Martial Law?

[Blahm]

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_homeland_090708w/

would appear that martial law is just around the corner? or just beefing up the 'grid'?

[J Wilson]

I think it's finally recognizing that the government hasn't exactly been on the ball in helping out our own people when it comes to natural disasters. A little more focus on the problems within our own borders is a good idea.

[kingshaj]

we could never have the resources to truly occupy our own country. iraq could fit in illinois.

[Peter Coene]

we could never have the resources to truly occupy our own country. iraq could fit in illinois.
But our people seem a bit more controllable.

[s.ketch]

If the US' population is sheeple then why would there need to be martial law or any physical occupation? Any "normal" citizen would comply with the government without having to resort to force.

Seems kind of contradictory don't you think? The people in tin foil hats can't have it both ways.

[kingshaj]

But our people seem a bit more controllable.

we are happy and patriotic:moon:

there really isn't a revolution in the wings here, not even much reform

i dont think we are more controllable, just more content, despite the hardships,
most aren't that mad. and wherever this country is headed i doubt soccer moms will go Watts, any time soon.

i was simply posing the hypothetical that if there was a similar hatred here, for an occupying force, they'd be as effective as they are elsewhere.

regular police forces have been kicked out of a few US cities, temporarily ...there is some small precedent. where even swat and the natl. guard had to retreat.

hopefully reassuring BLAHM that we wont be in a police state any time soon.

its the riskiest sloppiest most unpredictable, least effective form of social control. (did i mention the cost?)

BuckWeisel: we aren't sheeple more like cattle We graze, ruminate...an occasional "running of the bulls" ... then just all stampede off a cliff if its seems like a good idea that day.

[Peter Coene]

regular police forces have been kicked out of a few US cities, temporarily ...there is some small precedent. where even swat and the natl. guard had to retreat.

hopefully reassuring BLAHM that we wont be in a police state any time soon.
As a nation, probably not. However, in areas where natural disasters occur there is often the existance of a temporary police state. In the case of Katrina I heard about some fairly questionable procedures. (including the confiscation of personally owned firearms)

I'm not saying thats whats going on here, but I think it wise to be on the lookout for anything that has the possibility of going in that direction.

[Blahm]

Well i feel like we live in a police state already, but that aside, what i believe that this is effectivly doing is getting people used to the idea of seeing army trops in major cities and towns etc. Yes this could be something useful in the arena of disaster realife, but why the enficise on employing non leathal weapons? Crowd control is important when damming a levi i guess.

My guess is once this mechinism is in place there will be some kind of terrorist attack and in turn forcing people to accept this "solution". But that is just my opinion. Having been in the army i have trouble accepting their humanitarian agendas.

All of the "extremist Islam" propaganda being circulated by the media gatekeepers is increasing as well. Did anyone find that free DVD documentary that was put in many newpapers across the country? This inflamitory nonsence has a very specific political purpose.

[Sudsy]

Looks like a direct result of Hurricane Katrina, and the ill-prepared LA State agencies crying for Federal Aid and throwing fits that the Federal Government didn't come to they're aid in time... While they sat with thumbs up they're collective arse as the Hurricane approached... Meanwhile, next door in Mississippi, the Governor declared a state of emergency days before the hurricane hit and got FEMA to preposition assets for recovery and evacuation...

I think its sad that the Federal Government gets more authority that the States have had for years. This is the direct result of the Feds saving face. Its not the end of the free world however, I suspect under a decent minded Administration it shouldn't be abused. However, I am naturally suspicious.

Disasters are what State agencies are best at. Its what the local authorities should already be prepared for as the first responders! It starts at the town/city, county, and state levels. Heck, governors even have the ability to ask other governors for aid! Why does every governor seem to cry to the Federal Government for aid first?

I'm part of an organization that takes the place of the National Guard in the event of disaster when the National Guard is deployed overseas, or even to augment the National Guard when there is a disaster, along with all the other State Agencies. I see no reason for a Combat Brigade in the Active Federal Service to be put on alert for disaster across this country, unless its something that happens in the area around were the Brigade is stationed! Even then, the Federal Government needs to ASK the State Government IF they need help. But thats just too old fashioned ain't it...

Don't panic yet! I'd write a letter to your Senator and Representative, along with your Governor! Sure, you might get a form letter back, but when you consider how few people do actually write they're legislators and government, you'd be amazed at how much your letter might actually be read...

[Jason Ross]

"They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack."

I wonder if my post of "really good intelligence or preparations for false terror" applies.


The 1st BCT’s soldiers also will learn how to use “the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded,” 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.

jgG45Lvhow0

[Cthogua]

I do find it a bit disturbing how the clip with the riot/protest was framed "A mob is on the attack" huh? It was some kids throwing rocks, fire works, and bottles at armored, shield wielding police who are allowed to gas, beat, and torture(pain compliance) you. Then followed immidiately by Mr. Hardcore saying, "Its a tactical nightmare for a soldier" and then saying "the modern battlefield is so complex the warfighter needs options" That kinda language is really dangerous when talking about civil unrest...So police are warfighters now? I'm not of the opinion that we're in immidiate danger of a police state or anything like that...but like has already been said, it doesn't need to go that far. As long as it looks like you still have rights like the right to assemble and free speech then you don't need to make legislation to remove it. Anyone not protesting within their "free speech zone" is a rioting criminal though. I do applaud the seeming accuracy of the ADS, but it's use to quell dissent seems almost too powerful to be used in anything other than an actual military conflict.

