Visual Development Mentorship with Jason01

[jason01]

Ok - Now we're starting this thing. We are going to take you through the process of visual development. Starting with character design, continuing on with turnarounds, environments, story beats, and the like.

But first we're going go over the story - The story we will develop is the Alice in Wonderland. You can set this in the future, the past, fantasy . . . how ever you want - but you must have 5 characters - Alice, the cheshire cat, The Queen of Hearts, The king of hearts, and the white rabbit. How you choose to depict these is your choice.

Now - we're going to start with some character design. Remember to stick to basic shapes. I want to see some inspirational pictures - the style you're trying to emulate, and pictures of the time period you're going for.

Remember - you can take an interesting shape and apply it to any time period you need. So do a page of silhouettes for each character (at least 20 ideas for each).


oh yeah - when you first post - introduce yourself.


if you'd like to see my work it's at www.jasonpruett.com

[jason01]

I'm going to be at the San Diego Comiccon this week - and the next week is pretty crazy for me - but the assignments should take about a week - you should put some work into them and I'll respond when I can

[Nadesican]

Im...a little confused. Is this an open mentorship, or do you have mentees already?

[jason01]

there are a few mentees - if you want to join, send me a link to show me your work - but I can probably only handle a few people . . .

oh yeah - and you should look at what Chris Appelhans did with Alice in Wonderland - here's the link - it's amazing

http://www.froghatstudios.com/portemp.html

[alffla]

hi jason, this visual development mentorship seems very interesting. it would be great if you could consider me and well, train me to be a better artist! :) so please take a look at my sketchbook with some of my work and i'll also post some older pieces i've done in the past if you like.

thanks!

[thek]

Thanks for taking me on Jason!

I work in web design and development but I've always wanted to draw well and create characters to fit the scenarios i see in my head.

I have a sketchbook, the link to which is in my sig, and I'm reallylooking forward to this assignment!

Jason, that Alice in Wonderland re-imagining is stunning. Such imagination - especially to the Caterpillar and the Cheshire Cat! And the execution...

[thek]

Hope you're having a nice time at comic-con Jason, i've always envied those who are able to go! I'll have to time my first US trip to coincide with comic con methinks.

The time period I'm choosing is ancient Egyptian civilisation. It was the first thing that popped into my head, and then thinking about it, I thought, 'what if the Alice in Wonderland that we know was based on ancient history?'. Then I thought that the Cheshire Cat could have been an actual deity, seeing how the Egyptians revered them so. Also, I thought that Alice should still be from a privileged background - and maybe that would mean that she would be slightly plump - not overly fat - just not your stereoptypically skinny heroine. I've switched between an adolescent and a much younger Alice in the silhouettes - I thought it might be easier getting away with the rounder figure if the character was younger - but I quite like the idea of a fuller figure adolescent alice also.

Right, here are my first silhouettes. I'll update this post as and when I finish the silhouettes for the other characters with a final mood board for the kind of style I wish to use. I found doing these silhouettes quite tough - maybe I was sticking to the resource material a bit too rigidly which limited my choice of shapes? Maybe it'll get easier with the next batch.

[jason01]

good start. I like the egyptian idea - really works. lotta possibilities. I recommend taking a gander at the book that does the art of Prince of Egypt. It's really amazing. also http://ben-balistreri-interview.blogspot.com/ - Ben's really good at shapemaking and variation.

****
Remember class - all your characters must work together - they must look cohesive and you need to tell them apart (and who is who) from a distance -
Aladdin was amazing for this

http://www.jacksonfish.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/disney_lg.gif
****



as far as your silhouettes - they are pretty similar. Try more variation. And push the shapes. something I am always learning, too - keep pushing. make the big shape bigger, the contrast more extreme.

I took the page into photoshop and used the liquify tool on a few of them - this is a really quick way to play around with your drawing. make a copy and push the shapes - you can get a bunch of variations really quickly.

I also drew a few examples and pointed out that a lot of times your major masses are very similar is size.

check out these artist and see how they handle shape and variation.
http://creaturebox.com/
http://markbehm.com/gallery.html
http://www.seegmillerart.com/
http://avalanchesoftware.blogspot.com/

oh - and Bobby and Kei are amazing - check it at http://www.imaginismstudios.com/portfolio.html

plus - Richard Doble's creature design tutorial is really good. . . . um - so is Marko's . . hmm. . . .

well - that should get you started.

[thek]

Wow, that really transformed my silhouettes! They flow so much better now. To tell the truth I started to really struggle after the first 5 or so, and I know there was repetition in those. After I got to 10 I started digging out the books and researching just for different shapes I could use. I've got Bobby and Kei's "Girl Sketches" and I had a quick look through that. I think I'm starting to understand that silhouettes can be pretty much any shape and that the detailing can work any shape into the character? I think with my silhouettes I was stuck with trying to make it the silhouette of a finalised design of a little girl which made them all similar.

Those links you've posted are amazing. Really inspiring! I was especially impressed by Ben Balistreri. I'd seen some articles on his new comic book before, but looking at how his designs use shape and variation made me appreciate his work on a different level.

[alffla]

i guess no space here for any extra mentees?

[jason01]

dlquddnr - yeah - join in. so far, only one of the people I agreed to mentor has signed on . . . I looked at your stuff and I think I can help - so . . get drawing.

[thek]

Had a go at the King of Hearts last night and went with marker on paper because i felt I could be more free with the shapes. I was thinking about the Queen as well while doing these, because I think like the Aladdin character sheet, the King and Queen should contrast each other?

Tried to avoid repetition too, but I think some might have crept in there! Enjoyed doing this a lot more than Alice though and I didn't get as 'stuck'.

Welcome on board dlquddnr!

[Arteater]

Room for 1 more mentee ?

[alffla]

thank you jason! i will work my hardest :) will post some character silhouettes soon

[jason01]

arteater - saw your stuff - like all your fish variations - that's what I'm talking about.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113582&page=5

Thek - I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd like to see you put more time into your work - take your silhouettes more to the level of that fish page - have more variations - but put some time and thought into it - don't just show me every scribble you do. doing concept art, you do a lot of drawing that no one ever sees. You don't show your art director everything.

I'd rather see 6 really thought out silhouettes (means you probably have to draw 50 or 60 and refine the ones you like and then do a clean version of the 6).

From those 6 we'll chose 1 to pursue. you'll then do variations of costumes and faces on that one.

[thek]

Sorry, I've really misunderstood the silhouetting - I was going for 'as spontaneous as possible' with the silhouettes which I guess by my standards means really messy. I even have a few pages I didn't scan which I thought were really bad! I'll finalise my favourites from the ones I've done and finish them up to a higher standard - then do that for the ones I do from now on. You're right - I need to take the extra step of refining and being selective.

Arteater, love your sketchbook. Great stuff! You've set a high bar with your fishes now :)

[comixnut]

G'day guys, my name is PJ and i have to thank Jason for also taking me on. I've been working on Alice and the queen so far but i have to admit this is pretty hard having to do so many different versions of the same character.

Also i went ahead and did something silly, probably, and chose 'future/futuristic' as my era - was that wrong?

I am trying to see if i can make the scanner here at tafe work if not i will post it when i get home.

[comixnut]

DAmmit both the future and the silhouette were already menioned! GRrrrrr (instead of doing sillouettes i did what you see.

[alffla]

WOW chris appelhans' work with alice in wonderland is amazing.. i hope we all end up with something up to par with that o_O

anyway, i think i'll try to base my alice in wonderland in the wonderful world of the ....70's! all groovy and fros and bellbottoms etc.

424503

424507

hope these are okk

[jason01]

ok - first of all - I like your range of ideas. But drawing realistically isn't really happening, huh? so - your mission - should you choose to accept it, is to take basic shapes and stay within the confines of those.

As you see on the girl - I took a circle and added small appendages - but it's a strong design - and I rather like it. try triangles, ovals, rectangles, etc. it's basic, yes -- but some of the best designs are the most basic. it's what you do with it.

[jason01]

as my football coach used to say "go big or go home!" - your characters lack variety.

Guys - you need to read feedback I post for other people and apply it to yourselves.

That being said, I dig the 70s look. That's some good reference. what is it? a psychedelic adventure in wonderland? Groovy, baby. I didn't do much - but you can see - if there's a fro - make it a FRO! if a guy's skinny, make him skinny. if there's a girl - don't make her a box, girls have curves, yo. some more than others, and yes, there are some box girls out there- but not for a 70s psychedelic wonderland!

make the bellbottoms bellbottomier and let's see some platform shoes!


oh yeah - one more thing - express the character with pose! you have great disco opportunity here - use it! if ever there was a gimme era of poses, this was it!

#######everyone#######
you should be reading each other's posts and my responses and using the feedback for yourselves.

Also - use a pose that defines the character - sad character make sad, flamboyant make flamboyant, sexy make sexy, stupid make stupid --- not only have the body type that says this - but the pose, too
####################

[thek]

comixnut, nice thing about the future is it can be any point in the future! Good start, I think doing silhouettes would help keep your options open though - so you don't get too locked into a particular design now.

dlq, really nice theme! Great research too! The idea's got loads of potential!

Jason, you've done some amazing stuff with transforming all of our silhouettes. I'm still finding it difficult coming up with the variety in shape that you seem to be able to do so effortlessly. I can see the distinct personalities in the shapes you create and I'm still finding it hard to do that.

That said, I am trying. I've spent every day this week on the train and before bed doodling a few silhouettes to try and get some variety and character into them. I've come to realise that with my first batch of silhouettes, I already had an idea of my version of alice in my head and that was a real limiter on what I could develop. With these ones, I've had all the rough sketches in my sketchbook, and then without tracing, I drew my favourites again in photoshop, re-evaluating them - trying to experiment one last time before saving the file. I've done sketches for The Queen as well but I need to send those through quality control. I hope these are better?

[armetage]

Hi my name is Robin Olausson 23 Years old from South Of Sweden. Im also under the wings of jason as one of his mentees, so lets get this show going.
Here is a couple of thumbs i did today, still working on it. My interpitation of this story is evil/demon themed.

[jason01]

[QUOTE=armetage;1864647
Here is a couple of thumbs i did today, still working on it. My interpitation of this story is evil/demon themed.[/QUOTE]

ok - I know you do a ton of thumbs - that's great. just don't show them all to me. Just show me the best ones. pick a 6 to clean up and desplay on this forum.

that being said, it seems to me you have a sort of Pan's Laberynth feel to this. That's great if that's what you want.

I've picked a few that I liked and numbered them. - make sure they have arms unless you don't want them to have arms. if you show me something without arms - I'm going to guess that you want to have a character with no arms.

you've got some good poses for some of the characters - as you'll notice with #1 - I took it and pushed her into a more powerful pose. she feels stronger now.

on #2 I like the guy's feet.
#4 I like the guy's legs but the head needs designing.
#5 good pose - looks sneaky - but push it
#8 - don't know what's going on with his head - is this on of those plume's like the 3 musketeers? and what's one of the 3 musketeer's doing in this world? - but I like his attitude.
#9 - save the leg detail for the next step - right now, focus on a strong silhouette

oh yeah - and that cheshire cat you had - didn't fit with your style. keep things consistant

as with all my comments - they are just suggestions - take them or leave them - but I hope you take them.


keep 'em coming - it looks like you have an exciting project and a lot of potential.

[jason01]

Thek - much better.

a few things - make the pose clear, make the joints clear - and it's you're doing a side view, don't just do 1/2 the body.

on the mad hatter - I like #2, 3. and #5 - don't know what you were going for - a Tiki mask sort of thing? and I don't know that #2 is a mad hatter - but I like the shape for something - maybe a guard - maybe the mad hatter is a guy wearing nothing but a hat and an apron and he's got a beard and prances around the garden.

and with the king - the 2 guys on the left look like they're falling over. and #5 looks too much like the disney king of hearts. - I wrote strong and weak because those are what I see the characters as, not weak design, but weak king. so - do you want a weak king?

personally I'd like to see you develop #3 and #6 - what's going on with #6 - any arms? is that a skull?

refine all of these - paying attention to the feedback and submit the next set in a few days.


keep it up

[armetage]

Thanks, il try some more. Im trying to keep away from the cartoon style as much as possible since im not very interested in that. The "details within the thumb takes me like 2 sec to make so its not much of a problem for me at this stage, i just make it on a few once to try the concept a bit further after focusing on the silhouette.
Hehe yeah the style looks something like pans labyrint, il have to work some more on that.. the thing is that ive never read, seen or watched Alice in wonderland, just a few quick images from the net, and those i dont want to watch too much since that will inprint too much in my brain and destroy the idea flow.
Im sorry for displaying too many thumbs, will only show a few next time no problem
Thanks again

[jason01]

Thanks, il try some more. Im trying to keep away from the cartoon style as much as possible since im not very interested in that.

don't do cartoon style if that's what you're not interested in. But the silhouette still needs to be clear and different from the other characters. Just not as crazy.

[comixnut]

An actual proper reply coming soon (and thanks for this Jason).

First my research which i should have done to begin with.

[armetage]

don't do cartoon style if that's what you're not interested in. But the silhouette still needs to be clear and different from the other characters. Just not as crazy.

