Tips on clothing folds? (NSFW)

[Bladyle]

I was wondering if you guys had any tips for clothing folds - they're one of many things I have to work on. What would you suggest I do to improve?

[Stoat]

Oof! Not much beats direct observation. Though sometimes it's easier to see forms in somebody else'd drawings. I think the old masters had a system of descriptive names for different kinds of folds.

I just did a Google images search of "old masters" and "drapery" (and turned up a lot of good images -- try that) and accidentally found they've put the complete works of Dante Gabriel Rosetti (http://www.rossettiarchive.org/browser.html) online. How 'bout that?

[Craig D]

This should help a bit

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14739

[Ilaekae]

I'm going to get a lot of flaming hell for this, if not lynched, BUT...

One place to see fabric on bodies without complications in the way is to check out a few of the better manga artists.

Go to 4chan...

Removed by Ilaekae so as not to subvert young or impressionable minds.

and look under "Anime & Manga" and "Anime/Wallpaper" under Japanese Culture, or under "Ecchi," "Yuri," or "Hentai" under Adult (18+).

These guys (4chan) are porn clowns with no redeeming value, but they post massive amounts of pics they steal from other websites, many of which are actually beautifully done as far as drapery and costuming are concerned. Learn from the enemy, Bro. You can see how the folds are in the simplified manga style, and hopefully can translate them over to your own approach.

Remember to click the "Reply" at the top of the post intro to see everything in that post.

These nine examples took me 15 minutes to find. Hope nobody is offended...


ADD: I've re-upped the originals. Anyone who's offended by the fact that 51%+ of the population has breasts, please get out of art and take up cooking for a living...

[s.ketch]

Ilaekae on my 4chan? Its more likely than you think.

here you go, a drapery tutorial (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14739)

[drd]

Haha, I never imagined Ilaekae on 4chan.

4chan is great for just fucking around when you're bored, but sometimes the stuff people throw around there is really, really nice artistically (while sometimes being pretty erotic ;) )

I can really appreciate some of it, and it's really aesthetically pleasing.

[Elwell]

These guys (4chan) are porn clowns with no redeeming value...
Something about pots and kettles come to mind...;)

[Mirana]

and look under "Anime & Manga" and "Anime/Wallpaper" under Japanese Culture, or under "Ecchi," "Yuri," or "Hentai" under Adult (18+).


L. O. L!! When I took a study trip to Tokyo a yr ago I spent a lot of time in bookstores with two of my profs. One prof was a young, male, new father who taught animation and comics--the other was a 50ish grandma who taught fashion. As you might know, most book/comic stores in Akihabara have a porn level. The first one we walked into my male prof scurried back to the stairs and demanded we leave. The fashion prof took one look at a huge hentai poster and got angry. Not because it was porn.

"My students can't draw like THIS! I need to be harder on them so they'll learn to draw! LOOK at these folds!!" Then she took photos for reference! The other patrons didn't even look up. My male prof was mortified. Though less than he was a couple stores later when I caught him going through stacks of doujin and having to tell him...Yes, it's all porn on this level. No, really. And it's used. :D

Bladyle: Try Hogarth. (http://www.amazon.com/Dynamic-Wrinkles-Drapery-Solutions-Practical/dp/0823015874/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214191404&sr=8-1)

[drd]

"My students can't draw like THIS! I need to be harder on them so they'll learn to draw! LOOK at these folds!!" Then she took photos for reference! The other patrons didn't even look up. My male prof was mortified. Though less than he was a couple stores later when I caught him going through stacks of doujin and having to tell him...Yes, it's all porn on this level. No, really. And it's used. :D



Hahah, used hentai mangas...wonder what's been blotted off of those pages...:D

[kev ferrara]

