Not alloweed to draw nudes

[Nibras]

Ok my first question was answered, so instead of starting a new thread i just edited this one.
I just turned 14 years old and i come from a muslim family
My problem is am not alloweed to draw nudes and i've been doing anatomy studies *muscles, and studying loomis bridgeman hogarth, bones etc*
for some time now, the problem is now that i got the kind of basic understanding i need to see it all with a layer of skin added on instead of just muslces. To do that i need to study nudes, but bieng 14 and having an old fashioned dad am not alloweed to.
I would try to talk to my dad about it but hes been looking for a reason to take away m pencils and this would give him the perfect oppertunity.
Any help please guys?
Cheers and thanks tons
There goes my dream for working for massive black when am older when i can't even draw a proper figure :'(

[kev ferrara]

Draw really well to express something your feel deeply. And design every aspect of it so it looks cool to you, but still looks realistic.

You learn how to do this by looking at nature and figures and anatomy and saying to yourself... damn, that's cool how that muscle does that, or how light falls during this time of day, or how that mountain looks in the distance, or the way you can see through a glass bottle, or how smoke drifts upwards from a lit cigarette in an ashtray, or the way metal glints in sunlight... which causes you to remember what you saw (though not precisely, but enough to know that that's the effect you want to achieve.) Then you can be a bit of a scientist and study anatomy and form, the science of light, speculars, the way light looks at certain times of day and in certain weather conditions, the way light casts shadow, turbulence flow (http://boojum.as.arizona.edu/~jill/NS102_2006/Lectures/Lecture12/turbulent.html)... etc.

So I guess the foundation of art is observation, and storing all the coolness in your imagination, being a bit of scientist to better understand what is causing the coolness you are seeing, and then using the coolnesses, maybe unconsciously, to express your emotions when the time comes to make some art.

Just my two cents
kev

[rpace]

What the fundamentals are shifts depending on what you're specifically discussing -- it may also shift depending on the opinions of the artist you're talking to.

The broadest sense of the fundamentals could be summed up like this:

Drawing Fundamentals
Understanding use of line and line quality, which extends far beyond just making the marks, but knowing how and when to make specific types of marks to represent things as varied as texture, weight and volume.
Understanding perspective.
Understand value and tone and lighting in B&W.
Understanding a methodology to create a 2D representation of what you see in front of you.
Human anatomy is a fundamental if you wish to draw humans.
Animal anatomy is a fundamental if you wish to draw animals.
Understand drapery if you wish to draw costume/clothing.
Understanding composition and design.

When I write "understanding" I do include the ability to apply the knowledge.

Painting Fundamentals
Everything that applies to drawing fundamentals also applies here.
Understand colour theory or theories.
Understand lighting and shadow in colour.
Understand the practical requirements of your media.

Now, my understanding of fundamentals is as the basics of the process -- the foundations upon which later knowledge and experience rests, so we come to a fine hair which may split what I and another art educator may consider fundamentals. Some may see all painting as advanced knowledge, others may see no divide between drawing and painting.

Hope this helps!

~Richard

[Ilaekae]

Becoming a plumber does not involve reading every medical book you can find and buying a big honkin' hammer.

Building a house does not require learning to water ski in any manner, and does not involve fuel injection or picking suitable make-up.

You can probably interpolate from there... :P

[Nibras]

Thanks for that guys
and rprace your comment just clears it all up thanks

[Black Spot]

First and foremost is learning Control. Controlling your hand and eyes so they work together to draw what you see. Also learning to really look at what’s in front of you. Learn the rules of basic composition and then how you can break them and still get a pleasing result. Learn how to get the exact colour required, theory will help but experience goes a long way.

[Nibras]

Bump, new question

[Black Spot]

The weather is hot at the moment in Britain, and if you go down to the park you might see people that might as well not have any clothes on catching the sun. Might be a good idea to ask first and explain you’re just a beginner.

Or, do you have a conniving, low down sneaky art teacher who might help?

[Ilaekae]

First question that comes to mind is how orthodox is your family? I know there is a general prohibition on depicting the human figure in many sects of Islam, and this kind of determines how we make suggestions...

[Nibras]

Black spot: I try to do that every time we go out, but i dont really ask people to pose for me :( just lack of confidence in doing that i guess
Ilaekae: My mum has seen me draw some shirtless guys, she didn't seem to mind them too much, as long as it's not from like "sexy guys magazine". she would have been a bit easier to convince but my dad well hes too strict but he is pretty strict. He thinks it's wrong to see nudes or the human body and took a spaz for me looking at a magazine which had underwear models who were girls *and am a girl o.o* so yea you can guess what he'll be like if he saw me draw nudes.
Cheers for ideas so far guys

[Dave_]

Ask him why it is wrong to the human body naked. it eez how we are born (Never seen a muslim baby been born, but i think its naked). Because if we know his argument, we can shatter them to dust!

[Justice Von Brandt]

There is no such thing as a muslim baby....

But draw people with clothes on, still good practice. Or you could always just draw naked people and not show it to your dad.

[rpace]

I don't think there's a simple answer here --there's cultural and generational issues as well as expectations on parenting, so "doing it on the sly" or telling your dad how important it is to your future career may not be good options.

There's a number of things in play here, some positive and some negative. Faith isn't rational, so a logical argument to allow you to study the human form may not work. In my experience, many Muslims (as well as other cultures) are about forty years behind on treating women as equals, so your plans for what you want to do with your life may be quite different from what your father thinks he's going to do with your life. You're going to have a fight ahead of yourself to assert your own choices within the cultural parameters your family expects you to operate. A thorough visual arts education with eventual relocation to San Fransisco to work at Massive Black may be radically different from the life script your parents expect you to follow.

The things operating in your favour is that you're living in the Western world and will have access to financial scholastic support if your father refuses to support you in your choices. Start researching all your avenues if the worst comes to pass. Hold firm in what you believe, but do not insult or antagonise your family; they probably don't understand what it's like to be you at your age in this location, but you have the benefit of knowing their limitations before the argument even starts.

