Art vs. love

[Charshie]

Hey guys,

Title says it all. I am going through something very difficult right now, and am at a junction. Don't want to elaborate more, but I am curious. If faced with the decision of choosing focus on art and potentially losing someone you wished to spend the rest of your life with; or choosing love and being stuck indefinitely in a very steady, very white-collar corporate job because it *makes sense* what would you do.

~ Char

[Dave_]

If he/she( ? ) can't live with the fact that you're joing art as a job, then maybe he/she is not right for you.

[tomwaits4noman]

been there and its tough especially if you're living with the person and if in my case the only interest I was "allowed" have was them.

My question is why can't you have both.

If they really love you they should in theory understand that you want to spend some time on your art that it means a l ot to you, the trick is not to neglect them either.

You should be able to divided your week up into job, relationship and art

This is greatly helped by working different shift patterns and having different days off.

[TASmith]

a couple things that weigh into the decision:

1. what's your art skill level?
2. what are your art goals and how economically viable are they?
3. Are your art goals at all compatable with another steady job along the way?
4. How strongly do you two feel about each other? It'd suck if he/she left you two years from now for some other guy/gal, after you gave up art.

[Nrx]

Screw sense your gonna die, might as well go wild. ;p

But, i think alot of people are seeing this in a unfair way considering how little info you've given us.

If you and your partner need money, and there bringing in money but your not you need to do your fair share to bring in the money and find a way to work on your art at the same time.

If your doing fine for money and your partner just wants more money, wants you to have a normal job whatever, then ask yourself, If you sacrifce the part of yourself that loves the artistic industry, will the person thats left still love them?

[JMcWilliams]

Nrx nailed it on the head. :)

[reidaj]

Heres a question I asked myself in a past relationship, and it helped me to make up my mind:

If I spend time working on my own hobbies, interests, passions, etc.., does my partner view that as time I spend on bettering myself, or time I need to spend away from them?

In my case the answer was the latter, and that convinced me to hit the road. So now I'm happily married to someone else who thinks its cute I spend so much time in my studio, because she loves to read and likes time to herself as well.

Might be a totally different issue from what your facing, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

[wassermelone]

You need to find someone that supports your dreams rather than wants you to excise them.

[Charshie]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I didn't want to put too much information just for privacy reasons. In a nutshell re: what Nrx was saying, yeah I am doing fine for money. I actually just got offered a promotion yesterday, lol.......but at Macy's. As a Customer Service Lead Manager. I am already in training as a general store manager.

So the choice I face is essentially follow that path, which is safe and steady and stay in this area with my man, or move back with my parents ditching the career-woman corporate life I've developed to focus solely on art. The first choice gives me pretty much no free time to work on my portfolio or invest the time promoting myself that I need. It started out a year ago as a temporary money fix, and led into this. I don't want to glue myself to a job this demanding unless I seriously want to pursue it as a career.

However, it is also the logical choice in terms of saving money, paying student loans at the moment.....and staying with my love. Who btw is also an artist struggling to find a voice in the industry.

This is longwinded, lol. So yeah I can just basically see two very different lives available to me right now, and I can't reconcile in my mind what I would rather do.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

Macy's sucks

I'm not going to tell you what to do

love feeds art

[Blue]

This seems like a fairly odd question to me, actually. Not because the answer is obvious, and you are missing it, but because the other person who 'loves' you is asking you to change a huge part of your persona...a persona they supposedly love.

I've made sacrifices in the past against my art carrier to sustain relationships, but none of them worked. Oddly enough, it was only when I became as unbending as a rock about it, that I found someone who would never put me in that scenario and even appreciates what I do (and being a part of it).

In a nutshell: If you're making this post in the 1st place, art is a big enough part of your soul you don't want to lose it. This person can't love you if they ask you to lose it. From experience I've found trying to "save" a relationship constantly at the expense of such important things, will not make it work. The perfect relationship is someone who supports what you love.

Keep that in mind.

[bhanu]

From experience I've found trying to "save" a relationship constantly at the expense of such important things, will not make it work.
QUoted for truth...
If a person loves you , he/she sets you free..or lets you draw....or something like that.
Ha who am I to talk, I suck at this relationship thingies too...

[~Faust~]

What? You're young! You should consider that there are other guys around that will love you and won't use you as their sugar-momma just to fullfill their own dreams.

[VulgarDragon]

Well, it doesn't sound like a very ambitious job. But if that is all you can get for now and it pays the bills, stick with it, and work on art in your spare time.

Let's face it...art business is a cutthroat business. It is hard to get in, hard to make a living from. There are millions of artist wannabes trying to get in, some better than you, and lot not. It is just crazy. You could have a great gig one day and then go for months without anything. Even though it sucks as a regular job, it can be a great job for part time and for extra income.

This is what I am currently doing...I have a great full time job that pays good. Not art related or what I love to do, but still, it pays the bills. And I work on my art in my part time. My wife understand that it is what I love to do and lets me spend my time on it.

If your partner doesn't accept that or understand that you have a *need* to do art and it is what you love to do, and you *need* to spend at least part of your time doing that...well I don't think it will work out. My two cents.

[Justice Von Brandt]

Art is forever, love comes and goes

[Wooly ESS]

A characteristic of successful, long term relationships is that each person in the relationship lets the other person be who they are. I don't know how that plays out in your case, but it may be something to think about.

[gruve24]

Women come and go like money...If your having a tough time deciding whether choosing your goals over being with 1 woman, then you probably don't have "game" and your using corny love cliches' to mask your desperation and lack of ability to get multiple women.

Bottom line, make the choice that benefits you !! Make the choice that you want and will make you happiest ! Women should NOT factor into the equation.

You need to ask yourself...do you have the courage to make the decisions that will truly make you happy, or will you be another sheep like the majority of people in this country who hate their lives and only live for weekends and vacation.

