universe, not this cross over bullshit (I hate that stuff).

Also, Steve Erwin did it, so I'm sure Batman can too. ;)

Ivy
Bane
Clayface I through V
Man-Bat
Mr. Freeze
Ra's Al Ghul
The Monk
Killer Moth
Killer Croc

all original to the batman universe

[Clochette]

There is a bunch of great evil genius in cinema, books and real world.
The Joker is not the only one!
But I agree the last interpretation of the Joker was really impressive.
Here is a sample of my brend new super evil people folder just for you! (Voldemort, Fu Manchu, Professor Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes, Hitler, Raspoutine, Big Brother from 1984, Cartman, De Niro aka Louis Cypher from Angel Heart, Darth Vader, Marlon Brando aka Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse now, Charles Manson, Raoh from Riu Ken... )

[TASmith]

www.evilscale.com

[el coro]

this thread is a strong argument to vote yes for prop h8...

c36

[N D Hill]

Hulk Smash :ad: :ar: :aa: :ac: :au: :al: :aa: :a!: :batgirl:

There is a serious flaw in in your argument. Dracula is immortal. Therefore Hulk would only "Smash" Dracula if he somehow retained the mental capacity to exploit one of the weaknesses inherent in vampires, a.e. wooden stake, sunlight, garlic , etc. Expecting this of the Hulk would be unrealistic as he can't even speak in complete sentences. While you could argue that Dracula's fangs couldn't pierce the Hulk's super tough gama irradiated neck skin, he could certainly pierce Bruce Banner's. However, Banner, being a scientist, probably stands a better chance of learning and exploiting Dracula's vampiric weaknesses. Either way, "Hulk " would not "Smash :ad: :ar: :aa: :ac: :au: :al: :aa: :a!:"

[Opilione]

Oh El Coro. Why are you so scared of the true love that can only blossom between a vigilante of the night and his adoring antithesis? If your kid turns out gay, it's not going to be because he read Batman comics. Even if the Joker is really gay for Bruce a lot of the time.

[Nam]

Ivy
Bane
Clayface I through V
Man-Bat
Mr. Freeze
Ra's Al Ghul
The Monk
Killer Moth
Killer Croc

all original to the batman universe

Batman fights a killer moth?

God damn.

[Adam Synapse]

Even if the Joker is really gay for Bruce a lot of the time.

Especially in The Dark Knight Returns.
Calling him Darling, his psychiatrist owing his madness to sexual repression and who could forget their final battle in the Tunnel of Lurve

[JFierce]

Especially in The Dark Knight Returns.
Calling him Darling, his psychiatrist owing his madness to sexual repression and who could forget their final battle in the Tunnel of Lurve

So Jokers psychiatrist is Sigmund Freud?

[Arshes Nei]

I think the IRS is the best villain out there today.

[Opilione]

Especially in The Dark Knight Returns.
Calling him Darling, his psychiatrist owing his madness to sexual repression and who could forget their final battle in the Tunnel of Lurve
But is it as gay as the gay space worms (http://the-isb.blogspot.com/2005/11/where-they-went-wrong-superman-and.html)?

[Renegade89]

Talking about villains, IRL M.Bison comes to my mind.

Gigantic motherfucker

http://blog.eitb.com/media/Image/Vizcaino/Chavez.jpg

[Adam Synapse]

So Jokers psychiatrist is Sigmund Freud?
of course not silly
although he does look like Hitler with an afro
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/image/Joker_2.jpg

[Serpian]

Okay, okay guys, the ultimate question:

Who would win, Voldemort or the Joker?

Only serious discussion, plz.

[Adam Synapse]

well now thats a toughie.
It would seem that with his innately evil dark powers Voldemort would have the upper hand although in the Joker's defence he has gone up against a number of super-powered opponents including Superman, Poison Ivy etc
It would have to be a pretty close call.

[Interceptor]

What happens if a zombie bites a vampire?

[Opilione]

Voldemort's an idiot.

The Joker, hands down.

[Adam Synapse]

What happens if a zombie bites a vampire?

