Art School vs. State College

[Mary Mary]

I'm researching art education for my son. He'd like to go into illustration.

He's planning to apply for scholarships to some art colleges (specifically Columbus College of Art and Design), but if he doesn't get any scholarships then we're going to need a more economical alternative.

Are there any other colleges, particularly in Ohio, that have an art program that would be a good alternative? Kent? Ohio University? BGSU?

Also, what would we need to take into consideration if he ends up attending a state school at least to start, and then potentially transferring to CCAD?

Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom!

[Mock]

Quote from Jason Manley: "Where you choose to go to art school is less important than bringing an attitude of "doing whatever it takes" to learn about art to where you are studying."

That isn't to say that who you learn from isn't important, but some people get that mentality of "I can't be a good artist if I don't go to a good school." Which is absolutely untrue. So don't let him fret if he does end up attending a state school. There is an abundance of information here on CA.org especially that can help him improve independently to supplement what he learns in school

I would suggest having him start out doing a lot of the general education/core classes like his English, Art history, etc courses that most schools require out of the way at a state school if CCAD is too expensive at first. He can check with a CCAD advisor to get a list of courses at a state school that would transfer to CCAD. Doing that will also give him a year or two to polish his portfolio, get a high GPA, and he'll be in a better position to receive both academic and artistic scholarships.

There's also the FAFSA. The Pell Grant can provide around $4,000 a year that you don't have to pay back, and the Stafford Loan (if you opt to take it since it has a fixed low interest rate) is better than any sort of private loan you could get. It's also deferred for a few months after graduation in order to give him time to get a job and save some money.

Also, have him sign up at www.fastweb.com. It's a site that has a big collection of independent scholarships and he can type in his intended major, background info, etc and they will bring up a list of scholarships he is eligible for. A lot of them are essay competitions, art contests, etc, but it can't hurt to see what they offer. I got about 1/3 of my scholarship money via essay contests from that site.

Just have him keep in mind that no matter where he goes, it's what he does outside of class that will make or break his ability to succeed in the art field.

Best of luck!

[WickedEdges]

That's funny, because I'm moving back to Ohio and I'm asking pretty much the same questions. I'm going for animation, but the fundamentals of art are important in any art-related major/occupation. Which should be obvious, but to some people is not. Anyways, I'm an Iraq War Veteran and just recently was told that the state of Ohio(my homestate) is allowing all veterans to have free tuition at any state school. And so far from the research I've been doing, BGSU and OSU look to have the best art programs to me personally. Now that doesn't necessarily mean anything for your son, since everyone is different. I'd say take him to several different schools, let him check it out, see what he thinks of the equipment, professors, student artwork. Just get a general feel of the place, but make sure you're getting quality too.

Something else someone suggested to me, is that sometimes places like CCAD and College for Creative Studies in Detroit have agreements with local community colleges for people to start their general studies and basic art classes there and for those credits to be transfered to their institution. This will help cut the extreme costs of private art schools. Have him check out Cleveland Institute of Art as well.


Hope this helps!

[Mary Mary]

We're already signed up at fastweb, but so far I've mostly been using it to narrow down colleges themselves. I'll have to start investigating the scholarships more. (Between band, school and work he's not had much time to do research himself so I've been narrowing stuff down with lots of input from him. Don't want you to get the impression that he's not involved!)

We've both read the thread on the realities of going to art school that's stickied here which was a great resource!

I was just wondering if there were any non-art schools that had a better reputation for art than others.

Thanks for the input!

[FranciscoShreds]

Something else someone suggested to me, is that sometimes places like CCAD and College for Creative Studies in Detroit have agreements with local community colleges for people to start their general studies and basic art classes there and for those credits to be transfered to their institution. This will help cut the extreme costs of private art schools. Have him check out Cleveland Institute of Art as well.


Hope this helps!

I was about to suggest the same thing, I'm currently going to CSCC (columbus state community college) and am studying graphic design but I'm looking at transferring to CCAD. I know for a fact that CSCC does transfer credits to both OSU and CCAD. Though, CSCC is pretty lacking in terms of art classes, I dunno if it was this quarter that was lacking but the art section was bare. On the plus side, Gene, one of my Graphic Design teachers started some beginner courses for Painter (he got the department to buy 27 Intuos3 6x8's and 27 licenses of Painter X) , and he is looking to expand it to more advanced classes as well. :D

[Mary Mary]

I learned on this site last night that CIA is more oriented to Industrial Design and not so great for illustration. Still might visit there though, especially if anyone has a dissenting opinion on the weakness of the illustration program there!

We've visited several places already, but really only CCAD for art. (The other visits were to Shawnee State and Ohio University, but were scheduled primarily for his brother for digital simulation and video game design. Even the art guy at Shawnee State said that they weren't the place for a 'serious' artist and we simply ran out of time while at OU and didn't make it to the art department. I may schedule a visit specifically to the art department at OU, just so we can make an informed decision about it.)

Columbus State Community College DOES have an agreement with CCAD for those who are attending CCAD. I still need to check out that relationship from the CSCC side of things as that's also another potential school for his brother as well. (I'm having to do the college search x2 if you hadn't picked up on that!) I did learn that CSCC and CCAD are on different academic systems (one has quarters, the other semesters...can't remember which has which) and our guide wasn't sure how all that worked out given that fact! Something else I need to research further.

[Mary Mary]

I was about to suggest the same thing, I'm currently going to CSCC (columbus state community college) and am studying graphic design but I'm looking at transferring to CCAD. I know for a fact that CSCC does transfer credits to both OSU and CCAD. Though, CSCC is pretty lacking in terms of art classes, I dunno if it was this quarter that was lacking but the art section was bare. On the plus side, Gene, one of my Graphic Design teachers started some beginner courses for Painter (he got the department to buy 27 Intuos3 6x8's and 27 licenses of Painter X) , and he is looking to expand it to more advanced classes as well. :D

That answers the question of which school does quarters!!