[That fat kid]

Wait, he's into art too? Why not just work with him at night to spend time together? If there's a will, there's got to be a way. As they say, love conquerors all. And I've never been able to believe people who say they "have no time."

And way to read the thread before a knee jerk post ^

[nonie]

Hey gruve24 - read the OP's posts before you go injecting your misogynistic shit in here, she's a girl talking about her man. It's always so refreshing to hear your opinions on our gender's disposability though. Thanks for your input :P

Charshie - if he's also an artist and he's trying to get you to keep your job... Sounds like either A. he wants to use you for a meal ticket while he chases the dream instead of you, or B. he's too afraid to take the risk himself and so no one else should.

If you're serious about this, you can make it - art is not as cutthroat as people make it out to be if you are reliable and have some skill. The hard part is only those first few jobs.

I chose art over love (well it wasn't a very good relationship anyway) and it has worked out really great - got the job I was shooting for *and* a great new bf that totally understood my ambitions and goals and helped me achieve them. As That Fat Kid said, if he's an artist too maybe you guys can work out a deal where you both get to pursue your goals. But if he keeps pushing against it, he obviously doesn't value your needs as much as his.

[Tully]

Nonie: Agreed on Gruve24's apparently misogynistic comments, but I don't think the gist he's getting at is entirely without merit. Allow me to paraphrase from where I sit:

People often fall into the trap of over-inflating a single relationship's importance. There are other men out there -- lots more that are just as good for you or maybe even better than this guy. If it comes down to a forced choice between your man and your art, pick your art and know that that choice will lead you to more people who are more in keeping with it in the future. Wouldn't it suck to choose him and then break up in a year or two?

But you don't seem to really specify in your posts exactly why you feel you need to choose. Is it just because you'd definitely have to move back in with your parents and be far away from each other? Is he comfortable with you pursuing the same goal of being a pro artist?

Not knowing this, it's difficult to give much advice. Generally, I'd say that if it's him forcing the choice then screw him and do the art. If he's really supportive of whatever you do and it's just circumstances, perhaps they're not insurmountable and a compromise can be reached. Just don't make big life decisions on his account unless he's made a similar show of commitment to you.

[N D Hill]

So wait. Moving back in with your parents is actually a viable option over supporting yourself and developing your portfolio? I would say that you are making your situation out to be too black and white when it's probably not. I certainly don't believe that your girlfriend actually presented you with an ultimatum like that.

Fact. A lot of us don't get art jobs right out of school.

Fact. We still have to eat and pay bills and that means we need full time jobs.

There are 168 hours in a week. You have to sleep for 56 of them. That leaves you with 112 and if you're like most people, you probably work for 40-50 hours a week. That still leaves you with well over 50 hours left to manage on your own. If creating art means staying a couple nights and devoting 16 hours on weekends as well, then you're still left with a pretty good deal.

I think the main problem here is that people don't realize that real life is what happens to you when you're waiting for bigger and better things (thank John Lennon for that quote).

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

I can't paint unless I'm in love really....oddly enough

and I can't be in love with a man or a woman if they don't like or support my art.

my great uncle Phil from California told me once that boys come a dime a dozen....hahahahahahaha

men are rare though. :(

I saw a neat job yesterday on craigslist that said it was ok to draw or sketch on the job within reason...maybe a job like that would be better than slaving for Macy's...retail corporations are the worst.

[nonie]

*sigh* It irks me that people keep assuming it's a girlfriend causing the problems... I know it's not the point of the thread at all but hey guys, read the posts. Girls post on this site too.

[~Faust~]

*sigh* It irks me that people keep assuming it's a girlfriend causing the problems... I know it's not the point of the thread at all but hey guys, read the posts. Girls post on this site too.

Upuntilnow, I was always assuming you were a guy for some reason... maybe a gender-button wouldn't be that bad, after all-

[Justice Von Brandt]

Her username and icon screamed girl to me

[nonie]

Upuntilnow, I was always assuming you were a guy for some reason... maybe a gender-button wouldn't be that bad, after all-

Heh, that's especially funny considering that I am rather quick to mention my gender because I know it's a common assumption. The only people that get pegged as girls have a picture of a girl for an avatar - including guys who do :P The internet is a funny place.

[Kamikazebob]

I like Mr. Hill's phrasing. Full time jobs pay bills and thats a lotta hours left open.

Also, Faust, you've never clicked the little linky to nonie's website? For shame. :P

[J Wilson]

I think I'm understanding her problem differently than many people are. It doesn't sound like it's her boyfriend making an ultimatum. It sounds like her choices are stay where she is, which requires a full time job which is difficult to juggle with spending time on art, or move back in with the parents which isn't close to her boyfriend.

I'd vote to not move back in with the parents, to keep working a full time job AND doing art. It's not easy always, but it's possible. It might be slower than moving back home and spending more time on art, but it might be more worthwhile in the long run. Feel free to take the promotion, but don't ever let it rule you or distract you from your true goal of art. If the job ends up taking up too much of your energy ditch it and look for something else.

Of course that is only going to work if the relationship AND the art are worth the struggle. That should answer itself when you decide that you can't give up either of them (or of you decide you can). It WILL likely be a struggle though, as art is an uphill battle that only the most persistant (or lucky) survive.

[~Faust~]

Also, Faust, you've never clicked the little linky to nonie's website? For shame. :P

Actually, I frequently visit her blog, but for some reason the name Winona didn't strike me as very feminine... Yeah, I should know better, I just don't care so much about issues like those I guess.

[Jason Rainville]

However, it is also the logical choice in terms of saving money, paying student loans at the moment.....and staying with my love. Who btw is also an artist struggling to find a voice in the industry.