The increasing militarization of the police frightens me, and that tired old argument "If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear" is bullshit anyway...What if they decide what you're doing is wrong? Sure stockpiling bomb making materials is certainly something that should be looked into, but with the attitude of preemptive detainment and arrests, how far up the speculation chain does that go? I had a copy of the anarchists cookbook when I was in high school...but I had no intention of blowing anything other than some bottles in my backyard up. What about visiting websites, or saying key words over the cellphone or IM? Say you want to see for yourself what some blacklisted group is actually saying...is that cause enough? The problem is these actions can always be defended by invoking the fear of terrorism. At what point does self-preservation become self-destruction?

[Peter Coene]

I do applaud the seeming accuracy of the ADS, but it's use to quell dissent seems almost too powerful to be used in anything other than an actual military conflict.

I agree. I also think that in the odd event that revolution would be warranted this thing puts way too much power in the hands of the government.

It also bothers me that it seems to have been designed specifically for use on American civilians. In other countries most Americans wouldn't pay attention to the fact that lethal force is being used by our military, therefore the higherups would feel no need to put the cash into research that the ADS probably required. It seems that the US is expecting some sort of uprising and wants to be able to quell it without pissing off the rest of the population.

[Cthogua]

I agree. I also think that in the odd event that revolution would be warranted this thing puts way too much power in the hands of the government.

It also bothers me that it seems to have been designed specifically for use on American civilians. In other countries most Americans wouldn't pay attention to the fact that lethal force is being used by our military, therefore the higherups would feel no need to put the cash into research that the ADS probably required. It seems that the US is expecting some sort of uprising and wants to be able to quell it without pissing off the rest of the population.

On one hand, how could you expect them to do anything different? What reason could they have to NOT use the most potent technology available to quell uprisings/dissent. That rational is already being used to justify unwarranted wire tapping and data mining. The ADS is also the perfect PR weapon. They don't have to kill anyone, which strategists are realizing only emboldens resistance, but they have the power to disperse any group they choose thus retaining control over who is and isn't allowed to be somewhere, and controlling the discourse of a protest.

On the other hand, I think military weapons technology has no place as a means to police a supposedly democratic society. By upping the stakes they're really only asking for an arms race with demonstrators/protesters/revolutionaries. By creating free speech zones, then using suppressive technology like this, they don't have to take you're freedom of speech or assembly for you to have effectively lost it. Do I think there's some smokey dimly lit room where a bunch of old white men in suits are plotting how to enslave the people of the world? Absolutely not. That DOES not mean however that increased control, and decreased privacy and individual freedomes might not be an emergent trait of an increasingly technologically advanced society, where the engine of capitalism has been channeled into producing weapons systems, and military communications and networking technology. A state would of course use the most advanced means at it's disposal to ensure it's continued existence. There are technological trends in the other direction though, that ultimately benefit the stateless, or the anti-state. The unrestricted internet, wireless technologies, and increasingly smaller and higher quality recording devices being the biggest. No longer do groups require leaflets and direct word of mouth to spread their message. It's become much more difficult to control what information gets out of a certain area in terms of video of photographic, audio, and video evidence of actions. The main means of control in favor of the state at that point becomes government friendly, corporate controlled media. Once again, we don't need state run media, or to revoke the freedom of the press if the private entities that do run the media are in bed with the state. Then all they have to do is ridicule or otherwise attempt to discredit independent media sources to maintain a lock on the information people get and what their opinions on the matter are.

It's definitely going to be an interesting future, one way or the other.

[Lukias]

It seems that the US is expecting some sort of uprising....

Indeed it does, doesn't it. I think there will be an unplesant event soon.. its been alluded to throughout the media aswell.. asthough something is brewing. This I bet will give perfect cause for martial law. Watch as human rights violations skyrocket and fall upon increasingly def ears.

[kingshaj]

zombie virus

[Lukias]

I was thinking more along the lines of millions of unicorns taking to arms.
THINK ABOUT IT.

[Wake Up!]

0Y5jT58T3Tw

[fattkid]

Yep, the wheels are in motion.......not any time "soon" I'd guess, maybe like 5 or 10 years or so, but yeah, we are being coralled into a totalitarian police state indeed. Marketing 101. The government creates a problem, then "sells" us a solution thet we would otherwise have rejected, manipulating the masses through fear (terrorists are out to get you!), ignorance (They hate us for our freedom!), and manipulation of wealth/money, and resources (gas, oil, food etc.).

The laws have already been passed to facilitate it....

-Military Commissions Act of 2006
-John Warner Defense Authorization Act (2006)
-NSPD 51 (2007)
-Protect America Act of 2007
-The Homegrown Terrorist Act of 2007
(off the top of my head, to name a few)

The infrastructure is now being set up to enforce it....

Dept. Of Homeland Security
FEMA
Real ID
Fusion Centers
Infragard
Choicepoint
(again, off the top of my head, to name a few)

Once the infrastructure is in place, we are basically one "emergency" away from dictatorship.

Who really owns and controls the U.S.?
-Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderbergs, Federal Reserve, "World" Bank, and the "International" Monetary Foundation (IMF).

Time to start taking a little responsibilty and doing your homework, folks.

Fascist Dictatorship 101 by Adolf Hitler:
- Staged terrorist attacks against his own country (Reichstag Fires)
- Passed a bunch of laws stripping the citizens of their rights to "protect them from terrorists" (Fire Laws)
- Manipulate the masses through fear, propaganda, and fervent nationalism
- Passed laws making himself exempt from criminal prosecution for the acts he committed or was about to commit
- Convinced the masses that a genocidal military campaign was the solution to their problems

Sound familiar?