Yeah sure I understand the purpoes of thumbnails and strong shilouettes, The important thing is how good they read from distance so good variation of basic shapes is important

[alffla]

hi there jason thank you for the feedback and crits. will try to exaggerate more in the future O_o hope these latest silhos are better~

428797

[thek]

You're right about the falling over - it happens a lot in my drawings, I fail to get the balance right and yet never notice until someone points it out. I didn't notice the Disney King thing until you said it - which is weird because right from the outset I've been thinking, "do the opposite of Disney"! I guess the Disney characters have become so iconic they keep coming back to me.

Again, I love the refinements you've done on my silhouettes - i'll try and keep your points about detailing in mind for the next set. The mask is a great idea too! I was thinking he just had specs of some sort and an elaborate headpiece which he had made extremely large to give himself a sense of importance. Mad Hatter 2 was supposed to have placed a homemade crown of sorts with his hair poking through the other side. Since you wrote the post I can already see him prancing around the garden with nothing on. Poor Alice!

King number 6 I wanted to have an extremely large collar which would form a heart shape in silhouette - but because I wanted to show where the head would be I coloured it in white. It wasn't supposed to be a skull! A skull could be an interesting idea though... give the story a different spin. I haven't decided on a weak or strong king yet which is why the silhouettes vary so much. As long as the Queen is the opposite I think it could be either at this stage.

Armetage, an interesting theme - I think you've got real style to your silhouettes. They're beautifully drawn.

[jason01]

first off - Comixnut - that reference is crazy! where did you find all that? amazing.


dlquddnr - put some time into these. #1 and #5 are too similar. is # 1 a girl? #2 - are those ears or hair? - be clear. I like #4 - the flowing hippy dress. your construction is lousy - #7's left arm is bigger than the right arm.

hey - put some time into this - I'm putting time into the feedback - taking time away what i've got going on - if you're not going to put in a good effort or good work - don't put it up - if this is the best you can do -- you're going nowhere fast -- come back in a few years when you've got something worth showing.

[alffla]

hey jason thanks for the feedback and crits again

i think the problem i have right now is just that i've never been much of a character drawing person. also this is the first time i've done any char silhouettes and i guess my lack of experience in this area is just glaringly clear. maybe i should drop out of this mentorship for a bit and study anatomy and things before trying this out again.

sorry if i've wasted your time

[comixnut]

thek you really did take what jason gave you in the crits into your next design. THose five or six silhouettes were crazy good in raltion to where you started, in the context of what we are doing of course. I cannot wait to see what you are going to post next!

Jason this year is the first time i've done... well a lot of firsts really, but exploratory design is just crazy shit and in order to do it i've had to really get good AND fast at finding reference. All of those are out of about 2hrs search through the net, and i agree there are some crazy things in there! :D

dlquddnr i could not disagree with you more and i believe i am in the very same boat as you, with but a few months worth more of experience, all of which i am glad to share with you in order for you to see how much you can really get out of something like this, but i'll wait until Jason has his say dude! :)

[comixnut]

Armetage i saw those pages you made for DEEP craaaazy! :) Awesome to have you along.

which brings me to a request, Jason- can we post all of our thumbs in like a much smaller file for the rest of us to look at and just get ideas from and learn from each other and make a larger file with the select few we have chosen for you to critique? I would not like to think i am missing out on anything thek or armetage are doing! :D

[jason01]

if you make sure the sketches are tiny - like 1 cm or something - maybe you guys should try that - do 100 sketches: each one 1 cm tall. you'll have a definite focus on silhouette - I'll give it a go, too. do it in photoshop, black against white.

make the page 10 cm x 10 cm - I just did a few - 10cm x 10cm at 72 dpi.

here's the grid and here are some silhouettes I did real quickly. impossible for detail. but surprising how much you can do.

[armetage]

Here are my 2 setups.
Nice work everyone.. Keep it up guys

[armetage]

ops, in the second picture, i switched place on queen and king, hope you notice ;>

[pixeldrops]

Hi my name is Terrence.

I have passion for animation and sketching. I would like to thank Jason for taking me on as one of his mentees.

I have not been keeping well lately, still recovering would have loved work on all character silhouettes, but was only able to do the king and queen silhouettes.

I am going for a Chinese theme, where Alice falls and reaches China.
Some reference images and the silhouettes

[jason01]

ok -

pixeldrops - these are looking pretty good. I like the style. Remember to number the silhouettes.

first question - are these characters neckless? do they have floating heads - it's ok if they do - but if you want them to have necks draw that in.

I like #1 and #2 - but they are the same height. vary the height. same with 3 and 4. Overall, you have good shapes - but are they the best they can be? have you tried pushing it further?

and with #11 - are those feet attached to his body or is he like one of those oysters on the Disney Alice in Wonderland? - with detached feet?

try pushing these more - and if you don't like the results - go with these - my favorites for iconic shapes are 1, 2, 10 and 13 - I also like 12, but it doesn't say "Chinese" to me as much as the others

[comixnut]

Man i have been trying forever now to get soe time to get back to this. Woke up early at 5am today to have a go but because i am trying to get used to the graphics tablet and photoshop it is a bit slow (even though i am already faster than at the start of the week... shortcuts rule! LOL)

ok so i really did not have any idea where my story was going, since i have done this very little times before, so it has been hard to just churn out ideas without something to base it on (future/space in general is a bit too broad to help).

So when i was reading Jason's critique, one of his paint-overs really set my head going. So here's a little story:

Alice's dad is a really really bad guy. Everyone has stayed away from her at school, she's developed into a bit of an emo/goth. Although she managed to get attention by somehow getting really good at computer games even though she does not really like them. The queen's husband is also a really really REALLY bad guy but because they have money and connections the queen struck a deal with authorities and created an amusment park where other bad guys in the galaxy get invited to really basically get killed by the homicidal king. Hence the queen always yelling about "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"

The rest of the characters will fit in there somewhere. I hope this is ok Jason, and if so Alice and the rest of the designs will be based around that premise.

[comixnut]

... i forgot to mention that in Alice's case, she's the one who ends up taking the invitation in a little tantrum moment and end's up in 'WONDERLAND'! Where she has to use her computer skills to get herself out!

Is that waaaay too cliche or is it doable?

[jason01]

comixnut - is it doable? yes. is it cliche? does that matter? it gives you direction.

thanks for numbering these

ok - well - they're all too similar in size.

#1 - looks like a sewn doll
#2 - good posture - she's got attitude
#3 - could push the thing on the head
#4 - I don't know what this is - but it should be bigger, I think.
#5 - another one I'm not sure what it is
#6 - loaded with weapons - looks like a skinny guy with weapons. if it's a girl, give her some hips. it doesn't take much. keep it up. - you're making progress.

I think the biggest thing that would help is for you to vary the size of the characters.

[thek]

Sorry about the lateness guys. I've had a hellish past couple of weeks.

Here are my silhouettes to date compiled, and adjusted.

[thek]

Comixnut, thanks for your comments - I still feel pushing the shapes doesn't come naturally to me, but I'm trying! I'm really digging the imagination in your silhouettes, each one has a story already.

dlquddnr , I've got to say this - I wanted to say it a week ago but unfortunately I could get the time to come onto the board. You've got the chance to learn from a very talented artist - and your ideas are already there. You just have to spend a little bit of time thinking about construction and clean up your edges - two things that maybe you hadn't considered before. If you take just those two things on board you'll progress really quickly, don't take jason's comments as personal attacks, take them constructively. Please reconsider.

Armetage, lovely style as always, and I really like the way you added detail into the silhouette by blending in the tones.

Pixeldrops, good to see you join in! I like the variation in your silhouette shapes, and they even look chinese already!

[jason01]

Good job, thek.

now you need to take some of those characters and match them up in a line up. I have done an example - you don't need to use these - I just grabbed a few. These guys all lok pretty angry, except the mad hatter.

it's good to line them up and then work on them some more. As they say "no man is an island" - you have to see what they look like with the other characters - you see where you need to differentiate them more or what things you have that tie them together.

Once you do this, then you take the basic silhouettes and flesh them out - do more thumbnails of different clothes and other things that are inside the silhouette.


oh yeah - and . . . where's Alice?

[thek]

argh! Can't believe I've left out Alice! I'll add her to the lineups I'm doing. It's amazing how they seem more alive when put next to each other - as if they have purpose.

[jason01]

Check this video out. this is a really good tutorial video for shape and differentiation. He's a concept artist at Avalanche Software - the do video games for Disney

http://beawesome.blogspot.com/2008/04/tutorial-thingy.html

[thek]

Here we go, these are my preferred lineups which I think aren't necessarily the strongest silhouettes, but I think these go well together. Front of my mind for all of these was the King Queen dynamic and I think these affected my choices for the other silhouettes too.

At the bottom as well are some things I tried with bringing life to some of the silhouettes by imagining an directional light from above, with varying degrees of failure. If I squint though, they do seem more 3 dimensional?

That last video you posted was really inspiring Jason, especially the bit where he traced those tear shapes over the girl sitting down. Before he did that I was wondering how he was going to say that was based on repeated shapes!

[jason01]

either one of these line ups work. the top one is more goofy and the bottom one is more scary. that light does add form - I like it - but try adding light from more of an angle (like light from in front of the character, coming from the left . . . instead of directly overhead). also - most of your characters are from front or side view. show them from 3/4 view.

3/4 view gives more of a feel of roundness - it tells about both front and side views.

Now that you have the basic feel for your characters - it wont be much to make them all 3/4 views.

[jason01]

ok - once you get your 3/4 view silhouettes how you like them (1) - then you can add details of clothes and stuff. some people like to do all lines and then add shading and color later, some like to do shading in monochrome (2) and then add details on top of that. either way works. it's up to you. if you work on different layers it'll be easy to fix in photoshop, either way.

[thek]

You make it seem so effortless! Thanks for the feedback, I'm away for the weekend, but I'll be back on this the day after. Really looking forward to this stage, it seems like (more) fun!

[jason01]

follow these links for examples of line ups

http://z.about.com/d/animatedtv/1/7/u/4/cwCharacterLine-up.jpg

http://www.imaginefx.com/02287754331394616381/the-unusual-suspects.html

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/889/598/1600/aidalineup_large.jpg

[comixnut]

... but insanely busy with school. i was meant to post up my king silhouettes (only because i really wanted to hear if Jason thought i had done well with expanding my shapes) but i just had no time to finish them.

I will do my utmost to have it done this weekend.

[comixnut]

Oh and i forgot, thanks so much for all those links Jason they have been really helping with the design and imagination. :)

[jason01]

Just to show you that I'm never satisfied with my own stuff. . . . # 1 is a line up I did a while ago. #2 and #3 are variants that I put together after trying a bunch of variations with the liquify and brush tools in photoshop. I was never really that happy with these guys - I keep trying to push myself.

[jason01]

If you guys are looking for a book to see the process of visual development, these two books by the students at Art Center are good to get.

The Skillful Huntsman
http://www.designstudiopress.com/new_site/book_pages/pics_skillful_huntsman/book_skillful_huntsman.html

this takes you through 3 students' journey and process of developing a single story - under the direction of Scott Robertson

In the future. . . .
http://www.designstudiopress.com/new_site/book_pages/pics_in_the_future/book_in_the_future.html

This book takes you on a general overview of the different skills needed for entertainment design -- and it blows my mind every time I open it.


some other really good books that are in my personal library are:
the art of Star Wars: Episode 1 (that started it all for me - got me into concept design)
the art of Darkwatch
the art and making of Monster House
the art of Kung Fu Panda (hands down one of the most phenominal studies in Character Design I've ever seen)
the art of Treasure Planet
the Disney Villain

for color
the art of Prince of Egypt
the art of the Incredibles

for design in backgrounds
the art of Home on the Range
the art of Lord of the Rings


that's a good start. These are books I go back to time and again - I have tons of other books that I read once and never read again. and some books I have, going to the person's website would have been just as good as getting the book.

[jason01]

Now here's some websites

Because as important as it is to draw - it's equally important to see what others do and be inspired (also, you don't want to do the same thing)

http://www.seegmillerart.com/
http://characterdesign.blogspot.com/
http://avalanchesoftware.blogspot.com/
http://bsschallenge.blogspot.com/
http://massiveblack.com/
http://gotcheeks.blogspot.com/
http://desoluz.blogspot.com/
http://joshuathejames.blogspot.com/
http://shaneprigmore.blogspot.com/
http://www.peterdeseve.com/
http://paperwalker.blogspot.com/
http://www.bugglefug.com/
http://jsbrush.blogspot.com/
http://paullasaine.blogspot.com/
http://waynelo7.blogspot.com/
http://ryandavidjones.blogspot.com/
http://vignalistudio.blogspot.com/
http://creatureartists.blogspot.com/
http://benmauro.blogspot.com/
http://dermotpower.com/
http://ultimateirongiant.com/

other artists who are also good to look at
http://www.clydeaspevig.com/
http://www.kued.org/productions/maynard_dixon/art/paintings.php
http://www.jeremygeddesart.com/
http://www.imscared.com/
http://www.jonfoster.com/
http://lorenhoskins.blogspot.com/

[jason01]

great, robel32. let's see some sketches of it.

[-HAWK-]

Well, I guess to introduce myself first - I'm a college grad who only recently discovered the real scope of the concept art world. I've done alot of costume design and portraiture but I'm committed to getting a better grasp on character design as well as a bit of everything that is concept art. I'm totally psyched that jason01 is mentoring and I can't wait to jump right into this.

So I've been working on these for the last week, half of that time I was following an entirely different theme (crazy theatrical troupe) but I was getting frustrated with it and decided to try something completely different. I sketched for a day or two, playing around with themes and finally came up with "Alice in Space". I could probably keep working on these for another week but I figured I should just submit them how they are now to see if I'm even doing this right.