Dean Cornwell on Drapery: Drapery reveals form. Cornwell was particularly concerned with the importance of drapery in depicting the human figure and devoted an entire evening's session to it as part of his annual lecture series at the Art Students League. Clothing of either men or women was supposed to reveal the figure beneath it and folds of the material were useful in defining the action. He also stressed the difference between folds and wrinkles. As defined by Cornwell, a fold was created by the cut and weight of the material in response to the position of the figure beneath. A wrinkle was an accidental crease in the material having no relationship to the action or underlying figure and should be eliminated as an extraneous and confusing detail. Although folds are predictable, their variety is also infinite and cornwell always perferred to get his facts from the posed model rather than inventing them. For instance, he did a lot of costume pictures and when men's tights were called for, he would pose his model's in long johns. The key to the problem was in selection, making use of a pattern of folds that would enhance the desired action. This might require the model's repeated bending of a knee or an arm until the right fold emerged. Sometimes nature needed an assist from strategically placed clothespins. (Step by Step graphics, vol 3. no. 3)

Also see The Famous Artists course bits on drapery, which are very good. (Of course, The Famous Artists course books are good on anything, so they're always worth tracking down. There are some online too.)

Best
kev

[drd]

"4chan is great for just fucking around when you're bored, but sometimes the stuff people throw around there is really, really nice artistically (while sometimes being pretty erotic )

I can really appreciate some of it, and it's really aesthetically pleasing."

drd...IT'S FUCKIN' PORN! Porn is your friend if it has what you need, and what we needed here was fabric folds. That's why we didn't go to an auto detailing forum. The boobs and general drippy sex are just icing on the cake... :P

What's strange is sometimes I forget that it is porn. Some of that stuff is amazingly well-done. I'll just be staring at the brushstrokes on a foot or something. And clothing folds, of course. :P

[Sir_E_Pent]

This book gives you all the classic fold design. More for evening gowns and togas. But, if you can master the classics, you can master anything.

[waranghira]

Go to 4chan...

http://www.4chan.org/


whatever happened to Rules 1 & 2?

and doesn't CA have a policy regarding of linking to sites with porn content?

[drd]

whatever happened to Rules 1 & 2?

and doesn't CA have a policy regarding of linking to sites with porn content?

Rules 1 and 2 : NEVER talk about /b/.

They say nothing about 4chan itself.

[dose]

Can we get a NSFW up on this bizness?

[dbclemons]

This fellow was thoughtful enough to scan the material from the Famous Artists Course on folds and drapery. That info is about as good as it gets.

http://sevencamels.blogspot.com/search/label/Famous%20Artist%20Course
.

[Ilaekae]

I modified my post to confirm to as many suggestions as I could to uphold the forum's decorum. If anyone spots any additional problems, please let me know.

[Mirana]

to uphold the forum's decorum.

Waitwhat? We have one of those? :P And we have a rule against linking to porn? Spamming yes, but porn? I am out of the loop.

[Anid Maro]

Waitwhat? We have one of those? :P And we have a rule against linking to porn? Spamming yes, but porn? I am out of the loop.

Yeah, I'm lost too. I thought this was the same place that had a ten page thread about "artistic porn" with pics included (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=94224). If I'm in the wrong place please let me know, I want to go back. :)

[Ashtonw]

I modified my post to confirm to as many suggestions as I could to uphold the forum's decorum. If anyone spots any additional problems, please let me know.

Could you modify my memory too? The image of two little girls licking each other's tongues is still there.

[~Faust~]

Censorship? NoooooooooooooooooooooooooO!

And a special thanks for Ilaekae For the wonderful link to 4chan! I didn't know about this place before and now, it's pure awesome!

http://orz.4chan.org/d/src/1214093634736.jpg

[Farvus]

I learned a bit from here. Website translator from Japanese didn't give much but those drawings explain enough to me.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zm5s-nkmr/hitoFiles/clothestop.html

[drd]

Censorship? NoooooooooooooooooooooooooO!

And a special thanks for Ilaekae For the wonderful link to 4chan! I didn't know about this place before and now, it's pure awesome!

http://orz.4chan.org/d/src/1214093634736.jpg

Great Ilaekae, now look what you've done. ;)

[Chris Bennett]

My tutor once told me, when I was asking about the problem of drawing the changes in the models hair from sitting to sitting; "Remember that it always grows out of the same head".
This was fantastic advice and it has put me in good stead ever since.
The same thing applies to drapery, the model will lie on the bed and the folds in the sheet and cloths are different every time - but it is the same matress, same model and the same pose seen from the same place. Drapery is the hand-maiden to form.
I work a lot from my imagination and when it comes to 'drapery' I find that there is a logic of folds that obeys a logic of form underneath. You are really drawing that 'logic' rather than the folds, but in doing so the folds appear. It's the same thing as painting chrome - you don't paint the chrome you paint the reflection in the chrome.