Other interesting things to read up on......

- The North American Union - the merging of the U.S, Canada, and Mexico. I'm guessing this is part of the "solution" that will be sold to us to remedy our "problems" in 5 or 10 years.
-The history of the Federal Reserve, which is a privately owned and operated corporation. That's right, our economy is manipulated and controlled for the profit of private individuals.
http://political-resources.com/fedres/index.htm
-The attempted military coup in 1934 in the United States, called "The Business Plot", orchestrated by the ruling elite bankers and heads of industry (including Prescott Bush, George Bush's grandfather), in an attempt to take control of the U.S. government and establish a fascist dictatorship. Hey, isn't that what's happening now? What a wacky coincidence!
- Find out who was indicted under the "Trading With Enemy Act" after WWII. Interesting to learn where some of the Bush family fortune came from.
-The History of the C.I.A.
-MK Ultra, Operation Northwoods, Operation Paperclip
-Eisenhower's farewell address to the United States in 1960 (he warned us about what is happening now)
-False Flag Attack
- The Rockefellars and the Rothschilds


Recommended Reading -

Hegemony Or Survival - Noam Chomsky
Failed States - Noam Chomsky (a review of this book when it came out was scheduled to be aired on NPR, but was pulled at the last minute. Curious why this book was censored from public radio?)
Confessions Of An Economic Hitman - John Perkins - outlines what "foreign policy" really means
Blowback, and Nemesis - Chalmers Johnson - more info on U.S. "foreign policy" and American history that you won't see on TV
The Most Secret Science - Archibald E. Roberts - Written in the early eighties. Explains what is happening now.



Documentaries:

Check out stuff by John Pilger (War On Democracy, etc.), Adam Curtis (The Trap, etc.), Greg Palast (American Blackout, which he said was banned from American airwaves, etc.), Fiat Empire, Terrorstorm

There's a lot more info out there than this, but it's a good start.

If you live in a major metropolitan area, check out your local town hall or independant bookstores for lecturers or speakers that are touring and sharing their insights on what is happening. Here in Seattle every 2 weeks or so there are authors/academics etc. coming through town and speaking. (Seattle Town Hall and Elliot Bay Books, fyi)

I'm not saying I'm "right" or this stuff is "true", but after the last few years and a few hundred hours of doing my homework,trying to figure out what 9/11, the occupation of the Midele East, fraudulent elections, tanking economy etc. are all about, these are the conclusions I've come to. And I have found many, many successful, intelligent people who have come to the same conclusions.

Hate to sound cliche, but freedom isn't free.......I think it's time we started taking a little responsibility for our country here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

[Jason Ross]

The ADS is actually a byproduct of this technology with the "volume" turned down
.
IcmI6UnR4gg

There have been reports of this weapon being used on people in Iraq. Like the ADS there is a Humvee mounted version. Inside cars there were corpses with the head of the victim fried to the bone yet the body and clothing from the shoulders down were intact. Here is a short 3 part documentary on where the "mysterious" weapon was used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oe92UbdoIY

[kingshaj]

the idea of the USID makes me ill,
although ive spent the night in jail for walking home from school, not having my wallet on me.

[TheJester]

Guys, as an outsider, and having visited the US very recently, my humble opinion is that police state is allready in your houses. I honestly felt violated just by walking around in the streets of Manhattan!

The sad thing is, that talking with american citizens, I realised that many feel safe under these circumstances. The whole nation is misguided that the problem with terrorism and anti-patriotic behaviour in general, is not the goverment policy, but the fact that "everyone hates USA", so we have to find "everyone", and hunt them down by any means.

I say that not at all naively. I witnessed face controls in public transportation, I recieved weird looks from officials everywhere, because I'm not caucasian, but the problem is not what I recieved, as a foreigner. The real problem is that people in the States are under more and more surveillance every day. And they don't feel violated, they don't react, because the System makes them believe that it's O.K., as long as you're not a bad guy, this has to go on to catch all the bad guys there are.

[Cthogua]

And it goes to a whole new level with this...

Homeland Security Detects Terrorist Threats by Reading Your Mind (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,426485,00.html)

[kingshaj]

i realize this is unbearably cliche (eyes all roll) but:
ive begun re-reading 1984 because of this thread....
and im an hour into it and i can not believe how uncannily on point it is.

re: all of the above..but, perhaps more interestingly, he hints as to how we all let it happen slowly ..and what exactly is believed to be gained in the socio-political landscape by his fictitious world govts.


its the underpinnings of this book that have caught me off guard ...and were apparently way over my head on the last read..

[GhostValkyrie]

Perhaps someone should step in and take some damage from both sides.

I don't like taking sides, and sometimes it is really hard not to. However; people need to think about where they're going and who they're banking on. These things happen because people let it happen, and imagine if some of these measures were never put into place. How would our civilization have advanced if we didn't allow some of these outrageous and immoral events?

On one side, you have critically left-brainers that believe control is the only way to move forward. Without a structure, many people would meander throughout life wrecking havoc. It makes sense, but their means by which they reach ends if horrible and leads to destruction.

The right-brainers think that it's a peaches n' cream when absolute freedom is granted, and people are left to their own devices. What would happen if everyone marched on Washington and 'put a stop to this'? What we have would fall apart, everything we've worked for would go out the window and we would face another civil war. Likely others nations would turn the game on us and have to quell the unrest. A nightmarish free for all would ensue and everything would be set back many years. If you think the economy and martial are bad now, wait until you destroy what little good there is and others rise up.

