Gallery commision dilema

[Lukias]

Righto.

I need peoples opinions on this because eventually I'm going to take this to my main gallery.

Through some advertising at the gallery I sell most of my work through(we're pretty matey matey.. its a professional but casual relationship) I hooked up a couple of portrait commisions. By advertising I mean, they'd displayed a couple of portrait examples I'd done of the gallery staff behind the counter. ie nothing major or spendy.
So I complete one of these commisions and naturally the gallery takes their cut. Now a few weeks later I get an email from the women I painted asking if I'd paint her husband and potentially her son. Shes casually said lets just do this without the galleries knowledge.. you know.. a "win win" situation for the client and painter. Unfortunately its one of the cardinal sins between an artist and their gallery.. for obvious reasons. It has the potential to screw your relationship and reputation for good.

Now I don't intend to do that whatsoever.. but my question is.. bar unwritten rules etc.. what, morally do think should happen in regards to the commision structure for future portraits via that initial commision?.
I mean.. do you think they should get the same cut for these next two portrait even though they had no direct hand in sourcing them?.
If so.. then what about two years from now.. or five years from now when Aunt Betty's sister inlaw wants one.. should the gallery still get a cut??. When does it end?
For sourcing the initial painting does this warrant commisions on every succesive piece till I die?


Your opinions would be greatly appreciated!

[Mirana]

I'm not a fine artist or know a thing about gallery culture, so I have a curious question... Is the gallery also somehow also your agent? I always thought a gallery was strictly getting a cut of works hung and sold from them directly. Is there otherwise some agreement that people who approach you for commissions through the gallery get a cut? I've had friends who got commissions through shows and the gallery did not get a cut. Please explain. :)

[DeadlyFreeze]

You only made that contact because of the gallery so its fair enough to give them their cut, but anything beyond that connection is void. Two degree of separation, meaning anything person she introduces you to doesn't need to go back to the gallery.

....but that's just my opinion I don't know how it really works. The whole 'art world' is pretty stupid at times so who knows.

[Elwell]

(we're pretty matey matey.. its a professional but casual relationship)

I think it's time to move beyond "matey matey" and work out exactly what your contractual relationship is and isn't, in writing.

[Lukias]

Miriana - No they're not my agent.. but I suppose theres some sort of unwritten rule that clients reffered to the artist via the gallery warrant a commision. Interesting to hear that you know of gallery/artist relationships where this doesn't apply.

Deadlyfreeze - Agreed.. the art world is pretty stupid at times.. and yeah I'd like to think that the two degrees of seperation applies aswell. This is perhaps going to be my pitch.

Elwell - Yeah something in writing needs to apply here I agree.. to be honest though, so far the 'matey matey' thing has had them treat me far better than some other galleries.
Its just that this particular commision scenario is a bit of a grey area accross the board.. and I'm asking for peoples opinions on what they think is fair. Seriously.. whats your take on this??.

Who agree's with the 'two degrees of seperation' argument?. I was curious to see if there would be a general consensus on this.. then I could confidently take this stance back to the gallery.

cheers guys yeah.

[one red cricket]

Hey Lukias,
I believe the client has made the decision for you. She could have chosen to go back to the gallery to request two more portraits (and they often do), but instead has chosen to contact you directly , I say run with it. Of course the gallery would say thank you very much if you offered them the commission from these two paintings, who says no to money in business. I realize this a a very grey area, so grey infact you can only make a decision based on your own interpretation, especially if the relationship is matey matey. This is only my opinion (as a fulltime, galleried artist) but you should be putting yourself first on this one.

Cricket

[Grief]

the gallery got their cut from the initial commission.
any spare jobs as a result of the contact established by the gallery is done on your own time and shouldnt be subject to sharing with the gallery. if the gallery wants more to milk from the artist, then they need to step in and direct you to new clients.

thats how i see it.

also get something on paper as earlier stated, know the lines you can and cannot walk before you hornswoggle yourself into a compromising predicament.

[Mirana]

Okay..."unwritten" as in the gallery director/owner has specifically discussed with you that they get a cut of any clients who commission you because they see your work at the gallery? Or only those that the gallery is the middle-man for? Or are you just making your own assumptions without anything having been discussed between you guys?

What you're talking about seems to me more of what an agent or headhunter might require, but even then clients who approach the artist on their own without the third party are free and clear. My friends who show gallery work only give cuts of works hung in, or commissioned by the gallery.