Concept:
Alice is puttering around the galaxy looking for her inventor parents who are lost in space. She is accompanied by her clever alien cat and she drives her spaceship "The White Rabbit" which was invented by her genius parents before they disappeared.
She runs into numorous crazy characters and many strange alien planets on her journey and in one instance she meets the self-proclaimed "Queen and King of the Universe". The queen and king are out to dominate space and find out "The White Rabbit", Alice's weird "ship", holds the key to power over the universe, bwahahaha! ...*cough*...anyway, I'll probably change it around as it develops but it's not supposed to be too complicated, I just needed a basic idea to start my gears running.

-This was so amazingly fun to do btw.

[jason01]

Looks very 60s spacy-ish

First of all, let me just say - I really dig it. These are a lot of fun. Familiar enough to connect with them and different enough to not say it's a rip off.

That being said, it does look very gris grimly-like. http://www.animationartgallery.com/agrisgrimlyart.html

But even he has more meat on the bones of his characters. Good thick to thin - but a little too thin. Maybe not, though - it could work.

The main thing is - these look mainly like costume variations of basically the same silhouette. explore vastly different silhouettes and if you can't find one you like as much as you did here, go with these.

Also - pick a definitive pose to put these people in. And push the pose. sulky, make it sulky, strong, flash gordon-y - make it really strong, wide stance . . . etc. you only have one silhouette to capture the essence of this character - and what are you going to say about him/her? boring? - just a boring stance. fun and bouncy? make lively and perky.


what ever you end up going with . . make sure it's something that you'd want in your portfolio and something that you have fun doing. If you're serious about concept art . . they do want to see variation and how you think. So keep these sketches - - they want to see your process - your journey on your way to your destination.

[-HAWK-]

Thanks!! This has already been so helpful, the practice I've gotten working on these and your great feedback are priceless. Gris Grimly-wise, I confess I'm a big fan of his but I'll make sure to make it my own too ^^

Since I'd never done this before I spent most of the time making little style decisions and pushing the basic body shapes of the characters but now that I have a feel for the style I like, I think making variations will be much easier. I'll start exploring the variations and poses tonight and tomorrow so I should be able to update these by Saturday at least. Once I get these modified, I think I'll do a real "work in process" post in my sketchbook (starting with the original idea) - that would be interesting ^^

[armetage]

Hi! good work everyone, and welcome hawk! interesting stuff you got going on!
I will update asap but its so much going on here at the moment thats why im pretty slow
Best regards
Robin

[pepps]

Hello all, my name is Giuseppe, i'm 23 an i'm italian. I'm actually studying in sweden, it's my second year here, and i love it! =)
I've been given the chance to join you in this fantastic journey so i'll try to be a fun and interesting companion and inspire you as much as you've inspire me reading through this 3 pages. =)

I'll try to put my-self on track as fast as i can, i actually happened to have already started a sort of project on alice in wonderland, so i read the book 2 times and have already some thoughts about it...

i don't really have a story and clear ideas but i guess those will develope as we go along, so for now every little idea is just a door that could open many possibilities, mostly oriented in a post athomic setting, but not really futuristic, i just like the melting pot =) that and the improbable machines and architechture!. That said there are some points i want to focus on, and will be my goal as for what i want to tell with the story and consequently with the designs. I want it to be: 1- twisted, so things will never be obvious or as one is expecting them to be (for example alice could be a boy), i want it to show: 2- contrast between the wonderworld and the world were alice comes from. In the book part of the madness of this fantastic characters i think is given by the fact that they simply have different ways of percieving what is important, they are not obsessed by time, they are like stuck in a moment, (except the rabit, which is the bidge between the 2 worlds). And i want it to be 3. related to reality, in the sense that the characters are real people you would meet in the street, in their purposes and logics. I also want it to show a mixture of different cultures, mostly because i tend to get inspired quite frequently by quite different things, and i like to include bits of them all in what i do =). Also creating controlled contrasts creates interest and gives more of a twist, wich is goal 1 =)

Now this was before i actually saw Chris Appelhans' work....wich happens to be prerry much on the same idea...and from wich i became very influenced...
now i don't know where to move..i could start from his and push it one step further in some way...or try to take different directions on the same approach...all do something completely different....feedback is welcome xD

also this goals i've set are a starting point, things will change, or maybe not, but i find it very usefull to have a purpose for what i'm doing right from the start, that is characters and stuff will have a certain design according to what is the message they should convey...

as you probably have noticed i tend to talk alot about what i think....if it's not ok i can stop doing that, otherwise i'll continue to share my process and stuff =)

i've collected some images that i somewhat connected to the ideas i have in mind...some ideas i couldn't find but i guess they're quite unrelated as it is, there's no need to add more =p

again, it feels great to be on board, i'll try to write more and comment others stuff tomorrow =)

cheers!

p.s. all types of comments critiques, and whatever is highly wellcome, the more ideas i get the better =)

[pepps]

woah! i did the 100 silhouettes....it took me like 3 hours...and i probably zoomed too much, but at 100% size it was just killing my eyes =)

i tried to very shapes, size, and moodfor the characters and i indeed learnt a ton, especially the fact that you really need to push the design and the shapes as much as possible ...just because otherwise they won´t read from that distance...so it was a good exercise....i hope it shows some progress from the beginning to the end...i sure feel a lot more confident in shape management and in giving the character..a character..xD

next i´ll do some bigger thumbnails for each character!

comments and critiques are very welcome (if you can see the shapes...)

cheers!

[jason01]

good job on the silhouettes. I went through and marked the ones that struck me - usually because of the attitude they displayed. also because of recognizability while being different.

now the next step is to take the silhouettes you like and refine them and try different variations

I took #2 (yours) and blew it up and tried some variations. #3 is a mega-man like character and #4 is a king/queen dou - the queen is an angry little tumor on the king's stomach. When I saw your silhouette - with one arm being so much bigger than the other (the way I saw it) - it looked like a tumor to me.


you can use these or not. it's up to you. but continue to develop and refine and make sure you have all the characters

keep up the good work

[pepps]

ahaha thanks a lot for the quick response and feedback =)...actualy i had thought just of the mega-man like idea but yeah the tumor one is quinte interesting aswell...might borrow the idea =)

i´m not sure if i´ll use these silhouettes, maybe some, but i´ll try to get the characters down as soon as possible
cheers!

[pepps]

hello, i thought i´d give some updates =)

i worked another 3 hours on the silhouettes and got me 12 for each character. I´m trying to work them all together and develope different ideas for each so that i have room for change. I´ll probably add 6-8 more silhouettes for each character and then do variations on the ideas i like, and then refine to have 6 silhouettes for each character....i´m not sure if this will take to long time...but for now it´s my schedule. Is there a time schedule i should follow or some deadline?

if you want to see the progress it´s in my sketchbook

cheers!

[pepps]

ok i´m starting to wrap each character up. For now i got only alice, but i thought i´d post it so i could get some feedback for the next ones =)

i want her to be quite a normal person, so i kept the shapes more or less normal, to give her some contrast with the other guys. My idea for her is that she is a normal girl, quite curious and interested in life and it´s various forms, and enters this wonderland, and travels through it. I´m interested in making it something like a journey, where she evolves and maybe changes her appearance aswell, wich will probably become more like that of the other characters. I had another idea, that she was a sort of hunter, wandering and discovering this place...but i´m losing my interest for that idea, so i included just one hunter thumbnail in the linup.
Looking forward to your feedback!

cheers =)

edit: i didn´t really do variations on this. I didn 50 silhouettes and then chose the ones i liked and refined them. I had in mind what i wanted so that only changes i would have done would have been variations in clothing...think it´s ok like this aswell?

[jason01]

yeah - it's ok - i like #2 - really tall and lanky. and I like #4 - kind of street rat - that's what I see. #5's curvey legs have a certain appeal. but #1 and #3 are too similar to stuff I've seen before. . . although the books on #3 are a nice touch.

Really nice presentation, bt the way. thank you. looks good.

[jason01]

what if your alice grew and shrank - but her clothes didn't? I haven't seen that before. and your lanky tall one made me think of it.

or another idea - what if she grew and shrank in height - but had to maintain the same weight - so tall and lanky and short and fat?

i don't know

[pepps]

yay, thanks for the feedback =)
indeed 2-4-5 are also my favourites, and yeah curvey legs rock =)

i liek your idea for the changes. I intended to keep the strecching that happens in the book and i like the idea of the cloths maybe staying the same. My idea for the changes was that: since the difference between her and the wonder people is that they are machines, by being in the world she would also start changing and become a machine. I wanted to play with the clothes, like the clothes becoming alve or something like that...and i also like your idea...so maybe something in between could be cool..i´ll think about it.

meanwhile i got some rabits =) i had lots of ideas for him, i posted something that sums up the different ideas i had, from cute, to trickster, to does-strange-things-with-ears =) his main role is to bring alice in wonderland, but i´m not sure on how...i´m more incline for the tricky one, but we´ll see =)

again looking forward to your feedback =) cheers!

[jason01]

I was immediately struck by #1, 2, and 6.

what you really need to do now is get 6 silhouettes for each character - like this - and then make a line up of all the characters. see which ones need to stay and which ones need to go (because they're too similar or don't fit the world) - so that's really how you determine which one to pursue. line 'em up next to the other characters in the world.

[pepps]

yeah, you´re right, i´ll try to finish the other 3 in the next couple of days so we can compare them.

Uhm..also i was browsing through feng zhu´s stuff, and i notice that he puts lots of detail in his silhouettes and thumbnails (http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/dvds/fzh01.html). Do you think i should try that too, for a change, or maybe do some quick ones, chose a few and refine them to that level?

[jason01]

oh - yeah - I've seen that video that Feng Zhu did. It's great. if you can get a hold of it and watch it. yeah - he just whips those things out - and they tell him everything he needs to know to go to the next step. In fact. . . yeah - watch the video and sketch whilst you watch and I guaranty it will help you. Um . . if nothing else - it will give you another idea on going about the process - which is always enlightening.

[pepps]

ok! so after some time i finally managed to get lineups for all the characters. Iwent throught feng´s tutorial but after that i started to design the same robots he was designing...just because it was the only robot reference i had in my head. Eventually i got myself some more reference and finished the king and queen (i wanted them to be some kind of half-man, half-robot thing. I also studied the principles of design so i feel more instructed now and more or less know why a design is working or not. still probably some of my designs are not working but i thought i´d rather post everything and get some criics from you, instead of spending some more days on thumbnails, to keep you updated and keep posting at a regular pace.

the concept behind the character developed in this way more or less:

alice: normal girl who enters wonderland driven by her curiosity and will to go forward in life, exploring new things. (wonderland is a sort of weird place, where everyone is a machine (man turned into machine) and noone cares about time, they all live in the moment, as if no future is going to come)

rabit: sort of freak trapped between the two worlds, he is a machine probably, anyway he is a part of the wonderland but still retains some instinct from the outer world..(ie. he is concerned about time)

king and queen: i see them together as a pair. They are heart hunters, wich i think would be some sort of energy or other thing. they call themselves king and queen because they consider themselves to be the best at that job. They are men slowly mutating into robots. Probably from the legs to the head, they are very active, probably the most active characters (the rabit often takes pauses, that´s why he´s always late), as they´re probably trying to escape the mutation and staying humans in wonderland. I´m not sure about their relationship. Another idea is that htey could be owners of a shop selling hearts or working in the field.

The cheshire cat is completely a machine, he walks slowly, really slow. I have many ideas for him, but noone is really good i guess, i just think he should be a person of some importance in the world, like the only light in wonderland...something like that =)

if you think i can work with these i´ll try to make a sheet with all the characters so i can try different lineups!
looking forward to your feedback =)
cheers!

[jason01]

yeah some of those robot shapes look familiar. :) . You're at a good place here. make some line ups. and you'll probably see that you'll have to make an adjustment or two. that's why you do the line up. But good job one these. They're nice.

[pepps]

heh =)
i went in and did some line ups. I tried to include everything in a single file so if you want you can make changes or see all the silhouettes together...i also left a blank row for you =)

lineup A, is the one that mostly fits my topic, i think she and the rabit had a good relationship..maybe a bit too much, the cat is quite on its own, bt his round shape connects well to the king and queen round machine parts, which sets all of them in a machine theme. The king and queen are a duo to me and so i like that both silhouettes are similar. Still you can tell the guy with 4 arms =) but maybe they are too similar..i don't know

B is also interesting...gives more of a mistery feeling to me...a bit gothic maybe...

C is the street rat version, all characters are a bit stupid in their looks, uhm...but i like it in a way, it's less serious than the others i think..=)

uhm...i think the characters fit together in most of the lineups, some changes need to be done i think, but i think as it is they give 3 possible solutions to the story...
i'm curious to hear your thoughts, critics also are very welcome!

cheers =)

[jason01]

ok - you got the things together - but there's not a whole lot of variation

I though the "A" alice was a too traditional and given these other great options I decided not to use her. But it's good to have it there as a benchmark.

- I varied the lineups a little - then took your characters and made one myself. Notice how I changed the sizes - not only are they distinct from each other, but they are distinct and different. the rabbit - oh, smaller - cute - (and I imagine it being a transportation device - she gets on and it hovers and drives places) - the cat - imposing but maybe not too bad - the king/queen (which I melted together - I put one on top of the other, turned the 4 arms into legs and go rid of those other legs - it's a monster now! it's threatening. - and you did it all - I just adjusted the size and put one on the other). of course, you could make the king/queen way bigger and more imposing. - it could be like voltron with people inside and all that.