That is good info to have about CSCC art department. Do you know anything about their video game design program?

[Maxine Schacker]

Mary Mary, just keep in mind that game design and concept art are not the same thing! One of your posts seemed to indicate that your son is most interested in game design. Is that right?

[Mary Mary]

To clarify I have TWO sons. Twins. One wants to do game design and the other wants illustration/concept art.

[WickedEdges]

I think it's great what you're doing for your children, it's more than my parents did for me x10!! They both seem to want to have exciting careers in the art/gaming industries and your involvment in that will help a ton. Both ARE serious careers with a potential for great success, they just have to push themselves. But yes, concept art and illustration and gaming are all separate careers.

[Jasper_]

I'd just like to applaud you for being so involved and supportive of your sons' career choices. Not many parents are enthusiastic when they realize their child wants to "make games" for a living. I find it difficult to hold an educated conversation with my family about my plans for the future, which I'm hoping will involve concept art for the entertainment industry. Anyway good luck on the college search, I hope everything works out.

[WickedEdges]

Post stealer. :P

[Mary Mary]

Yeah, I don't remember my parents getting too involved with my education other than to gripe about how much college might cost. Partly as a result of that I never have worked in the field I have my degree in. I don't recall ever really being asked what I wanted to do...just being told what would be a good field to go into.

With my boys I've asked them extensive questions about what they want to do...but also assured them that if they find themselves wanting to do something different later then that's fine too. I just don't want them to be the kids who, upon graduating from high school, 'think' they'd like 'to do something with their art'...but don't have any sort of plan. So many of their friends don't seem to have much family support or encouragement.

I've also seen a nephew enroll at a high dollar school, only to run out of money before graduation and now isn't attending anywhere. I WANT to believe that we'll find the money somehow, but also want to make the finances as low-impact as possible, especially since there are two of them starting college at the same time!

I worry sometimes that I'm doing too much of the 'search' for them, but really, sorting through all this has been information overload for ME. Even though they're fairly mature and capable I think it would be just too much for them to make sense of all by themselves at this stage of their lives.

[Mary Mary]

Oh, and I've had a few raised eyebrows when I mention that my one son wants to do game development. I point out that there is hardly a major news story these days that don't have some sort of computer generated recreation of events or graphic of some sort. Land on Mars? There's simulated footage of the landing. Natural disaster? Simulated footage of the sequence of events. Documentary on fireworks? Simulated footage of how a firework explodes.

Granted, most of my examples are more animation, but those are just the most visible examples. More and more training stuff is interactive simulations. The guy at Ohio University was telling how they were developing interactive software for junior high kids to do virtual science experiments. The sorts of things that there's just going to be more of, not less.

Most of the time I don't even let people get as far as questioning my sons desire to develop games. I explain why it's a good field and leave it at that!

Plus I made my son promise that he'd develop some games geared towards people like his little sisters.

[FranciscoShreds]

The Game Design program is actually pretty good from what I hear. Though I haven't taken any classes in it myself, they have classes for the big 3D gen. software such as maya and all those. I went to a seminar last year and there were a number of game design schools that were going to be allowing for CSCC credits to be transferring to them and that were putting stock in general into CSCC. It's a good stepping stone to get your son's abilities honed in that respect.

As far as the art section of CSCC goes, I don't want to sound negative but it is pretty lacking, in practical means especially. I mean, they have the art history classes and the beginning drawing class and a colour composition class which will be useful but that's about it. The Beginning painting class, while it's on the roster, has not been taught even once. It's not that they don't have teachers for it, because they do, or that they don't have the demand for it, because it is there; there's been numerous petitions passed around in fact, just to try to get the class actually added but CSCC just won't put it on. We're trying another petition this year to see if they'll add it to the registry so that people can sign up for it but it's doubtful at this point...

All the credits do transfer over though, that way your sons can take care of all the filler classes required for their major and then just focus on the game design classes and art classes when they do transfer over to their respective colleges.

[Mary Mary]

Thanks for the input on CSCC game design! I still need to schedule a visit there.

For us there are some factors that make community college a so-so option, but that will be a decision we can firm up once we crunch all the numbers.

[WickedEdges]

If you don't mind my asking, what part of Ohio are you from? If you feel uncomfortable telling the whole world, you can PM me as well.

[Mary Mary]

We're in central Ohio. It takes us about 40 minutes to get to CCAD. My sons have taken Saturday Morning Art Classes there since 7th grade.

[Mary Mary]

So is the art department at BGSU pretty well thought of?

I have to admit that my sons biggest stumbling block at the moment is his portfolio. I didn't realize until about a year ago that he wanted to major in art in college and I had NO IDEA how important a portfolio was!

Add in the fact that he's rarely had time in his school schedule for an art class and that equals 'not many finished pieces'. So while he sketches fairly constantly he's not so great at the moment on following through to completed drawings...he's just rarely had deadlines to meet thus far. Unless he gets cracking there is no way he's going to have an adequate portfolio by the time that scholarship deadlines roll around, hence my search for a state university with a good reputation for art to get him started at. All part of the maturing process as I see it.

[WickedEdges]

...is a place I myself was considering at first. I was looking into their Digital Arts program. However, after speaking with a student VERY extensively about that program, I decided against it. He had informed me that the professors were lacking to say the least. They have no industry experience. They only teach the software, which anyone can easily learn on their own. And none of them even LIKE animation. Now with a program that has an animation track, does that make any sense to you? And keep in mind, this student was one of the top graduating students who won a national animation award with two other classmates, not some disgrunted drop out. The only thing he said that helped him reach his achievements was his own personal drive. Also, if you look at the program itself it doesn't have very many traditional art classes, which is not conducive to making a good animatior or game designer.