If he can try to find a voice, why can't you? I know it's quite presumptuous on my part and I apologize if I'm waaaay of mark, but if the reason he's with you is because you have your fancy macy's job (or any high paying job), he uh.... how to put this... might not be worth the skin that he's wrapped in? Take another year at the job, save as much money as you possibly can, then take a part time job to help with money and focus the rest of your time on art.

My two cents.

EDIT: JR Wilson seems to have a more likely view on the subject.... heh, I like how the op doesn't want to discuss the hidden details, and all of a sudden we become Private eyes picking every detail apart....

[gruve24]

Men come and go like money...If your having a tough time deciding whether choosing your goals over being with 1 man, then your probably lacking confidence and using corny love cliches' to mask your fear of having to tackle reality/responsibility on your own.

Bottom line, make the choice that benefits you (not the choice that seems least scariest) !! Make the choice that you want and will make you happiest ! Men should NOT factor into the equation.

You need to ask yourself...do you have the courage to make the decisions that will truly make you happy, or will you be another sheep like the majority of people in this country who hate their lives and only live for weekends and vacation.

[Black Spot]

I work in a 9-5 job. It pays the bills and the mortgage. My husband was a musician and had a one hit wonder 79/80 and then nothing. Do I regret supporting him, having kids etc – hell no, but since I started sketching again recently I’ve started to grin a lot more - even during work.

Do what you have to, but don’t lose sight of who you are and why you are you

[nonie]

gruve24... you're just making it worse... changing "fear of not being able to get multiple women" when you thought the OP was a dude, to "fear of having to tackle responsibility on you own" when you switched the genders? What, women aren't responsible without their men? That little change implies so much about how low your opinion of women is.

[Peter Coene]

Despite what everyone here says I think that in the end it is up to you. I myself would never give up on art, and figure that if a girl were to give me that ultimatum I'd have to turn her down. But then again, it may just be that I have not yet met a woman that I love enough that I would sacrifice my chances at an art carrear for. Who knows, maybe I'll find that some day but untill then art is my love.

Back to you, what do you feel? Do you yove this person? Don't just say yes because you want to love him, because unless you really do you are spouting a load of bullshit which you yourself will choke on. If you really feel that your love is important enough to give up art for then do it. Otherwise learn to be lonely, because anyone who would ask you to choose between them and your own dreams doesn't deserve you.

[Mirana]

I actually just got offered a promotion yesterday, lol.......but at Macy's. As a Customer Service Lead Manager. I am already in training as a general store manager.

There is a compromise in this. Say "no" to the promotion (or others after that) if it cuts into your time to do art. Manager jobs are typically more hrs than a lead position, with top manager positions as salary which equates to "we own your soul 24/7 for unlimited hrs." If you are making do just fine on the current job then there's no need to go to the next level where you will be miserable.

My SO has a full-time manager position AND a part-time at-home job, but still makes time for art.


Women come and go like money...If your having a tough time deciding whether choosing your goals over being with 1 woman, then you probably don't have "game" and your using corny love cliches' to mask your desperation and lack of ability to get multiple women.

You are a moron. I hope you don't think your views of women make you cute and personable to the other men or women around here. Nonie is right--your edit didn't help either. A woman can't get "game?" Really? They can get called "s lut" and I'm pretty sure that's the same as "game." :rolleyes:

Upuntilnow, I was always assuming you were a guy for some reason... maybe a gender-button wouldn't be that bad, after all-

Why? What does gender matter? Does it make a difference now that you know she's a woman?

[serhc]

Why? What does gender matter? Does it make a difference now that you know she's a woman?

chiiiillllllllll my friend, let's not derail the thread now


v - sorry, i just assumed. it sounded accusatory to me after the response to gruvetwennyfour. damn internet
v

[Mirana]

serhc: Huh? I'm not mad at Faust...I was geniunely asking a question. I guess I should add more :D ?

Edit: No big. :)

[Charshie]

Hehe, didn't expect my question to get so much amazing input and perspectives as it did! Laughably perhaps, I am not upset really by the gender thing that was mentioned. Though perhaps clumsily put, he does have a point. So in answer to the remark about lacking confidence or whatever to be on my own -

I am an ex-s l ut. I am hot, what can I say. I love men, I love women, I love sex. I am a metalhead and from the age of 15 until about 18 lived a life few people have, ala Sunset Strip style. Was the pet groupie of a few bands, juggled a harem of men at any given time, and did more drugs and had more flings than some rock stars can boast of. I've often been called a man in girl's guise, in terms of my views and demeanor. Then I found my man. I hold no regret whatsoever about my past, but until that point hadn't found anyone I could tolerate to be a peer to my personality for more than a few months. It is 4 yrs later and I love him more than I ever did - yes real love, not the fluffy whimsical type. I've had that fluff and come to my senses, and dropped it like a bad habit. I want the *real thing* - I've had my fun and want a more lasting happiness.

NOW. As far as a decision......The Dweller pretty much read my mind and vocalized what I should already know. Yes moving back in with my parents would give me the time, focus and feeling of immediacy/desperation that I feel would spur me to give a good solid shot at making it in the art business. But that doesn't mean that I can't take the promotion, work my ass off in my spare time on art and stay local so I can continue living with my boyfriend. Will it be harder and perhaps a bit more of a wait for the big shiny art career I envision? Yeah. But my art and my man are the two things I love most in my life. Consumingly, overwhelmingly, obsessively so. And I don't feel I can give up either without torching my sanity.

So I talked things over with him, and I believe for now we have come to an understanding although there is an ultimadem of sorts. I have to give up a lot to stay here, and I am asking the same of him. (I know I am going to get flamed for this next part) He hasn't worked for....the duration of our relationship. He has used the time to greatly amp up his portfolio and now is at a point where its good enough to get him work, and he has done a few freelance things finally. Truthfully I have asked myself before as well if I am his *meal ticket*. I choose to believe otherwise and I hope he will prove otherwise. I took the Macy's job in the first place to get us by and need him to rise to the challenge and use this opportunity to REALLY try to make art his career and actively try to get work in the industry.