Try to avoid making it an actual argument. If you've done your research and know what forms to fill out and where to go, you've made your decision and it's up to your family to choose to support you in it or not. Trying to convince them to help you to do what they do not want you to do is starting from a losing position. Asking them to support you in what you're going to do regardless of whether or not they help removes their control in the situation and will be more likely to engender respect.

If you fear your father will do some of the scarier things muslim fathers do when their daughters are disbedient make sure you have an escape plan. I'm certain Scotlans should have resources available. If you can't find any, PM me, my wife has done a great deal of work on international programs of this sort and she may be able to offer some direction.

You're 14 -- you're resally only under their control for four more years (or less depending on how this escalates). While that may seem an eternity, it really isn't that much time on the scale of your whole life. As an artist you can focus on a great number of things that should not antagonise your father and will further your development.

Study animal anatomy -- this will eventually feed and support your later development in human anatomy.

Really get your perspective down -- many artists let this slide and their work with the human form suffers for it.

Still life and costumed portraiture are great ways to develop your painting and drawing skills.

The larger goal is to make the choices in your life. In a perfect world all parents and cultures would help their children do this. They still love you(hey, I can assume this at least!) even if they can't wrap their head around allowing you such independance, so keeping the potentially fiery drama to a minimum over the long term will pay off with dividends later in life.

Hope I didn't ramble too much,

~Richard

[Nibras]

dave: that would just give him the idea, then he'd start asking why and why do i wanna draw it and just not allow me to draw, it's all so hard :(
but thanks for the idea i wish i could just stand up to him but i don't have the guts
Mnm: yea i do that, i've tried to do it in secret but since my computer screen is open at the door it's kind of hard. thanks for the tip though :)
i really appreciate the help guys

[Nibras]

rpace: Thanks for taking the time man
it's just am amazingly interested in the human body, i find it pretty facsinating and all. I'll try to see what i can do, maybe i'll get my aunt to help me with this Lord knows

[Jasonwclark]

Well, you can try to persuade people (and try and try again) but someone out there is still going to make a scene about it, until they airbrush the nipples off. I don't know how much religion is playing into things for you, but this doesn't sound like an iconoclast issue. It sounds more like a case of good old fashioned prudishness, and an overprotective Dad.

I'm going to take a wild guess here, and assume that he doesn't know about your CA sketchbook, and the fact that you've been sharing your drawings with strangers over the internet...? If that's the case, then you might want to consider leaving him in the dark about that for a little while longer. Not that you should be keeping things from your parents, but sometimes its easier than dealing with the fallout. 14 is still pretty young (I'm sure it doesn't feel that way right now) but in a few more years, the influence your parents excercise over you will be much diminished. What you're dealing with now, probably has more to do with their uneasiness around the subject of sex, and concerns about sexual maturity, than it does with the artwork. In western art, a nude typically has no clothing on, but that doesn't mean that they're always fully exposed. Sometimes a piece of cloth, hair, or a carefully positioned arm/leg, will serve to cover up the racier elements and just give a suggestion. Sometimes the clothing or drapery on a dressed figure can even more be more erotic than the nude figure (Bernini comes to mind here), so there's that too.

Trying to figure out where the nude stops and pornography begins, is a major issue in art theory, and an old one.
Don't be surprised if you encounter different reactions from different people.

[Nibras]

Jasonwclark: no he doesn't know about that
and am not planning on telling him
Thanks for the advice man, thanks for taking the time :) and yea i guess thats what it's all about. He actully doesn't mind the idea of me doing art for a job just doesn't like the nude part of it i guess
cheers

[JParrilla]

Hmm.. well if your looking for the best possible alternative to drawing the nude figure... I would have to say plaster casts. They stay still as long as you need. Its easier to see value because you dont have the varying skin tone, you can set up the light however you want. Now you dont have to get a nude cast of David or anything like that. Maybe a hand, a head, whatever. Im not sure what dad would think about that but theres really no nudity involved at all. They are expensive but if you get just one.. you can get tons of drawings out of it.. after all the point is learning to draw what you see.. the fact that its a hand or a leg isnt important.. as long as its 3 dimensional and you can create interesting lighting on it.

[Ilaekae]

Avoid a confrontation at all costs. It will just make things worse.

What you need right now is a bit of faith in yourself, your goals long-range, and a little bit of patience. It's hard to see this when you're 14, but actually, in no time at all, you'll be an independent adult. The trick is getting to that point with as little family hassle as possible.

The suggestions have already been made above--concentrate on animals, for example. The rules of anatomy apply, whether you're drawing a bird, goat, monkey or a human being. You have structural issues, muscle issues, movement, coverings and surface (fur, feathers, etc.). All of these will teach you the basic principles of lighting, posing, movement, muscle structure, etc.

Gather up weird and neato objects of all kinds and create still lives that you can draw from different angles and under different lighting conditions. This will teach you surfaces and how they differ, and give you a great start on building a structure in 2D that is really 3D to start with.

Above all, don't add to the stress levels. Only you can do this. It's just a short time--don't lie where you don't have to, don't antagonize where you can avoid it, and something no one has mentioned yet...

When you do the animal and object drawings, and as you improve with those exercises, show them proudly to your father and ask for his opinion and if he thinks you're getting better. The worst he can do is tell you to go away. The best is that he'll be proud of your efforts, and you'll be building a sense of trust between the two of you.

When the time comes to strike out on your own, you will have built a massive mental file of experience and technical ability that will almost instantly apply to the human figure when you finally are free to do so.

[Stoat]

The cat is wise. What he said. Keep confrontation and sneaking to an absolute minimum. I know it doesn't seem like it, but you'll be of age before you know it. Meanwhile, pretty much nothing good can come from antagonizing your dad (and nothing will antagonize him more than catching you hiding something he doesn't want you doing).