As for the traditional art, just take a look at the professors and students portfolios on the BGSU Art Dept's website. I personally wasn't very impressed. I'm leaning more towards the OSU side of things. We don't have very many choices in Ohio, I'm afraid.

Goodl uck with everything though and please keep reporting back information on where you've been, good and bad.

[CreAtive]

super long...SORRY!
Hi Mary Mary...another Mom here, went thru what you are dealing with last year. YOu are on a great site for info and hopefully the current students on here will be a sawesome for you as they were for us! Their insight is gold. One of the first things I would suggest is for your boys to attend a National Portfolio Day event,this is where they can show their works and get invaluable feedback from multiple colleges in one day I am in Illinois and Chicago's NPD was last weekend I believe.There are multiple locations, you may have to travel, but it is worth it. This event was awesome for my daughter as she coud ask specific questions on her major ( Computer Animation) and see if she was on the right track. We went the fall of Senior year, but if kids can go Junior year, all the better. You can show incomplete pieces, having finished works are of course going to be more influential, but these teachers/reps know exactly what to look for and can spot it instantly. Have your sons draw from direct observation as much as possible...any artisit will benefit from that, no down side at all. They can also get more info on their intended major, literature, it's also SO inspiring ot see all the incredible talent that is out there, and also one of the first looks at the competition.
My daughter applied and got into CCAD, and was awarded a very nice scholarship based in her portfolio. The feed back she received at NPD was pretty influential in the pieces she chose to submit. It is also possible to be "pre-accepted" into a school at NPD, or least it happened for us last year. Both Ringling( if she was going to major in Illustration) and CCAD accepted her based on her portfolio, but of course, notihing was final until transcripts, essay etc were formally submitted.
We struggled with State vs Art school to a point of such frustration that it was in effect taking a huge toll on our daughter. Even tho we have School of the Art Institute (SAIC)and Columbia College right here, neither offered a competetive Computer Animation program. Back when out daughter was a sophomore she wrote to various companies asking what colleges they recruit from or could guide her in any way during a search for a reputable school that would give her a chance to be marketable in such a competitive field.
There were some state schools in the mix, but none were in Illinois so we were faced with out of state tuition, or private art school tuirion...both about the same insane cost. We had MANY long talks with our daughter over finances, debt etc., and her basic stance was this: I can pay about $100,000 for a general degree at a state school that will not prepare me for the competition out there ( again, she is CA )or go in another $50,000 and get the education I need. She chose the latter. She walked from a sizeable scholarship at CCAD, because while for many majors the school is really good, Illustration and ID being 2 of them....it just did not offer a CA program that was a good match for her.
I think your sons choice of Game Design is not an "eye-brow" raiser...my daughters boyfriend is majoring in it ( also at Ringling) and it is very mainstream. You will find that MANY people still do not consider ANY form of art a REAL career. I myself majored in Illustration, attended a state school, and only AFTER graduating did I find how unprepared I was. I know individual talent and hard work is the key to being successful, but I was beat out on many a job by a candidate who had more specialized training, or came from an Art school. I learned then and there while MANY state school are doing their best and have incredible instructors, certain majors just do not offer the same program/instruction/opportunities that the Art colleges can/do. Ii literally am the product of what my daughter is trying to avoid, investing 100,000 and not be marketable, or spend the extra and at least have a fair chance. I think if your sons are interested in Art Education, writing, the Business of Art, things of that nature, state schools can be VERY competitive....but not always in something like Game Design. There are differences in Game Art and Game Design also, so again, have your sons (S) speak with the different departments to see which is the better fit.
From what we found, BGSU was pretty decent, I would still shoot for CCAD, however, their Media Studies program was sort of too broad for our DD, not specific enough for CA. They did add a CA major this year, but since it is the 1st year for it, our daughter chose to attend Ringling ( plus, it was just a better fit for her overall, and she loves it).
Also, of all the schools we looked at, our daughters 2nd choice was our Community College. She was almost going to attend, but once she maed it into Ringlings CA program, she was not going to risk her acceptance, and she was so excited that there was no looking back. She still says tho, that the Community collge art department was by far more impressive and current, dealing with reality than most colleges. One BIG thing I would look at is the Internship opportunities that ANY college can offer. These will be key to the future success of your son. And, to make sure they actually do want to work in what they are majoring in. Ask student s when you visit, what they think. Do they feel instructors are available to them outside of class, size of the school is important, so they get one on one feedback etc. Environment is also a biggie, I mean, if he is not going to be happy in his environment, it can hamper his success. You mention band, so a plus to state school is having band as a continueing option...many art schools do not offer the traditional college experience, but they do offer being able to take classes in your inteneded major pretty much by sophomore year, some sooner. Another thing to look at is the Gen Eds required in each major at each school, is a school a flat rate tuition or by class....it can be overwhelming, and then the competition to get in. Our daughter was fighting for one of about 100 slots for her major, so next time someone thinks that Art Schoool is not like trying to get into Harvard, well, it's all relative.
It's expensive. VERY expensive. If your son is not pretty darn sure, I agree with the Community College approach, many class sizes are smaller and it is a great way to learn time management and how to juggle multiple projects, and get used to 2-3 hour studios classes.
Good Luck and I hope some of this helped a little.

Pam

[Mary Mary]

Helped a lot Pam, thanks!!

[Mary Mary]

Just giving a little update:

As I mentioned before, one of the biggest stumbling blocks for my son at the moment is a lack of portfolio. He REALLY needs to get that in order because he essentially has NOTHING other than his sketch book.

He has quite a few half-finished things, but other than that...

I've decided (and shared with him this feeling) that until he gets a portfolio together there's no clear path.

I hate to pay even what a state college would charge (room and board and all that) without a clear idea of which art department would be an asset. Unfortunately, none of the community colleges that are accessible to us (CSCC being one, Marion OSU and Marion Tech being others) appear to have an art department with any depth at all. One other, Clark State in Springfield seems to have a glitch with their website at the moment and I can't access it.