Even when doing realistic things - push the characters and contrasts between them. I think it looks stronger - what do you think?

[pepps]

wow!! yess it´s really much more effective now, yeah the first rule: push it to the limit ehehe right, i like the robot thing, i wanted something like that, uhm and yeah i also immagined that rabit silhouette as a sort of traveling thing...the round years reminded me of wheels...but i wasn´t thinking at it too seriously. Now that you put it there though it does make sense, he´s her way into wonderland afterall so it makes sense that she rides him ahah.
Uhm...i liked the street rat idea, i have to think a bit on how i can evolve the project from here, your ideas really opened new ways so i´ll think about it and post a new line-up, with a lot of contrast =)

thanks for the feedback!

[-HAWK-]

Sorry for the delay, this is a sheet of revisions I made to my Alice in Space-themed silhouettes. I'm still not sure if I pushed them far enough shape-wise but I worked alot on finding poses I liked for them. The ones in grey were the best of my first set of revisions and the black ones are from the most recent set - I tried to loosen up and add more motion to the second set but I'm not sure if I lost too much structure?

Look forward to your feedback :)

[jason01]

Hawk - I love it! I really do! They have so much appeal. Now I would put them together in a lineup to see how they do together.

if you want to see a great group of pushed shapes - www.creaturebox.com

[-HAWK-]

Here are my lineups, I went back to the silhouettes and cleaned them up first and tried to add more character to each of them too since I thought they were a little lacking (I don't know if it made much of a difference, I've been staring at them way too long ^^), but overall this was really entertaining to do :) It's also helping me understand more about how a strong silhouette can change the entire feel of a story - I'll definitely be working on that more on my own. Thanks for the great link by the way!

Can't wait to hear from you :)

[pepps]

they are all really nice in my opinion. They have a nice feeling to them, there is variation, but still unity, i really like tham a lot, can you share a bit of your workflow with us? =p did you get one silhouette you liked for each character and reworked it to get 6, or are they 6 different ideas? Did you have some ideas in mind when you designed them. I like how they all express different characters, in a very effective way. I can immediately tell who the character is, what he's up to, just by looking at these silhouettes...great job!

[-HAWK-]

thanks pepps! I've never done these before so I didn't really have a set workflow but I just posted a "work in process" in my sketchbook to show how I developed them since it's kinda hard for me to summarize ^^; You can check it out here: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=135843
It shows you about 2/3's to 3/4's of what I did to get to this point.

I love your reference btw, and your silhouettes look beautiful!!

[pepps]

ery interesting, you did a lot of work on the gestures aswell. i basicly just threw shapes here and there trying to find some designs i liked, but you focused more on poses, and it shows, they really give a character to the..ehm...char....yeah...that one =). Uhm very nice, i'll borrow your workflow and try to rework a bit my line ups.

and as far as your lineups i think that, all work as i said, it really depends on what is the relationship between the characters in the story...for example if the king and queen are to be together they might have similar shapes, if alice and the queen are to be enemies they might have opposing shapes...i guess...

i love it anyway, i think it's really inspiring!

keep it up =)

[-HAWK-]

...for example if the king and queen are to be together they might have similar shapes, if alice and the queen are to be enemies they might have opposing shapes...

Thanks! That's a great suggestion :) I guess at this point I should start narrowing in on the exact group dynamic so I can get the best combination, I'll definitely keep that in mind while I work out the final lineup. Thanks again, this thread is awesome!

[pepps]

so i went in and modified a bit things. I tried to push the lineup a bit, i also worked a bit more the relationship between the characters. The queen and the king now have more character i think, they can work together they are different but still they feel part of the same thing i guess. So does the cat, but he´s so massive that it kinda stays on it´s own, and that´s what i want. I wanted him to walk slowly maybe in some kind of wierd way, gliding on the floor, silent like a cat, but still be huge, and a machine...i like him now =)
Alice and the rabit stayed the same, but have a bit more of a relationship in this lineup as they don´t really with with the others, this might be a problem for the rabit, so i might rework him a bit. I want him to walk on his ears, marching actually, like they do at the olympic games...the reason for this is that i want to stress the fact that he moves a lot, but still goes slow...i immagine him standing near the cat, both going a the same slow speed, but the rabit moving like he´s trying to win a 100m race, and the cat almost immovable...=)
i´ll keep refining a bit, meanwhile any critic or feedback is more than welcome =)
cheers!

[jason01]

first off - good size differentiation. now . . here's my constructive feedback - all your characters are looking very similar. That's fine for real life - but not very interesting for movies or games or whatever. all your shapes are a triangle and a circle - not that there's anything wrong with that - but they're just too close together. The queen doesn't look feminine - not that she needs to. both the queen and the king look like they are derivitives of the cat. the cat doesn't really look designed - just a big lump with stuff coming out. try to get a major shape and do something interesting with pipes coming out - also - do it at 3/4 view - it gives a sense of volume.

you can have repeating shapes throughout all the characters - but you need more differentiation.

[jason01]

sorry - I didn't see you posted - you guys were responding to each other - which is great - I just wasn't looking for it. I'll pay more attention.

now . . . . I like #1,3, and 4. #s 1 and 4 as they are, but #3 - I think if you're going to make the queen physically dominant she should dominate in everyway. that's the king cowering behind her. on 3 - I love alice. the oversized shirt is adorable.

so now you just need to decide which one you want to go with - the outgoing adventure family (4), the defenders of the universe (1) or the queen domination (3) - which ever fits your story - go with it.

[pepps]

you´re right, i´m a bit disappointed i come to see things only after you point them out, but i guess that´s also why you´re the mentor and i´m the mentee. =)
Now i also see some ways i can enhance the characters in their relationship, working with the shapes and stuff...Uhm..i guess i was too stuck with the shapes i had found and feared to loose the character i had in mind by changing them...but that´s really as stupid as it sounds =)
uhm.. About the cat, yeah....i thought it actually had some character...but compared to yours it just looks like a bunch of scribbles...
Anyway thanks for the feedback, i´ll try to make good use of it =)

cheers!

and -HAWK- i also love te oversized shirt xD

[-HAWK-]

Thanks for the help! ^^ I was having such a hard time narrowing these down but after bouncing between these 3 for awhile I think I've come up with a final choice. I really had to think ahead to where I wanted to take them. One of my favorite ideas for backgrounds was to give an ode to Alice shrinking and growing by having her visit planets with huge oversized plants, animals etc. and planets with miniaturized plants, animals, etc. so it would just "appear" that she shrunk or grew. So taking this in mind I tried to imagine how each group would look in this kind of situation...

#4: I love how cute they look together, they have a pleasant dynamic for me and I think the colors could be very bold but I don't think the backgrounds would have as much impact as I'd like them to have. I also feel like the plot would have to be shallower than I'd like.

#3: I'm fond of Alice's oversized shirt too ^^ but having the obviously dominant queen plot is feeling a little too obvious for me. I also think it could end up a bit too predictable. The backgrounds would end up slightly too comedic I think.

#1: I really feel like this set will work the best with the overall look and feel that I'd like to pursue, the pocketwatch inspired ship is also my favorite of the ships :) I believe that this group would compliment the background ideas the best, the color choices could be more diverse and I feel like I could more easily add other characters to this set that could have alot of visual interest.

So after all that blabbering it looks like I'm going with #1 :)

[jason01]

HAWK - great. I love the Gulliver's Travels idea. now the next step is to decide how those characters are going to look. - you've got the first step down - now what are their clothes and faces . . . here's how one professional did this next step - notice the exploration even on this seemingly given and boring project. He gives it his best. - don't do the turn arounds yet - also - don't color them yet.

go here . .

http://bp0.blogger.com/_2Gmp5zzO_jg/R8iNRgTgCuI/AAAAAAAAAP4/qBt6gvBrVDU/s1600-h/Helicopter-Pilot-JtJ-2006.jpg


although - you could do a whole book and/or animation with the characters as they are right now. . . so keep these. but take the next step and we'll go from there.

[-HAWK-]

Midterms are over so I finally get to post these ^^

WHITE RABBIT/SPACESHIP UPDATE
I saw that this week's Industrial Design of the Week was Vehicle Interiors and thought it was too good an opportunity to pass up even though I was already working on Alice. So I'm putting her on hold this week to work on the ship.

ALICE UPDATE
Face Variations - I've always gone with the first face that popped into my head so I thought it would be good practice to instead use my original as a base and see if I could come up with something more interesting by changing it around. The variations aren't too extreme but I think I found a few nice combinations.
Costumes - I figured I'd choose one of these to create variations from. Right now I'm leaning towards the jumper shorts look, especially in #1 and #6 - I like how they remind me of the classic alice apron ^^

Anyway, I thought I'd just give you something to look over while I work on the ship this week - As always, I look forward to hearing from you :)

[jason01]

these are great. the controls on the spaceship - a little rough for your style - and the exhaust pipe seemed off center - but i like where it's headed.

the faces - too similar - you need to push it - try drastically different eyes and mouths and noses and relationships of those - you may find one better than you have - maybe not. but it will be educational and it will make for a stronger portfolio piece.

the full body - the helmet looks not like a helmet - just use one line. I've put stars by the ones I like a lot. the shorts just look weird to me. I don't know. I like the full suit or the dress or long shirt or what ever that is. it's very 60s, though - and I like it. I took the liberty of making a few changes - #8 is you #10 with #11's goggles - #9 is you 10s body - with the suit turned to skirt- which I think works nicely. and # 11 is a classic 60's number.

the goggles/glasses add an adventurous flare.

for the most part - these are really amazing.

[pepps]

hey, they´re really looking good, i liked number 9 a lot,, i think that in general the short take a way some of the female feeling...while the skirt and the suit add that flavour. at the beginning i didn´t understant she had a helmet...so i guess one line works better for that purpose =).
but they look very nice, and very professional!!

on my side i´m having lots of problems (wich is good) getting the silhouettes together...i think i missed the point in the first step, and i just went for shapes...now i find it hard to change the shapes (differenciate them, one char from the other) because i loose the character and not having a strong idea of the character i just end up designing it again. I do have ideas on how i want the character to be in the story, but i didn´t really develope those in the first step, so i feel like i should do these silhouettes again for some characters (i already did a few pages for the queen, but hadn´t figured out what to look for yet).
I tried to then work with all the characters together, tryingt to mold the shapes so that they would be different, and it gives me a good overall undestanding on the relationship so i can see how similar or different they are right away. While doing this i realized that i didn´t have many ideas to develope the shapes without loosing the character...
anyway here´s an image to show at what point i´ve got, only alice remained unchanged, i think she works like this, i also like the king at the moment, quite a lot, and the cat, i like the idea but needs some tweaks. I think their shapes work together aswell they are quite different from each other. I tried to keep them all the same size so i could compare the shapes without size misleading me.
That said i have no ideas for the rabit or the queen shape wise, so i guess i need to work on the more. do some pages of thumbs again and try to solve the problems i have at the moment =)
any suggestions welcome!

cheers

[jason01]

pepps - I really like the direction you're going with the cat. kind of reminds me of Howl's moving castle.

the king is a strong shape . . but how do you show emotion or reactions or anything?

the best way to help you with your character designs - is to write down the character's part in the story. is the character a very small part? a big part? the bigger the part, the more it should be able to show expressions. Look at the iron giant. even tho it was a huge giant robot, it was still able to show emotion - by the eyes and the way it moved it's arms and head.

is the queen a horrible dictator? someone you need to fear? a one dimentional character - the more dimentions the character has - the more we need to see the eyes and mouth.

as you define who the character is in words and what part they play in the story - it will kind of design itself. You just need to figure out who the character is.

[Asatira]

Just posting to say I've gone through the thread and I'm enjoying seeing how everyone's projects are progressing. And thanks for putting up so many resource links, Jason.

[-HAWK-]

*sigh* After working on this ship all week, hacking away and fixing and refixing the interior panel to death I decided to take it back down to the basics and just try and figure out what the main control unit would look like/what general shape would work best (I'll add the extra controls back in when I have this figured out)...I'm really floundering with this one so the sketches are really random/not too inspired but hopefully you can head me off in the right direction so I can start working on a good set of focused variations.

I did work on a turn around of the chair design as well as a set of control sketches but I thought I should clean up and post these first so I could start being productive again. Oh, and as for alice I'm going to make a few variations of the modified #8 and #9.

-I apologize for the serious lack of creativity...I need sleep...

[pepps]

uhm...i actually htink you have explored quite a number of possible solutions, i´m talking not only about design, but also the way the ship should be "driven" by the pilot. I think they all have a simple, old fashioned kind of feel, wich i think suits perfectly the style. i don´t like 10, maybe cause it looks too sharp, and it´s also maybe too technologically advanced. I really like nr 2, maybe if they where of 3 differen sizes (maybe they are already, even if i think it´s only becase of perspective) it would probably look better though. I also like 3...maybe cause it looks like a tv, and it feels pretty uncommon to have a tv there, so it adds a nice touch, ..to me at least it feels cool =) I don´t really like the joystick idea, it doesn´t feel too characteristic, not compared to the other ideas, wich i think are really great. Number 9 for example if i understand it correctly (i see it sunk into the command panel) looks really new as a concept, but not technologically advanced, maybe it would be hard to use but still, it´s a very interesting concept to me. i like 8 a 5 for the same reason as 3, they are unexpected but still make sense, and the moped handles are really very old fashioned as a driving device in a space ship i gues....uhmm
hope it helps in some way.

i´m also alive and working but i´m having a hard time understanding my characters without a story, so i´m trying some story ideas, some character ideas, some silhouettes, when i have a strong lineup ready i´ll update it, or do you want me to post some prgresses meanwhile?