Draw people with their clothes on. Draw animals. There's so much to learn at the beginning end of the curve, you'll have plenty to do for the next few years...

[arttorney]

Low key for now. We wouldn't want anybody to take your pencils away.

[J Wilson]

My suggestion would be to stick to working on the more generic looking mannikins that you find in Loomis and other books. You don't need the muscles and bones right away. Learn proportions, learn showing the basic shapes that comprise the human body in various positions, but you can sacrifice the details for now. It may help your parent's ease with this if the drawings look very generic and doll like, and for now that will probably be plenty to keep you learning and progressing.

If your mom seems more ok with you working on this topic, maybe broach the topic with her and find out what limits are acceptable and which are the ones that most concern your dad. I'm sure there may be some place in the middle will keep you learning without causing too much family stress.

Otherwise, as others have mentioned learning animal anatomy will help because we are built very similar from a basic bones and muscles standpoint, and it will at least enhance your observation skills. I'd stick with mostly mammals, and those without thick fur for best results.

[Mirana]

JasonWClark: Religion does play a large part in this. I had a male Muslim friend in High School who was not allowed to hang out with female friends unless there were other boys there. We weren't allowed to come over to his house and swim in his pool even with his parents there. At graduation, my bra strap slipped a little and his mother had to rush over, fix it, and loudly call it a swim suit to keep his dad from freaking out. We were eventually allowed to swim at their pool when he was 18 (and after his mother worked on his dad) but his dad sat outside and watched us for the entire time, even though we were out there in a group and playing with his other, much younger kids.

Drawing-wise, they had a few portraits of prominent Muslim leaders and even those the father repeatedly argued about taking down b/c they could be idols. My friend was only allowed to draw non-objective stuff until he was 18. All this from a man who was a PROFESSOR, adored children and was married to a previously Christian woman. :shrug:

Lilnebo: I'm surprised no one has suggested this... When I was your age and I couldn't do life drawing, I used myself as reference. I got a full-length mirror and put myself in the poses I wanted (nude or otherwise) and sketched them out in sections in my sketchbook. It was very much like life drawing in the end, but also made me quick b/c I...had to move to draw. You will suffer a little in making your males a wee bit feminine, but that'll pass with time and distance from dad's rule.

Good luck!

[Qitsune]

Faces are hard to draw you will have to work on them sooner or later. Perspective too. I don't think not drawing anatomy at 14 will handicap you for later. Very few of us drew nudes when we were 14 as far as i know.

[Nibras]

bigjoee: i've been trying to do some of them from books and all and their pretty helpful
ilaekae: Thanks for the tip man, and yea i try to do alot of life drawings and practise things like, prespective, tone, lighting, line etc
But really thanks for taking the time it really means alot to know someone is trying to help and really that goes to everyone for giving all the suggestions and tips and keeping me on the right direction.
Stoat: thanks stoat, i drew tons of people with clothing on and it helps alot really, proportion wise and with line and rendering.
arrtoney: haha yea, i really like really can't go a day without drawing so that would be hard
Jwilson: i work with bridgeman, loomis, hogarth and they don't seem to mind them really, theres no shall i say *peepies* in their drawings lol and it's just
drawings. And i'd tell my mum but shes pregnant pregnant women = very evil
Mirana: Yea i tried that yesterday and it actully helped quit alot, with females it didn't matter too much with males i would just have to use the concept of where every thing goes and square it up a bit.
qitsune: yea, i guess thanks man
Thank you people for taking the time and i've got alot of ideas of what i should do and what i shouldn't do, thanks guys it really means alot to see someone tryina help me :)

[Nibras]

Well so far i work on these things when am not working on anatomy:
Life drawing, master studies/ studying other artist, Drawing from ref *basically everything* Practising gestures , prespective, tone, rendering, line, light/shadow, form and shapes of things and really just getting simple shapes and forms out of them. Basically i try to study as much as i can, but along side that i've been studying the figure. I've done bones and muscles, alot of muscles lol like this:
some of studies of anatomy just to give an example
*old works *
427066

427067

427068

427070

427071

427072
They don't seem to mind me drawing from anatomy books as long as you can't see their private parts and other artist work. What I've been doing in trying to find a way around it is:
Draw my self or people in the street
Draw clothed figures
Draw People with skin tight clothing, like ballet dancers, divers, gymnastics people
Draw parts of the body seprate like arms legs heads hands feet etc.
Draw from anatomy books
Sometimes my mum lets me draw *she doesn't really mind anyway* people in their underwear.
Try to make some studies of other artist's studies or old masters
Thats really how i've been going around it for the past 6 months but the problem came when i had some difficulties telling what stands out in the torso and what bones and muscles actully show in the surface of the skin.
I know alot of people say i should do animal anatomy and i will study animals just because it might help and it should be pretty fun tryina animals and then creature design. Its just i've really started to take a huge interest in the human body and humans/ characters/ character design if only my parents would understand that.
The reason am not ttrying to talk to my mum is because shes in like her 5th going into 6th month pregnancy and she has just turned into the devil like literally. She takes a spaz and makes a big deal out of the smallest things but atleast she has an excuses and if i talk to her about me drawing nudes now she will just go freako! but i can get away with drawing half nudes and sometimes people with underwear.
Am gonne take up ilaekae's advice and try to show my dad more of my art, i show him portraits and stuff and everytime i do if hes in a good mood he just says nice or something and gives me crits about how i should improve it, but since hes gonne alot i don't see him. But the reason I had this idea is because my mum doesn't seem to mind me doing drawings of like people with underwear on etc is because she sees all my studies of muscles and bones and arms legs etc I think shes beggining to understand that am doing it for the sack of learning more about the human body, so maybe if i show my dad some of my muscle studies and stuff he might not mind too not sure really.
Thanks for the advice so far guys, this is really why i love Ca you guys are always there to help and give adivce
:yayca::yayca: :heart:

[Jacob Kobryn]

Do you have you're own computer? Do you have a computer with a printer? Does you're friend have a computer with a printer that will let you use it? Do you have a closet, bin, desk, or other suitable hiding place? Do you have a light in your room?