In contrast, if my son moved in with my mom who lives two hours north of us (my dad died this past summer, so him living with her would mean that neither of them was living alone), there would be four options for community college. Mansfield OSU, North Central State (also in Mansfield), BGSU Firelands (in Huron...which is where I attended college), and Lorain County CC.

The Mansfield schools are out...no discernable art department at those based on the course offerings...a few classes, but ONLY a few. Firelands has more, but Lorain CCC appears to offer the most art classes of them all. (After learning that CSCC has art classes that are listed...but not held...I HAVE emailed them asking about whether or not the classes actually happen.)

So...unless he gets his portfolio spiffed up dramatically in the next few months then I think he's going to be spending a year with grandma (or, if they get sick of each other, his dad owns a house in the same area that's currently empty) and taking as many art classes at LCCC as he possibly can. He could probably knock out a few other basic college classes too, but truthfully, I want him to spend his time primarily on his art if it comes to that.

I'm resigned to the fact that if he did get into an art school the following year he would probably still need to attend for the full four years, but that's fine. I'm not worried about how much might transfer to CCAD or wherever.

Also, if he just doesn't get his portfolio spiffed up enough in a year then he's going to need to reassess exactly what direction he wants to go from there anyway. If he's simply unable to work against a deadline and get pieces finished then he's never going to make it as a professional artist anyway.

I wish now that I'd insisted that he take art all four years in high school and had I realized that he wanted to be a professional artist I might have...it would have given him more experience getting stuff finished AND he'd have some pieces for the portfolio. As things are he's only been able to fit a couple of semesters of art into his class schedule so far.

[Mary Mary]

Adding: The best case scenario is that he gets his act in gear (once band season is done...tomorrow is their last performance) and gets his portfolio in order in enough time to apply to CCAD for scholarships. Otherwise we're going to have to go with plan B!

[Meloncov]

While it's good that your involved, is their any reason your son isn't the one asking these questions?

[Mary Mary]

He's at band...just got home from the state final marching band competition at 12:30 in the morning.

Many evenings he works until 10:00 or 11:00pm.

Saturday mornings and afternoons are devoted to art classes. Tomorrow evening he has what may be his LAST marching band performance ever because their HS football team made the playoffs and they're going to play at half-time. If the football team doesn't win then marching band will officially be DONE.

He's not really had the time to even get online for weeks now. When he is home he spends much of his time sketching.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to get some college visits lined up while I have some time in my schedule and am trying to pin down where to schedule visits at. (We've been to CCAD already and a couple of state universities, although those were mostly for his brother.) I was seeking input on WHERE to schedule some other college visits at...if there were state universities that were more desirable than others in the art department.

Next week his schedule will be free of twice a week after school band practices, Friday night football games, and Saturday band contests. He really enjoys marching band, but it does take huge chunks of time. Several times he's been late to band on a Saturday so he could get his full art time in, and has also skipped some other activities he was looking forward to also to devote time to art.

But online time? Just hasn't happened lately except in very small increments! I've been learning all I can online and as soon as he comes in the door I pounce on him and tell him everything I've learned and ask for his input, etc.

Believe me...sometimes I feel like I might be doing too much of the legwork for him...but seriously, there just has not been time in his schedule up to now. Next week, and from now on, his plan is that the time previously spent in band is going to be devoted to working on his portfolio. I've even discussed whether or not he needs to quit his job to spend more time on his portfolio. And I'm the one who WANTED him to get a job!!!

[Maxine Schacker]

A concept artist isn't an animator. It helps to have an understanding of animation (and to that end we include one semester of classical animation). There are very few programs that teach the combination of traditional fine art, illustration and concept specific courses that he'll need. In my view he should start by getting a strong grounding in traditional fine art skills . For video games, he will be aiming for proficiency in trad representational painting.

As far as computer skills are concerned, while he'll need to understand Maya, he will mainly use Photoshop.

These careers, by the way, will be based on professionalism, creativity and knowledge and skill. No one will care about diplomas or degrees.

I am the Director of an artist/animator run career college in Toronto, and protocol limits me to suggesting that you check out our website (for the son who is interested in concept design- we don't teach game design). Our tuition for US and international students is approx. $10,000 a year Canadian (around $8000 US I think- check the exchange rate). Living expenses are reasonable.

[Mary Mary]

I'm ahead of you Maxine. Already checked the website and it gave me more questions to ask him!!!

I'm hoping to get as many possibilities investigated as I can in the next week and get some visits scheduled before Thanksgiving. He's just finished up the first quarter of school so he can hopefully miss a day here and there with no ill effect. I'm just NOT willing to have him miss a Saturday at CCAD at this point. He needs that 'art exclusive' time too badly.

[Mary Mary]

Maxine...to be honest, all else being equal and not factoring in scholarships, it would cost about as much (tuition + living expenses) for him to attend Max the Mutt as it would for him to attend CCAD and just live at home (or with his dad, who lives even closer to CCAD.)

[Randomizedsn]

The original post asked for more economic suggestions than private art schools.

I don't think her question has been answered very well. I'm making a portfolio now, and I'm trying to find some state colleges notorious for their art programs as well...doesn't matter what state. I'm going to major in film.

I'll pay $30k/year if I have to, so that I can attend a private college...but I'd also eat my own fingers to get a degree. For $30k/year, I basically am.

Thanks

[NoSeRider]

http://www.fullertonillustration.com/

If you're interested in storyboarding, which may be intertwined with film studies, I think USC Fullerton is a good school.

Even USC Long Beach is starting to develop a good storyboarding and animation department...even Industrial design.

If you're interested in improving your ability, and you're not a trust fund baby, here's some alternatives, after you get your degree:

LAAFA dot COM
CALARTINST dot COM
CONCEPTDESIGNACAD dot COM
3KICKSTUDIO dot COM

I'm just stating schools in the local LA area....I'm sure there's more.