PMCs and foreign militaries would jump on the chance to conquer the bully and get a piece of the pie.

I don't like a lot of the things we're doing, and I believe it to be wrong; We should try and think about this logically and morally. If we keep choosing one-sided paradigms we're going to continue this cycle. I don't like the idea of globalization because it gives the chance for the rise of a global dictatorship. Sometimes though, it would make sense for the world to have a banner of our global prosperity, commerce, and community.

How we ever going to take to the stars and move beyond what we have when we're too busy destroying each other and drawing borders on this world?

I'll admit I let myself be a victim to one side before, and the other. From my experiences and insight into both ideologies; I've found myself in the middle.

Who here is going to go out and stage a revolt, seriously? No one. You'll lose everything you have. Even if you win, we'll find ourselves on the street, under bridges, invaded, gas prices will be cheap compared to the result of domestic unrest, families will be even more ripped apart, the country would fold in on itself and it could set a horrible precedent for the rest of the world.

Seriously, how different are you people? Are any of you thinking of the consequences of your own actions, or are you simply thinking of how it effects you? Perhaps many of you should incorporate yourselves into the machine, and help to change it's direction rather than standing in front of it or seeking to beat it with a wrench.

Even at that... I'll have to finish this later.

The point is, think about the consequences of your actions or the actions of others. Think about your side, question your side and maybe even try to understand the other side. After lots of reading and looking into the conspiracy theories and comparing it to my own experiences in the military - it's obvious we're in an empire, and one that is already socialist. However; when questioning those things and thinking about the other side of it, I've realized it's not so black and white. And as horrible the things are that have happened, some good has happened and perhaps a better future is possible because of them.

[kingshaj]

as someone in the middle of this debate (my posts are all over the place..lol)

i dont think anyone here has advocated anarchy ..just want the camera out of the bathroom.

im assuming the "sides" you refer to are the sides of the political spectrum?
if so, both ideologies demand personal freedom, and a lack of governmental intervention in personal lives.

both the red and blue are terrified of the above...it might be the one issue that is agreed upon.
the only question left is ...is it really happening? or is it just an earnest attempt at protecting the populace? or just pure "tin-foilery"

personally i'm on the fence.

EDIT: if i've misunderstood your definition of the word "sides" could you then mean ..pro or anti surveillance?


ps:as i read Orwell is referring to this debate as "blackwhite" the idea that you need a populace that can believe "it" is happening and yet find that same idea preposterous simultaneously...providing a unique mix of paranoia and aloofness ..fear and confidence.

in short to get used to being conflicted about the reality of any piece of information. and becoming comfortable in that space he refers to as "blackwhite"
and "doublethink", is encouraged to get to this space. ..to eventually become physically incapable of choosing a "side".


i realize this is just of course a work of fiction having more to do with stalin and trotsky than western imperialism.
-

-

[Peter Coene]

i realize this is unbearably cliche (eyes all roll) but:
ive begun re-reading 1984 because of this thread....
and im an hour into it and i can not believe how uncannily on point it is.

re: all of the above..but, perhaps more interestingly, he hints as to how we all let it happen slowly ..and what exactly is believed to be gained in the socio-political landscape by his fictitious world govts.


its the underpinnings of this book that have caught me off guard ...and were apparently way over my head on the last read..

I always liked 1984, but Huxley's Brave New World always seemed more on point to me. I guess it depends on how you look at things, but 1984 made the totalitarian govt seem so austere whereas the BNW form was more seductive (if you were in the upper class) and seemed like what we have already gotten ourselves into; a world where nobody cared if the government watched so long as they could enjoy doing whatever they wanted to do.

As with us, the reason nobody is complaining is because they still get to keep their TVs, their porn, their games, and whatever other silly senseless junk makes them happy.

[kingshaj]

I always liked 1984, but Huxley's Brave New World always seemed more on point to me. I guess it depends on how you look at things, but 1984 made the totalitarian govt seem so austere whereas the BNW form was more seductive (if you were in the upper class) and seemed like what we have already gotten ourselves into; a world where nobody cared if the government watched so long as they could enjoy doing whatever they wanted to do.

As with us, the reason nobody is complaining is because they still get to keep their TVs, their porn, their games, and whatever other silly senseless junk makes them happy.

yes fantastic book....touches on anti depressants,a genetically engineered caste system. and predicts muzak!


Whereas Orwell's vision is very influenced by post war england and russia (wrote it in '47), and used alot of the fresh memories of breadlines and shoelessness and news reels, to tell his tale. (thus all the austerity )

he makes the point through "Goldstein" that a truly sedate society will eventually collapse...thus, he posits, the need for constant war, to unite and divide us simultaneously keeping the nation strong in its division and unity. celebrated in something called "hate-week" .

the cost of war keeping the above true and the rewards of war are re-invested to keep the cycle going.
and has a fascinating bit about the necessity for an unbeatable yet hoplessly inefficient military.
the necessity to use the lowest of your military tech. in the largest quantities. ..in the book they use "old fashioned" weapons and fight primarily in africa the middle east and the antarctic.

..but it does take place in a post capitalist world...so he certainly was no psychic.

