Sheridan Art Fundamentals to Illustration

[kennygeeze]

Let the journey begin.
Hey.... long time lurker, first time poster.

My name's Ken and I'm in the art fundamentals program at sheridan this year. I'm gunning to get into the illustration program for next year.
3rd time is the charm as I've already applied twice out of highschool.... but this is the first year I've actually had access to figure drawing and teachers that encourage representational art.... so here we go. I might actually have a chance this time with resources if nothing else.

Any tips would be helpful.

This is type of level I was at going into sheridan.

http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/psychoticjess/jkenper.jpg

I was doing observational drawing, but no formal nude life drawing or anything. I mostly did portraits of people. Portaiture is my favourite thing to do.

Here's what I was doing mid-september as extra life drawing sessions started up.

MID SEPTEMBER

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/gesture.txt

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/15-20minute.txt

NOVEMBER 10

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/drawing5.txt

25-minute pose done from extra life drawing class last Monday.

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/drawing6.txt

Another one from that same class.

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/drawing7.txt

This is a quick sketch in black conte of my room-mate while he was watching TV.


And that's it for now. Hopefully I can use this thread to chart my progress at well as get some crits.

Thanks guys!

Ken

[endregan]

You were already pretty good going in!

the life drawing is sure helping, although the shots are a bit dark its hard to tell some of the forms.

Good luck I hear its a great program..!

I am in last year of highschool and applying to art fundmentals at sheridan as well. Hope to make it in ! :)

[bigmonkeynuts]

Good stuff Kenny, keep at it.

I'm at Sheridan as well, first year in animation. I went through the art fundamentals program last year.

Your proportions are looking pretty good for someone at this time in the fundies course, at least compared to most students I was with last year. Although I think you are suffering from what almost everyone suffers from when starting out... you get ahead of yourself too quickly in the drawings.

For example, some parts of your 25 minute poses look good (like the breast area on the sitting pose), but others are hard to make out and seem over-worked. In addition, some of the proportions in the poses are off, yet the entire drawing is very rendered. This is one thing I and many others have trouble with. You want to get to the good stuff. You want to start shading. The truth is though, without a solid under drawing, no ammount of shading can save the work.

This may sound very boring to you, but I suggest you spend more time with lines only. Get those lines down right. Measure the proportions. Compare every part of the pose with every other part until your proportions are on. Draw very lightly at this stage and only when you are satistfied with the layout of the drawing should you begin to place darker finished lines. It's good to mix lines up as well and not have the same line over the entire figure. Think of things like pressure, weight, shadow, tension... all of these factors can influence the weight of the line you put down.

By all means continue practicing tone, it is more fun and very necessary for drawing what you see infront of you, but I would seriously spend time with lines. The Illustration department will not be expecting a portfolio of life drawings full of light and shadow and lots of rendering involved. What they do expect are drawings that show a good understanding of human structure and proportion.

Oh yeah, and keep up with the life drawing as much as you can. There really is nothing better to improve you draftsmanship. I understand you attend the extra life drawing sessions. Good! Go to as many as you can. I tried to make at least 15 hours of extra life drawing a week last year, and man did it pay off. I only wish I had the time to go as much this year, but unfortunately the workload is a little more intense :) . Also, I don't know if you know about the extra life drawing sessions in room 131 each night of the week at 7:00. They are open to all art students of the school, and you can get some input from students in illustration if you see any in there. Next door to that room is the illustration extra life drawing at the same time, and in there they do longer poses, perhaps hour long ones. You may want to sneak in there and get you feet wet in lengthy poses, after all thats what you'll be doing next year.

If you have any questions for me just ask.

[kennygeeze]

Thanks very much for all the great input... I didn't think I'd be getting such a length reply. Thanks.


So, when you say concentrate on the lines I should be sticking with contours?

And as far as the measuring in concerned... I know two ways of doing it (I think)
By holding a pencil up to a portion of the figure and then marking with the thumb how large it is and then comparing that to different portions of the figure.
The other one is to look at angles.... like if an imaginary line could be projected between the two knees where would it be? and mark it...

Are those valid or is there another better way? I've tried using angles some in extra figure drawing, but I've never used the pencil measuring method outside of actual drawing class.

Thanks for the tips for the portfolio as well. I went to an illustration information session and although they showed work from the actual course, I wasn't exactly sure what they expected in portfolio.... they kept glossing over it aside from the "drawing from observation deal"

Do have any of your work online?

Endragen: thanks as well. So, I guess I'll be seeing you next year :) I don't know an awful lot about the admissions process for art fundamentals, but to get in you don't need a portfolio... I think it's just a highschool diploma (that's all I had)

[carpal]

I had a nice long reply going here and then my computer crashed and I got really angry, but here I go again in a more condensed version...