Spontaneous combustion of Uwe Boll

[Sundance]

What if Wikipedia took on the Encyclopedia???? That would be AWESOME!

:lounge: :lounge: :lounge: :lounge: :lounge: :lounge: :lounge:

[Hookswords]

I smell a crit week

[Demo]

He's just a re-invention of Mr. Hyde...nothing special there.

The Joker is just another version of the Riddler or 18 other non-super powered villans that Batman matches wits with.

He never will be a character on par with Dracula or any of the classic literary characters; most likely because of the natural lack of classic literary charm in comics.

The villians in the batman series are all supposed to be based off of pyscotic conditions
Joker- sociopath
2face- split personality also has a condition where he cant rely on him self to make decisions
things like that
the originals were all just supposed to be conditions regular people have
the riddler and the joker really dont have that much in common besides being messed up
their was a history channel special over all their conditions was reealy cool

[Dredwalker]

What a cute way to introduce yourself to the forums.

THANKS :carnifex:

[Dredwalker]

I don't think either the vmpire, the mummy or the Wolf,man are brands of DC-Comics. So it's the very essence of intellectual property that avoid the joker from becoming such a prototype. Also, I wouldn't say the oker is a bit archetypical in nature, being the evil clown, And there's a lot of evil clowns out there aside from the Joker. But I agree, I like the character of the Joker, I always want him to win somehow.

Well, we don't have to limit to DC.

And yes there are evil clowns out there. But who's the most famous?

[Dredwalker]

I think the Dark Knight is the most over-rated film i ever saw.

There, i said it!

ducks and covers*

Well, I did hate the way batman talked. That loud whispering can kill your throat:

"Then you're gonna love meeeee!!!"

[Dredwalker]

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I think it was a great beginning that felt almost like some new dumbass started directing half way through. A couple simplistic plot twists threw it off course, characters got axed before a proper story could unfold, Bruce never had a proper character, and the last thirty minutes just got strewn together in somewhat random order. It was like watching a racehorse break its leg midway down the track, and still stubbornly hobble to the finish. Heath Ledger was what made it watchable, and with him gone, that franchise is dead too.

The good thing about the joker is that he can have so many personalities, just like the devil himself. Anyone can make their own version. There was actually a neat short story compilation of Batman/Joker stories by famous authors, and Asimov had a fun time making up a new Joker.


Any stories come to mind in particular?

[Dredwalker]

When you say that The Joker is the only great supervillain without powers I would have to disagree. Sure The Joker, if done right, can be great but what about Lex Luthor? He doesn't have superpowers and yet he still remains a constant thorn in Superman's side. I would even hazard to say that Luthor is worse then The Joker. The Joker is a madman, Luthor isn't.

I would have to disagree for the reasons you posted. Like you said Joker is a madman and Luther isn't. Can you imagine those two going at it with each other? Its like a loose cannon vs a knife.

[Dredwalker]

The Joker only works well as a character because he is the direct opposite of Batman. Without the contrast between the two of them, both of them would be pretty boring.

I dont think the Joker on its own will become a classic character. His archetype is old, and tons of villians fit is. Even though the Joker is awesome in the story, the character itself doesnt expand beyond the role of an pshycotic trickster. Wich is a good thing, and is the reason why the character is such an amazing arch enemy for Batman. But if you would pair the joker with any other type of hero the character would simply be uninteresting. The classical villians are classical because they arent reliant on an arch enemy to make them shine.

I can agree with that. But the Joker is a terroist who can also get into your head. Look at what he did to Harley Quinn. And she started of as his psychiatrist before she went bonkers. (Well, at least that's in one rendition of her origin.)

[Dredwalker]

To become a legend you first have to be around a thousand years old so that no one really remembers if you really existed or not.

Maybe in a thousand years when society has collided upon itself and we all hunt huge mutated rats for food in the ruins of big cities and people go around saying "You know, once there was this guy who was called 'The Joker' and he was pretty bad ass..."

Then you could call him a legend :)

Not really. Look at Dr.Frankenstein's monster. He's fairly new compared to the other evil legends. And he's totally fictional. And he's a legend.