..although he does explain the removal of capitalism through a sort slow evolution of a credit system. one never quite owns anything but nothing is communal either..sort of a perpetual almost "paid off" state. (as described in the fictional "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism", by the fictional "Emmanuel Goldstein")

[GhostValkyrie]

..but it does take place in a post capitalist world...so he certainly was no psychic.


We are in a post capitalist world, somewhat. The blending of socialism and capitalism has spawned corporatism.

[Peter Coene]

..but it does take place in a post capitalist world...so he certainly was no psychic.

..although he does explain the removal of capitalism through a sort slow evolution of a credit system. one never quite owns anything but nothing is communal either..sort of a perpetual almost "paid off" state. (as described in the fictional "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism", by the fictional "Emmanuel Goldstein")

We are in a post capitalist world, somewhat. The blending of socialism and capitalism has spawned corporatism.
I have to definately agree with GV on this one. We are not living in a truly capitalist system and have been steadily moving away from capitalism. I would leave this alone as a sepparate political discussion, but it does apply in that reliance of a large chunk of the population upon the state is probably the easiest way to control said population.

Whether we could actually say that what we are moving towards is socialism? I can't say. I'm not sure if "corporatism" as GV calls it is the right word for it either, though it does sound about right.

Be that as it may, we are still stuck with the question of what do we DO? Thats where I'm at a loss. On these boards I have been accused of being a rightwing nutjob, but honestly, I just disagree with everyone because I can't stand either political side, and since most of the people around here are pro-Obama then thats what you get to see me objecting to. The way I figure it, anyone who already has their mind made up to vote for either major candidate is a tool of the system in place, a simple pawn for one party or the other.

edit: sorry... I'm just a bit irritable when it comes to this stuff... I'll try to keep quiet on this... at least untill someone directly replies to this... darn I hate my inability to keep what I find important to myself.

[dogfood]

im assuming the "sides" you refer to are the sides of the political spectrum?
if so, both ideologies demand personal freedom, and a lack of governmental intervention in personal lives.
This is something that I am not seeing. The growth of the government and the degree to which it is creeping in to affect so many aspects of everyday life indicate that while the ideologies may call for personal freedom, the ideological banner carriers seem to regard government intervention necessary to secure personal freedom. It's akin to jailing someone for their own safety.

[Jason Ross]

- Find out who was indicted under the "Trading With Enemy Act" after WWII. Interesting to learn where some of the Bush family fortune came from.

Prescot Bush...The presidents grandfather.

[fattkid]

jason Ross - Word up! We hear about presidents and their ass pinching and blow jobs, but for some strange reason, our media and information institutions overlook things helping the Nazis embezzle money. But it shouldn'r really matter that our leader is a third generation traitor and war criminal, should it?

Peter Coene -
The way I figure it, anyone who already has their mind made up to vote for either major candidate is a tool of the system in place,

Exactly. Though I am not comfortable refering to folks as "tools" for buying into the illusion, you're right. We are not "electing" a president, we are merley choosing a mascot. No matter which mainstram candidate you choose, they are all chosen for us by the ruling elite from the same groups and organizations that I mentioned earlier. (Trilaterals, CFR, (both founded by Rockefellars), and the Bilderbergs.) So no matter which "president" we "elect" the same groups that are in power and running things now, will remain in power. The agenda will remain the same. Nothing changes. We are on a very specific course. Our destination has been chosen for us already.

What do we do? Education is the first step. Understand that all mainstream media in this country is owned and controlled by the same multinational corporations that own and control our government.

Understand the he same corporations telling you "evildoers and terrorists are out to get you" (via NBC, CBS, owned by GE, Westinghouse, or ABC, Fox, owned/controlled by members of the Bilderbergs) are the same corporations making billions of dollars from "The War On Terrorism". Not only that, they are consolidating control and power as well, by turning the U.S. into a police state, to "keep us safe from evildoers and terrorists".

Throw in a little economic turmoil, and we have a nation of sheep, being coralled into a pasture we aren't going to like and aren't going to be able to get out of.

Remember, the United States is not a country, it is an empire, and the rules for "country" are differnt than the rules for "empire". An empire is a predatory organism. Like a shark. An empire must prey on smaller, weaker countries for it to survive and thrive.

Therefore we need war to survive. It is essential that our government continually finds reasons and excuses to invade and attack other nations to feed and maintain this empire. Wether it's a "War On Communism", a "War On Drugs", or a "War on Terrorism", there always has to be a boogeyman and an excuse for imperial conquest.

What you'll find is that there is a very direct corellation to wether or not a "dictator must be overthrown" and wether or not American corporations control the resources of said nation. I.E., if American corporations own and control a countries resources (oil, minerals, metals, fruit, sugar, tobacco crops etc."), then the country is an ally or left alone, (abeight armed to prevent our puppet government from being overthrown), whereas if a foreign government takes control of it's resources, away from American corporations, then they become "evil dictatorships that must be overthrown".
Iran in '53 amd Guatamala in '54 are good examples of this. As well as Chile in 72, Venezuela & Bolivia now etc.


Any idea how many countries the US has attacked, invaded, or undermined by force since the end of WWII. About a hundred, though I've read closer to 120. There are about 190 countries on this planet.

Did you know that in 1986 the while the United States was imposing "Freedom And Democracy" on Nicaragua, they were convicted of terrorism by the UN and the World Courts? That's right. We are convicted terrorists. And what's ironically interesting about that, is that some of the same individuals involved in that, Colin Powell, Rumsfield, etc, are the same ones running things now.