... Do you get where I'm going?

My parents are very flexible about this stuff (including them allowing me to go to life drawing every week) but I still don't tell them that I look at naked people on the internet when they're asleep. :P

[a la bapsi]

lol, same here, jake. I've a...collection...of nude refs in my room somewhere. /cough.
My parents seem to understand how artists are almost required to study and understand human anatomy. I just assume they're fine with me working with nudes.
My mom would be very cool with it, and would probably understand if I have a printout ref of a nakey..
but I take no chances with my dad.
There's something about dads--[in just about every culture?] where they always want their little girls to be little girls forever. :x
I have a feeling he might die a little inside if he finds pics of nude men on my desktop. >_>

But yeah, lilnebo, If you can, don't let them know if/when you draw nudes. But still, I support showing your finished pieces to your parents to show how serious you are about art. So..well..if you do get caught drawing nudes, you'd have proof in their memory [and in your portfolio/sketchbook/art pile] that you're doing it to become a better artist, and not just for the sake of being vulgar or something. :o

[Duq]

Arent there atleast a few passages in the Quran about what you can draw? And how good you need to be before drawing them?

I can remember something about drawing people in real life, even clothed models. Something about needing enough skill, to do the model justice. And if you didnt have that skill, just not do it.

Bah,I wish I could remember it more thoroughly. Anyway, the islam really encourages artists to work on their skills and to improve. And I'm sure there is stuff writting about it in the Quran. Ask your dad about it or a local iman, they can prolly find it faster then me, and allow you to set up your art studies in such a way that it doesnt conflict with your religion. Also by doing it like this, you can prolly get your father to respect your choice and help you out(Think art academy costs, material costs, excursions), instead of creating tension that could destroy a relation that shouldnt be destroyed.

[bhanu]

for some reasons parents...and nudes just dont go along very well.....I have been in this situations too many times... and yes pickin a fight , acting hostile doesnt solve problems...they may come to terms with you drawing nudes if you take a stand..but what good is it ...if it causes rifts in your relationship I have some serious ones in mine and its hard rift to mend ,this one especially with religious people...they easily take offense on issues like nudity and such...religious people are hard to understand....and harder to convince...I can tell what situation you are in prolly....
my dads a conservative hindu.... so just do as all the wise people here have said...anatomy isnt the biggest problem out there man...
Keep drawing anything , everything....

[Ilaekae]

Just an off-hand observation, lilnebo, but you'r skills are very VERY impressive for someone so young and working under some rather nervous circumstances. Keep cool and keep doing what you're doing. If I were your (*cough*grand*cough*)father, I'd be very proud of you...

[dark eagle]

Actually there are a few I know of somehow. Your not allowed to make a representation about some that has been made by god-so no you actually can't draw anything in Islam that isn't real, just like some other north asian culture which says you activly suck the sould out of it once that has been done.


(but then again plastic surgerys' a lot cheaper for rich people.)

[Mirana]

There's something about dads--[in just about every culture?] where they always want their little girls to be little girls forever.

*snerk* Not my dad and I. We made a habit of trying to freak each other out with sexual/nude comments or images. Probably started when I was about 6-7 and "caught" him with Playboy. I asked him what it was (was the obvious implication that I thought he'd get in trouble with mom) and he said, "It's naked girls...see." Didn't know mom had bought it FOR him.... :P My parents didn't really think nudity was a taboo thing other than the obvious, once you're out of diapers you probably shouldn't be bathing with parents of the opposite sex, etc.

I put pictures of drawn naked dudes all over my walls as a teenager. I even had one particularly awesome piece that I made my desktop and then I asked my dad to help me install a new video card. Unfortunately, he enlisted my little bro and once dad set it up, it was the bro that was actually facing the monitor. Dad: "Okay, what do you see now...?" Bro: "Uh....a naked guy....tied up with a........snake." Dad: "Okay, good! That should do it."

He was always winning our little war. Even now. Damn him. ;)

[Ilaekae]

Nothin' you brats do ever surprises us. It's what keeps us one step ahead of you at all times... :P

[Nibras]

ilaekae:See that little comment you made, am going through such a hard day today and that just made my day, if you knew what i was going through right now..... Thanks man, lol it would be awesome if you were my dad or grandad for that matter lol :P
Mirana: one cool father you have lol!!!!
darkeagle: thats not true....

[dark eagle]

Well your not allowed to take pictures of people and hang them up in your rooms, so drawing is just the same except it's you that makes the picture not the camera.

And your not allowed to have faces on pics seeing the Qu'ran so it's a bit obvious isn't it.

[Nibras]

I think i would know more about my religion .......
lol
I have a billion pictures hanging in my room and i draw all the time
you've got the wrong idea

[deepbluehue]

Your own body is your best model. When you have the opportunity, observe the way your clavicles move when you raise your arm and how your scapula moves with it. Pay attention to your joints and how they function. Your knees only bend one way as does your arms. You bend and twist from your waist but your spine doesn't allow you too bend too far backwards or sideways. Use your anatomy books to study the details of your body and then look at your body in action to see what the anatomy looks like with skin over it.

[a la bapsi]

Mirana: Kay, maybe not all dads. xD

You're so lucky. No awkward "why is he naked in your drawing THIS IS INNAPPROPRIATE" moments. -___-

[Matsign]

You've got loads of good suggestions here lilnebo.

Also,

its a picture of a naked person, and not a naked person themselves. Isn't that a principle rule that governs nudie comics? What say you Ilaekae?