So I think I will stay at Macy's. I suppose I can quit just as soon tomorrow as in a few months when I have actually saved up enough to GO part time, like Dweller suggested. I just need to remind myself not to let art slip to the sidelines for me, when I DO believe I have the talent and personality to make it happen for myself. Hopefully my man will keep his end of the bargain. But I am willing to gamble on this, and make it happen. Where there's a will there's a way, right? :)

Thanks again guys.

[Blue]

Charshie, it sounds like you're in an interesting position (try not to be so.. *blunt* about yourself, subtlety would have done more then enough ;) ).

Being your man has *never* had a job while you were with him, it is only logical for him to be pushing you to perpetuate that nice lifestyle he has. Although I don't believe it is malicious it is only human nature to keep a good thing going. Don't sacrifice yourself for him, or him for yourself. A good relationship lets you have your cake and eat it too.

[gruve24]

Sounds like a Win / Win situation to me Charshie...but it is a huge mistake to have expectations of anyone, and you should really be careful just how absorbed you become with people (in fact you shouldn't become so emotionally attached to anyone to the point that your not strong enough to walk away from them at any given point in time).

Take that energy and focus it on yourself, trust me.

Truthfully I have asked myself before as well if I am his *meal ticket*. I choose to believe otherwise and I hope he will prove otherwise.don't ignore these feelings your having, they are warning signs and most likely accurate. I'd tell you to walk...but somehow I don't think that will happen, so, good luck.

p.s. theres nothing wrong with a woman who loves sex and men. I hope I get to meet more girls like you in my lifetime.

[Charshie]

Eh, shoud have clarified that he did have a very good job when we first met but we both quit or jobs at the time since we were full time in art college. So THAT I understand. I didn't have time for full time school and full time work then either. I just took up Macys to pay bills out of college, while attempting to do what I could to get the art job I desired in the meantime. He chose to focus solely on art, though the approach was more laid back than my personal tendencies. When I go for something, I GO for it and attack the hell out of every opportunity, lol.

So I guess that's what I meant to say regarding the career paths I have ahead of me. Wish I could focus on art with all the time and enthusiasm I want to rather than having to *make* time for it amidst the hours I work out of financial necessity.

(Edit) PS, Gruve, I can see where you are coming from but would just like to say while it is important to know and love yourself above everything else, you will also never be able to fully reap the benefits of happiness if you don't let down your walls sometimes. I am not saying *zomg soulmates relationships YAY!*, I just personally believe that walling off the bad shuts out the good as well. Maybe that's just my stance. I have been hurt before by being overly trusting and open, but the friends and people who I have gotten close to as a result are the best reward I could describe.

[Tony0930]

Maybe I can't give your any suggestion.
It is a qusetion we are or have been faced with, the choice depends what you want in future because someone really can not afford to live on "interest".
I think the only solution is to "make your interest your job".

[~Faust~]

You seem to be perceptive regarding your situation and know what you want. i guess it'll turn out fine then, I wish you the best of luck.

About your own career and breaking into the art- I guess you should go draw to get the skills and the confidence so you can effectively and faithfully promote yourself.

sorry to get off-topic, but @Mirana: As I stated, I generally really give a damn what gender lies behind those flickery letters here. In this case it just struck me how I was assuming a male entity behind Nonie and I was curious as how that came to place. I guess I can never really cut myrself free from gender-perceptions. Not that I wanted, though. I am still quite happy to be a man, after all.

EDIT: Sry Mirana :D

[Peter Coene]

Hmm, with your added input I say dump the guy AND keep your job. I'm not flaming you, if anything I'm flaming him. He has no right to ride on your ticket while trying to get his start. If anything give him the ultimatum of getting a job or living with his parents. In other words, if he is pressuring you throw the freeloader out.

[StarbonesCoffin]

If your lover cannot accept for who you are, the person is not for you if you believe in true love.If you want sex, go on.

[TASmith]

"I am an ex-s l ut. I am hot, what can I say. I love men, I love women, I love sex."

I like how this thread went from too little information to WAY too much information in just two pages. Can anyone tell me how that little tidbit is relevant? Internet these days...

Charshie, I can see how you want to stay with someone you love and all. Just remember, just because you love someone doesn't make them a good person. Make sure he supports you as much as you support him. At this point I really want to see both your and his art.

[Nuthien]

This is not fair for you. I think your boyfriend is being a lot selfish.

[Jason Rainville]

"I am an ex-s l ut. I am hot, what can I say. I love men, I love women, I love sex."

I like how this thread went from too little information to WAY too much information in just two pages.

Made me spit out my rice pudding :D

[J Wilson]

Charsie, with the added information you gave, why not a compromise? He gets a part time job, and you can cut hours and also get to pursue your art. You can pursue an art career with a full time job, so I KNOW he can do it with a part time job.

I've known men who didn't work while their girlfriends paid the bills, and I never respected any of them. I've liked some of them well enough, but not really respected. Is this guy working on art 12 hours a day every day? I rather doubt it. Even if he was, he could still fit in a twenty hour a week job easily. Even if you make plenty of money for the both of you, it's a matter of principle.

[Mirana]

@Miranda: As I stated, I generally really give a damn what gender lies behind those flickery letters here. In this case it just struck me how I was assuming a male entity behind Nonie and I was curious as how that came to place.

