What more is there to do?

[JParrilla]

So now that Ive compiled from this site all of the best advice on improving myself.. im wondering if theres anything im missing or something more I could be doing. Heres what my studies consist of currently. I go to 4 hours of life drawing 2 times per week, I almost always have a master copy in progress and work on them anywhere from 4 hours to many days, depending on the complexity, soon these will include bargues.. , I TRY to draw a still life everyday.. anything from fruit to my computer, soon these will include casts when I actually get one, I carry my sketchbook everywhere.. sketching people in my family, people outside, buildings, squirrels, my feet, whatever lol, I do book study just about every night.. right now the books are Sheppards anatomy book, bridgman stuff, loomis, vilppu, and I started reading Harold Speeds practice and science of drawing, then with whatever extra time I have.. I do more leasurly stuff such as painting in photoshop or painter, copying a favorite illustration, messing with ink and brush.. whatever. So basically this is what I do with my "art time" in my life.. which is currently most of my time. Im looking foward to doing casts and bargues very soon. Im currently trying to generally improve my drawing skills.. especially life drawing. My figures arent bad.. but once I begin applying the light and shadow.. oo boy its not good. Im hoping doing some bargues and casts will help this out. So can anyone let me know how my regimen sounds?

[deepbluehue]

It sounds pretty hard core.

[JParrilla]

HAHA.. ehh its not bad.. If it wasnt fun Id definetely say its hardcore but it doesnt seem like much

[Zazerzs]

START A THREAD AND GET POSTIN' ! lets see your efforts and all that :) you're gonna have to do it sooner or later, might as well start now.

[JParrilla]

I know man.. I'm embarrased that I haven't yet. I talk so much shit about studying and I show nothing. I actually started a SB thread but I was very unhappy with the digi camera quality so I deleted all the images. I'm completely broke right now cause I'm not workin this summer, and my dads not dishin the money out like he used to :).. But as soon as I can I will buy a scanner.. Probrobly within the week or next week. You have my word that I will put my stuff up.. After all I need you guys cause I have no teacher :(

[the_allejo05]

sounds good..dont forget to start imagination drawings..be it figures, or compositional studies...is good practice to test your skills on it.hmm what else if you want to have more fun, do some drapery, clothing studies, learn the laws of folds, get into anatomy of animals,learn about epressions of a face..(although that is best tackle when you have mastered the face), study theory of color, dont forget your perspective, maybe sketch interiors or do a plein air painting. hmm what else, draw circles by the thousands as well as cubes. sketch plates ,ellipses. visit an art museum and analize how paintings are done, study skin tones. I will be posting Leonardo davinci's advice on what does a painter need to study. :)
later.

[JParrilla]

Thanks so much for that advice man.. I forgot to add that I have been working from imagination.. Mainly using vilppu, that guy sheldon from youtube, and EM Gists pdf to draw figures from my mind.. Something I long to be able to do well. I will surely add the things you've mentioned, especially the drapery. I'm probrobly gonna hold off with the color until I'm more comfortable with value in grayscale. I really don't paint at all because I feel like I need to be more proficient at drawing first.

[The Pariano]

Hah if your broke, sounds like you should add" commissioned work" to your art regimen dontcha think?
Sounds like if you keep up with all that you will improve very fast.

[The Pariano]

Hah if your broke, sounds like you should add" commissioned work" to your art regimen dontcha think?
Sounds like if you keep up with all that you will improve very fast.

[JParrilla]

Hah I wish I could make money with my art.. Its not quite good enough yet though :) thanks for your opinion on my regimen, I just want to know that all this hard work I'm putting into this will pay off down the road. I know there's no end.. And I see improvment.. Which is good. I would just hate to go on doing these things for a long time only to find out that I couldve did it differently and gotten better results. The way I look at it.. With so many accomplished artists in the world, and art being around since the beginning of man.. Why the hell should I have to take an unnecessarily slow .. Or even bad approach to becoming an artist? :) hehe I mean that in the best way.. Its true though.. I'm sure that through the years all the "bad" methods have been recognized.. And for someone in my position.. I'm hoping to be able to take advantage of people who did this before me.. And avoid progress hindering pitfalls.. That's my ramble for tonight.. Any more suggestions are welcome.. SB is coming soon!