[Musselfarmstudios]

I know this is off subject . . . but what does NSFW stand for? . . . I'm new to this posting jargen . . . thanks

[Chris Bennett]

Not Safe For Work.....I think.

[Elwell]

It almost always takes less time to google/wiki something yourself than to post and wait for an answer...

[Musselfarmstudios]

It almost always takes less time to google/wiki something yourself than to post and wait for an answer...

your right . . . just wasn't thinking is all . . . what actually determines what gets a tag like this?

[Ilaekae]

Anything that at least one person objects to, unless it's about religion, politics, or race.

[Flake]

Anything that might have the sysadmin in an average office job look at you funny and have a quiet word over lunch..

If in doubt, bung a NSFW(Boobs) tag on, just to be on the safer side.

[Mirana]

Anything that at least one person objects to, unless it's about religion, politics, or race.


Hahaha. Personally I've always thought the "NSFW" tag was a bit lame. One would assume you'd be surfing at work because you were allowed to or on break. After that I think we should all be mature enough to own up to what we enjoy reading/doing or else leave it until you get home.

Musselfarmstudios: Eh, I'd say 95% of the time it gets put on a porn or nudity thread. 5% a video with language. Usually anything else that's "objectionable" is not an image/video and thus not easy to spot by nosy co-workers.

[s.ketch]

Black boxes and censorship offends me, will someone please accommodate my delicate sensibilities?

[Blue]

It almost always takes less time to google/wiki something yourself than to post and wait for an answer...

Yea, but sometimes it takes someone smarter then you to tell you the same thing you could have found yourself, for you to actually believe it. :)

[Flake]

Well, I'm going to cry. Probably.

[Ilaekae]

Changed back to the originals by request...

[Meli Hitchcock]

Hahaha. Personally I've always thought the "NSFW" tag was a bit lame. One would assume you'd be surfing at work because you were allowed to or on break.

Most companies do limit how much internet time their slaves... er employees use. And most monitor that and the links people go to. Cooperate already had one email make rounds telling us that internet use isn't for porn. I'm sure many, if not every company, has this same policy.

And no, the NSFW warning isn't lame. If you work out of your house and use your own computer, I understand why you'd think it is. But people like me who like to spend time browsing this place on lunch don't like to be greeted by anime chicks drooling all over each other like dogs while rubbing their tits together. Not when I was hoping for some good tips on on clothing folds.

Don't get me wrong, I like my porn, don't mind boobs, dicks, balls, vags when it comes to surfing on my own computer. But at work it's entirely different. I could get fired for looking at that stuff when it's completely unintentional. So warnings are wonderful (even the nudity warnings). It helps me avoid getting into trouble or potentially fired.

Usually anything else that's "objectionable" is not an image/video and thus not easy to spot by nosy co-workers.

No it's not the nosy co-workers... it's the IT guys that also check and monitor links of websites that people access.

Kind of begs the question just why they haven't blocked CA or DA yet with some nudity or flat out porn that has popped up on my computer. :P

[Izi]

speed up the revolution

[HunterKiller_]

I like where this thread went. *bump*

[Mirana]

Meli_Hitchcock: Except that CA is a place where nudity (among other "taboo subjects") is prevalent and a lot of people consider that "porn" no matter what the context (just ask photobucket). If my company found porn objectable then CA wouldn't be on my "work-surf" list b/c who knows what corporate moron makes the rules on acceptable. Hell, I didn't even ever use the work phonelines for personal calls because of all the crap corps think they can get away with invading so I definately wouldn't be surfing my EMAIL where others were recording, let alone semi-objectionable sites. To that end the "NSFW" tag is lame in my book--go all the way or don't at all.

[Jie Kageshinzo]

Can someone confirm if the seventh image down is done by Tony Taka? I seem to know his style everywhere.

[Ilaekae]

The little "tongue-ers" is definitely Tony Taka. Sitting down for a few hours of careful study with a couple of his "art books" is an education in itself.

