Whats the difference between an Atelier and an Art College

[lilnebo]

Ok, stupid question i know
But whats the difference between an Atelier and an art college/ school
Or are they both the same
Sorry for asking such a stupid questions i searched it on google and all but couldn't find anything :(

[thesinfulsaint]

An accredited art school will grant you a degree of some sort upon completion of the curriculum. (Associate's, Bachelor's, Master's... It depends on the number of years you're attending and the type of program.) An atelier will not. Also, many times, an atelier is much cheaper than an art school. In theory, both will teach you the same skill set. It just depends on where you are in your life and what you are hoping to achieve through your art education.

[lilnebo]

So lets Say, someone wants to work as a concept artist or illustraitor, would going to an atelier be ok?
thanks for explaing thesinfulsaint

[dcorc]

In theory, both will teach you the same skill set.

But in practice, they won't.

"Atelier" tends to imply that the school has a belief in the importance of grounding in the technical skills that characterised mainstream art prior to the 20thC.

"Art school" is much more likely to imply a modernist slant, and you could well emerge at the far end of it clutching your degree certificate, and well-versed in "artspeak", but with no more idea about the practicalities of drawing or painting than you had when you entered it.

In both cases, "buyer beware" - always check out the work coming from both staff and students.

[panchosimpson]

This really depends on the atelier and the art school. The sinfulsaint is right about the degree/non degree deal, and the cost, ateliers are often cheaper (however, most don't offer scholarships).

Dcorc is right...in general. If you go to a good art school, like say, Art Center, Academy of Art, Lyme Academy, Laguna College or Ringling you will be learning the basics of representational painting which are the core of illustration and concept art. Also, these schools offer thorough training in perspective, which is absolutely necessary in order to be able to create figures/environments from your imagination. Often, but not always, figure drawing at art schools (from experience I know this is so at Art Center) is based on a constructive approach, that is, the figure is analyzed using simple forms, and gesture lines, then, as the student's knowledge of anatomy increases, the forms they use become more specific and adapted to the particularities of the model. The key is analysis not copying. This approach goes back to the Renaissance and is instrumental in developing the ability to draw figures from your head, which is VERY helpful for illustration/concept art

A renaissance drawing that looks a lot like a comic book artist's rough drawing
http://www.gemutlichkeit.org/Material/redaktionell/Bilder/Zeichnen1/drawing_strategies/bilder/gross/cambiaso_luca.jpg

Ateliers are often of a different philosophical bent. They usually offer a concentrated program focusing solely on art, for about 3-5 years. They will focus on craftsmanship, and will often base their curriculum on 19th century academic principles. The teaching is largely centered on copying the model, with the result that students are able to reproduce what they see exactly.
However, impressive as these paintings may be, atelier students by and large do not do well in creating things from their imagination, because ateliers often fail to teach perspective and anatomy adequately and the teaching is based on observing 2d shape rather than 3d form. A lot of them also focus on drawing "sight size" which means you draw something the same size you see it. This can be useful when learning to see, but severely limiting if followed indiscriminately after training is over.

The flip side of this is that art schools often don't teach you to paint quite as well as ateliers do.

The point is, whatever route you take, you have to be aware of why you're doing the exercises you're doing, etc. You're always going to have to teach yourself some things, because no school nowadays will give you all the pieces of the puzzle. If you go to art school, try to push your painting skills on your own, etc. If you got to an atelier, don't get star struck like so many people are nowadays talking about classical this classical that, and bear in mind that you have to learn perspective, construction, anatomy, etc and that copying visual reality won't solve all your problems.

As long as you keep things in perspective though, both can work. If there's any quality that distinguishes the best from the rest in illustration (and any field) it's motivation.

If you need further clarification on any of this, let me know.

Hope this helps,

-Ramon

PS. the Concept Art Atelier is exempt from most of the criticisms I made about ateliers and seems to balance things very well.

[MCM]

Pedigree is everything.

[dcorc]

Pedigree is everything.

That's excellent advice if you're entering a dog-show.

However, for art education, things are a bit more complicated.

"Going to the right school" certainly helps when you are networking with the snobs.

However, if you want to know what sort of actual education you're likely to get, its a good idea to look at the work created by current/very recent staff/students, as I said above.

[rpace]

Pedigree means nothing.