HAWK i think your presentations look always very nice, your lines are clean and the concept is clear. do you ink with a tablet, or do you use paths?, for this ship for example (i imagine u used just the tablet for the others) and do you use ps/painter, or inkscaped for inking? (clear lines are something i´m strugling with, they seem to take a lot of time to get them right.., thanks =)

cheers!

[jason01]

hawk - good job - this is some good exploration. if you're going for clean, 7 is the way to go - most of them I think are too simple - they can be a flat panel - but when we look up close - they could be broken up into color section - a large touch screen - how 60s future is that?!

about your exhaust pipe - the circle in the inside is too high - and too much of a circle - it's continuing that elipse made by the things on the the outside. for screens and things - I adjusted #9 - I don't if it's better - but it is busy. I like the rabbit ears of #8. doesn't have to be a steering wheel - could be a human interfacing device that talks to her. I don't know. you could get rid of it all and just be super clean with touch panels and maybe put up desplays, projected screens, holograms.

I like the detail circumventing the craft ijn #8 and #10. you could also go clean with #3 - I like the transition between craft and exhaust pipe in #2. it shows design - thought - you didn't just shove a pipe in - you had a place where it's been manufactured, fitted, and ready for space travel.

why is there a big seat and a little seat? or am I seeing that wrong.

anyway - good work - keep it up

[-HAWK-]

thanks for the awesome critiques guys ^^ So after checking out what you both said and looking over the ships again I admit I'm still not attached to any of the ideas. Going back to my original concept I wanted to make the ship kinda like KIT, so it could drive itself and interact with the passenger rather than just be driven (probably as the voice of reason in the story) so I tried exploring the talking ship idea more and I did a couple of sketches. What do you think? Better? Worse? I'll keep working on this but I think I'd like to follow this concept further and make a page of variations on this idea.

I think I could play with "expressions" in the energy line thing too.

jason01
-The back seat is for the cheshire ^^
pepps
-I do everything in photoshop with a tablet and I usually leave everything really sketchy but I'm trying to make an extreme effort to clean up these assignments since I wanted them to be more presentable and clear. As for my technique in doing that, I'm just improvising as I go ;)
-I'd love to see some of your progress, even if you just post it in your sketchbook and link it back here :) Thanks again for the great critique!

[jason01]

I like the sound wave things, it's a great idea. and between the rabbit ears - just explore what that will look like. One more thing - the exhaust pipe is too much of a circle. it would be more of an elipse. take something circular (a pencil with some rubberbands on it, a cup, the backend of a highlighter) and hold it in front of you at that angle. I think that will help you with the elipses - showing you what it would look like.

your other elipses are great - except for that line (is that a shadow?) under the belt of the ship. it doesn't help the form. it flattens it.

[comixnut]

Thanks Jason for allowing me to come back and rejoin you guys in this awesome journey. What you guys have been coming up with is just great and i have a lot of work to do to catch up.

So based on the little story i came up with previously (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1880918&postcount=41) i tried to do 100 for the white rabbit. Tried because i came up well short, doing just over half.

The silhouettes change from the idea that the white rabbit could be the queen's messenger/herald/apprehender kinda thing or the train that would normally pick up people from all over the galaxy to go to this macabre carnival.

so there are a few train ideas and there a few characters (always a robot though).

I like a few of them so if they are all over the place i can narrow it down to a few choices.

[jason01]

comixnut -
good to have you back. it's great to see that you worked up a bunch of silhouettes.

the ones that stood out to me were 22, 23 (it so fun - but if this whole thing is macabre is this comic relief? does it need to be more serious? what's the character's role in the story and what do you want to symbolize? and is your audience kids? or adults? all things to consider.), and 30. #10 is interesting - a giant hand that grabs people and pulls them into another place. scary. I suppose it could be done in a funny way. and, actually 46 is really sweet. Great juxtoposition of big body and arms and small legs. also 46 has a nice repetition of the circular theme. but what you really need to do is put them next to your other characters.

it's like drawing a face - you pick one point of reference (an eye or the nose) and you measure everything else against that. That one thing staying constant and unmoving (for the most part). so - you pick which character you really like and you design the rest of the characters to compliment that character.

[comixnut]

dude i wish i had you for my exploratory design subject. You give a really good insight into the design process of an artist's way of thinking with every answer you give. Plus constructive criticism is highly underrated i say. You are precise with you criticism and obviously take time looking over these things. Just thought i'd let you know that it's appreciated. :)

Plus, i swear, you just floored me with the hand, #10. I could not believe you got that. i could swear you would go wtf at that one! LOL I certainly did and i knew what i was drawing. However after reading your comment, my g/f (who is a teacher and also thinks your answers rock) said that would certainly be interesting, if on the other side of the portal is a rabbit pulling someone out of a hat. The change of roles i think would be cool. :)

Something hit me when i was reading your comment - my story IS dark. I seriously had never noticed it. I mean, i know it was not a comedy ( and i guess i could do black comedy) it just for some reason, it just did not hit me until then. Isn't that funny? i don't know why but i think i am going to spend sometime thinking as to why and how that happened.

Which brings me back to, well i don't really know what role he was playing, which could explain why after a while i just stopped being able to think of variations (that and practice). All i knew is that he either had to be a train conductor robot or the train itself with some sentience, in both cases him just not being quite all there.

lots to think about and play with. In the meantime i will start some silhouettes for the remaining characters i have not tackled yet.

[jason01]

thanks.

that rabbit pulling people out of a hat idea is really entertaining imagery.

as far as being dark - you have a lot of fun elements - which makes it perfect for a tim burton-type beetlejuice/nightmare before christmas type project.

keep it up.

[comixnut]

still here and plotting along! finished my 100 for the cheshire cat (holy cow, i have never drawn so many little drawings in one page). Really late so post it tomorrow!

[comixnut]

sorry for taking longer, 'tomorrow' ended up being a day that i had to build a wardrobe and two bookshelves that really took it out of me! But least now i am finally feeling like we have moved into our new place.

Anyway...

This one really threw me because i had very little idea about the cheshire cat as a character, since i have never read the book. So i did a little research and in my mind i had a few words that were always at the front: philosopher and barrel (because my favourite story of philosophy has always been that of Diogenes and Alexander the Great), joker, cat, cheese (look it up :D ). However i also played with the idea of making him something that could travel on rails that criss-cross the amusement park, giving him the ability to appear and disappear almost anywhere.

[jason01]

good job on the 100. some are a bit literal - but that's good that you put 'em down.

the ones that struck me are 6, 21, 26, 42,45,48,71,73,77,79, 86, and 98 - my favorites being 6, 71, 86 - and if you really need wheels - 79

now you got me curious about the barrel and cheese - I'm going to look that up. keep it up

[-HAWK-]

Looks like I'll finally be posting Alice assignments again now that I've recovered my hard drive. I've feel like I've been chomping at the bit waiting to get it up and running again so don't be surprised if I swamp you all with art this weekend ^^

[-HAWK-]

BTW comixnut, I glad to see another mentee has come back! It's more fun to have more people in the class and it creates a great dialogue :) I look forward to seeing where you take your project, it sounds intriguing ^^

[jason01]

Hawk - glad to see you're back. and . . . . bring it on.

that's a really great page of expressions. clean it up (tighter line work) and you've got something

http://l.yimg.com/img.movies.yahoo.com/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/dreamworks_skg/over_the_hedge/design_hammy.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1ByDhGNBGM8/Rgas083rY8I/AAAAAAAAACo/-3DNHH96-eU/s400/Sammi+Expressions+1small.jpg

http://static.highend3d.com/tutorialimages/300/exfacesheet.jpg

[-HAWK-]

I'll be posting the revised costumes for Alice as well as the costume sheets for the Queen and King later tonight after I finish some homework. But while I'm doing that I'd love to get your opinion on some thumbnails I just did for this weeks CHOW "Female Sith Lord"
1 - Bar Scene, my current favorite.
2 - Desert planet
3 - Underwater mines, riding one of those deep sea monster fish from the episode 1? movie.

[jason01]

so - these are some pretty varied ideas. you should run through a bunch of thumbnails on each theme. I know - this is just a quick weekly theme. but it doesn't take much.

I like that you are bold and aren't affraid to put yourself out there. These quick thumbs communicate the idea - and more than just stick figures. good job. it could be more clean and readable - I know you can do it - that's what you're all about.

for #1 - I like the values and I can tell what's going on (for the most part. . . is she using her powers to push something?). The sith is pretty much in the middle and she's looking off - with nothing important behind her - I feel she should be moved over to the left - gives us more room to follow her gaze and move around the picture. I like the guy that's all dark and partially off the frame - it makes him insignificant. wow - in 1a I spelled cantina "canteena" - good job, me.

the profile view is ok - maybe it could be a little more dynamic with her 3/4 view facing us - maybe the guy on the right is in the foreground and taking up more real estate.

in 1b I have her making the glass float (using her powers - that's how we know she's a sith - looks evil and can make things float, right?)

in 1c I have her holding the glass, but under the table she's floating her lightsaber up to her hand - she's about to kill some people

actually, I take it back - I like your profile view. we're able to see her posture and I love the hand and the crossed legs.

with 2 - I like how you have the sith on the left side - but it seemed a bit heavy - and like you were trying to avoid overlapping. overlapping is one way of showing distance - it's your friend - it also make it look like it wasn't all placed by an artist - if everything overlaps we can get more sucked into the image and look at the story without being distracted by things avoiding each other. - I threw some dead bodies down, and some distruction in the background for 2a

3 - I like the "s" curve composition. and you break up these organic lines with the vertical ones. nice. these would feel even more dimensional if the closest things to us were also the darkest. I know we're underwater - but we need to cheat this one a bit. we're going to have the darkest darks and the lightest lights close to us and it's going to fade off to a murky midtone or so in the distance. unless you want to go super deep sea and it's all black except where the light from your camera is - I don't know that you want her riding that far down - who's she terrorizing then?

3b - I thought maybe you'd want to have her coming toward you - this would be scarier, would it not?

these are just thoughts I have. I do not mean to be harsh, I'm just trying to help. you are amazing and you are getting better. I can tell even with these. keep up the good work. and thank you for asking me.

[-HAWK-]

Not harsh at all! Thanks! ^^
I think the #1 thumb suits my idea of the character the most but all those notes are great! I'll practice making more thumbs from now on since it's new for me but it's amazing how you really can make the composition more dynamic with the suggestions you made. And now that I think about it, I avoid overlapping all the time so I'll have to work on that.

-I love #3 when it's coming at you...creepy ;)

*I played around with the #1 sketch a bit more before I saw your post so I'll be revamping it, but here it is a little more fleshed out, though I think I lost her gesture a bit. I'll probably keep the glass in her hand and have her using her powers under the table like you suggested since it seems appropriate for the character to be killing but still not letting it interrupt her drink ;)

[-HAWK-]

Here's some more Alice, I'll post the King and Queen tomorrow...I need to sleep...

[jason01]

your lady sith's looking nice. with the wider frame, she's good in the middle.

as for alice.
#1 - there's something really simple and beautiful about this. the torso is clean and really strong. I also want to see a line or shape on the gloves and boots.

#2 - I love the line continuing on the leg. the shape on the glove gives variety and I want to see that repeated on the boots.

#3 - the skirt - not as strong as the previous ones - but the shape on the boots is good

#4 - the goggles are great. seem a little unnecissary with the helmet and the band with the one circle is just such a nice shape i'd hate to lose it. the costume is nice

#5 the design on the gloves - this is great! repeat it on the boots and you got something

#6 - those two lines are nice on the skirt - repeat it on the gloves and boots and it'd be stronger than the squares, I think. I'm not sure how I feel about the lines on the wings - could be amazing - try the lines on the gloves and boots, too - something might be overkill - wont know until you try it.


good job. keep it up.

[-HAWK-]

Got distracted by CHOW and forgot to post this, here ya go :)

- Thanks for the great crit btw! ^^ I'll work on her a bit more, I think if I have a better idea of the Queen's design it should help me with the details on Alice's costume as well so have at it ;) (I'm liking the legs on #10 right now)

[jason01]

Hawk - I want you to tell me what you like about these costumes. tell me about the character how these costumes/pose/expression help express her. Remember - we see the character - it's made up of what we do - which comes from what we think. so give me some background on the character and what she's like. talk about the costumes in terms of contrast, flow, interest, idea, concept, leading the eye, stopping the eye, speed, repetition, etc. tell me what ones work and what ones don't in your opinion. A lot of times it helps just to verbilize what you're looking at. go through each one. I'll give you a critique after you present it yourself. This realy helps. A lot of times I'll see stuff when I'm talking about pieces.

these look good - I'm looking forward to your explanation.