Think about that. We have convicted terrorists declaring a war on terrorism, and using acts of terrorism (kidnapping/murders/ bombing hospitals, slaughtering civilians, using radioactive weapons etc.) to put an end to terrorism. Really? Is this the worst sitcom ever or what? That sound like recipe for success? And let's not forget that the United States governemnt is the world's largest weapons retailer. We arm, equip, supply and train more illicit military organizations than any other country on the planet.

Wanna stop terrorism? Lets' start by not selling weapons to terrorists. But we won't. Why, because the United States is an empire that needs war to survive.

Am I anti American? Absolutely not. I care about this country, which is why I've taken some responsibility in educating myself about what is going on and doing me best to share info and resources with folks who are ready to come to terms with reality, (which I'm finding is a minority of the population. That's a whole other rant).

I'm simply anti ignorance.

[kingshaj]

This is something that I am not seeing. The growth of the government and the degree to which it is creeping in to affect so many aspects of everyday life indicate that while the ideologies may call for personal freedom, the ideological banner carriers seem to regard government intervention necessary to secure personal freedom. It's akin to jailing someone for their own safety.

perhaps... while there are some contradictions in both groups.

For instance, the right calls for more prisons and "tougher" stance on crime
and more latitude for police and prosecutors, and better "defended" borders, for instance.

but it also , paradoxically calls for a more armed populace to protect itself from the above.

but in general ... from hippies to "good 'ol boys, all see the US govt as a potential boogie man.

i think this build-ups only "advocates" are those that dont belive it is a larger trend... or simply dont care or dont know. (the guy that will post "just draw" in about ten minutes, for instance)

Pete:
as far as what to do? you cant hope for an answer like that in the CA lounge.

as has been said, armed revolt is a joke ..it would leave us with a diminished quality of life for everyone for centuries.
its also laughable to imagine a consensus in that kind of overthrow ... to even mount it.

according to Orwell(sorry still readin'), this kind of govt. is inevitable and a global socio-evolutionary trend. A hundred revolutions would merely slow this trend down. that these govts don't spring from any specific ideas or ideologies. Hitler and stalin and needn't share any philosophy to create the same nightmare...for instance.

food for thought

[dogfood]

For instance, the right calls for more prisons and "tougher" stance on crime
and more latitude for police and prosecutors, and better "defended" borders, for instance.

but it also , paradoxically calls for a more armed populace to protect itself from the above.
I don't see the paradox. Can you explain?

fattkid, the "America is War" argument, while engagingly righteous, is a simplification that isn't completely complimentary to being anti-ignorant. It's missing a multitude of degrees of complication and the intersection of a huge number of domestic and foreign interests and motivations. It's just the first layer of a tremendously thick strata.

[kingshaj]

its advocating arming its own perceived enemy.

[dogfood]

I think they're advocating arming non-criminals in order to level the playing field. No paradox there.

[Peter Coene]

I think they're advocating arming non-criminals in order to level the playing field. No paradox there.

I advocate people arming themselves. If we look at this as the govt arming people then suddenly the right to bear arms ceases to be a right which the government cannot infringe upon and becomes a gift from the government which it can be taken away on a whim.

It also once again is a step towards reliance upon the government, which I believe I have already stated that I do not approve of.

[arttorney]

Left and right are not the sides. For example the Republicans and Democrats are both authoritarian groups who teach the we must be controlled for our own good. The sides are libertarianism versus authoritarianism. If you fee the need to be controlled for your own good, then you have nothing to worry about. The Bipartisan Party will take care of everything.


Concerning that the people don't mind being watched as long as they can consume: The authoritarians are watching even to make sure that we consume as we are instructed to consume. I ceased using the electricity for a while in my L.A. area apartment a few years ago as a test toward eventually leaving the grid. The LADWP contacted my landlord to find out why I was no longer buying their electricity. (How dare I not buy electricity? Everybody must buy electricity. It's in the manual.) Always smile for the camera while you are at the ATM or going through an intersection. You're on candid camera.

[kingshaj]

I think they're advocating arming non-criminals in order to level the playing field. No paradox there.

thats something else altogether

im talking about the original post :


there is a segment of America that defends the the 2nd amendment by arguing that armed revolt may become necessary, if govt becomes too oppressive. (im not speaking on any other reason for advocating private gun ownership..not getting in to that debate )

This same group, however, calls for more police powers ... stricter laws for smaller crimes...longer jail terms...3-strikes, locked borders, etc
effectively making any revolt impossible.

this is an apparent contradiction

The point i was trying to make is that even those that inadvertently call for some of the trappings of a police state , arm themselves against its eventual arrival.
which means to me, that no americans call for or desire a police state, and all abhor a governmental invasion of privacy...even those that vote for authoritarian officials


-

[dogfood]

I agree. If those people who arm themselves for the eventual need to use their arms against an uppity Federal Government weren't a fringe element, arming folks would be pretty koo-koo for Cocoa Puffs.

Has anyone heard about the town near Atlanta (Kennesaw) that mandated gun ownership for its households?

[GhostValkyrie]

according to Orwell(sorry still readin'), this kind of govt. is inevitable and a global socio-evolutionary trend. A hundred revolutions would merely slow this trend down. that these govts don't spring from any specific ideas or ideologies. Hitler and stalin and needn't share any philosophy to create the same nightmare...for instance.

food for thought

This is something I try stressing to people. Even though I find myself sympathizing with many who would seek to do such a thing, I don't sympathize with the exercise and believe that it would result in the consequences you and I both made clear in different posts.