Getting work is entirely based on portfolio and personality. Opportunities to work are helped by who you know. Continuing to work is a function of quality, professionalism, speed, and personality again.

The name of the school or atelier you attended never enters into it.

The most important factors should be the quality of instruction, potential contacts and school environment.

Graduate work being equal, a school with a good reputation, but poor staff and student morale and badly maintained facilities may be as good or bad a choice as a school with no reputation but highly motivated staff and students and good facilities.

~Richard

[lilnebo]

Thank you guys for clearing things up
That helped tons
Thanks a billion again :)

[panchosimpson]

Lilnebo: no problem :) It's great to see someone so young already thinking about her future and schools...I didn't know what an atelier was till I was 17!

Dave, Richard really good comments :) You're absolutely right, pedigree means nothing. I go to USC which is renowed for its film program/school....however, the animation program (which is in the film school) is absolutely terrible.

US News's rankings similarly put the Yale Art school at the very top....when in reality, Yale's art program hasn't been worth anything for at least 80 years!

[Elwell]

US News's rankings similarly put the Yale Art school at the very top....when in reality, Yale's art program hasn't been worth anything for at least 80 years!

If one wants to be a fashionable, modern gallery painter then an MFA from Yale is an excellent investment.

[panchosimpson]

haha true, I was thinking about when Yale had an academic art program, back when Remington studied there, and there was a golden age illustrator who studied there too.

[sweetoblivion314]

I agree that pedigree means nothing. For example if you are looking at Art Center for representational art because of its pedigree from 30-40 years ago you should change you view to AAU. About 15 years ago Craig Nelson, Bill Maughan and many other teachers left there to come to AAU. Now the curriculum of the Fine Art department at AAU is very similar to the golden age of Art Center where as in Craig's words, "half the teachers at Art Center were my C students." And the fine art curriculum at Art center is very concept focused. It's all about the teachers and curriculum.

[Maxine Schacker]

Ramon, your comments are dead on. As far as concept art careers are concerned, the most successful graduate from Max the Mutt was hired based entirely on portfolio, and this was before we offered a concept art diploma and before we were known to the industry! He heard they were hiring and applied. No one cared if they knew our school or not. It was , according to him, mainly his painting and drawing skills (our first year is all about traditional skills) and his sketch books that got him the job! I'm sure it also helped that he loves video games and had a good handle on computer programs including Maya. The recruiter called me for a character reference. This graduate was always a good team player and easy to work with. He also was generous and willing to give a hand. Those qualities seemed very, very important to the recruiter. He was hired and progressed quickly, and now is a co-owner of his own company. They are about to publish their first game.

His story was part of the motivation behind our decision to develop a diploma program specific to concept art.

[NoSeRider]

They will focus on craftsmanship, and will often base their curriculum on 19th century academic principles. The teaching is largely centered on copying the model, with the result that students are able to reproduce what they see exactly.
However, impressive as these paintings may be, atelier students by and large do not do well in creating things from their imagination, because ateliers often fail to teach perspective and anatomy adequately and the teaching is based on observing 2d shape rather than 3d form. A lot of them also focus on drawing "sight size" which means you draw something the same size you see it. This can be useful when learning to see, but severely limiting if followed indiscriminately after training is over.


This guys portfolio shows Atelier instruction:
http://dlxiao.blogspot.com/

I know Daniel Xiao went to Watts Atelier, I can also tell he's been scouring the Skillfull Huntsman book that was published by Scott Robertson, Art Center.....I also know he got accepted to ACCD entertainment art program.

Art is what 'you' make of it....not solely what you were taught.

[lilnebo]

I don't know but am keeping it in the back of my mind to work towards going into the Ca atelier, but i know thats like big dreams and i'll have to wait 4 years all i can do is bust my ass over those 4 years and just keep hope up to get into it.
:P

[panchosimpson]

Noserider: I was mainly referring to the Ateliers with the Lack lineage, (Florence, etc) which are the ones that suffer from these deficiencies. At any rate, Watts has more in common with the "art schools" as far as instruction and philosophy goes (in that construction, perspective etc is used, no sight size).

lilnebo Just took a look at your thread, I'm really impressed, your work is really coming along! It's great to see so many anatomy studies, etc. But more importantly, great attitude! And yeah, bust your ass, that's the spirit!