I'm assuming you mean "[DON'T] give a damn"? I think we all project ourselves into those sex/age/race-less letters of someone else. You might be less likely to do so if you aren't the "priveleged class" in the community, though. I was wondering if knowing gender (or other large identifiers) makes you (or anyone else--including me) act differently to the user or the art they make. :shrug:

(PS: Guess the user sub-title I use isn't helping people spell my name better... :P)

He has no right to ride on your ticket while trying to get his start.

That's easy to say without knowing him (or her), but think of how many people have supported you who weren't obligated to. Think of how many people you may have taken the time or money to help. My SO has two jobs while being an artist and I'm the freelancer. I make way more money at full-time freelance than I ever did at the day-job BUT it's unstable and we made the decision that he shouldn't do anything too drastic with his situation until I was a little more settled. If the situation were reversed I would certainly support him. It's tough to make it as an artist and anything that makes that easier is awesome.

EDIT: Is it fairer for a gal to ride on the coat tails of her man like was the stereotypical marriage of not-too-long-ago?

I like how this thread went from too little information to WAY too much information in just two pages. Can anyone tell me how that little tidbit is relevant? Internet these days...

'Cause it gives you insight into how much she trusts her mate and how informed she may be of her relationship (as opposed to a teenager with little-to-no relationship knowledge). Also negs gruve's "game" nonsense. I wonder if you'd make the same statement if it were a dude saying he was a player and now he's got the gal of his dreams... ;) (no sarcasm, only curiousity!)

[Ian Mack]

*sigh* It irks me that people keep assuming it's a girlfriend causing the problems... I know it's not the point of the thread at all but hey guys, read the posts. Girls post on this site too.

I think it's a rare thing for girl to come on and post problems about her lovelife in this forum. The opposite is much more common!


Can you earn enough money to live to the standard of life that you want with art? If you believe so then go out and chase it. From personal experience, I had to hit the parachute on a relationship where time spent drawing was considered "time away from her". combine that with a full time job and living with the person = a soul-sucking existence.

[Mirana]

I think it's a rare thing for girl to come on and post problems about her lovelife in this forum. The opposite is much more common!

That would be because the gals have their own forum to post it in. ;)

[nonie]

That would be because the gals have their own forum to post it in. ;)

Yeah so we can avoid reactions like gruve24's :P (And to a lesser extent, TASmith's - I wonder the same thing as Mirana, if you'd be complaining about TMI if it were a dude talking, or giving him a high five instead... I wanted to give her a high five anyway :P)

[Charshie]

So weird having so many voices chime in on my situation :) Well I took the promotion today. Starts officially on July 6th, and I am feeling pretty satisfied with my self-imposed balance I will be keeping regarding Macy's and applying myself to art as well. Hours will be kind of rough, since I will be working almost exclusively closing shifts now and won't be home till 11-12 on most nights. Oh well I can work late at night on art, or wake my butt up early to draw/paint.

I am totally laughing at how people are reacting to my candor as well. That's just who I am, lol. I am brash and outgoing and unapologetic! Whatever it works. There's a time and a place to be composed and professional - I should know, it's how I conduct myself at Macy's all day, and with my art! However I am happy as hell with myself, and don't feel like a few curse words or lewd comments speak negatively towards my integrity as a person. *Grin* I don't hold any sort of disdain for more *prude* or reserved people; and in turn they tend to treat me with the same respect. Everybody can do their own THANG! Whatever makes you happy ;)

Oh, TASmith, you said you wanted to see my art? Either click down from my name to my homepage, or go to www.ifreelance.com/pro/23851 to see some stuff. I also have a sketchbook I recently started on here. My man has a bit of work posted in the "Artists Looking for Work" board along with me, in the thread "Char and Jack".

Anyway this is longwinded, and I don't want to comment much on the whole working/supporting whom thing. It's a matter of differing views and I do like to maintain some privacy. I respect what my man is doing, the MAIN issue I wanted to address in the thread was more dealing with my career path since location would dictate how my relationship went. Macy's = staying with my man locally = not much time for art, and the opportunity of a readily available fallback career choice should I choose it. Art = far from my man, back with my parents, essentially terminating our relationship but allowing me to focus solely on art.

But all that doesn't matter much since I have made my decision and taken the promotion. Lalalala.

<3
Char

PS. Maybe I should bother to come say hi on vent n' talk about artsyness some time.

PPS. J. Wilson - yeah that's more or less the solution we came to as well. He'd give a hell of a shot at self-promotion and get more freelance jobs like he's been doing, see if it leads to a career, if that's not working get some stupid job to fill money gaps. I know he can do it though - he isn't the freeloading slacker that people seem to be envisioning him as or I would never have stayed this long :D Also, you think exactly like I do, its kind of scary. It's like my friend Mike. I call him "Char-with-a-penis".

[Peter Coene]

EDIT: Is it fairer for a gal to ride on the coat tails of her man like was the stereotypical marriage of not-too-long-ago?

That question is a trap, I'm not answering.

edit: The reason that I said what I did was not just because he is riding on her coattails. That is somewhat annoying but not really what bothers me. What does bother me is that he would try to force her to follow a certain carrear path so that he can keep his meal ticket.

[Mirana]

That question is a trap, I'm not answering.

Huh?? If it is, I didn't intend it. Explain?

Not that I'm a line-by-line reader, but I don't remember her ever saying he was coercing her into keeping her job to further his goals (or anything similar). That may be your inference.

[TASmith]

"I wonder if you'd make the same statement if it were a dude saying he was a player and now he's got the gal of his dreams..."

If a guy came on here and said how much he loves sex, I definately wouldn't want to hear about it. ;)

And I thought we were all supposed to ignore gruve's posts after realizing he hadn't even read the thread - no offense gruve.

EDIT: Char, nice art!

[Peter Coene]

EDIT: Is it fairer for a gal to ride on the coat tails of her man like was the stereotypical marriage of not-too-long-ago?
That question is a trap, I'm not answering.