Sadly, this is the only way for us to move forward. It's sad, but true. When you think of things on both scales you realize how wrong each side is. On the right hand you have freedom to do as you please without harm, even at that it causes problems to our advancement. Imagine if there were no taxes. While I don't like taxes and our Fed is illegal, there are many programs that help us progress that would suffer and our govt. would lack a lot of funding in order to do it's job. Some people believe that if we didn't pay taxes and the govt. didn't have the job of taking care of the people even in emergency circumstances that others would; Unfortunately this isn't true, and many people on our 'level' would suffer because others on our level wouldn't lend the hand needed. It's because of people's lack of care that these programs became necessary, and their dependancy has created further necessities.

On the left hand, you have the pure logic. Dark, cold, but inevitably beneficial in the logical sense that it would end a lot of the problems and inequities caused by 'too much' freedom. If people aren't forced to do what is necessary, then they won't. This brings us back into a situation where these things, as much I oppose them, are needed. The idea of people being willing to create their own communist society is great, but in the end it's impossible. People seek to further their own gains and concern themselves with their own causes. Even I do this. If it came down to my family surviving or another surviving, I would do what it takes to make sure my family survives. I would like to think that I would do everything I can for both, but in the end I feel everyone would do what they can for their family/loved ones/selves primarily. We can barely imagine what we're truly capable of in the worst/best situations. And believe me, I've seen situations where I've been confronted with choices that will effect me for the rest of my life.

I'm probably going to be alone in admitting that, because a lot of people want to play self-righteous and believe that these animal tendencies are something foreign to them.

I've seen both sides of this, and am making points that the authoritarians don't here because I don't see any here. I'm certainly not an imperialist, and I believe that freedom is something inherent that we must all fight for. We have to understand our limits though, and see where the lines need to be drawn. Just as kingshaj stated, what Orwell pointed out is true. This is something inevitable, as terrible as we feel and see it.

I think one of the strangest things is that people don't talk too much about the emergence or corporatism, something that was hinted at in other stories and movies during and after that period. The original Rollerball movie was based around the inevitable rise of mega-corporations that work hand in hand with the govt. to determine policy.

The best thing I can see is for more people to get involved and make this positive, or turn it around if possible.

[fattkid]

dogfood - yeah, your'e right about my previous comment being a little oversimplified and innaccurate. It can sometimes be a little difficult to not get a little cynical in times like these. At the same time, perpetual conflict does seem to me to be an important tool in maintaining and increasing power, wealth and control, both domestically and abroad, for the ruling elites.

The best thing I can see is for more people to get involved and make this positive, or turn it around if possible

GhostValkyrie - I'd agree with you 100% This "One World, Authoritarian Government" that is slowly taking shape is, essentially, natural evolution. Plain and simple, like it or not. What I find disturbing is the masses are being steered/manipulated/enslaved into it without their realizing it. That being said, Mother Nature abhors a monopoly, and such attempts will inspire citizens to resist/adapt/ or outsmart the forces being imposed on them. Not to sound to "woo woo spiritual" but what I see happening is the stage being set for the next evolution of mankind. People are going to have to start taking more responsibilitythemselves and each other, were going to have to start being more proactive in creating the world/future we want. Ultimately, the situation is going to force man to be more conscious, more aware, and more compassionate. I think discussions like the one we are all involved in right now are an example of that process. Evolution doesn't necessarily favor the strongest/fastest/smartest, it favors the most adaptable.

[TheJester]

GhostValkyrie "Doing what it takes", is not just one thing. America suffering from terrorism and crime is not something that is resolved by making sure one catches all the bad guys. And the paradigm of defending one's family, or self, is not very appropriate I am affraid. For a person to defend his rights and his life, is quite the opposite than for a government to take away rights and lives too, in the name of what? The integrity of the State? Who gives a fuck about the state!
Aggresive economic policies and manipulating other nations regimes has been the root of all the American people's misery for the last century!!!! And in the name of "securing democracy", boogiemen are invented, to keep the public scared and obedient. The Communist threat, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, South America, this goes on and on and on. Corporatism is BASED on this policy, and so it feeds it and manipulates it. It's the new version of imperialism, fucking people up and then offering them a hand. It works well within the country as well. Allow everyonecarry a gun, and then increase police control, cause, well what can you do? Anyone can pull out a shotgun and blast your head off!!!!
Unfortunately, the root of all this is so deep that not even conspiracy theories can capture it. The corporations that hold the steeringwheel, are not only hug, but a lot of them. There isn't a plan to conquer the world, it's the easiest and most efficient way to get a lot of money...

[Peter Coene]

thats something else altogether

im talking about the original post :


there is a segment of America that defends the the 2nd amendment by arguing that armed revolt may become necessary, if govt becomes too oppressive. (im not speaking on any other reason for advocating private gun ownership..not getting in to that debate )

This same group, however, calls for more police powers ... stricter laws for smaller crimes...longer jail terms...3-strikes, locked borders, etc
effectively making any revolt impossible.

this is an apparent contradiction

I think that part of the problem here is that you are lumping people into a group. Most of the "gun nuts" out there who want to hold on to their weapons so as to keep the govt from getting too oppressive are not in favor of the surveillance, tapped phones, having to always carry ID, etc etc. If they had their way they'd live in a compound in the middle of nowhere with their friends and live under their own authority without any disturbance from the outside world.