[Santon]

This will sound trite, so brace yourself. Get a job.

Drawing is great. Technical skill is awesome, and it sounds like you know where to look for that. But "art" isn't always about the paper, the pen, the ink, the paint. Look to life for inspiration, do something you don't think you'll like, see how it fits.

If you get a job, you meet new people you might not meet anywhere else, do things you wouldn't ever have thought about. I tend to think of my jobs as experiments...and an opportunity to watch people, what makes them who they are... You could spend all your time working on your skill, but there is more to life than that. Don't be in a rush to improve, take your time.

I don't know. I'm full of crap, and this is probably poor advice. Think of a writer who does nothing but write, and ends up writing about writing, which isn't a bad thing...but there are other things that can be written about as well... same sorta thing with pictures and whatnot.

Dedication is good though. I'm envious.

[dcorc]

Im looking foward to doing casts and bargues very soon. Im currently trying to generally improve my drawing skills.. especially life drawing. My figures arent bad.. but once I begin applying the light and shadow.. oo boy its not good. Im hoping doing some bargues and casts will help this out.

While there is a lot to be said for trying a bit of everything, it is possible to set up an ordered program of progression.

Bargues and cast studies come before life-drawing, and life drawing comes before drawing from imagination. Why? Because Bargues and cast-drawing are easier than life drawing (though admittedly many people use bargues and cast-drawing as very advanced exercises - and dreadful shoddy life-drawings by people who have no clue whatsoever what they are doing are innumerable).

The original intention of Bargue and cast drawing (before they became the fashionable thing to draw with pinpoint accuracy and render to the nth degree) was to teach how to transfer the 3D shape onto a flat surface, and break down and slightly simplify the image into light and dark masses. The bargue plate provides a simplified model, where some of the work (projecting the 3D form onto the 2D surface; and simplifying it into clear-cut light and dark masses) has already been done for you - its implicitly saying - "use the same way of looking at line-lengths and angles and relationships when you look at a 3D object", and "look, these are the sort of light and dark masses you should be looking for" - and - "here's how you create form, by paying attention to the gradual shading transitions in the half-tones".

The point of doing cast studies is to realise how light plays across the surface of the 3D form. You apply the lessons learned from doing the Bargue and take it into 3D. Cast studies are easier than life-drawing for two reasons. Firstly, the pose stays exactly the same - it doesn't move like a live model. Secondly, you are looking at the form entirely in terms of light and shade - it removes the additional complexity (and variability) of flesh-colour from the process. It is saying to you "look at how light and shade show the form - look at the shadow-shapes - look at how transitions in halftones show the form (and surface texture) look at how highlights relate to the direction the light comes from. Look at how bounced light comes back into the shadows from other adjacent objects".

Painting from life brings in flesh-colour, the fact that sitters do not remain totally immobile, poses, and how muscle anatomy varies with pose. (read anatomy books too - where people do life drawings and portraits and know no anatomy, the fact sticks out like a sore thumb).

While this is going on, still lifes teach many of the same principles about modelling form, and allow concentration on different materials - how things characteristically look and behave, why cloth looks different from metal and so on.

I would say only when you have some experience in all of these should you then be drawing from imagination. Otherwise you are reinforcing symbolic drawing, drawing what you think stuff looks like, before you've trained your eye to look closely at real visual appearances.

Dave

[Seedling]

Is "having fun" on your list? All work and no play will burn you out.

[Farvus]

There are people out there who can do a perfect life drawing, but when you ask them to sketch something from head without reference, they don't know what to do. I think you're on that path beacause there is no imagination drawing on your list.