Huh?? If it is, I didn't intend it. Explain?

If I say "yes" I am pegged for being a shovanist in that I'm claiming that men should be the bread-winners and women should stay in the kitchen. If I say "no" I'm pegged as pushing for men to be gigalos who take advantage of women. Its a lose-lose type of question that no man can safely answer; sort of like "does this dress make me look fat?" but even worse in that it carries socio-political implications and can piss off an entire gender and not just one woman.

[That fat kid]

It's chauvinist.

[DannySketch]

Gruve24 You are playing around with a philosophy here that I cannot help thinking you do not fully understand.

You are not unique in your pursuit of happiness. I promise you it is the one characteristic that you shall have in common with every other person who has ever lived. At some stage in human history our minds developed to such a complexity that the mere act of 'just surviving' no longer fit the bill. Happiness became our payoff for humoring life with the time it takes to breathe.

The question then becomes how best to go about it, one of the most obvious answers is the fulfillment of our base desires; 'sex, drugs and rock n roll' I believe is the favored term. These things trigger certain impulses in the brain that gives off happiness. The problem arises when you mistake their ability of giving happiness to that of maintaining it.

If you take a Class A drug everyday the most likely outcome is that the very act of taking it shall hinder your ability in getting it, and your pursuit for happiness has failed. If you have sex with, and then dispose of, a different women every day, without investing any time in the act of assisting them with their own pursuit, then you shall find a time in your life when women no longer wish to 'tap' that wrinkled old backside of yours, or indeed be near it in any sense. Unless of course your someone who wakes up in a dressing gown each morning and responds to the greeting of 'hello Mr Hefner'.

We are social creatures, positive interaction with other people is one major factor of our happiness. It is only logical then that it is worth investing time in a person, if only for the hope that they shall stick with you when any logical reason for doing so has long since past. It is about recognizing that your own pursuit is mirrored in another, and that it brings a certain joy in helping them, and being helped by them, with that pursuit.

And that, for whatever flaws it may show, is what I believe Love to be.

[Blue]

That would be because the gals have their own forum to post it in. ;)

AWE! You can't tell me about a secret forum and expect me not to get extremely curious... :(

[J Wilson]

PPS. J. Wilson - yeah that's more or less the solution we came to as well. He'd give a hell of a shot at self-promotion and get more freelance jobs like he's been doing, see if it leads to a career, if that's not working get some stupid job to fill money gaps. I know he can do it though - he isn't the freeloading slacker that people seem to be envisioning him as or I would never have stayed this long :D Also, you think exactly like I do, its kind of scary. It's like my friend Mike. I call him "Char-with-a-penis".

I think we have something in common in being pretty blunt or outspoken. I don't have a lot of use for being timid and not speaking my mind. It occassionally (rarely) gets me into trouble, if I allow myself to get too heated about an issue, but I prefer that to the nonsense many people go through. I also try very hard to not judge people's choices as long as they are being true to themselves. I enjoy blunt people as it leaves little room for misunderstanding, and I have a thick enough skin to take things for how they are meant even if mentioned bluntly.

[nonie]

Blue it's basically just like a smaller lounge... nothing that crazy, besides all the naked pillowfights.

[Peter Coene]

besides all the naked pillowfights.
...I don't mind playing the younger brother who gets tricked into walking in on his sister's slumber party and used for... wait, better stop myself there before the girls realise that some guys like being treated like that...

[Blue]

Blue it's basically just like a smaller lounge... nothing that crazy, besides all the naked pillowfights.

Awe... :(

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

and the porn

godamn there is so much porn there

[Blue]

I hate you guys *sniff*

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

rofl sorry

[Kaledrub]

Love won't put food on your table.
Sometimes not even Art.

I'm such a mess today...

[Mirana]

If I say "yes" I am pegged for being a shovanist

Mmm, that's not really how I meant the question...sorry. I meant to point out that women being "provided for" seems to be acceptable to society while the reverse situation is seen as deadbeat. I sorta wanted to sus out the nusances of those situations... Like is it only okay if the man is playing "mister mom" or do the children mom is taking care of count as a "dream/work." I didn't mean it in a femme-nazi way. It was supposed to be a discussion starter, but off-topic certainly so I'll drop it.

AWE! You can't tell me about a secret forum and expect me not to get extremely curious... :(

:shrug: I don't post there so I can't tell you. Like you need another forum to waste time in...heehee. :P

Love won't put food on your table.

Usually he does...I hate cooking. Love sorta makes the food taste better too. :)

[gruve24]

hello, DannySketch

If you have sex with, and then dispose of, a different women every day, without investing any time in the act of assisting them with their own pursuit, then you shall find a time in your life when women no longer wish to 'tap' that wrinkled old backside of yours, or indeed be near it in any sense.You are looking at the glass half empty my friend. I take care of my body and will out live most people my age. Not only will I out live them I will look, feel and function better than they will. There will come a point when my body gives out and I will lose all of my hard work but I will still be in much better shape that a majority of women as well as men. Now in my 20's I can have ANY woman I want, this will continue into my 50's and beyond. As long as I continue to take care of my physical health my mental health and my finances there will ALWAYS be an attractive woman to sleep with.

For your information I invest a great deal of emotion and care with women I'm intimate with, but I will NEVER MARRY or allow any of them to MOVE IN with me. I'm all for relationships, just so long as a woman can respect how I feel, if she can't accept that, I will enjoy things for what they are.

We are social creatures, positive interaction with other people is one major factor of our happiness. It is only logical then that it is worth investing time in a person,Agreed ! but I'm not affraid of being alone. Despite how I might come off in the forums I'm actually a great guy and I have great friends who reflect the kind of person I am, for this very reason I'm not concerned about having a woman there for me for support. If I didn't have my friends, I'd feel depressed, but it would not stop me from achieving the things in life that make me happy.