[-HAWK-]

Queen Impressions:
-Genuinely confused when things aren't going her way, a little clueless. It's not so much that she wants something because she selfish but because she just assumes she can have (or already "owns") whatever she wants.
-Kindof a mix between Gracie Allen - comedically clueless, Audrey Hepburn - fashionable and sophisticated, and Mrs. Cleaver - Kindof a weird mother in the sense that she believes she is in charge of everything...random but I'll try to find a better example.
-Believes that she is in charge of the universe, I guess nobody else got the memo ;)
-So she looks down on everyone and assumes she is the leader but isn't actively dominating I guess, does that work? I really didn't want her to be the cliche "off with everybodies heads" dominator queen, more of a "why won't this thing stop talking, make it go away" perplexed and delusional queen. Maybe she's from another planet where they all have social delusions ;)

The pose: I think the idea of her looking down shows her superiority. The hand is on the hip, ready to inspect everyone else and pass judgment - it also reminds me of a mother reprimanding her child or waiting to hear what mischief they got into. The legs are floating but she's still pulling one in like she doesn't want to touch something "lower" than her. The idea of her floating also works with the fact that though she meddles in everyone else's business but she isn't actively involving herself in it. She's not "grounded". Essentially she wants (believes it's her duty) to tell everyone what to do but she shies away from involving herself with those lower than her and things that are foreign to her.

Looking at the Costume sheet, I think I could make her narrow her eyes a bit to make it more obvious that she's looking down, furrow her brows and purse a lips a bit to show a bit of confusion or adorable frustration?. I want her to look a little more like the "girl you could never get", the untouchable beautiful girl in school. I'm having a hard time communicating her personality through the outfit but I'll try to work out my first impressions one by one and see what I come up with...:

#1- the "heart" design on the bodice was my first idea for her, it's a 60's shape and I think it's feminine. The high neck adds a bit of sophistication. I added the design on the legs to emphasize the hips as well as slim them (the line down the middle breaks the hip up but the shapes created on the outside would also widen them) I think the lines on the gloves and boots add "spaceyness" but might be too busy.

#2 - to me this one is uber feminine, and seems to make her a little younger. Maybe too young though. I was hinting at the heart shape again with the design on the top of the hip, and in the gloves and boots. I think she looks too nice...

#3 - the crossing v-neck is a little too sexy for her now that I think about it, she should be beautiful but not so inviting. The line on the legs is drawing my eye in a weird way, I'm not liking them so much. (they kindof remind me of the lines on some animal's legs)

#4 - I like the way her hair thing draws the eye in this one, the repeated design on the neck seems to frame her face in a nice way...I like that the design is repeated on the hips but I don't know if it was the best way to do it. Overall It seems almost right but I don't know...the legs are looking to clunky and heavy - they take away from the face.

#5 - The simple headband looks nice, young but sophisticated. This is only a slight variation from the #1 but I think the simplifications work a little better. I still like the heart bodice but I'm not sure if it fits the character as well as the clean turtleneck like in #4, it does allow the eye to wander more on the figure but I like the idea of focusing on the face.

#6 - This one gives off a very "ready for adventure" vibe, I like it as a design but I don't think it really fits the character or story line. I like the lines on the boots though.

#7 - I like the repeated design on the gloves on this one, the hair thing looks ok too but I think the jumper design on the top and hips is making her look too young and motherly (like an apron), I really think the design on the gloves and in the hair have some possibilities though...

#8 - Super simple. I think she looks like part of a group, like one of many that would have a similar design. It's nice and clean but I want her to look more individual. The lines on the boots remind me too much of mallards...

# 9 - Based on a dress I own ;) I think it's cool how the hair piece is wrapping around, combined with the neck design it's framing her face but allowing your eye to take it all in. I looks a little "mechanic"-y though, the costume combined with the pose comes across as a "ok I'm here, what needs fixing" It's not really coming off as a main character but I think it allows the best eye movement of all of them.

#10 - I really liked the leg design but after working out her character I think it would suit a more dominating personality. Likewise the zip-up neck, while sophisticated, seems way too sexy for her character. It's just too much on the whole.

#11 - I was watching the tron trailer, forgive me ;) It kindof works but the circles on the leg bring the eye in at a weird point, my eye locks into the hips and I don't like that. I'm not sure what I feel about the hair and neck. I don't know, this one is interesting but I can't pin down what it makes me feel - maybe that's the problem...

After all this...I'm still liking the turtleneck idea - it's more "untouchable", maybe the repeated designs on the gloves and hair of #7...hmm...

Sorry if that description was spastic, I was having a hard time sorting my thoughts, I don't know if the dynamic will really even work but those were my first thoughts. I think she would still be powerful in the sense that she has huge resources at her disposal but she would just use them in bizarre ways - like the queen in the actual book.

[jason01]

that is some great thinking. see how it helps to vocalize (or write down) your character and talk through your ideas? you have a lot of good critiques on your work - as for detail and ideas - I suggest you check out Sean Galloway's work - http://gotcheeks.blogspot.com/ - I think it will help. Not everything he does is gold - but most of it is pretty dang phenomenal.

I liked your "mallard" comment - and agree.

as far as "untouchable" - when I think "untouchable beauty" like you're saying here - I don't think "skanky" - showing too much but alluring, certainly. and that can be achieved in so many ways other than showing skin. - in the end - it's your call. but the "untouchable" quality (to me) is more of nose up, aloof expression - not making eye contact. maybe half-closed eye-lids or all closed - give it a shot, I don't know.

the only think I would say to change about the basic figure is the right foot. if on the ground this would be pigeon toed and shy - but in the sky she's got a broken foot. it needs to go the other direction. - just try it yourself and see how it feels. . . unless you have a broken foot (in which case, I'd feel terrible) - and you'd need to get some reference - or I'll do a sketch for you.

so - good job. now fix that foot and come up with a few more variations - ones that fit - and post those up.

I'm excited to see what you put up next.

[-HAWK-]

thanks! seriously, that was really helpful :)
So I went ahead and did 5 more, I'm still working out the feet/hand/face but I think it's looking a little better. These were much more fun to do so hopefully that means they're stronger ;) I'm also hoping that when I wake up tomorrow I'll like them as much as I do now, we'll see...

Thanks for the link, it was definitely inspiring - I love his work! :)

[jason01]

Hawk,

nice. these each have consistent, repeated, ideas throughout. nice work. you got this.

one thing - I was looking at the queen and noticed her left thigh was looking saggy (this also gives you a great chance to give a subtle heart shape to her thighs) - also didn't have much thumb area on the right hand, and the right knee seemed to go in instead of out. as you see, the body is all facing one direction. and since that is the case, we'd see less of the side of the right leg and more of the side of the left.

hope this helps - I really dig your style, just needs a little refining (think of the bones inside the body - you're doing a good job of playing straight against curved lines - balance and give and take and all that - but that right forearm was getting a little wonky - like you used the liquify tool for the legs and didn't notice the arm got affected).

now is the perfect time to move on and do the other characters. you'll do the overall refining when you get them lined up and see what costumes work with each other.

looking forward to you next post. keep up the good work.

[-HAWK-]

girls are soooo much easier...Lacking all the extra presentation since I wanted to post these before I went to sleep.

Guys are annoyingly hard to costume...

[-HAWK-]

Mini update: I've decided to make the White Rabbit ship a space taxi. The #10 exterior works nice with this idea for me so I'll start working on the interior again if you agree.
I think I'll have it's AI personality be a little more worried like the book's character. Worried about being too far from base when Alice starts exploring and constantly mentioning time (it is a taxi afterall), possibly a bit like C-3PO. I wanted to have a clock of some sort be a prominent feature, and I think this idea works with that.

Other than that, thanks a ton for the Queen critique! ^^ I'll trim those thighs a bit, make the other adjustments and post an updated version when I get through with the rest of the costumes :)

[jason01]

Great. The king looks pretty good - but there are some wonky things about him. His thighs look kinda dried out, his feet look a little cloggish and small, and his shoulder/torso connection looks weird. But I love the torso and the head (the top of the head/hair is odd, though). Remember for character design you need to consider 3 major things

1 - movement (this thing is going to be animated and has to be able to move)
2 - volume (it is going to be taking up 3 dimentional space (even if it's a 2d drawing - unless it's "little Jackie Paper" from Puff the Magic Dragon)
3 - weight - your character meets gravity.

you're doing pretty good on these things - but i somethings (like the hair) - I don't know how it moves - is it springing from the side of the head or the back of the head?

give it another shot - and then I'll do an overlay if you want - also talk through your pieces like you did with the queen. that was really nice.

[-HAWK-]

Better? Did I lose too much of the gesture? The shape doesn't feel as strong...

I'll work on his description and the individual costume impressions and update this post with it asap ^^

[jason01]

The feet do look better, you still maintain the pose.


be warned - um - this next part may be kind of harsh. don't take it personally - overall your character designs are amazing. and this guy has a good feel to him, but there are still some things that are off. and you said you have problems with drawing guys, so here are some tips . . and questions.

just so you know - I tried fixing the feet and spent like 20 minutes on it - before saying - augh - I can't get this guy to look straight without destroying this pose.

I guess the real question would be - who it the king? if he's effeminate - or does ballet then that pose works. guys normally don't do 90 degree angles (or more - as is this case) with their feet. that's very girly.

the hand is still small and the shoulder/upper arm is too tiny to be functional. not that it really matters, but you made the torso so muscular that it looks weird having the shoulder be just bone.

oh yeah - and does he have a shirt on? why can I see his washboard stomach? and is that a belly button? and if he's in space why does he have no shirt?

for some sweet poses - check out tim mcburnie -
http://www.bugglefug.com/gallery/new

[-HAWK-]

*tried to post this earlier, around 5, but my computer was freaking out :(

Ok, so after struggling endless hours on just this guys legs, I went back to the Sean Galloway link you gave me to see if I could get a better simplification on the overall look. I kept thinking to myself how much easier girls were to draw and I realized that's because I had been drawing them for so long that I knew how to simplify the form into basic curves. What was making this hard was that because I don't draw the male form all that often, I hadn't found a way to simplify it. So I felt like I had to add all these realistic curves to make it recognizable as a man - Unfortunately the realistic curves I'm familiar with are all from girls so I was fighting that.

So along with rethinking the character's personality, I decided to modify the pose to give it a more "at the ready" appearance. I almost died laughing when you mentioned the ballet pose, all I could think about was the whole story as this ridiculous epic space ballet...;) And he's not shirtless, lol, I was just keeping muscles sketched in since I didn't know how I wanted to simplify them and I was still trying to figure out the turn of his body :) I'm still figuring out how I want his hair to work too...

As for personality I think he should appear slightly condescending/suspicious (to match the queen's aloofness), he's militaty-esque, and ready to shoot anything that's gives the queen the slightest annoyance (to please her and because he's just wants to shoot things) though to match the tone of the story it's probably just a freeze ray ;) He can be outwitted, which saves Alice from being shot multiple times, but remains like a suspicious child towards that person until he is distracted by something else he thinks he should shoot - At this point forgetting all past suspicions. So he should give off the general feel of the flash gordon type hero with an anti-hero twist I guess...Does that make sense?...I think I've been drawing legs for too long...

Anyway, I tried to simplify his leg shape to fit the style better as well as give a more appropriate pose, look forward to hearing from you ^^

[jason01]

WOW!!!! that's awesome!

you're right about being used to drawing things - I'm the same way with girls - I mostly draw guys.

now just go back to your costumes. yeah. can't wait.

let me just say one more time . . . .Wow! the legs are a little straight, a little - you could bring back a little of the angles of before bring in some assymetry (add interest) - but it looks really good.

you'll notice the pectoral muscle is attached to the shoulder - it moves with it. maybe it would help to see a muscle chart - look up reference (I was about to suggest rubbing on some muscle bound guy - but that could be awkward - and maybe not as effective as looking at a chart of muscles). and since he has a shirt on - maybe indicate the bottom of the pecs by a crease or fold in the fabric.

[-HAWK-]

Thanks for the encouragement! It inspired me to go back and tackle this other monster (the ship) so I thought I'd post the most recent sketches for you to check out while I cleanup and recostume the king...Didn't clean these up as much as I could have and the perspective's probably still all wonky but I'm posting them anyway since I'm exhausted. I'm still not sure what the exposed "brain" of the machine would look like so that one's just a glass cover right now but I'll work on that. I hope everything's readable enough for you to look over, I didn't want to post the file too big.

Looking these over again, I think the touchscreen one would work the best as a taxi (a more sensible functional design that could be duplicated) and it would compliment the costumes of the other characters the best. I guess if I wanted too I could still incorporate the soundwave idea onto the screen since it could be a versatile interactive AI system...

[jason01]

all these have a nice, coherent feel to them. My vote is for the exposed sound waves - really gives a good visual to animate. . . . although they did just do something like that on Igor . . . . hmm. - if you want to give it a personality - you need something very visual - like the sound waves or give it a face - look at Rosie on the Jetsons (the robot maid - wasn't that her name?) - she still has facial expressions and body language. - your "touch screen" kind of has a face - the things on the side look like eyes - throw a mouth in there too on the inside area with all the dots and you've got yourself a character.