[WickedEdges]

While researching OSU's Industrial Design program for myself, I came across an interesting tidbit. If you read this article, it informs you that OSU will be unveiling a new Digital Media/Computer Animation undergrad program, something that is already available to graduates, so they didn't "just" create it. The program itself has been around for a while, just not available to undergrads until now. Columbus Dispatch Article (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/02/28/OSU_design.ART_ART_02-28-08_B1_D49FV3A.html?sid=101)

Hope this helps. Good luck searching.

[fredcheng1987]

To clarify I have TWO sons. Twins. One wants to do game design and the other wants illustration/concept art.
I think for game design artcenter college of design have one of the best program , but they are kinda over price also...
massive black and gnome have pretty good program too i think, but i'm not sure they are offering a degree too

Quote from Jason Manley: "Where you choose to go to art school is less important than bringing an attitude of "doing whatever it takes" to learn about art to where you are studying."

That isn't to say that who you learn from isn't important, but some people get that mentality of "I can't be a good artist if I don't go to a good school." Which is absolutely untrue. So don't let him fret if he does end up attending a state school.
I think it's more like " I have better chance to become a good artist if I actually go to a good school"
of course you are going to be a way better artist than pp who go to a good art school if you practice 24/7 while that person only do his assignment but nothing else.
if you can manage to practive on you own like that , you dont even need to go school, may be some books and internet will help you to become a great artist, but the fact is there's also many other element that effect your chances , like motivation?
a better school = better enviroment + better influrence
there's a reason why people think some school is better than others...
i agree some school is way over price, but choose among good schools that have acceptable tuition instead of choosing a average school with low tuition...

[Mary Mary]

While researching OSU's Industrial Design program for myself, I came across an interesting tidbit. If you read this article, it informs you that OSU will be unveiling a new Digital Media/Computer Animation undergrad program, something that is already available to graduates, so they didn't "just" create it. The program itself has been around for a while, just not available to undergrads until now. Columbus Dispatch Article (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/02/28/OSU_design.ART_ART_02-28-08_B1_D49FV3A.html?sid=101)

Hope this helps. Good luck searching.

I bet that's the article the boys dad saw and then couldn't find again!!!

Still though, he was sort of thinking it was something that would be appropriate for our son who wants to do game design...until I pointed out that while related, game design and animation are two different fields, since game design deals with interactive environments.

I'm actually pretty happy with the choice my 'game design' son has made for school. Shawnee State is inexpensive...but has exactly the sort of program that my son wants. It took me forever to even FIND a list of what schools offered game design to begin with as the major has not found it's way onto web sites like FastWeb...or hadn't when I started searching.

We're still kicking around options for the illustration son. A lot is going to depend on his getting his portfolio whipped into shape. He's made some progress, but still has a ways to go.

[WickedEdges]

Actually, to update that previous post: I spoke with the Director of that program, and she informed me that they actually had the undergrad program denied. So, sorry for the false alarm.

From what I know about the Shawnee State program, they focus on the programming/technical side of the game design spectrum. I would make sure that your son doesn't want an art-related program before applying there.

Good luck with your continued search!

[BubbaGump]

http://www.fullertonillustration.com/

If you're interested in storyboarding, which may be intertwined with film studies, I think USC Fullerton is a good school.

Even USC Long Beach is starting to develop a good storyboarding and animation department...even Industrial design.

If you're interested in improving your ability, and you're not a trust fund baby, here's some alternatives, after you get your degree:

LAAFA dot COM
CALARTINST dot COM
CONCEPTDESIGNACAD dot COM
3KICKSTUDIO dot COM

I'm just stating schools in the local LA area....I'm sure there's more.

Just to clarify, there is NO USC Fullerton or USC Long Beach. It's CSU Fullerton and CSU Long Beach. It's not being nitpicky as this is a serious error especially for someone who might be researching schools.

[Mary Mary]

Actually, to update that previous post: I spoke with the Director of that program, and she informed me that they actually had the undergrad program denied. So, sorry for the false alarm.

From what I know about the Shawnee State program, they focus on the programming/technical side of the game design spectrum. I would make sure that your son doesn't want an art-related program before applying there.

Good luck with your continued search!

Shawnee State actually has TWO related game development programs - one is more technical and concentrates more on the programming aspects, the other is through the art department and, while covering some programming, is more focused on the art side of things. You need a portfolio to get into the art-focused program.

My game developer son is more interested in the technical/programming side of things.

[Bill]

Hi Mary,

Don't know if you're still checking this thread but... I graduated from O.U. spent a year and a half at Kent and while I only took 2 classes at CCAD I was able to be around the school for a couple of years through their Saturday morning program.

#1. Sorry for the language here but stay the FUCK away from O.U. At least in the mid 90's it was a horrible artschool teaching no technique or portfolio. If your son wanted to be an accountant then by all means O.U. It's an awesome University with a horrible art program. I graduated 13 years ago and am still recovering. Seriously. There were a few brightspots faculty wise but those were the oldschoolers who were on their way out. Unless it's a completely new regime I wouldn't get anywhere near the place.

#2. I think that Jerry Kalback is still at Kent. He's fantastic. 10 years ago Kent was focusing on mainstream editorial and advertising illustration. How much that is still true I don't know. I don't think that their students were getting enough of the fine art side. For instance none of the illo. majors new how to draw figure well. The faculty are, or at least were, very good but they work without the resources of a true artschool so a student won't have the chance to expand their perspective by the influence of some of the absent disciplines.

#3. Paying a lot of money for an education doesn't insure the ethic, true. Also true: enough drive will overcome a bad or lacking education... eventually. There are still things you need to know and I found those things at CCAD where I hadn't at the other 2. My version of overcoming a bad education was to make my way to a good school but it took about 7 years to get there and 6 more to to put that learning to use towards a respectable(hopefully) portfolio. It's a slow process when you are working a lot to pay rent and then trying to improve skill and accumulate portfolio pieces on the weekends. I really wish I'd just gone to a good school in the first place. I don't know anything about BGSU but if you want your kid to study in Ohio and be employable as some kind of illustrator after college then he needs to find a way to get to Columbus, imo.