[Mirana]

Now in my 20's I can have ANY woman I want, this will continue into my 50's and beyond.

. . . HA! *snerk* Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Heeheehee...

Cant. Stop. LAUGHING.

[sve]

hello, DannySketch

I'm actually a great guy

And very modest too :). It's nice to have a great imagination.

[That fat kid]

I hope Hell exists.

[Elwell]

You are looking at the glass half empty my friend. I take care of my body and will out live most people my age. Not only will I out live them I will look, feel and function better than they will. There will come a point when my body gives out and I will lose all of my hard work but I will still be in much better shape that a majority of women as well as men. Now in my 20's I can have ANY woman I want, this will continue into my 50's and beyond. As long as I continue to take care of my physical health my mental health and my finances there will ALWAYS be an attractive woman to sleep with.

I hope you get hit by a bus.

[Steph Laberis]

I hope you get hit by a bus.

Why hasn't he been banned yet? Seriously, I hoped he was a troll but I can't see how someone making such inflammatory remarks about women (who, last time I checked, are fairly respected members of CA) could stick around this long.

[donkeyslayer]

\
You are looking at the glass half empty my friend. I take care of my body and will out live most people my age. Not only will I out live them I will look, feel and function better than they will. There will come a point when my body gives out and I will lose all of my hard work but I will still be in much better shape that a majority of women as well as men. Now in my 20's I can have ANY woman I want, this will continue into my 50's and beyond. As long as I continue to take care of my physical health my mental health and my finances there will ALWAYS be an attractive woman to sleep with.

isn't everyone from Jersey a gaping asshole?

[~Faust~]

Now in my 20's I can have ANY woman I want, this will continue into my 50's and beyond.

I believe you. Thankfully, my taste isn't that exquisite so we won't get into each others way here and it is less likely for me to ever meet you in person.

[TASmith]

There's also a question of what type of girl might be attracted to you. Did you ever see that movie, What Women Want? When Mel reads the thoughts of his two secretaries, there's literally nothing there.

[enrigo]

lol, this thread is awesome :harbl:

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

he's disgusting, jabba the hutt is sexier

[sve]

I'm sorry to preaching to adult people, but wishing someone was hit by bus is a very bad, morbid thing, even if you mean it just as an expression. Just imagine the consequences: gruve is dead or invalid, bus driver goes to jail or in trouble, passengers are possible injured.
Gruve honestly thinks he is irresistible, other people with their own egos will correct this delusion. Inevitably, I'm sure of it.

[Elwell]

I think I have a realistic sense of my influence in the universe. Wishing Gruve gets hit by an imaginary bus will have exactly zero impact on his life or physical well being, much less that of the imaginary bus driver and imaginary passengers. He's a big boy, he can take it.

I, to, am actually a great guy. I must be, because I said it.

[jrr]

...serves me right clicking on a thread that says art vs love.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/world/europe/25virgins.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=d833642273af8046&ex=1215144000&emc=eta1

[sve]

Realistically if you say 400 times to a talented person that he/she is a mediocrity, he/syhe with a very high possibility will believe in it. And then you can change it to the opposite and again and again, playing with him like a cat with a half breathing mouse. I bet it can be done with you despite that you are a great guy objectively.
Words have an interesting ability to get under our skin and act from inside like a poison. Interesting that flatter can have the same destructive effects as belittling or wishing death to someone.
And more of it believers think even more about effects of simple words than atheist, just because of the nature of their philosophy : they believe in power of not material things. Bad karma.

[Peter Coene]

...serves me right clicking on a thread that says art vs love.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/world/europe/25virgins.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=d833642273af8046&ex=1215144000&emc=eta1

Wow, that is an amazing artical! Its too bad that cultures like that are all becoming modernified.

[sve]

Heh, thanks, that's a very funny in a way article. Roof-shaking, sad too, but funny in the same time.. What a mess in those women heads.

[Elwell]

Albania is one of the strangest places in the world.

[Dirty C]

So getting back to the point here, I think that you're probably making a decent decision.

Art is a full time mistress and you need to throw your life at it. If you have to pay the bills, then the best you can hope for is a job you don't want to go anywhere. I used to have a job I loved which paid really well, which is why it took nearly ten years to get out of it and get into art (hence the age gap between me and most of the people in the Atelier). That made life really hard.

Jedmo at the atelier has a great setup. He's got a kinda McJob which he's happy about, provides him with a great social life and has zero importance in any sort of career for him. But it's enough that he can pay his bills and probably survive for some years as a painter while he tries to break through. And nobody would ever describe him as anything but an artist.

Of course if your dude gets a job which pays well enough, he better be supportive if you decide you want to take time out and push yourself. And the great part is that he'll be able to help you a lot once he's actually doing it for a living.

[gruve24]

I, to, am actually a great guy. I must be, because I said it.great people don't wish harm and misfortune on others.

Why hasn't he been banned yet? Seriously, I hoped he was a troll but I can't see how someone making such inflammatory remarks about womenwhat inflammatory remarks about women are you taking about ?? Why do you not think I respect women ??

[Elwell]

So getting back to the point here,

How DARE you, sir! We want to talk about karma and Albanians!

[Ilaekae]

...hmmmm?

Sorry...I was distracted...what were we talking about?

[Fritz-ophrenic]

shouldn't she/he accept you if it really is "love"?

[Sinix]

I think you should stick with art. Culinary art that is. Better shape up and fly right or you'll never land a real man like gruve. All you flabby haters are just jealous.

PtVhLU6A664

[enrigo]

That video reminds me of sociology class when the teacher separates male and female students and have them write down stereotypes about the opposite sex. The female students' reaction when hearing that "girls have small brains" is fucking hilarious. I bet the teacher wouldn't ever put all male students together in a group again.