However, they are stuck in a nation with only two political parties, and only one of those parties claims to support their right to bear arms so that's the one that they end up running to. This doesn't mean that they agree with its other stuff, but most of that stuff doesn't seem to apply to them, and they would rather have the party where they agree with one thing than the party that they don't agree with at all.

I'm sure that you will find similar examples within the Democratic party; Hispanic voters who because of the Catholic upbringing are against gay marriage and/or abortion but vote Democrat because they feel that the Republicans are unfair to immigrants, for example. Once again, realistically they only have two choices and neither is ideal. The system as it is forces their hand, and in the end everyone that votes mainstream ends up voting for oppression, regardless of whether they are democrat or republican.

In my case I ended up realizing this ironically because of another negative in the American political system: the electoral college. Unless your state is a swing state it is already predestined which side will get all of your states electoral votes (the only votes that really matter anyways) and so I really see no reason to get swept up into either side's "vote for us or the other guy wins" because as it turns out my vote really doesn't matter. Since voting Red or Blue won't effect the outcome in the slightest I might as well vote other and at least get some comfort in having thrown both sides the finger.

[Blahm]

while i can see the appeal of having a world united with good intentions, i seen none in the powers getting this work done at present. Basicly people are sleepwalking into hell, and loving it. The same Oligarchy has been running shit since 100 A.D., and its no different now. All these councils of foriegne relations, bilderbergers, secret societies bla bla are just like the dummy corporations that keep people divided and conquered. High powered slaves, who keep the drooling masses tranqulized, true knowlege burned, and racism rampant. This all can be easily destroyed if the people just forget the doctorines of our fathers and come together in peace without begging governments to do it for us. Or else its going to be world that people dont want because the ones in charge to not care about us. But that is my opinion so there it is.

[GhostValkyrie]

GhostValkyrie "Doing what it takes", is not just one thing. America suffering from terrorism and crime is not something that is resolved by making sure one catches all the bad guys. And the paradigm of defending one's family, or self, is not very appropriate I am affraid. For a person to defend his rights and his life, is quite the opposite than for a government to take away rights and lives too, in the name of what? The integrity of the State? Who gives a fuck about the state!
Aggresive economic policies and manipulating other nations regimes has been the root of all the American people's misery for the last century!!!! And in the name of "securing democracy", boogiemen are invented, to keep the public scared and obedient. The Communist threat, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, South America, this goes on and on and on. Corporatism is BASED on this policy, and so it feeds it and manipulates it. It's the new version of imperialism, fucking people up and then offering them a hand. It works well within the country as well. Allow everyonecarry a gun, and then increase police control, cause, well what can you do? Anyone can pull out a shotgun and blast your head off!!!!
Unfortunately, the root of all this is so deep that not even conspiracy theories can capture it. The corporations that hold the steeringwheel, are not only hug, but a lot of them. There isn't a plan to conquer the world, it's the easiest and most efficient way to get a lot of money...

This is the shit I was talking about. You didn't even pay attention to what I was saying. I said I'm against this, I feel it's wrong, and that we must change the course - but in a healthy manner. An uprising would cause massive problems, spiraling us into a depression, anarchy, and ripping entire countries apart for decades, maybe centuries. It would set back our social evolution for untold years. What is happening is inevitable, but if people get involved and help determine the policies; It can be a positive.


This left and right, right and wrong, black and white stuff is getting way out of hand.

[kingshaj]

Peter:
you may be right.. who can say, but i feel fairly
sure there is some overlap in the 2nd amendment crowd and the pro Guantanamo folks... but how could i ever really know? it may be just as you suggest , that the politicians merely preaching to 2 different agendas simultaneously . im no pollster.

GhostValkyrie:
well said,
there is no question that an armed revolution would be catastrophic.
in fact i think it would be the quickest route to a full on police state. alternatively, it would last a century (ironically one year less than the iraq war) and it would spell nothing but starvation disease and violence. for a very long time... Whichever "side" won, we would not like the new govt very much at all.

-

[Chingwa]

Beginning Oct. 1 for 12 months, the 1st BCT will be under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command, as an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks.

Scary stuff. I can't wait to see what kind of manmade emergencies Bush and Cheney and Brzezinksi are dreaming up for us.

[Peter Coene]

Peter:
you may be right.. who can say, but i feel fairly
sure there is some overlap in the 2nd amendment crowd and the pro Guantanamo folks... but how could i ever really know? it may be just as you suggest , that the politicians merely preaching to 2 different agendas simultaneously . im no pollster.

I think that the overlap that you see is a result of people brainwashing themselves. "Well, if this guy supports what we stand for then he must be good... If this guy is good then the things he says must be good... Um... yeah, this is the guy I'm voting for but I forgot why I originally liked him, but he is good therefore I support what he says."

Once again, the same zombie mentality takes place in the Democratic party as well. Same thing, different issues. This isn't something that occurs with everyone, but it does happen in some cases and shows yet another example of how people are expected to change themselves for the politicians and not the other way around.

So yes, it happens, however in my experience (and I have hung around with quite a few rightwingers) such folks are usually not the norm.

[kingshaj]

here is the only real solution ... > borrowed from the thread next door..

balloons!

[GHill]

HaG9d_4zij8

It's crazy that this guy even mentions martial law. Could just be fear mongering of fear mongering. But we are all saved, the bill has passed!.. You're broke.

[dogfood]

"Somebody told me..." = "I'm making this shit up".

[Blahm]

criminal government in full effect.

[Peter Coene]

criminal government
slightly redundant.

[Blahm]

slightly redundant.

but true. i was refering to that video that was posted.