[Mary Mary]

Yes, still checking and I appreciate the input!!

Ohio University is one of the schools that has made it back onto the 'short list' for us so I appreciate the insight! The thing about Ohio U is that it is relatively inexpensive...AND doesn't need a portfolio for admission. My son is still dragging his feet on his portfolio. It's driving me mad.

On one hand I feel like just throwing in the towel and saying, "Choose a different major if you aren't going to get a portfolio done." On the other hand I would LIKE to see him majoring in something that I KNOW he's passionate about. I mean the kid draws ALL the time...he just hasn't been pushed to FINISH much given that he's not taken art in high school (well, maybe one semester) and so has had few deadlines to work against. Then again, that 'not finishing stuff' block is something he's going to HAVE to get over if he's ever going to succeed at art school OR a career in art.

I actually agree totally about CCAD being the best place for him. But he needs a portfolio to even get in...period. I doubt that the fact that he got two $150 faculty scholarships for this years Saturday Morning Art Classes there is going to be enough to get him admitted. (Though I wish it was!) Given that he got the scholarships for SMAC I'm assuming that he's got talent that SOMEONE was impressed with! He does do pretty well on figure drawing...he gets the proportions and all that really good and he does great skeletons...but he's just dropping the ball on fleshing out his portfolio.

Granted, he's got a couple of months yet before he HAS to have his portfolio done but he doesn't seem to be making a lot of progress.

So...I'm still looking into cheaper alternatives to CCAD...and the fact that Ohio U doesn't require a portfolio for admission is attractive at the moment. If it comes right down to it I'm hoping that college level art classes might jump start his drive to finish stuff and then we can proceed from there.

At the moment though, he's dead in the water. He's got six or seven pieces started...all assignments from various places...but not finished because he's not passionate about the subject matter. I keep telling him that his sketchbook is for what he's passionate about...that still-life and landscapes are to show how well he does with basic techniques and that's what he needs to concentrate on just now. I can't say it's falling on deaf ears, but I think the pressure is getting to him.

Between the lack of progress on the portfolio and some other factors surrounding the whole college application/financial aid process- all factors totally beyond MY control, but dependent on OTHER people in my family - I'm about to start tearing my hair out!

[Mary Mary]

Oh, and he doesn't have to attend school in Ohio. It's just that if he doesn't end up at an art school...whether it's CCAD or some other art school...then I'd like to find the BEST university art department possible, preferably in Ohio. Of course even those are likely to require a portfolio.

[Bill]

Does O.U. even have a Illo. program? They had just phased it out in '95. At that point you had to rely on the fine arts department to generate work (and a degree) and that fine arts program was junk. I honestly learned more practical information in one CCAD seminar (Chris Payne) and my time around the SMAC (Ron Tardino) program than I did in all of my time at OU. At least back then OU had some good drawing instructors bu they were retiring out of being disenfranchised with the new abstract "high art" / no skill regime.
In my experience at OU not only was there no interest in teaching technique, materials, and process but you were actually looked down on for trying to find those things if it was for the sake of a job (as opposed to the gallery world).
If things have changed significantly then it's a fantastic University Experience.

As far as your son getting his portfolio together, isn't that what the SWAC program is for? ( < not snide, asking). If he has that knowledge to work with and isn't getting the work together then it's hard not to wonder how a $23,000 a year art school investment will pan out.

My experience with the schools is 10 years old now but between OU and Kent I'd at least take a good look at Kent. Their illustration and Graphic Design programs are pretty well entwined to the point he might learn enough design to find work out of school while being able to try his hand at illustration through their class series. If Jerry Kalback is still there then he would be an excellent contact who'll be very honest with you about the program.

That being said, CCAD is a different world completely than the state school experience. If getting a portfolio done would land your kid a $23,000 a year education (whoever's paying for it) and he's not getting the work done...

[Mary Mary]

Actually my first inkling that he wanted to actually go into the art field came when he told me he wanted to take portfolio development in SMAC. I orginally signed the boys up for SMAC in 7th grade just because I thought they would enjoy it...not because I had any idea that either would end up wanting to work in the field!

I think that Mr. Tardino is somewhat frustrated with my sons lack of portfolio progress as well. As well as the Saturday Morning Classes my son is also a member of the Art Explorer Post that Mr. Tardino oversees on Saturday afternoons.

But yeah...I'm having some trouble balancing the idea that he WANTS to be an illustrator with the fact that he's not getting his portfolio pulled together. I cut him some slack earlier this year because he was so involved with band, but he's had a few weeks here and still no noticable progress so we're due to have a pretty serious talk about the situation VERY soon. I've discussed the possibility of him quitting his job, or cutting down drastically on his hours, but no decision on that has been made yet.

I just wish he'd had the art experience that I did in high school. I took four years of art, despite having no plans to go into the field, and my art teacher took us through color theory and we had weekly drawing assignments, etc. We did some painting and lots of other projects. I had art instruction every day of my high school career.

In contrast my son has had 10 Saturdays a semester of SMAC, just a year of the art explorer post Saturday afternoons (mostly the same days as SMAC), and, I think, one semester of high school art.

Had I needed a portfolio at his age I'd have been all set just from high school assignments.

I never encouraged him to take art in high school, figuring that he'd get his art instruction in SMAC and that would be enough to give him a grounding in art for his personal enjoyment. Had I realized 4 years ago that there was a chance he might want to go into art I'd have been telling him to make room in his schedule for ART. (Even so, I'm not sure he'd have been able to squeeze it in.) Little did I realize that he needed the discipline that completing actual art homework assignments might have given him.