[-HAWK-]

I've been hard at work on the ship variations, I'm still cleaning them up but I should be able to post it by Monday. I figured I was having a hard time with the interior design details because of the exterior's simplicity so I've been doing some exploration sketches and I think it's headed in a better direction. Hopefully I can nail this design down soon, I'm really psyched to start throwing colors on all these characters ;)

[-HAWK-]

So here it is finally! Sorry it took so long...I went through pages of variations before I got to this one. I really haven't done much (aka any at all) vehicle design before so I was leaning towards simple at first but after doing some more research and looking at the design in comparison to the other characters I decided to push myself further. I tried to incorporate some design elements from old 50's/60's cars and went for a external "face" since I was struggling so much trying to do that in the interior. I even went for something of a license plate/ship number that from the front looks like a rabbit tooth ;)

-I'll try to work out some variations based on this idea with some other views to clarify the whole look but I wanted to post this before I got myself too swamped. Look forward to hearing from you ^^


Quote inspired by this project...:
"If at first you don't succeed, just keep drawing 'til you go insane. Insanity is a great source of inspiration." - Me

[jason01]

wow - I'm really liking this rabbit. the front really does look rabbit-like. my question now is - where's the door (how do you get it). does the bubble disappear and then reappear or does it beam people inside? or are there some steps that fold down like on a plane?

anyway - it may be late (your comment) - but well worth the wait. good job. and don't throw away those pages of searching - keep them - they are great for your portfolio.

oh - remember with design - there are places with details (usually smaller areas) and large areas where it's minimal. look at cars - large sides of cars - the details are in the front, near the tires, in the back, and usually have a purpose - lights, wheel wells, doors, handles, grills. also - you can push the variation. a lot of the pieces are similar size. the "face" of your rabbit is a good example - nose is small but cheeks are large. also - where the cheek and fender meet - try smoothing that out. this car has a front but it's still a sphere. and not based on a box like a normal car. so the transitions will probably be smoother. - just a thought - give it a shot and see what happens.

and the insanity comment - very nice - keep it up. .. . .

[-HAWK-]

Thanks for the critique ^^ It's helping alot as I look for ways to streamline the design and how it all works :) I'll probably be hammering it out over the next two weeks-ish so till then I'll go back to the other characters. For now here's the mischievous Cheshire ;) I worked on it's silhouette a bit to make it a little more interesting and I was just thinking of keeping it a solid color to focus on the grin but I tried a few other things to see what would happen.
-The alien Cheshire cat can camouflage itself like a chameleon, thus "disappearing" so I don't think it needs to be too complicated but I did think maybe Alice might spruce it up with a little cat space suit at some point, I don't know...

[jason01]

I really like the idea of changing colors like a chameleon. That's great. Now you just need to decide on a pattern. I like how the circles in the first one contrast the sweeping lines of the cat. the long lines of the second one are nice - surfboard-like - and say "fast" - they're speed stripes. I don't think the little shirt works for him. I like the tiger stripes, the wrap around lines break up the form too much, having no inner designs seems naked, and the sparse sploches could work.

since you've changed the ears (not iconic "cat" ears) - I think you should have a nose - well put one on and see how it looks - you don't have to keep it if you don't want to. It's up to you,

I love the tail. as for the front legs on this cat are different sizes (left leg longer and that the paw isn't flat with the other paw, but supposed to be right next to it, looks weird). don't just stop that one near us at the body, give a line (at least on one side) to show it goes to the shoulder. you might want to draw a skeleton for it. (also a great piece for your portfolio - it shows a lot of thought and proves it can be built and rigged in 3D).

http://www.telkman.co.uk/archive/2004/Dec/21/
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hYyFi7Gz75E/R2dfYBQ-W3I/AAAAAAAAALQ/DM4ZPiVinF4/s1600-h/FF+copy.jpg
http://www.inkwerkz.com/gallery/d/86-2/Portfolio-Creature+Design+01b.jpg

[jason01]

this is just for anyone to see - I didn't know where else to put it -

here's a list of books I find useful. I own all of these - and more - these are just the more useful ones.

art of books:
In the Future...: Entertainment Design at Art Center College of Design
The Skillful Huntsman: Visual Development of a Grimm Tale at Art Center. . .
Concept Design 2: Works from Seven Los Angeles Entertainment Designers . . .
Dream Worlds: Production Design for Animation by Hans Bacher
Art of 'Meet the Robinsons', The by Tracey Miller-Zarneke
The Art of Kung Fu Panda by Tracey Miller-Zarnecke
Shadowline: The Art of Iain McCaig by Iain McCaig
Brother Bear (Welcome Book) by H. Clark Wakabayashi
Surfs Up: The Art and Making of a True Story by Cody Maverick
The Art of Robots by Amid Amidi
The Art of The Incredibles by Mark Cotta Vaz
The Art and Making of Monster House by J. W. Rinzler
The Art of Animal Character Design by David Colman
The Art of Open Season by Linda Sunshine
Mechanika: Creating the Art of Science Fiction... by Doug Chiang
Prince of Egypt by Charles Solomon
Brand Studio Press Books:
Nightwork: the art of Mark Behm
Life of Silver by Stephan Silver
Confessions of a process Junkie by Alberto Ruiz
Mariachi Samurai by Jose Lopez
Fairy Sketches by Imaginism Studios
Spectrum: The Best in Contemporary Fantastic Art (Spectrum (Underwood Books)) by Cathy Fenner and Arnie Fenner
Revolution: The Art of Jon Foster by Jon Foster
More Fantasy Art Masters: The Best Fantasy and... by Dick Jude
Quantum Dreams: The Art of Stephan Martiniere by Stephan Martiniere
The Art of Mass Effect by Dan Birlew
Expose 3 by Daniel Wade; Paul Hellard
The Art of Star Wars, Episode II - Attack of th... by Mark Vaz
The Art of Star Wars, Episode I - The Phantom M... by Jonathan Bresman
Assassin's Creed Art Book by Prima Games
The Art of Darkwatch by Farzad Varahramyan and Chris Ulm
Syd Mead's Sentury by Syd Mead
The Art of Beowulf by Mark Cotta Vaz
The Art of Pirates of the Caribbean
Norman Rockwell Illustrator by Arthur L. Guptill
Norman Rockwell by Karal Ann Marling
Alphonse Mucha by Sarah Mucha
The Art of The Lord of the Rings by Gary Russell
The Movie Posters of Drew Struzan by Drew Struzan
Visions of Adventure: N. C. Wyeth and the Brandywine Artists by John Edward Dell and Walt Reed
Treasure Planet: A Voyage of Discovery by Jeff Kurtti and Jody Revenson
Mark Schultz: Various Drawings Volume Two
The Hidden Powers of Animals (Reader's Digest) by Karl P. N. Shuker
Legacy: Paintings and Drawings by Frank Frazetta by Frank Frazetta, Arnie Fenner, and Cathy Fenner
Hellboy: The Art of the Movie by Guillermo del Toro, Mike Mignola, Wayne Barlowe, and Ty Ellingson
An American Vision: Three Generations of Wyeth Art: N.C. Wyeth, Andrew Wyeth, James Wyeth by et al., James H. Duff
Remington and Russell: The Sid Richardson Collection by Brian W. Dippie
¬Henry Yan's Figure Drawing Techniques and Tips by Henry Yan
La Chronique des Immortels : Le Making of par Wolfgang Hohlbein, Benjamin von Eckartsberg, Thomas von Kummant
Caravaggio (Icon Editions) by Howard Hibbard and Shirley G. Hibbard
The Disney Villain by Ollie Johnston and Frank Thomas
Home on the Range: The Adventures of a Bovine Goddess by Monique Peterson and Jody Revenson
Zaoming Wu
Rembrandt Master of the Portrait by Bonafoux, Pascal
Art of the State: Arizona by Bix Cynthia
Pirates, Patriots, and Princesses: The Art of Howard Pyle (Dover Books on Fine Art) by Howard Pyle and Jeff A. Menges
NICOLAI FECHIN by By Mary N. Balcomb.
John Singer Sargent by Carter Ratcliff and John Singer Sargent
Michelangelo (Masters of Art) by Frederick Hartt
Claude Monet - 1840-1926: a Feast for the Eyes by Karin Sagner

comics and children’s books
The Goon Volume 1: Nothin' But Misery (Goon (Graphic Novels)) (v. 1) by Eric Powell
The Wonderful Wizard Of Oz by L. Frank Baum, David Chauvel, and Enrique Fernandez
V for Vendetta by Alan Moore and David Lloyd
Where the Wild Things Are by Maurice Sendak
Tuesday by David Wiesner
Finn McCoul by Brian Gleeson and Peter De Seve
Frankenstein Makes a Sandwich by Adam Rex
Dinotopia by James Gurney
Roger, the Jolly Pirate by Brett Helquist
The Spider and the Fly by Mary Howitt and Tony DiTerlizzi
Your Favorite Seuss: A Baker's Dozen by the One and Only Dr. Seuss by Dr. Seuss and Molly Leach

instructional
Directing the Story: Professional Storytelling... by Francis Glebas
Creating Characters with Personality: For Film,... by Tom Bancroft
Force: Dynamic Life Drawing for Animators, Seco... by Mike Mattesi
The Designer’s Guide to Color Combinations by Leslie Cabarga
Color - Messages & Meanings: A PANTONE Color Resource by Leatrice Eiseman
Creative Layout: Perspective for Artists by Thomas Denmark, Leandro Ng Joko Budiono
Faeries by Brian Froud and Alan Lee
The Artist's Complete Guide to Drawing the Head by William Maughan
Draw the Looney Tunes by Dan Romanelli
The Fantasy Figure Artist's Reference File with CD-ROM by Peter Evans and Glenn Fabry
50 Robots to Draw and Paint: Create Fantastic Robot Characters for Comic Books, Computer Games, and Graphic Novels by Keith Thompson
Anatomy for Fantasy Artists: An Illustrator's Guide to Creating Action Figures and Fantastical Forms by Glenn Fabry and Ben Cormack
An Atlas of Animal Anatomy for Artists by W. Ellenberger
Constructive Anatomy by George B Bridgman
Illustrating Children's Books: Creating Pictures for Publication by Martin Salisbury
Writing with Pictures: How to Write and Illustrate Children's Books by Uri Shulevitz
Drawing People by Barbara Bradley
Dynamic Figure Drawing (Practical Art Books) by Burne Hogarth
Composition: A Series of Exercises in Art Structure for the Use of Students and Teachers by Arthur Wesley Dow and Joseph Masheck
Exploring Character Design (Design Exploration Series) by Kevin Hedgpeth
Digital Character Design and Painting (Graphics Series) by Don Seegmiller
Film Directing Shot by Shot: Visualizing from Concept to Screen (Michael Wiese Productions) by Steve Katz
Notes on Directing: 130 Lessons in Leadership from the Director's Chair by Frank Hauser and Russell Reich
Cinematic Storytelling: The 100 Most Powerful Film Conventions Every Filmmaker Must Know by Jennifer Van Sijll
Alla Prima: Everything I Know About Painting by Richard Schmid
Carlson's Guide to Landscape Painting by John F. Carlson
Composition of Outdoor Painting by Edgar Payne


reference and inspiration
Facial Expressions: A Visual Reference for Artists by Mark Simon
The Art Spirit by Robert Henri
1000 On 42nd Street by Tibor Kalman, Maira Kalman, Neil Selkirk, and Yolanda Cuomo
Graffiti Planet: The Best Graffiti from Around the World by Alan Ket
Treasures of China by Editors of Reader's Digest
Nature's Extremes: Eight Seasons Shape a Southwestern Land by Lawrence W. Cheek
Monkey Portraits by Jill Greenberg, Paul Weitz, and Paul Myoda
IN THE LAND OF TEMPLE CAVES:. . . . by Frederick W. Turner
Body Worlds The Original Exhibition of Real Human Bodies - Catalog by Dr. Gunther von Hagens
The Tao of Photography: Seeing Beyond Seeing by Philippe L. Gross and S.I. Shapiro
Workers: An Archaeology of the Industrial Age by Sebastiao Salgado
Comic Artist's Photo Reference - People & P... by Buddy Scalera


the videos I found useful - I own the massive black videos.

Workshop videos:
Character Design with Gil Rimmer
Visual Storytelling with Iain McCaig
all Feng Zhu’s DVDs
Dylan Cole vol. 2
Historical Set with James Clyne
Intro to Corel Painter with Ryan Church
Neville Page’s DVDs

Massive Black Videos:
Shawn Barber - Foundation Painting
dan dos santos - Book cover illustration
Gary Kelley
Gregory Manchess - "Above the Timberline" - Part One & Part Two
El Coro - Weapon Design
Andrew Jones - thumbnail demo
Jason Chan - Quick Sketch
Jason Chan - Painter Sketch
Richard Doble - Creature Design part 1
Marko Djurdjevic - Character Ideation

others
Scott L. Christensen - Painting Large Landscapes

- what I'm saying is . . it takes a good investment to get outside materials - these are things that are on top of 4 years of undergrad in Industrial Design education and on top of 3 years of year round grad school in Fine Art and Illustration. but just seeing these things wont make you better - applying them and absorbing them along with other people's blogs (see my blog list of links at http://theartofjasonpruett.blogspot.com/) - make them your own. be inspired.

[-HAWK-]

I've been revising each of my characters in separate files and I felt that I was losing a bit of the cohesiveness so I lined them back up and worked on them next to eachother.

Hope you're having a great spring break! ^^

[jason01]

it's looking really good.

- king's glove and alice's boot look really similar, king's right forearm is longer than his left forearm. try experimenting with the shape of the armthing on the king. near the wrist it looks like a tube - maybe come in at an angle and queen's staff things are tangent with her boot - looks like it has tags. but I'm just nit picking here - overall it's really nice. cats feet are looking nice. - I guess you could design the king's gun thing now - unless you're happy with what it is.

good job. keep it up. :)

[jason01]

looks like we're getting this going again

[comixnut]

4 more days :) oh and i managed to sneak a couple of those 100 thumbnails into my portfolio. Not gonna have much time to finish any of those characters off for that but like i said i wanna do it after here. Really looking forward to it Jason so cheers.