[Art_Addict]

Lukias,

Like you said, atm you have a good relationship with your gallery. I do not know the details of your contract or what your current percentage agreement stipulates but... good business relationships between artists and gallery's where both parties are satisfied I think is more the exception then it is the rule...
So I would be careful jeopardizing that... Do what you think is fair towards yourself and to the gallery.
Provided your relationship with them stays the same, offering them a cut, might open up further opportunities in the future. If they feel you're committed to them, that might be to your advantage... in all fairness...yes the lady did contact you, however it's a bit unclear to me from your initial post how you 2 were introduced?
did the gallery do that? If so... you wouldn't have had this deal in the first place.

But.. like Elwell said... try to get everything on paper in detail.

Good luck.

[NightVision]

You're not really going into detail, so it's a bit hard to know what the exact situation is. Those portraits you did for the staff, were those commisions the gallery paid for? You can't really start paying every client who refers you to new clients. The work you have hanging in the gallery, do they take a normal cut or a very low one? If it's normal, you already paid for the space taken I'd assume.
Personally I would consider giving them a ONE-TIME percentage for taking the trouble to introduce you to a client, although they could get new clients just for providing that service, who might find what they like in the gallery instead of commisioning an artist.

As an artist, if you work for a project as 'work for hire', you won't get a percentage either, no matter how succesfull it turns out, you 'd be lucky to get a bonus, and definately not a % on each toy, piece of merchandize or sequel yet to come.

I would try to figure out how much they do for you (do clients come to them asking how to get in touch with you, or do they advertise for you?) and how much they are getting paid for that (how much do they make from your sales) and go from there to determine what would be fair, to you too. And let them know what you're comfortable with, so they don't find out from someone else, bring it up casually maybe.

Good luck, talking to clients can be like dancing, trying not to step on anyone's toes, lol.

[aesir]

I wouldn't think that it would be right for the gallery to take a cut... But thats just how it sounds to me. Are you going to give the gallery a cut of everything you do? Even stuff that has no relation at all to the gallery? What if someone heard about you from a friend that saw you in that gallery? Do you give the gallery a cut then. What a about a friend of a friend of a friend?

[Lukias]

one red cricket - As a full time painter yourself its great to get your slant on it... especially one I agree with!. Where in NZ are you and where do you show?.


Grief - Exactly and yeah I'll be getting this in writing asap... and I totally agree. (these are the replies I was hoping for.. ones that align with my obvious bias) ;)

Mirana - "Okay..."unwritten" as in the gallery director/owner has specifically discussed with you that they get a cut of any clients who commission you because they see your work at the gallery? Or only those that the gallery is the middle-man for? Or are you just making your own assumptions without anything having been discussed between you guys?"

Whether known or unknown to the gallery.. if a client comes in and requests a commision from a galleried artist then yes they get a cut. I can't even recall I specific conversation but this is how its been since I started out. I'm confident other artists are under the same impression.
Its the clients referals that are the issue.
So yeah, in your example the gallery doesn't get cuts on the referals.

Art addict - the client and I were introduced on the day of the sitting. She'd seen an example of my work at the gallery. I organised a time through the gallery for the sitting and that was that.
Yeah you're right.. I would not have any follow up commisions through that same client if not for the gallery getting the client on board in the first place. But thats the big question.. do you think that warrants them getting a cut forever onwards, even years from now, even 4 families removed. Simply because they sourced the first?. I just can't see how thats justified.
over the weekend people have given me examples of how this definitley wouldn't apply in other area's of business... if you were a tradesman contracting work for example.


Nightvision - Yes the examples of the gallery staff were paid for by the gallery.
"You can't really start paying every client who refers you to new clients" You know what... thats has to be a perfect example of why the commision should stop after the first. Based on the argument that, "if not for the gallery you wouldn't have a commision at all".. then I'm also liable to pay that initial client if they refer me to a friend of theirs.. and so on and so forth. Well that just becomes stupid. Suddenly I'm alot more confident with my take on this.
They take a normal cut of the work hanging.
They have put an example on their site though the commisions so far have come via two examples leaning up behind the counter. So yes they do advertise.


aesir - Yeah exactly.. theres all these potential possibilities that are in the 'grey area'. Often it depends whether they go directly through the gallery or directly through my site but certain scenarios are vague at best.


Hey cheers everyone, all you feedback is much appreciated!

[Chris Saksida]

I would never EVER be exclusive to ANYONE unless they`re willing to pay for an exclusivity contract, period.

If the client comes to me directly, I work for them directly, if they contact the gallery, I work for the gallery.

That "mate" relationship is a dangerous one; I can be friends with the people I work with, but that friendship ends when:

1- They want me to be exclusive to them without paying for it and:

2- They are not paying me what they said.