[Bill]

Art Explorers was really what I was involved with. A few years back I was in there assisting while Mr. Tardino helped me get on track with my portfolio. In cases like this I think Mr. Tardino really wishes that a student cut down on the extracurriculars to focus on portfolio, as it's portfolio that translates into scholorships.

I've seen some "OK" highschool level work get some really nice scholarships out of that program. CCAD is expensive as hell but my impression is that there are a lot of scholarship opportunities for those who have done the work.

Good Luck,

Bill

[Mary Mary]

Okay, scratching OU off my list and adding Kent back in. I like Kent better than OU to begin with. We toured OU already and neither of the boys were overly impressed with it. We ran out of time before we could go see the art department though. (We were touring more because of programs suitable for my other son, but took art boy along for the experience.)

It seems like none of the universities have an actual illustration degree, only the art schools offer that. Kent has degrees in painting, drawing, sculpture and printmaking.

I can't figure out if Kent has a portfolio requirement for admission. They appear to for consideration of advanced placement, but I can't find out if the portfolio review is a MUST for admission to the BFA program.

At the very least I want him to have several schools to apply to and having at least ONE that he could go to with a reasonable reputation for art that doesn't require a portfolio would be nice. Someplace he CAN go if he doesn't manage to get a usable portfolio pulled together. I figure that a year SOMEWHERE working on art will be beneficial on several levels, not least of which would be producing stuff on a deadline. He's either going to have to start pulling that off or reassess his goals no matter what.

I've also contemplated sending him to live with my mom for his freshman year and attending a community college near her with a fairly comprehensive selection of art classes. I don't really want to pull the rug out from under his dream unless I absolutely have to. The downside to that plan would, of course, be the fact that he would then be out of contention for the scholarships that are open only to high school students. BUT...it would be a cheaper way to figure out if he's going to perform or figure out something different to major in. Wouldn't even worry about what might or might not transfer, just send him there primarily for the art experience.

(Oddly, he's very good about completing his regular homework. Has been for years, and his grades aren't too shabby. He had a 3.46 GPA at the end of his junior year.)

[Bill]

http://vcd.kent.edu/faq/careers.html


Illustration and Graphic design fall under their Visual Communicatins department. It looks like they've expanded the Illustration major to reflect the changing times. Storyboard and Childrens book are both additions since I was there. Illo. students also get enough graphic design to be employable when they graduate.

[Mary Mary]

I looked at that VCD degree earlier and then wondered if it was TOO grahpic design for what he's interested in. Then again, he's expressed a desire to dabble in a little bit of everything in college (which foundations would do for him I think) just to get a handle on what his particular 'niche' may be.

I was thinking that even if he majored in art he could minor in the illustration/grahic design thing at Kent. (If that's where he ends up.)

When he got home last night we had a talk and he'd already spoken with someone at work about quitting. I told him that he doesn't really have to quit entirely, but cutting back to perhaps one evening a week (he pushes carts at Walmart) might be a better option. That way he would still have a little cash of his own AND something 'different' to do on Saturday evenings after he's already spent all day on art. (SMAC and Explorer Post.)

We're still going to have to have a real heart-to-heart about him not getting progress made on stuff for the portfolio. I need to point out that he can keep art as a hobby, or go for it and see if he can turn it into a career, but that regardless, he's going to have to get stuff done if he's going to do any sort of art classes in college because his art instructors aren't going to look kindly on, "Oh, I didn't get that done." They're just going to give him an 'F' and get on with their day.

I really appreciate your input!!!

[Bill]

I don't think the VCD is too graphic design. Your son IS going to want to make a living after school and honestly I'd be worried about someone trying to support themselves immediately with "just" an illustration background. I sidetracked myself by spending my first 2 years at at OU as a business major before transferring into a bad program. That said I've been working pretty diligently at it for 13 years and still don't have a job. And I didn't just start working towards it at 20 years old. Like everybody else here I was winning scholastic art awards in highschool.
If your son isn't somehow qualified at "something" coming out of school that will pay the bills then it will be a very long uphill climb. Had I to do it over again I'd have probably gotten my teaching credentials to at least have insurance, enough money to eat, the ability to relocate anywhere in the country, (someplace where there are studios) and a ton of free time (all summer, 2 weeks at christmas, a week at Easter, home at 4:00 during the year) to devote to additional classes, practicing of skills, and building of portfolio.
In my case I got out of school without the knowledge/chops to get a position and since then it's been second jobs, miserable pay, night classes, weekends and holidays spent at the drawing board... and pretty much going without any of the good things in life. Dating? pffft!!

At the the risk of being a cheese dick my mailer is here:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=130959

as an example of what hasn't gotten work so far.


This guy graduated CCAD and needed a year to find a job as an illustrator:

http://www.ericfortune.com/


Hopefully we won't be in a recession in 2013 as your son is graduating, or maybe he'll be better then than I am now but it won't ever be easy for him to get a start as a professional Illustrator.
A decent related day job would afford him the resources, security, and TIME to work up to it.

My Two Cents.

[Maxine Schacker]

There is work in motion graphics, animation, and concept art. Straight illustration is a much tougher career path at this time.

[Bill]

Yes,

Maybe I should have mentioned alternatives. There are plenty of Illustrators out there who have done development work, and plenty of develpoment artists who've done children's books. Peter De Seve, Carter Goodrich, H.B. Lewis, William Joyce, Mary GranPre, and even Mike Mignola (among many others) are a few illustrators who've done development work. Le Uyen Pham, Nash Dunnigan and Nate Wragg (among many others) have gone the other way... if it means anything Mary.

[Bill]

BTW,

Maxine,

Toronto looks like a pretty fantastic city and is first on my wish list of where I'd hope to start work. I've put together a list of about 14 studio's to whom I plan to send mailers from the AWN directory and will continue to research more. I've got about 1,700 questions I could probably pester you with but instead I hope it wouldn't be bad etiquette to ask if you'd suggest any online directories or resources that would be relevant to the Toronto animation industry?