[Dredwalker]

*barfs*

The Joker isn't necessarily insane. Jack Nicholson's Joker wasn't so much wild & crazy as power hungry, elitist, and dismissive of the little people. His stunt at the end was more to create a fear of him and gain more power. Heath Leger's character was more into the thrill of the kill. As a character he's great and sure, he's one of the best villains out there. But, a character is always limited by his writer, and the recent film didn't quite do him justice. It didn't let us get to know him more, although he did have a few telling moments - like when he killed that rival boss with the knife.

Some stories give the Joker a soul. Or at least for two minutes. LOL

[Dredwalker]

[QUOTE=Sundance;1988352]
The Joker is just another version of the Riddler or 18 other non-super powered villans that Batman matches wits with.

[QUOTE]

Rumour has it that the Joker character is really a derivative of Conrad Veidt in The Man Who Laughs.

[Clochette]

Frankenstein's creature? 1818 though... The first time, in a Mary Shelley book... Not really new! :)

[Dredwalker]

*cough*

Sherlock and Moriarty

*cough*

Classic Analogy

[s.ketch]

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_vb_edit_posts

[Dredwalker]

There is a bunch of great evil genius in cinema, books and real world.
The Joker is not the only one!
But I agree the last interpretation of the Joker was really impressive.
Here is a sample of my brend new super evil people folder just for you! (Voldemort, Fu Manchu, Professor Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes, Hitler, Raspoutine, Big Brother from 1984, Cartman, De Niro aka Louis Cypher from Angel Heart, Darth Vader, Marlon Brando aka Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse now, Charles Manson, Raoh from Riu Ken... )

Don't get me started with Darth Vader. He was on his way to be another super Badass Villian, then . . . I don't know, did Lucas fall into a vat of meth?

Go JAR JAR!!! Meesoo like you!!!

[Dredwalker]

There is a bunch of great evil genius in cinema, books and real world.
The Joker is not the only one!
But I agree the last interpretation of the Joker was really impressive.
Here is a sample of my brend new super evil people folder just for you! (Voldemort, Fu Manchu, Professor Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes, Hitler, Raspoutine, Big Brother from 1984, Cartman, De Niro aka Louis Cypher from Angel Heart, Darth Vader, Marlon Brando aka Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse now, Charles Manson, Raoh from Riu Ken... )

Oh and Cartman? He's just an 8 year old Archie Bunker.

[Dredwalker]

Oh and Cartman? He's just an 8 year old Archie Bunker.

I'm thinking about taking that back. Archie Bunker was a little smarter.

[Dredwalker]

There is a serious flaw in in your argument. Dracula is immortal. Therefore Hulk would only "Smash" Dracula if he somehow retained the mental capacity to exploit one of the weaknesses inherent in vampires, a.e. wooden stake, sunlight, garlic , etc. Expecting this of the Hulk would be unrealistic as he can't even speak in complete sentences. While you could argue that Dracula's fangs couldn't pierce the Hulk's super tough gama irradiated neck skin, he could certainly pierce Bruce Banner's. However, Banner, being a scientist, probably stands a better chance of learning and exploiting Dracula's vampiric weaknesses. Either way, "Hulk " would not "Smash :ad: :ar: :aa: :ac: :au: :al: :aa: :a!:"

Wouldn't it be cool if Dracula drank Hulk's blood only to become a Hulking Vampire?????

[Dredwalker]

Voldemort's an idiot.

The Joker, hands down.

YUP!!!!

[Dredwalker]

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_vb_edit_posts

Did I miss something?

[Clochette]

You missed the edit function! :P

[tobbA]

Not really. Look at Dr.Frankenstein's monster. He's fairly new compared to the other evil legends. And he's totally fictional. And he's a legend.

I wouldn't really call Frankenstein a legend. More a popular fictional character.

So let's quote Wikipedia: "A legend (Latin, legenda, "things to be read") is a narrative of human actions that are perceived both by teller and listeners to take place within human history and to possess certain qualities that give the tale verisimilitude."

So a legend is more of a story that might have taken place and some of it should at least seem to be true. Kinda like Jesus, Hercules, the Illiad and so on.