I know for a fact I have seen you before because I haven't missed a monday fundies extra life yet... although I am usually tired and sleep on my newsprint it looks like I am going to have to track down whoever is using the red and black conte and say hi.

I think monkey pretty much summed up everything, only things I can add is watch your line weight and variation. don't get too dark too quick, especially on those outside contours. Otherwise yeah, you are doing well. so is everyone else who is going to extra life, they have really eclipsed most of the rest of the fundies kids.

Keep on hitting up life drawing until february, (I am kind of jealous because I am applying to a school back in the states and I have to have my portfolio in in december, I cry every night) Anyway, see you around perhaps.

-PZ-

[bigmonkeynuts]

Well, contours, yes, but I don't mean sitting there moving the chalk over the contour really slowly to get the most accurate line possible or refining and refining contours until they're over worked... basically when i said focus on lines I meant don't worry about the rendering so much.... Focus on the first step, which is getting those proportions down. Also indicating structure, such as anatomy landmarks that show up on the surface. Basically the idea is to save the tone for later. Even this year in animation we wont be covering tone until next semester, and even then not much, not really until next year I'm guessing. And still, the tone we use is to show form, always. Here is a poor example of mine:

http://www.geocities.com/skull_monkey/2minnude.txt

Keep in mind this is only a two minute pose, so it is greatly simplified. Notice the tone, just big thick strokes with the side of the chalk down the side of the forms of the body, showing its 3d qualities. Some call this method of shading as finding 'plane breaks', where the surface planes of the form break and change direction. Again, in a two minute pose, these are greatly simplified, but show the idea. Here are some other examples, both 15 minutes in length:

http://www.geocities.com/skull_monkey/15minnude1.txt

http://www.geocities.com/skull_monkey/15minnude2.txt

Some of the proportions are off (see, i told you people get carried away with the fancy stuff before the drawing is ready, I do it too!). But yeah, the tone is there to emphasize form and structure. Too many times does a solid drawing get ruined from poor rendering. In time you'll be doing all the fancy stuff, and extra long poses where you can really see the model and spend a lot of time with rendering. But now you should be focussing on form and structure, honestly thats what the portfolio reviewers will be concerned with most.

So yeah, these are some ways you can use tone, but not let it screw with the drawing. In some of the ones you posted the structure of the model is hidden by your rendering.

As far as measuring, those are good tools. Personally I never bothered with holding the pencil up, but of course it does work. Angles I use all the time. You can extend the lines from limbs and whatnot to see where things line up. Other things to consider: Shapes. Look for overall shapes. When drawing the arm, don't think "arm", look at the abstract shape you see and put it down. This can also be applied to negative space. Take a look at the blue 15 minute pose of the sitting man I posted. That odd shape making up the space between his legs is a negative shape. I drew the legs, then looked at the negative shape between them and corrected things. Going from positive to negative shapes as you draw can really help.

You should really talk to some illustration students for info of the portfolio process, as I only know what friends who have made it in have mentioned to me. Go to extra life drawing and ask some folks who are making nice drawings to come over and critique your stuff when the model breaks. Most people are more than willing to help.

[kennygeeze]

PZ, cool. I'll keep an eye out for you next time I'm in the Monday extra life class....
It's weird that you say you haven't missed a single one. I find that when I go to the 2 o'clock art fundies x life I may be one of the only 3 people in the room. So, you'd think I'd know who you are... but.... do you go to the later classes?

In fact last Monday for the first hour it was only me and the model.... a drawing teacher from art fundamentals even walked in and started drawing with me because the room was so empty.


Monkey, thanks very much for posting the examples. I read what you wrote a couple of times and I think I understand a little bit about using the 'plain breaks' or how you described them.

So.... correct me if I'm wrong, but the different between the value I'm laying down on my drawings and the value you lay down on yours is.....
You only put value down to indicate structure? Like... if the figure was back lit and and dark shadow from his arm extended across his chest or something you wouldn't draw it while using the technique you demonstrated? Only value that shows form rather than obstructs it?

Thanks again.

I'll post some more work next time I attend lifedrawing. This week was pretty hectic and I'm currently struggling to get caught up again in my 2D class so I didn't get another chance to go.


Thanks, guys.

[kennygeeze]

ANd looks as though my free webspace providor keeps on crapping out on me... so looks like I might have to go out and purchase some online space.... unless of course sheridan is nice enough to give me webspace (doubt it)
Anyways... yeah. Frustrating.

[bigmonkeynuts]

At this stage it is a good idea to treat value as a way of showing structure and form. Of course in time you will be doing other things, long studies where atmophere, colour and subtle changes on the surface of the skin will influence your values. Also cast shadows, as you mentioned. Basically it's just wise to keep things simple now, when learning. When I was in your position last year animation students told me to draw the entire figure with boxes at first... the most simple form to indicate the relatively accurate simplified forms of the body. A box for the ribcage, a box for the pevlis, a box for the head... boxes for the limbs, ect. This is reflected in the simple tone used in the two minute pose I showed in my last post. It's much easier to simplify a complex human form into boxes and get the weight, proportions, ect right at first. Practice simple at first, and work your way up. As you learn you can experiment more.