[Arteater]

Vary clean work, I love the characters and style.

[Asatira]

Hi, Jason! So, are we restarting with the same theme/inspiration (Alice) or are we going for something new? I'm good with either.

[jason01]

let's do Alice in Wonderland. that way if the old crew wants to join back in - they can pick up where they left off and it'll all work together.

[Asatira]

Okay. Will start brainstorming some ideas and collecting inspirations, and will try to get it up within the next two days.

[BlueHabit]

Jason, would you happen to have any more spots available?

[Asatira]

Here's my inspiration. I dunno why, maybe because CN was showing Surf's Up this week, but I wanted to go with a Pacific Islands/surfer/ocean route. I wanted to keep it bright and colorful and organic looking, even if things will get a little weird. Need to gather some refs for coral reefs and more for clothing, but a good general idea. An even mix of inspiration from Lilo and Stitch and Surf's Up.

841558

[jason01]

Asatira - ok - do a rough pass at some characters, some environments, and some key moments of the story. we'll redo all of these - and explore each in depth - but it's good just to get your first impressions out of the way - and get your ideas out on paper

[Fantasy Jack]

Yeah , im Jack , im 17 and i want to focus on Character and Creature Design^^
Ok , i didnt find much for my Theme but heres what i got^^
Its pretty hard to find something =(
Its supposed to be a destroyed City where the "normal" people live and somekind of Artificial Tower where the "Nobles" live^^ Theyre all white and steril and so on^^

841880

[Asatira]

First group of silhouettes, done using the 10x10cm suggestion from earlier in the thread. This group has, top to bottom, the Queen, the King, and Alice. I already know that Alice is probably going to be the plainest character, and will be wearing regular clothes or beach related clothes. Will see if I can come up with a few more things for the Queen and King while I work on the Cheshire Cat and the White Rabbit.

842595

[LostFayth]

Hi everybody,

I just read Jason's reply to my PM approving me to join you for this session. I'm gonna collect some inspirational pictures/photos tomorrow and I hope to post them on Thursday along with some silhouettes.

I've been wanting to join this class since '08 and now I finally have. I'm so pumped for this! :D

Just a quick summary of me:
I'm Kailash, 20 years old living in the Netherlands. I want to get to know more about design (in general) and character design. It would also be cool to touch on environments and drawing out story beats. :) I'm really looking forward to a development of the alice in wonderland characters throughout this class. If you want to know more about me, or my work, check out my sketchbook ;)

I happy to call myself your classmate :)

----
EDIT

For now I leave you with a collage of some of my (current) favourite artists: Bouguerou, Mucha, Frazetta, Kawasaki, Hoefener and McCaig.

I also decided to go with an era I have never touched before: Post apocalyptic: Post 2012. How would the world look like when the world does end in 2012 and Alice lives in that world. Like I said I'm gonna find some material to make a trendcollage to show you guys what I have in mind from existing images and artwork, so bare with me ;)

[jason01]

Asatira - good start. You already have some pretty funky designs. that's a good way to get a quick read - keep pushing your designs.

[LostFayth]

Hey,

I made two inspiration sheets to show you what I'm aiming for.

World:
843739

Character:
843740

I was thinking of a concept like this:

Post Apocalypse: Post 2012.

Alice is looking for her parents in the town she used to live. The C.cat finds her and guides her trough the dangers of the destroyed world. Alice finds out her parents are alive and finds them. Upon finding them she sees that the two of which she thinks are her parents are in fact the Queen and King of Hearts who are after her for her *insert valueble thingy here*. Alice finds out she's been fooled and runs for her life. The Queen and King in their place send the White Rabbit to make sure Alice never makes it back home.

I made a few silhouettes, I will show them on Friday.

[jason01]

LostFayth - I like your story. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[jason01]

Fantasy Jack - I like the contrast between the sterile and the dirty.

[Asatira]

Kinda irked a little that I couldn't come up with more for the Cat. I mean, it's a (mildly) shape shifting cat! Anywho, the Cat and the White Rabbit.

844054

[jason01]

These little explorations are really fun to see. They're confining - and that's the point - but they may be too confining. if you want to really extend some lines - go for it. - it makes the octopus mermaid thing more interesting, no? - or you could go for a thicker look - either way you'd be trying out new areas - pushing the design further. remember Carl from "UP"? he was really squarish.

also - as you see with the cats - try some basic shapes. the cat in "Bolt" was skinny with a big head. Dug from "UP" was fat, with short legs, and a big nose.

this applies to realistic things as well - the old sherlock holmes - Basil Rathbone - he was tall and skinny - sharp nose like a beak. and his partner - Dr. Watson was short and fat. there was never a question of who was who - especially where silhouette played such a big role (in those old black and white movies - they had something going on there).

[Asatira]

I guess we're at the point where I could start playing with the silhouettes and start pushing them a bit further. While I'd like to get your feedback, I'm going ahead and pointing out the ones I think have some potential. I'll probably work with a mix of our two choices to see what I can come up with.

Queen: 3, 5, and 6
King: 2, 5, 7, and 11
Alice: 1 and 7, play with the potential age (young girl to teens)
Cheshire Cat: 2, 3, and 4, maybe 6
White Rabbit: 2, 3, 8, and 9

[jason01]

put them next to each other in a line up and see how they look next to each other. you can rearrange and mix and match and stretch and pull as you go.

[LostFayth]

Okay, it's Friday. So here are my silhouettes.

I made them on paper with markers, ball-point pens and fine liners to keep changing the flavor. I ended up xerox-ing them all and blackening them with a Copic marker. I did them with a general shape in mind without thinking too much. I didn't think of size relationship to each other yet. It could be something I could do after refining them right?

To give you what I did here is an overview of all the silhouettes:
845761

845754

845756

845758

845757

845760

I hope I did it right. :)

[jason01]

LostFayth - awesome! that's a lot of drawings. I like that you experimented with materials

you seem to going for a realistic look - see the link below.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2008/11/baker3.jpg

do this type of thing with your pages of characters - remember to pay attention to anatomy. don't rely totally on your imagination. put up pictures of people so it's easier to get proportions. you can tweek and stretch and bend it, but it's good to have your drawing based in reality. - even if you're doing something cartoony - it's helpful to have a picture to remind you where the knees are and and ankles and what not.

I look forward to seeing this next batch of drawings.

[LostFayth]

Thank you Jason for your input.

I've been able to rework the Alice silhouettes. I must say it takes a little longer than I anticipated. I needed about two hours to go over these 20 silhouettes :o Am I going in a right direction or am I off by a long shot? It's rather hard to come up with shapes within the silhouette that could be an accessory or something similar.

I reworked them in photoshop.
848697

[jason01]

These are right on - these look legit. - just do this with the other characters and you'll be in good shape

[comixnut]

Running a little low on ideas for my cheshire cat. I think considering that i cannot get away from the idea of turning him into a roller coaster car with the tracks appearing in front and disappearing behind him like magic, maybe i should go larger and muck about with that.

I think i will switch between characters too.

[comixnut]

and this is where i was up to with the White Rabbit before i disappeared into my course.

[jason01]

comixnut - for the white rabbit, I really like the one on the end - the white one with the hand reaching into the hat.- explore this - how do the legs attach? Does it have 2 legs? do some sketches on this guy

for the cheshire cat.. draw some more in 3/4 view - that's really interesting. and starts to communicate more of what it would be.

[LostFayth]

Oh my god...it took ages for me to rework them all. But I got it done.

Alice:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=848697&d=1260215745

Queen:
860901

King:
860900

Cheshire Cat:
860899

White Rabbit:
860907

I look forward to your feedback :)

[jason01]

lostfayth - these are looking good - make a few line ups. where you get to see one next to the other. Alice, Cheshire cat, queen, etc. . that's where it counts. that's where you really need to tweek thinks - getting them to look right together (using the principles of contrast and affinity).

[Streetz]

Is it too late to join this ?

[jason01]

Sorry Streetz - Not right now. I recommend Design Studio Press' "the Skillful Huntsman" as a place to see the process. if you follow those steps and keep practicing that would probably be the best thing you could do. . . . actually - that goes for everybody. Get that book and try out the processes it shows. keep working on your own. I'm moving today and don't know when I'll get internet in my new place. could be a while. Keep working.

[Ian Barker]

Sorry Streetz - Not right now. I recommend Design Studio Press' "the Skillful Huntsman" as a place to see the process. if you follow those steps and keep practicing that would probably be the best thing you could do. . . . actually - that goes for everybody. Get that book and try out the processes it shows. keep working on your own. I'm moving today and don't know when I'll get internet in my new place. could be a while. Keep working.

I also recomend this book, it is excellent.

I'm enjoying looking in on this class, lots of cool stuff here. :)

[LostFayth]

Thank for the tip, Jason. I will purchase the book by the end of this month ;)

I had some time to spare, so I made the lineups. In terms of silhouette line ups, the first is my favorite. In terms of size relationship i'd pick the second or third. But I'm all open for your suggestions! :D (Oh and they are in the following line up: Alice, Cheshire Cat, Queen of Hearts, King of Hearts and The White Rabbit.)

Looking forward to it. Oh and good luck with moving! :D

[comixnut]

LostFayth - those are looking awesome mate, cannot wait to see the details being fleshed out.

[jason01]

Lost Fayth - I like #1 - this would be good for a live action film -

I like what you have going on here. nice variation of detail and each character has a distinct silhouette.

you could push the shapes a bit more. have more thick and thin. get a more distinct silhouette. not saying you need to use my suggestions - just offering them to show there are ways to push it.

but I really like the rabbit as it is!

[LostFayth]

Omg.....how can I forget about this!? I've been busy with my semester finals....man I'm so glad that's over with. Thank you for doing this and being so patient! :D

The alterations of the silhouettes:
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And my favs:
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What's up next? :D I have some time free which I can spend on this for the next couple weeks. I look forward to your feeback.

[jason01]

now take your favorite one - you have there at the bottom and do a line drawing.

something like this - http://bp2.blogger.com/_2Gmp5zzO_jg/R8iL0ATgCoI/AAAAAAAAAPI/qCMPyWQ8k1Y/s1600-h/StyleExplore-Rebel-Soldiers.jpg

[LostFayth]

Thanks! :D This is going to be fun. Do you recommend to do some research first? I mean...I did some research at the start of the project, but I might find some problems drawing stuff when I want to flesh out the design. I think it would be good to do some research as in looking for reference material, don't you think?

[jason01]

absolutely - research is great

[ekobor]

Hope you don't mind I'll be following along on this -- again. I was back-seat participating last time as well. =P

[comixnut]

i think i may go with the last one in this series as to the shape of my white rabbit Jason, if that's ok with you! I like his hands better the second one and the first was looking a little to much like a rip off of humpty dumpty .LOL

[LostFayth]

Okaaay....I guess it took me a little longer than I anticipated.

I scanned my favorite sketch of all the drawings I made. I don't know....They don't look what I wanted achieve with em (Post Apocalyptic Alice in Wonderland)

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As for the Cheshire cat and White Rabbit...I seriously don't know what direction to take them both. Are they man, machine or beast...hmm...I guess the silhouettes looked nice but they're a bit out of my league. I've never drawn animal humanoids or androids.... Do I need to push it with those two? Help me, please Jason :(

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I'm rather happy with Alice, Queen and King. They kind of portray what I had in mind when doing the silhouettes. I feel like doing studies of the Cat and Rabbit....to find what they exactly are and how I can portray that. The Rabbit could be a real rabbit with some android elements. The Cat is just a big mystery to me.

[jason01]

cool - now get reference photos for these people and redraw them while using the photos as reference. It's a valuable tool of the trade.

[LostFayth]

All right :)

Can you tell me what I should do with the cat and rabbit because I think I will be caught in it for too long. Some art direction would be sweet ;)

I also purchased The Skillful Huntsman. Man...you were right. It really is great. It's also great that Mike, Felix and Khang together with Scott provide comments for each spread. It sure gives a whole new dimension to the images.

[jason01]

with the rabbit and the cat - try mixing reference of human and animal - they look like human bodies with animal heads (and tails) - so look at human bodies - with clothes on - then you can produce drawings that show how the cloth falls like they do at Ravensoft - http://ravensoftart.blogspot.com/

[urmb]

Thanks for this forum Jason. Very Appreciated. I'll follow along on this soon.

[xseoer]

An actual proper reply coming soon (and thanks for this Jason).

First my research which i should have done to begin with.

Amazing !

[LostFayth]

Hey Jason, sorry for the lack of updates. I've really been busy with school and making art together with writing lots of papers just for school. If you are still willing to guide me along I want to pick this up again as soon as you say you can.

My time not working on this project wasn't in vain. I've done lots of other stuff developing my techniques. Check out my sketchbook if you want to know what I've been up to. I also read and applied the process written in The Skillful Huntsman a few times. :)

[jason01]

LostFayth - Good to see you're still keeping at it.

I have begun teaching at the Academy of Art online and that and other projects keep me from having any more time to do mentoring on conceptart.org. keep working and good luck.

[LostFayth]

All right. I'm glad to hear that. Thank you for the time and effort you have put into mentoring me. I've learnt a lot I'm glad I had the chance to study with you. Thanks again!