[JParrilla]

Santon - Thanks for that advice.. I definetely agree. I do not wanna be the guy with great skill but absolutely no artistic soul whatsoever. I do read a lot so thats good inspiration. Im also not cooped up all the time.. I go out with friends and whatnot.. but a job is definetely something i need :) Im goiing away to college in 2 months so Im sure a lot of new things will happen to me.. hopefully I can use it in my art.

dcorc - Thanks for all of that. Im concerned about what you said about bargues and casts coming before life drawing.. I mean.. I cant imagine me hurting myself by doing life drawing simultaneously. Im sure that doing the bargues and casts will bring my life drawing to a new level completely.. but do I really have to drop life drawing until I do casts and bargues for a while? Im pretty sure Ive read here that people in ateliers even attend life drawing sessions.. and their doing casts and bargues at the same time. About the imagination stuff.. Im always getting mixed opinions. Some say what you did about waiting until Ive gotten better at other stuff.. others say do it now.

Seedling - Of course its on my list :) Its mixed in haha. I mean Im having fun when doing 90 percent of my studies. Some stuff is boring im not gonna lie. Anatomy and studies from books can get boring.. but thats about it. The other stuffs great.. the most fun is master copies and when I just cut loose and do some pen and ink or comic stuff. As far as non art fun.. I play hockey, try to stick to my workout, run almost everyday, hang out with my ambitionless friends who drink all day :). I have to say im pretty content lol. I would be a hell of a lot happier if my art was better.. thats why im goin so crazy with it :) I just really wanna be great.. I dont wanna be mediocre.. that may sound like im getting ahead of myself but i think its good. I see work on here and I really want to achieve their level and higher. To be able to create art at such an amazing level is something ive wanted to do for longer than I can remember. The reason i took so long to actually pursue this.. is because I had an EXTREMELY false idea about artists. I thought that being great was 100% natural and I never knew that one could become an artist.. or learn to draw. I never put art in the same class as learning the guitar.. or learning to play hockey.. I kinda made it this magical thing. Then I stumbled over on this site.. and my eyes just got ripped wide open. Once I realized it was attainable... I was all over it. I had been doodling and messing around for so long.. thinking thats where id stay.. now I know I can get better.. and I want it... I want it bad :) MCM's sketchbook proves that anythings possible

Farvus - Theres another point of view on the imagination drawing topic. dcorc's opinion was quite opposite. Well anyway I do imagination drawing,, not very often.. but I do. I try to draw the figure from my head.., I attempt very simple environments in photoshop, etc

[dose]

If you'd ever like to draw from imagination, now is the time to start practicing. Drawing from imagination points out holes in your understanding and gives you direction what to specifically work on when drawing from life. Skipping out on drawing from imagination will give you trouble in the long run, just as drawing solely from life or solely copying will give you trouble.

It's a long, slow road learning to draw from imagination, but it will ultimately help your life drawing and give you more freedom as an artist.

(I understand you do draw some from imagination, but I thought I'd stress its importance and downplay any idea that you should wait until you've reached some certain level before starting.)

[JParrilla]

Dose - thanks for that man. It makes sense that I should at least try to draw from my imagination.. As long as I'm realizing what's wrong with my drawings.. And attempting to correct them by studying from life and such. I could imagine that drawing from imagination blindly, without seeing your mistakes and trying to improve, would pretty much do nothing for you. But I definetly analyze my work.. And when somethings wrong.. Which it usually is.. I find reference from photos, life, or other art and try to fix my stuff. That's why its crucial that I get a SB started.. So you guys can tell me where I've gone wrong

[My57]

wow you sound like your putting a lot of effort into improving your self. Im good at copying stuff but i can't draw as well out of my head. Try practicing drawing out of your head... try fantasy drawing, make up some creatures and stuff.

- awww crap someone else already said imagination. Oh well. Read my post and thank me due to my sheer awesome typing skills xD

lol have fun drawing.

[dcorc]

dcorc's opinion was quite opposite.

Err, no, not quite. What I am saying is that, for example, if you want to create a convincing-looking dragon, you need to know enough about anatomy to be able to create plausible-looking structures - you need to understand enough about how light plays over 3D shapes, and about materials. If you want to paint a velvet cloak, you need to know what velvet looks like.