Take a look at the 25 minute reclining woman pose you posted... the extended leg in the middle of the picture has received a lot of rendering and as a result some of it looks a little mushy. By deciding on a light source, and applying that light to the simple forms you use to construct the body, you will create a believable figure in space. 25 minutes gives you some freedom though, so you may be able to expand on those simplified forms (since a leg is not a box, there are muscles and fat and bones popping up here and there). Although going back to my first comment, you may want to spend as much time as possible getting the figure accurately placed on the page, getting those proportions down. In my drawing class last year in art fundamentals, I would sometimes spend 50 minutes of an hour long pose just mapping out the figure... Checking the proportions and whatnot, and spend the final 10 minutes with more final lines actually making the drawing. Sounds crazy but it will help. The end result was an hour long simple line drawing, but the lines were acurrate and the proportions were on. Just because it's a long pose doesn't mean you have to get crazy with the shading. It's hard to fight but it is so damn easy to overwork something without realizing it if you don't know what you're doing.

Remember not to take this stuff to strictly... Some of these things I'm telling you are ways to help you learn, help you make new discoveries in drawing. The illustration department (from my point of view) seems to focus a lot of its life drawing on drawing exactely what you see infront of you. We in animation, on the other hand, tend to simplify as much as possible, to use shorthand as often as we can, letting the eye fill in the rest. Not to put anyone down, but in my opinion many of the animators life drawings just look much more solid because of this simplified approach... there is no nonsense involved: find what you need to draw, and represent it to the viewer in a simple way so they can understand it clearly (we treat life drawing this way because animation drawing has the exact same philosophy). This of course can result in drawing that do NOT show exactely what the artist was looking at. The best way is to mix these two views I think. At least spend time practicing different ways.

So in the end some of these things I'm showing you are what we learn from our life drawing teachers in animation, but you may not necessarily learn in illustration. Regardless, they are useful tools to help, and can really add some solidity to your work. Experiment with them, and experiment with your own ideas. If you never stop experimenting you will never stop growing.

(btw sorry if these posts are a little long. I get carried away when I start talking about something, can't help it)

[carpal]

Originally posted by kennygeeze
PZ, cool. I'll keep an eye out for you next time I'm in the Monday extra life class....
It's weird that you say you haven't missed a single one. I find that when I go to the 2 o'clock art fundies x life I may be one of the only 3 people in the room.

hmmm, I have class from 10-2 but I usually skip out of there and head over to life drawing. there is the one from 10-2 and then 2-5 and when I have gone come early I notice that there are usually only 1 or 2 in there. But no, I make it to the monday, tuesday, and wednesday sessions religiously.

(thanks for the long replies monkeynuts, they are nice to read and help a lot)

[kennygeeze]

Monkey: Thanks very much. I understand alot better now what you mean. And the long posts are great... often times when I just get breif tips I'll understand at first, but then I'll try it out and find that I have no idea what I'm doing. So, your advice is absolutely excellent. Thanks again. I'll be sure to post some examples of my work when I start putting your tips into practice.

You know when the illustration students and animation students sell prints of their artwork? Are first year students included in that?

.PZ the Monday figure drawing class that I usually go to is the 2-5 one.... so I'm probably one of the 1 or 2 people that you've seen in there at that time. I'll probably be at that one Monday... I'll keep an eye out.
Last Monday was the first time that I went in a couple weeks so that might be why.

[Lev_0]

Hold a ruler out infront of you vertically and horizontally and match points up. Then draw horizontal/vertical lines on your paper to match the things on the paper. You'll catch almost all your drawing errors like that and improve a lot, gl!

[kennygeeze]

Lev, so if I do that type of measuring with the ruler I'll eventually develope better perception and be able to not use it at some point?

The only thing that bothers me about the measuring tricks (besides for angles) is that am I going to develope a sense with the measuring system and eventually be able to to draw without it, or is my accuracy going to be defined by whether I use the measuring trick every single time I do a drawing or not.

I'm just wondering how it works. Thanks for a reply.

[kennygeeze]

More lifedrawing done in the monday class.

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/ldgesture.txt

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/ld2.txt

I decided I was getting too close to to starting to over-work things again, so I was attempting some of Monkey's suggestions on these next ones.

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/ld4.txt

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/ld1.txt

and this is a portrait I'm attempting of a friend. Done mainly from a photograph.... I've drawn her in person before, but nothing more than a little chalk sketch. I wanted to give her something better.

http://www.geocities.com/kennygeeze/ld3.txt

.PZ, I was in the monday class and I don't think I saw you.... there were alot more people there though... more than other weeks.