[Ilaekae]

Eh, it kind of works both ways, probably. A nude body can be either erotic or non-erotic depending on the circumstances, but strangely, the same thing does happen with depictions of nudity. It is possible to have a drawing or painting that actually surpasses real nudity in an erotic sense. In fact, it might be argued that it's impossible for a real nude to ever achieve the level of eroticism that some depictions of that nudity can because the depiction is a "perfect" fantasy, and fantasy will always beat real life. It's because of the simple fact that nudity, real or drawn, is not necessarily inherently sexy. Eroticism requires the brain to be engaged in "the appropriate business" more than the eyes alone. This engagement is a natural and necessary by-product of art, therefore reality can't quite compete on even ground.

[Mirana]

You're so lucky. No awkward "why is he naked in your drawing THIS IS INNAPPROPRIATE" moments. -___-

Nah, just the one time he asked me if I was gay--"not that it would make a difference, I was just wondering...'cause of all these pictures." Me(female): "Uhh....the ones of GUYS making out?" Dad: "Yeah..." Me: "*falls off the bed laughing* No, dad. I think I'm pretty interested in the opposite sex." In his defense he'd been drinking a bit and he usually gets pretty hilarious under such circumstances. :P

ANYWAY.

Hey Lilnebo, perhaps you could enlighten us on the particulars of your family's beliefs when it comes to art. I seem to remember studying Islamic art in school and how it was always artistic representations of script or plant life(?), but that was a while ago and pertaining only to religious buildings. I'm curious. Is it just nude forms?

[bhanu]

agree with Ilaekaes comment at the top completely , your skills are really good...you are just 14 ...wow...I sucked at 14 ..I suck even now but thats not the point...you are good..so dont stop growing....

[Dave_]

My Parents don't really care about Nudity; 'they're just boobs'. And Quite frankly, they ARE just boobs, when you look at it from a medical or artistical point of view. Ofcouse theres another vieuwpoint :).

Meh about a year ago he even said it was ok to watch porn, as long as there where no virusses etc on the pc. For the rest he's just an a-social, non-speaking, grumpy guy. Unless when he had a few wiskeys, he just talks very loud then.

[Dorkthrone]

The cat is wise. What he said. Keep confrontation and sneaking to an absolute minimum. I know it doesn't seem like it, but you'll be of age before you know it. Meanwhile, pretty much nothing good can come from antagonizing your dad (and nothing will antagonize him more than catching you hiding something he doesn't want you doing).

Draw people with their clothes on. Draw animals. There's so much to learn at the beginning end of the curve, you'll have plenty to do for the next few years...

I second this comment.

[kikindaface]

Hi lilnebo, I'm muslim too, and i know that it's diffficult to make art in a muslim familly, and more difficult, to speak with your father( really bad idea). And i really think that your are young to follow nude drawing course, you can find so many things to draw like animals, nature, or just friends, .... .I will just turn 19 and I'll start to follow nude course next september, but my parents don't know that ( my father will kill me ;) ) So draw, draw, draw, draw, and ... draw.And you have so talent for your young age

[Clodioz]

can you chose to be a muslim? do you want it?

I dont know how does it works in that religion, but im my case my religion lasted until I turned 12 yo more or less... Then I believed in my principles :)

and I'll follow the advices of Walid if he says your father will not tolerate that I better wont tell him :S

[Flake]

btw, if you end up in an art school, most of your fellow students will never have drawn a nude figure before either so it's not like you will be lagging years behind or anything..

[jhgoforth]

@flake: I was going to say something in similiar vein. Outside of the normal red-blooded american teenager seeing naked girls for fun, I'd not studied a nude for drawing till after high school and in my college figure drawing. My family wouldn't have cared, but I never really got as advanced into drawing as the OP has at that age. O.o'''

Personally I always learned from Comic books and advertising/fashion models. Only in college did I really start getting 'academic' in learning to draw properly. So lilnebo is waaaay ahead of where I was at 14.

As far as Islam and art, it is very silly to make the generalizations that "Islam=no figurative art" just as much as "Islam=all women covered in Burkas". Neither is true throughout Islam, just as there is no truth that all members of Christianity believe in certain tenets. The ban on realistic art isn't something profoundly Islamic, in fact it is a carry over that Mohammed brought from the Judaic traditions. Early christians also were against representative art but that fell to the wayside quite quickly. There are Islamic artists who do portraits and beyond (did no one realize all the portraits of Saddam Hussein in Iraq were painted?). So that generalization is silly.

@dark eagle: erm I think you are confused. The Photography stealing your soul is from some tribes in North America. Not from Islamic cultures. <.<''' And no one believes that anymore...wait where did my soul go...damn you Paparazzi!

@lilnebo: Keep up the great studies and don't get overly worried about nude studies for now. You are lightyears ahead of most students you will find later on in art school/university. Try other things like colour theory and composition to fill in if you feel like you need to be 'learning' something new or challenging. Those kinds of things can by themselves occupy artists for their entire lifetime. And don't reject the beauty and simplicity that is in the traditional (ie: middle ages) Islamic art, try to incorporate some of the decorative patterns as you will be more familiar with them and their meanings than others. Plus doing some works with those themes could be a good way of buttering your Father towards some acceptance of your interest in art. ;)

[Nibras]

Thank you for the great tips guys.
With all your ideas and suggs i came up with a bit of a way to get around it, tell me what you guys think.
Draw my self:
Basically life drawing and studying my own body, that should be good practise right?
Draw clothed figures
people with clothes can still teach gesture movment, poses
Sometimes people like to wear alot of short clothing so you get alot of their body parts it helps me alot, and clothed people also help with proportions, rendering, understanding form, light, shapes and line
Draw People with skin tight clothing, like ballet dancers, divers, gymnasts, or underwear models:
People with skin tight clothing give off the shape or silhouttee of the body, also good for poses and gestures, limbs etc. Swimers only wear like little boxer thingies lol so you get to see alot of their bodies, how it moves and the muscles look and work under the skin etc
Draw parts of the body seprate like arms legs heads hands feet etc:
Literally when studying like the arms, go into websites like image after and google and just find reference of 1 part of the body, etc legs and try to draw them in different angels and positions.
Draw from anatomy books
To learn the basics and stuff, just reading and drawings from anatomy books.
Well thats for figures, and i wanna start getting into animal anatomy and creature design.
Am also focusing on just my foundations and just drawings from reference and life i think helps like crazy
because I guess you can pull almost anything off with strong foundations, like craig mullins and Marko and wes all people who have a strong understanding.
I love you people of CA, you totally rock
Peace

[bhanu]

I am so happy when threads have a last comment like that of yours.... so much better than those never ending political...or other shitty threads...which solve no purpose ...and end up making some kinda foes..