Dose - thanks for that man. It makes sense that I should at least try to draw from my imagination..

Check out Tim Dose's sketchbook, and note the proportion there of work from imagination versus work from observation, and how he's spending his time drawing from life - sketches of people on the underground etc, as well as life classes and so on. Imaginative work is thus placed on a solid basis of observational training.


Dave

[JParrilla]

dcorc - I definetely understood what you were saying.. and the fact that drawing from life will improve imaginative work is surely true. I kinda took your post as saying not to even attempt imaginative drawing yet. Yes its true that it will be bad.. and its also true that the only way to get better at it is to draw from life.. but I figured I needed to at least try to draw from my head.. to see where my flaws are. This isnt too big of an issue for me right now because I draw from life, good photos, and masters almost exclusively. When I draw from imagination its usually not fully imagination.. mostly reference that I study prior.

[Ramon Hurtado]

It's great to hear you're putting yourself through this regiment, it WILL pay off in the end, I assure you. I didn't start a structured schedule like this, and I still feel like I improved quite a bit from where I was the summer before college (it's been a year now), so expect to see greater improvement :)

If you can, try to find a good drawing teacher when you get to college, if there are none at your school, then look for outside classes. A good teacher will make you improve much much faster.

I agree with Dcorc's advice regarding casts and bargues, you need to keep them in perspective and know what they're for, spending 3 months drawing one may not be the best use of your time. In Bargues, shape is king, don't expect to learn how light really behaves, since ol' Charlie downplayed the reflected light in a lot of them, etc. Casts are for form/light, when doing them, I would suggest using a slightly different approach from the bargues. What's missing in a lot of ateliers right now is teaching perspective and solid structure, as opposed to copying. However, the Russian academies will make you understand the perspective and 3d aspects of the cast before you start rendering, like Vilppu. So aim for the 2nd option.

Drawing from imagination, should start now, if you're following Vilppu's book when you do life drawing, you should approach drawing from your head the same way. As your understanding of the 3d aspects of the figure gets better and better, you'll notice that your imaginative drawing will improve.

Moreover, I personally don't think you think you can master life drawing, then draw from your head. Drawing from imagination is part of mastering life drawing, the general mantra is "if you can't draw it from your head, you don't understand it well enough".

One you major goals is being able to draw the skeleton from your head, from any angle, it's really paramount, and very few people can do it nowadays. It will give your figures a solidity that rendering by itself never will. I'm attaching some examples, hope you don't mind. The flying skeletons were done from imagination by Daniel Huntington, a Hudson River landscape painter. Renaissance painters did similar things. Vilppu recommends this too, and NC Wyeth taught his son Andrew to do the same thing. Lucky for you, you can learn how to do it from studying Vilppu and some more anatomy.

http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/panchosimpson/anatomical%20drawings/?action=view&current=d1.jpg
http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/panchosimpson/anatomical%20drawings/?action=view&current=d5.jpg
http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/panchosimpson/anatomical%20drawings/?action=view&current=d7.jpg

Lastly, know your perspective, learn it now. It's really empowering once you learn it, even if you don't set up correct perspective all the time, it will give your freehand drawings greater authority. Rex Vicat Cole's book is really good.

About getting a job...I would say no, It sounds like you're balancing your life well, and enjoying all the time you have for art, that's what counts. Everyone has to go through intense training at some point, might as well do it now, once it's done, you can live all you want and have the means to express your experiences. A super lax approach, spreading your time over a bunch of things is the surest path to mediocrity. So keep doing what you're doing Joe, you've shown a great attitude and desire to improve, keep it up and you'll go far.