[Mary Mary]

He does have a strong interest in concept art and animation as well as illustration.

The plan is for him to have a strong contact in the game development world who will put in a good word for him to be hired as a concept artist. Having a twin brother should be good for something, right? (Don't shoot me down...I can dream big can't I?)

We discussed the portfolio again tonight and he admits that he works best under pressure. I told him it's crunch time NOW and he better get hopping.

[Bill]

There are plenty of places out there that have "Entertainment Design" majors to point a student towards concept art. I don't know how many are in Ohio though. CCAD has had students make their way into the game field. If nothing else you should get your son the book "The Skillfull Huntsman". If you don't already have it, it's the concept design work of three students from the Art Center College for Design. I think all three have worked for Dreamworks. If he hasn't seen it already I would expect that it would provide some inspiration and motivation.

[NoSeRider]

http://www.shrunkenheadman.com/illustration/gallery.php?g=69

San Jose State University - I like what I see. Seems on par with private college entertainment design.

[mbarq]

Not much too add to this than the advice divulged, however, would like to comment on the community college option.

Don't know how stubborn your son is, nor how he'll take not going to the school of his dreams, but as a wise person on these forums once told me:

This notion that you can somehow plan your life is an idea you'd best be disabused of as soon as possible.

Going to your local CC isn't bad, the credits are cheap and more than often, the teachers also teach at state schools nearby since they need the money. In addition, if your son(s) has good grades, he will probably qualify for some sort of state merit scholarship and maybe for the Pell Grant.

Also, with the advent of extra money from scholarships, and courses that aren't as demanding as if you went to a 4yr, it's very easy to sign up for multiple classes in various disciplines.

As you said, yourself, this could be a chance for him to explore what he likes and what he doesn't before he takes the plunge into something he may not like or something he may not like as much as something else he could have liked.

This is also a great opportunity to work on his portfolio and just "take a break", shake off high school and dive into some self-exploration and introspection.

Here's a video you may find interesting I saw on the sun-sentinel (local publication in south florida) about an "A average" kid who got into Ringling and CalArts but could not afford it in anyway, so just settled for community college (just watch):

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-flzcollegecrunch1119,0,4182838.story

As has been echoed multiple times, it's not where you get your education, it's what you do with it.

[Bill]

http://www.shrunkenheadman.com/illustration/gallery.php?g=69

San Jose State University - I like what I see. Seems on par with private college entertainment design.

That Place looks awesome. Lizette Vega didn't have the strongest piece in the gally' and she's now at Bluesky.

And yes, again, you can succeed without a great education, but it takes a lot longer.

[Mary Mary]

Son would probably be okay with going to CC for a year. I don't THINK he'll be crushed if he doesn't go to art school to start with...but I'm not sure if he grasps the concept that he should at least TRY for every scholarship he possibly can this year when threre are more available to him.

He had last night off from work and we gathered up all the artwork he HAS done in the past couple of years. There's a little more of it than I thought, but not MUCH more. Then he spent the rest of the evening drawing.

Here's the thing though, and tell me if I should be fretting about it or not...he spent the evening drawing the bones of the hand. Obviously NOT something from direct observation, but rather copying drawings of bones out of a book. Honestly, I'm blow away at how well he does with skeletons. All those little bones. And he loves drawing muscles and all that too. He does well with proportions on human figures, he even has a sketch of a guy jumping down towards the viewer from a hole in the ceiling and I'm in awe of how well he has the limbs foreshortened and all that. I think I was a reasonable artist when I was his age, but I'd never have been able to draw faces from all angles the way he seems to be able to do. (He has sketch after sketch of imagined human figures...none are of actual people.)

So should I just let him get on with drawing bones and just encourage him to make the drawings on bigger paper (and not JUST in his sketch book) or do I really need to push him to do...say...a self-portrait, some still-lifes, landscapes, etc?

[Maxine Schacker]

Hi Bill,

The main problem you'll have finding work in TO is that the companies get a tax break on every Canadian they hire, and an even bigger break if the person is from Ontario! Nonetheless, we have one US graduate who was hired by an Ontario company and has been with them since graduation. They love his work and are willing to pay more to have him.

You probably have all the TO companies already, but when I get to work I'll get you the exact name of the directory. My tired brain can't recall it at the moment.

Do check out our website! The school is really rocking (as the kids say). New work (we are way behind!) from '08 will be posted any day now- tomorrow, I hope.

[Bill]

Maxine,

Thank you for the response and for any insight you might be interested in sharing. I have looked at your school's sight and am sure that MtM is a great opportunity.

[Bill]

Mary,

I'd say the best source of perspective regarding what to include in his portfolio would come from SMAC or Mr. Tardino. I do know that the more drawing from life the better off he'll be. Also, including ideas in the work is appreciated. For specifics I'd really talk to Mr. Tardino or someone involved at the school.

On The CC front I know that Columbus State has some nice facilities and couldn't be closer to CCAD. An old roomate took some of his credits there that he later applied to a PhD at Ohio State.

[Mary Mary]

Thought I'd update:

Son got portfolio done. Got accepted at CCAD. Dean's Scholarship. Also got some money as a result of one of his pieces of artwork being selected (one of 300 out of over 13,000 submitted) for the Governor's Youth Art Exhibition.

The more I learn about CCAD the more I'm glad that he's going there. I really think it's the best choice for him over a state college, despite the cost. The scholarship helps!!!

[Maxine Schacker]

Congratulations to your son, Mary. Keep us posted on his progress and experiences!

Bill, if you're a 3D animator with feature experience and/or a really good demo reel, try Starz in Toronto. They may take you despite the tax incentive to hire Canadian. They need high level 3D animators...and the NAFTA treaty means you can work in Canada (it's a bit of a stretch, but it can be presented as coming under graphic design).