[zenichi]

There is no such thing as a muslim baby....


sorry to say this ,but yes there is such a thing as a muslim baby. in my country, if your parents are muslim, you are born a muslim. if you want to change religion, you'll have to wait till you are an adult by the religion court (which probably is different from 18years of age, not sure, as i'm not a muslim), if your reasoning is acceptable then they might consider "de-registering" you as a muslim.

lilnebo, good luck in pursuing your interest!

(edit: sorry if i sounded off in my post, but what i was trying to say is that there are countries (unfortunately mine) with weird muslim laws (apart from the common law that the rest of us has to abide) that actually brand your unborn child as a muslim (if your parents are already a muslim)!! and if you've decided your faith otherwise, you actually have to prove it to someone other than yourself! (if you decided to get married to a muslim person, you'll have to convert to muslim faith too, i suppose that's the same for some faction of Christianity, but maybe due to relationship practicality, here its mandatory) i guess for most these sounded like sci-fi and stuff only found in movies. but i'm just glad i get to choose my religion "freely" and the process is a life long exploration as i would like to be exposed to various faiths, believes, philosophies & cultures around the world. cheers)

[jhgoforth]

sorry to say this ,but yes there is such a thing as a muslim baby. in my country, if your parents are muslim, you are born a muslim. if you want to change religion, you'll have to wait till you are an adult by the religion court (which probably is different from 18years of age, not sure, as i'm not a muslim), if your reasoning is acceptable then they might consider "de-registering" you as a muslim.

lilnebo, good luck in pursuing your interest!

It's from Richard Dawkin's book, The God Delusion. No one can be born 'christian' or 'muslim' or any other religion. Those are labels put on children by parents/society. A baby did not decide to be a certain religion, the parents decide that for them. You can be born African, Hispanic, etc, but not born a religion, it's not coded in your DNA.

And religions don't 'de-register' you lol. If a traditional family then you are in their eyes and the eyes of conservative versions of religion, in a state of apostasy. In the strictest sense you become dead to your family. At the best, your family would merely ignore lack of religion or secretly hope you will 'one day see the light'. But the more conservative the family's religious beliefs the less likely to self-delude or ignore will be. And this applies to all religions and not one in particular. (Apostasy and Heresy were punishable by death in christianity in some periods on up to merely social ostracization at later periods, even to some extent still today [see quakers,mormons,amish]).

[Black Spot]

Can we keep on topic? I’m sure lilnebo has her own thoughts on her religion and knows the limitations imposed as she clearly expressed above.

[Mr_S_14]

Here's a couple of suggestions that may get him to become a little more understanding that may help. ok, the first thing that came to mind is study animals also, keep doing the human figures ofcourse but do animal studies as well, perhaps if he sees they're the same or similar thing it will help, another suggestion would be to take him to a community art gallery or museum, human figures can't be avoided at this point, and perhaps all that's needed is an example. however some people are really set in there wayssuch as the slightest hint of skin is "P0rN like omg". Also if there's an art place near you with group tours maybe you could do that, that's way he'll have to stay with the group, even around figure art. Forced uncomfortable moments, woot.
Or you could keep your art to yourself, however that's not entirely suggested, I think anyone would be much more successful and happy if a parent in one way or another is accepting or positively involved in a childs interests.

~Mr_S_14
P.S. Keep doing what you love no matter what.

[jhgoforth]

Can we keep on topic? I’m sure lilnebo has her own thoughts on her religion and knows the limitations imposed as she clearly expressed above.

Fair enough, but I'm not terribly fond of seeing people spout generalizations about cultures and religions. That's the kind of stuff that leads us to the state of the world we are in right now. ;P

[Seedling]

With all your ideas and suggs i came up with a bit of a way to get around it, tell me what you guys think.
Peace

This is a great plan of attack, lilnebo.

Ilaekae and rpace are full of sage advice, particularly about not sneaking around with your art. You have many years ahead of you in which you will be free to draw nudes, and if you play your cards right, you can gain your dad’s support eventually, rather than sabotaging your efforts by keeping something hidden for him to eventually discover.

Here is another suggestion for you, lilnebo. Draw a flayed human figure in an interesting pose. Get all the muscles as accurately drawn as possible, as an anatomy study, and leave out the bits that your dad would object to. Then, trace the outline of that pose, and draw a costume on the traced version.

Also, practice perspective. SO many artists neglect to learn perspective, to their detriment. There is a link in my sig to info on perspective for you. . .

You are doing great! Keep up the good work.

[Nibras]

hhahaha seedling i love how you always say, theres a link in my Sig for this and that
And yea i will practise prespective
And do more of it
Thanks tons for the advice guys i just keep on adding things which i can do

[jhgoforth]

another good thing is master studies (one which I'm forcing myself to do more of as well). study painters that have very figurative works and you can kinda work some of that anatomy in. Not as good as a model, but you will probably learn the tricks the master's used and compare to what you have learned from anatomy books.