[Jie Kageshinzo]

I knew it. I wonder if anyone out there knows the set where that came from. For, you know, educational purposes. Like learning how I can draw folds or something.

[Ilaekae]

I'll see if I can find out...for...y'know...educashional perpuzez... (pretty sure it's one of the older sets...)

[Jie Kageshinzo]

That'd be great. I was looking for it a while ago and while I did find some of his other works, that particular piece has eluded me. I saved some of his works tho.

For educational purposes.

[Alaies]

I was wondering if you guys had any tips for clothing folds - they're one of many things I have to work on. What would you suggest I do to improve?

I would recommend the book, "Drawing People" by Barbara Bradley. At least read the clothing section at Borders or BN if can't spare the cash. It explains how cloth folds are formed, making them easier to draw from life, and eventually imagination.

However, I would recommend against using anime and manga art for reference. They tend to be stylized according to the artist, and won't really boost your knowledge of how clothing works. It didn't help me, anyway. You're better off copying old masters or simply just hanging a blanket on the wall.

A simple overall tip I can give though is that for each hard edge of a fold, it usually ends with a gradual shade if it's not interrupted. So:

Hard edge - highlight - shade/tone

GL

[Ilaekae]

Alaies, I stopped doing this because it just turns into a colossal waste of time with repetitive posts and a lot of arguments, but I cant let this one go without saying at least something...

The following is from my post (#4)...I added the BF...

"One place to see fabric on bodies without complications in the way is to check out a few of the better manga artists."

"...many of which are actually beautifully done as far as drapery and costuming are concerned. ... You can see how the folds are in the simplified manga style, and hopefully can translate them over to your own approach."

I'm the only person who posted anything referring to mangakas/manga art, so I'm guessing your comment below was inspired by my post...

"However, I would recommend against using anime and manga art for reference. They tend to be stylized according to the artist, and won't really boost your knowledge of how clothing works. It didn't help me, anyway. You're better off copying old masters or simply just hanging a blanket on the wall."

First off, I have a right to an opinion. I stated mine, and to back it up, posted 9 examples that i thought would be typical of the genera that could possibly be useful. I would like you to note that nowhere--NOWHERE--did I use the word "anime." And for obvious reasons.... Only an idiot would use anime (a hyper-simplified style of drawing done for animation) as a reference for detailing. I am not an idiot. I also said specifically "better manga artists." I'm fairly certain that was at least a bit selective. (If it wasn't clear enough, please let me know and I'll try to rephrase it).

So please do NOT turn my statement 180° and put words in my mouth. It's one of the few things that truly make me lose my temper. Instead, I suggest you fuckin' learn to read AND understand simple English before deeming what I wrote "bullshit" for all intents and purposes.

NOW...

Please note that you also have a right to an opinion, which you expressed (in the process twisting what I said to shit, but you did express it.). You object to my suggestion because the clothing would tend "to be stylized according to the artist," then move on to suggest "copying old masters." It's a good suggestion, but I do have a few problems with it in the context of my and your posts.

I gather from this, since you posted no examples of what specifically you were referring to, that all or some of the following are implied/indicated/assumed by your statement...

• Without any other specificity, I assume "Old masters" are only relevant as reference for clothing folds (or whatever) if they are from Europe/North America.

• Or maybe it's a given and there are no "Old Masters" outside of those two areas, obviously ruling out the other 2/5-3/5ths of the world, for example.

• We are to assume all artists OUTSIDE the European/North American area of influence always stylize their material, so they can't be trusted as reference. This, of course, would never happen with "true old masters."

• Or, possibly, we should assume western artists NEVER stylize their output at all, since we all know how difficult it is to tell all those "real western old masters" apart. Just ask anybody.

• your statement is "incomplete," because I apparently don't have the same frame of reference you do. I know a number of "western old masters" (they're real "old masters"--I know because they're all white guys in funny clothes) who were so bad with fabric and drapery that they couldn't paint a believable one-color rug flat on the floor. Maybe you could be a bit more specific for those of us whose world is a bit more extended?