[Blue]

great people don't wish harm and misfortune on others.

I find it difficult to believe any definition of a "Great Person" coming from that of a Vain person. Actually, one could argue that being vain, makes you anything but "great". For all your self indulgence within this thread you display a great lack humility, a quality of a truly great person.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

hello, DannySketch

You are looking at the glass half empty my friend. I take care of my body and will out live most people my age. Not only will I out live them I will look, feel and function better than they will. There will come a point when my body gives out and I will lose all of my hard work but I will still be in much better shape that a majority of women as well as men. Now in my 20's I can have ANY woman I want, this will continue into my 50's and beyond. As long as I continue to take care of my physical health my mental health and my finances there will ALWAYS be an attractive woman to sleep with.

For your information I invest a great deal of emotion and care with women I'm intimate with, but I will NEVER MARRY or allow any of them to MOVE IN with me. I'm all for relationships, just so long as a woman can respect how I feel, if she can't accept that, I will enjoy things for what they are.

Agreed ! but I'm not affraid of being alone. Despite how I might come off in the forums I'm actually a great guy and I have great friends who reflect the kind of person I am, for this very reason I'm not concerned about having a woman there for me for support. If I didn't have my friends, I'd feel depressed, but it would not stop me from achieving the things in life that make me happy.

Dude I found your message on holy taco! I'm so sorry I deleted it!

http://www.holytaco.com/2008/06/27/the-douchiest-phone-message-in-history/

[nonie]

Dude I found your message on holy taco! I'm so sorry I deleted it!

http://www.holytaco.com/2008/06/27/the-douchiest-phone-message-in-history/

HAHAHHHHAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!! That was AWESOME!

[eskanto]

This is why Gruve24 gets all the girls.

DarxCXq206o

[Alday.J]

Whoa ! Seems like some dudes put their "I'm a MAN" costume. Sorry guys, but today is not Haloween ! ;)

Naomi, I can't pretend bring you an awnser with that post, I will just wish you good luck. Bonne chance !

[Peter Coene]

great people don't wish harm and misfortune on others.
what a bunch of PC bullshit.

"The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
-Gen. George S. Patton

"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the Attack."
-Sun Tzu

"May the grass wither from thy feet; the woods deny thee shelter! earth a home! the dust a grave! the sun his light! and heaven her God!"
-Lord Byron

"Let me go to hell, that's all I ask, and go on cursing them there, and them look down and hear me, that might take some of the shine off their bliss."
-Samuel Beckett



(this one isn't exactly relevant, but I love it none-the-less)
"Those who hate most fervently must have once loved deeply; those who want to deny the world must have once embraced what they now set on fire."
-Kurt Tucholsky

[BuckWeisel]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/e/e0/OrigCash.jpg

My name is gruve24, and I hate every single one of you...

[Dan!]

women..know your limits
_lrJg8NMsFw

[Ilaekae]

The greatest impact of the internet on the world is not the accessibility to information as never before, but the fact that it mysteriously allowed the penis of many higher primates to begin to speak and express opinions, even though science has never been able to find a single brain cell below the approximate level of the Adam's apple.




:P

[nonie]

Hey, don't blame the penis either. I know a lot of guys who are afflicted with them and are just fine. Gruve has no excuse at all.

[sve]

I don't mean anyone personally, but in my opinion it goes like this:
First wishing someone to be hit by the bus, then urinating on the floor standing near the toilet, and then back to the trees, hanging around the foliage, eating bananas, throwing banana peel on the people's heads. Ooh-ooh ah-ah!

[alesoun]

Gruve is just a sweet, fluffy pink kitten. I know my place (can't quite find it on the map, though....)

[Steph Laberis]

Groan...

If the thread's not going to go back on topic, I'm gonna close it. I think Gruve just likes this extra attention anyway.

Last chance to get it back on topic guys...

[sve]

Well, I would say gruve has his own issues, you have another and I have third. We all need to watch ourselves :). You should tell me about mine, it is only fair... other wise we will end up running around on our four.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

I want to convert to lesbianism and live in Amazonia after this thread....

[Peter Coene]

I want to convert to lesbianism and live in Amazonia after this thread....
I keep wanting to do that too, but everyone tells me I'm not qualified... :P

[sve]

Some pathetic 24000 dollars for operation and you are on your way to brand new life in brand new place.

[Peter Coene]

Some pathetic 24000 dollars for operation and you are on your way to brand new life in brand new place.
A few reasons not to

1. I like my boy bits.
2. I'd still be going after girls anyways, so theres no real point to it (other than the type of girls I could get, and even they would probably loose interest if they felt that I was a surgically deformed male)
3. The new bits after that type of opperation usually have no sensitivity, so even the curriosity as to what it might be like from the other gender's point of view will not receive a satisfactory answer.
4. If I had that type of cash I'd buy a car or make a downpayment on a house or spend it on something else that is worthwhile.
5. I like my boy bits
6. ew
7. You know those people who get a tattoo or weird peircing when they are drunk then regret it for the rest of their lives? That... but worse.
8. Did I mention I like my boy bits?
9. I'd constantly be questioning whether they count as "moobs"
10. Knowing my luck, some dude like me would start hitting on me.

[sve]

Well, then keep telling to yourself : "I'm a boy, I'm a boy"... like Jack Lemmon in "Some like it hot" movie.
But, people are right, you are not qualified, too much thinking and analyzing, you need to close your eyes and jump...

[Mirana]

1. I like my boy bits.

Good to know. 'Course you realize no one said you'd have to get rid of them... :P

[Peter Coene]

Good to know. 'Course you realize no one said you'd have to get rid of them... :P
That type of opperation sort of slits them open and shoves them up inside if I remember correctly. I like them too much to let anything like that happen to them.