[Nintendo_zombie]

I have the same problem, only I'm coming from a Christian based family.
Honestly, if you're mature enough, there's nothing wrong seeing the human
body naked, as long as it's for the sake of knowledge, and not to just
be like.. "Ahh yeaaaaaaah, NUDITY! YES! OH!" You know??

Right now, my mom is a bit off on it, but really.. my dad can't deny it.
He does art, so he should understand, dunno if he really does or doesn't.
For now (I'm a guy) when I draw women nude, I just leave out the "private"
areas. Example, I'll draw the outline of a breat, minus the nipple.

Just don't draw suggestive themes, that's when the parents get upset.

[JustinBeckett]

Why don't you tell a little fib and say you are going to the library after school and go to a life drawing drop in, and draw nude figures there?

~JB

[JParrilla]

Why don't you tell a little fib and say you are going to the library after school and go to a life drawing drop in, and draw nude figures there?

~JB

Probably not the best bit of advice Ive seen here.

[Flake]

^
Yeah, don't do that.

Nothing personal JB, but that's not a good plan in these circumstances.

[Mirana]

Um, when I was a kid and went to life drawing if you were a minor you had to have a note from your parents. When I did semi-clothed modeling for a bunch of high school students, their parents all had to sign waivers (and I was wearing more than a bikini). Not that a teacher would know a forgery, but still...playing with fire there.

[armando]

I didn't read all the responses so it's likely I'm repeating:

The most important parts of the body to get a good hang of drawing are faces and hands, that's easy enough to do from a mirror. Having a lot of experience drawing nudes doesn't guarantee skill at drawing people with clothes on anyway, who gives a damn what the exact shading of someone's ass cheek is. Drawing trees with convoluted branches helps just as much as drawing nudes.

[Silvertone]

If you don't have access to figure drawing class, I like the idea of going to a museum and drawing statues. They are the best models and never move! Are there any in your area you could go to?

Zoos of course for animals, (and people).

The internet is a great source of reference for you. Google image search or go to Flickr and search for statues, greek, classical, contrapposto, artists, even stuff like sports etc, you'll find some stuff for sure. Oh, and Getty Images too.

There's also this site, which I think has some stuff for free and may or may not be parent approved...(link is to the free sample page)

http://www.3d.sk/?id=15

Another that your parents might not approve but does have some clothed figures too...

http://www.characterdesigns.com/index.php?sitepage=photosets

Libraries are great places to hit up to for art books.

I have this book called The Human Figure, by E.A Ruby (http://books.google.com/books?id=MwQPcYvGMiAC&dq=ruby,+the+human+figure&pg=PP1&ots=ubNUvRDY7x&sig=F1qTYsbr7-oyURxAdhuO_Abuc4U&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA6,M1). It has great poses for men, women, infants, toddlers, expressions, close ups of hands, feet, portraits of varying ages, ethnicities, etc. The male model is not fully nude but wears a jock strap so there is no dude private parts but the female is fully nude. Don't know if your parents would approve but thought I'd throw it out there.

~cheers~

[JTown]

You can draw people well without drawing nudes. Call me a prude - but I don't think it's right to be drawing nudes (unless it's your spouse... but you shouldn't share the pics).

Earlier in life I studied nudes- and I've come to this decision later in life... but the point is that you can learn to draw people witout learning how to draw them naked. Think basic shapes.

This world would be better if more people started listening and respecting their parents instead of breeding rebellion by teaching us to disobey authorities placed over us. But I honestly do understand how you feel in the matter.

[rpace]

This world would be better if more people started listening and respecting their parents instead of breeding rebellion by teaching us to disobey authorities placed over us.

The absolute level of wrongness in that statement boggles. That type of thinking says authoritarian rule is acceptable. It's backward and truly dangerous.

Rebellion is an important part of the development of our civilisation and our independant identities as free people. Think of all the growth in culture and science that would have been stomped out of being if that was meme of all cultures.

All authority should be questioned and rebelled against if necessary. To stop questioning is to lay down and die.

~R

[Jens]

wow JTown that's fantastic, you have such intresting wonderfull delightfull insights about this world, really well done.. I'd love to share a stuffed turkey with you over thanksginving while drinking coca cola and eating kraft foods and saluting to the american flag.. you rock

[Ilaekae]

JTown, I'm going to prove, contrary to popular belief here, just how patient, mature and tolerant of rank stupidity I can be by not saying a single thing about your post. Have a nice day.

[JParrilla]

You can draw people well without drawing nudes. Call me a prude - but I don't think it's right to be drawing nudes (unless it's your spouse... but you shouldn't share the pics).

Earlier in life I studied nudes- and I've come to this decision later in life... but the point is that you can learn to draw people witout learning how to draw them naked. Think basic shapes.

This world would be better if more people started listening and respecting their parents instead of breeding rebellion by teaching us to disobey authorities placed over us. But I honestly do understand how you feel in the matter.


????? WTF? Sorry Ilaekae but I must respond and be immature i guess. Actually I dont know what to say other than WTF? Breeding rebellion JTown? sounds a little bit extreme buddy.. drawing nudes is not watching porn.. theres a broad line between the two. Basic shapes are a lot easier to see without clothes on by the way. If your an artist you would not have made that statement

[BubbaGump]

I'm 15 and I draw nudes. My parents would be okay with it, but it would just be too awkward to tell them. By the way, Dad, I lurv drawing t3h tittehs! Yeah...no.

The subject's been never brought up (they don't know much about art anyway other than my interest for it) and things are awkward enough with parents during the teenage years. This is fact and you all know it.

Drawing nudes helps understand form, anatomy, and gesture and it's extremely important in understanding the human body. It's not pr0n, it's not hentai. There is barely anything sexually explicit about it other than the fact the people you're drawing are naked.

Why tell your parents you're drawing nudes? Do you draw right in front of them? Go to your room, lock the door, and go on characterdesign. You're not doing anything wrong. It's not drugs, alcohol, or unprotected sex. You're drawing nudes to improve yourself as an artist and to understand the parts beneath the clothes to make your figures believable in the future.