Best,
-Ramon

[JParrilla]

Thanks sooo much Ramon, that was so helpful for me. I wasn't originally going to follow a regiment.. But a chat I had with MindCandyMan made me decide to do it. I had told him that I wanted to be an illustrator, but I still was interested in fine art. I told him that I was attending a normal university in september and not majoring in art. He suggested that I self teach myself drawing, using various methods especially the academic atelier method ( bargues, casts, master study, etc). Then after college.. I should have developed good drafting skills and then attempt to get into illustration school.. So that's my plan. That's why I decided on a loose regiment.. So that after my 4 years.. I will hopefully be a competant draftsman and be good enough to pursue my dream of illustration.. Which will require furthur study than just the acadmic drawing process. I'm going to take your advice and learn all I can. Once I get my work up, I'm hoping to use this site as a replacement for art school.. Helping me along until I get out of college and try out illustration school.

[Ramon Hurtado]

yeah, no problem :) Funny I'm trying to get into an illustration school right now! When working with the "academic method" be careful, or at least, don't let it take over your drawing. As it is practiced in ateliers today, the method is missing a big part of the equation, the exercises are good, but there's no real reason to spend 40 hours drawing a single figure except for training purposes. In illustrations you'll have deadlines tighter than a scenester's pants, and you'll need to draw efficiently (which is where what Vilppu teaches comes in). Take a look at Dean Cornwell's stuff, I have a thread posted here with really high res scans of his work. You can't get much better than him in terms of illustration, so it's nice to see his process, etc.

best of luck!

[dcorc]

There are a couple of major approaches to figure-drawing, it seems to me. One is constructive anatomy, which basically builds figures based on boxes or other simple geometrical solids, which are then refined.

The other is sight-size/proportional etc, which is based on "projecting" a flattened version of the figure onto the canvas - now (before a whole lot of people go off the deep end at me about misunderstanding what I mean by the word "projected") I mean here finding a series of points (sight-size, or proportional sizing), or an envelope (as per Tony Ryder) and refining the shapes of the edges in terms of lengths, angles, and relationships of line-segments - you might think of it as a bit like tracing (another red rag to a bull, for those with short attention-spans :P) the lines onto a plate of glass, in the drawing plane, between yourself and the subject - this, shifted sideways, is basically what you are doing to get your placements, in the Bargue approach.

I'd argue that you need to synthesise both approaches together. Here at CA there is a strong emphasis on constructive anatomy. Good drawing from imagination requires constructive anatomy skills, so that makes sense in the context of this site. However, the danger of the constructive anatomy approach is that figures may end up formulaic and generic. The sight-size approach offers a corrective to that because it teaches observational skills.

As Ramon says, however, a lot of the ateliers seem to be emphasising sight-size/bargue/cast based approaches, while not being so strong on constructive anatomy - thus we see highly polished paintings of immotile figures who look like Dr von Hagens has got to them with his "bodyworlds" plastinating solution. ;)

So again - you need both, and to apply knowldge of both to drawings from imagination. Just to keep you busy, you can then add in a third approach, which is to consider a role for geometrical composition (golden section and so on).


Dave

[JParrilla]

Thank you to both Ramon and Dave.

Ramon - glad to hear you want to go to illustration school. I mostly see master copies and gouche stuff from you.. I thought you were more into the fine art side of things. What you said about making academic training take over is very true. Its funny you said that because I'm currently readin Harold Speeds book and he talks about how some atelier students make their assignments an end instead of a means. Basically meaning that the studies are meant to help one improve and create better art.. But instead the students get so caught up in it that they see it as art in itself. It is art.. But doing a 40 hour cast drawing perfectly isn't meant to be an artists greatest piece.. It should be done to learn how to create better personal work. So between you and Harold Speed.. That's good advice :) my inspiration and artistic goal is really sci fi, fantasy, comic style illustration. But I've also been really inspired by fine art as well. I make sure that this academic stuff doesn't consume me by always making sure I spend time drawing from my imagination, studying my favorite illustrators, or drawing from fun photos such as environments and such

Dave - I was always concerned about the whole constructive vs sight approach.. I even started a thread about it a while back. Many people encouraged me to mix both approaches to get the best results.. So that's what I've been doing. I study bridgman and vilppu type books.. As well as Ryder/ sight size books.