Just because it's something done in secret doesn't mean it's bad. It's only a big deal if you make it one.

[Sudsy]

Recommendation: Don't get kicked out of the house... Once you aren't under your parents roof draw whatever you want. In the mean time, I'd recommend using posemaniacs, or Gray's Anatomy (the book) to learn a bit on until you have more freedom (thats what I did when I was 15...).

I was a prude then, and still am, and I still see the need to draw a figure near nude or even nude. I don't endorse open rebellion because I don't want to see you lose your pencils if your folks get mad! Just don't leave your sketches laying around out in the open if you decide to be sneaky like... This would be a great time to master the skeletal system if all else fails...

...that, and if you lose your pencils and paper at home, chalk works great on the sidewalk...

[Crane]

I believe you should be thinking in future terms, even if you do it in secret, you'll be damn grateful you did 1,2,3,4 etc years from now, otherwise its just wasted time when you could have been learning and improving, sure you can draw everything else, but the human body is one of the most important things to know how to draw by far.

saying this, i've never been one to let anything get in the way of my artistic improvement, i never had the problem of not being able to draw nudes, but if i had, my answer would have been a middle finger, and a hell of alot of naked drawings lol.

not saying be rude to your parents, thats just what i do when anyone tells me i can't do something, (got a real big 'fuck you' attitude) just saying any improvement you make, even if you feel guilty about it, will benefit you in the long run.

Jtown, the scene in irobot where spooner and that chick are talking to the head guy and spooner sneezes, when asked whats wrong he says 'sorry, i'm allergic to bullshit' comes to mind......

h3nt41 roxors!! pron from a pencil

[Ilaekae]

Warhog, you mean well here, but this is a completely different situation. I'm not sure if you read the OP's original discussion, but this is more than a simple attitude of prudishness from one or more parents. Giving the finger could literally get this young lady into serious trouble, and possibly put her in harm's way... It's a cultural thing that may be extreme by our standards, but none the less, exists, and she is trying very hard to make sense of her path under those cultural restrictions.

Go back and read the thread again from the beginning, and then possibly--POSSIBLY--rethink your advice here...

[Toxdel]

haha, I'm 18 and my parents still tease me about my "nudey" drawings, plus I live in probably the most conservative minded state in America, and still get away with it. I'm sure you'll find a way around the rule ;) just nothing that would piss your parents off I don't think you want to do that :D

[pencilgeek]

I'm 15 I told my dad it chould be worst I chould be on drugs, or knocked up a girl, I chould be a dad at 15 y'know. Or not knowen where I am like at 5 in the mornin... You know he got the ponit lol.

[VulgarDragon]

I had the same situation. I didn't draw nudes when I was your age...my mom was very prudish (and still is). I had to draw what I can in private, and hid them from my parents. I do agree that you should try to respect your parents on that, at least until you can be on your own. If you must, keep it to yourself and scribble some clothes on them when you are done :)

[Ilaekae]

I, strangely, had no problem with stuff like this when I was small. My parents were millworkers and not all that sophisticated by some people's standards, I guess, and we lived in an old-fashioned ethnic neighborhood, but they never once stood in my way. I still have the first paper-back book my mother ever bought me on how to draw nudes when I think I was about eight.

[Crane]

Warhog, you mean well here, but this is a completely different situation. I'm not sure if you read the OP's original discussion, but this is more than a simple attitude of prudishness from one or more parents. Giving the finger could literally get this young lady into serious trouble, and possibly put her in harm's way... It's a cultural thing that may be extreme by our standards, but none the less, exists, and she is trying very hard to make sense of her path under those cultural restrictions.

Go back and read the thread again from the beginning, and then possibly--POSSIBLY--rethink your advice here...

Aye, it prob would have been a good thing to brush up on the culture before opening my mouth, agreed, hell, thats where learning comes from, mistakes.

but now i think ill leave the advice giving to someone... wiser, to say the least, i don't believe i'm educated enough to even try and understand the extreme parts of culture.

by all means, don't be giving the finger, and good luck with sorting this out.

[Demonique768]

wow i didn know there were people that faced the same problem i had. Im a girl and I come from a muslim family and my rents would have had a huge problem too (if I told them). I got out of highschool and went to college for arts just failed to mention nude drawing. if you're young say like 14 those 'private parts' dont exist. but once u get older that 'private part' ordeal goes away. the argument i used was if i was in medschool id have to see and touch naked dead people (both wrong for girls islamically) but they would have been ok with that because its med school.

its been 5 years now my mom still cringes when my lifedrawin is all over the place. haha u find the humour in that reaction eventually. ur life in the end is ur life

[JIVA*SOUL]

spandex.

everybody wins.

:)

[Mirana]

Heh, my fiancee's parents are Catholic. When his mom found out he was drawing nudes in college she wanted him to get his profs to give him an exemption from seeing nekkid people. He laughed at her. :P When we moved in together she wanted to know if we had room for two beds.....so cute.

[Nibras]

Mirana, she was just kidding her self with the 2 beds thingy
whens shes about to sleep at night she's probably like its ok my son sleeps in one bed and his gf in the other no need to worry hahah but she knows its a lie!
Parents are so wierd...... they want you to stay a kid for ever

[Mirana]

LOL, she was totally serious...and that's when my future dad-in-law yelled, "Oh, COME ON! They are not going to be sleeping in TWO BEDS!" XD

Which is funny, b/c when we visit we are still only allowed to sleep in two beds (now the same room...used to be not even that), whilst his much older sister (also not married) got to sleep in one bed with HER beau. I should also mention that me and mine were engaged and together for yrs, and she and hers were not and had only known each other a few months. WTH? We guess it's b/c she still thinks of him as her "baby."

[Nibras]

Told you they never want their kids to grow up
Even though they got up to the excact same thing at their age :P