Alaies, I don't know you and you don't know me. Let's agree to have and express opinions, even when we differ. But next time, let's try and do it without twisting my opinion into something it wasn't. I'll do the same for you.

[Ashtonw]

Years ago I saw this image, or one like it and I was all "ooo so pretty." But I eventually went through an anime sucks and people who watch it are losers phase. I still had room in my heart for manga, but because of my dislike of anime I was prejudiced against it. There were aspects of certain styles I could appreciate, but I never considered that the art might be, you know.... good. Until now.

So thank you Ilaekae! I am going to go take a second look at my manga collection.

398496

[Alaies]

@Ilaekae

I didn't read your posts, I only saw the OP's question, and when I scrolled down quickly, I only saw various anime/manga/CG pics. Personal feelings aside, if you want to cite those references, that is ultimately your decision.

I won't deny I felt compelled to comment because of it, however. I used to use manga and anime CG's for reference when I was younger, and it didn't really help me understand fold construction - it only helped me fake the appearance of correct folds. Now, if you (or any artist) feels they can benefit from these styles, they are welcome to it.

But, I still remember trying to put together all different types of manga/anime reference for a character piece just to do simple tubular and drape folds. It was incredibly difficult, and stymied my progress.

[kev ferrara]

There's something about this thread that reminds me of asking for directions in the Bronx. The people who are most eager to help are always the most clueless and get you the most lost.

I would advise against learning from such stylized sources as manga/anime or cartoony cartoonists. Drawing from life is your first directive, using instructional material (7 folds, Famous Artist's course info, Bridgman's book on drapery, etc.) and looking at true masters of drapery to see how they did it (From the Old Masters to the Great Illustrators of the 20th century). After learning the real form of folds and drapery, then you can stylize it if you want.

[bhanu]

CA is a place where nudity (among other "taboo subjects") is prevalent and a lot of people consider that "porn" no matter what the context (just ask photobucket).
GOD BLESS CA....where would I be without you


Man I'd like to see where this thread going btw....I love you kev and ilaekae...

[Ilaekae]

Alaies, I actually agree with you TO A POINT. Trying to gather reference from bad sources is nearly impossible. The problem we had just now is that you didn't READ my post before reacting to what I was trying to say, which puts you in the same boat with a lot of other people here. We got no problems. My point was not manga vs western, it was bad ref against good, and NOT ONE single person mentioned it was just as stupid to use Marvel comics as a source for reference on clothing folds. I find that a bit close-minded (for want of a less offensive term). There are great artists with a great deal of knowledge to glean from in ALL fields and cultures, not just ONE.

And Kev, thank you for repeating exactly the same things that pissed me off in the first place. As I said before, only an idiot would mention ANIME (and your addition of cartoons) as a proper reference, but that wouldn't matter to you because you have to make a point, and stating it (again) simply implies that I actually said it in the first place. I knew I could count on you to further the cause of clarity, truth, justice, and the Amurikan way... :\

[VulgarDragon]

I can't access this site from my work anyway....they have it blocked :( Well, anyway I think NSFW labeling is a good idea because I have kids at home, and I don't really want to accidentally have a picture of naked big titted women in sexually proactive positions pop up on my screen while my kids are watching.

Anyway, I think the best sources to draw from are from fashion magazines and the early 19th and 20th century illustrations. Also Burne Hogarth's Dynamic Wrinkles and Drapes (http://www.amazon.com/Dynamic-Wrinkles-Drapery-Solutions-Practical/dp/0823015874/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214413316&sr=8-1) is a good book to learn how to draw wrinkles.

[s.ketch]

No matter how many times I read this thread, I cannot find where someone said "use manga and anime as reference for clothing and drapery." Its like people are arguing with a wall.

[kev ferrara]

And Kev, thank you for repeating exactly the same things that pissed me off in the first place. As I said before, only an idiot would mention ANIME (and your addition of cartoons) as a proper reference, but that wouldn't matter to you because you have to make a point, and stating it (again) simply implies that I actually said it in the first place. I knew I could count on you to further the cause of clarity, truth, justice, and the Amurikan way... :\

Newsflash, genius... this thread ain't about you and your crusade for proper hentai nomenclature. Its about helping somebody learn about folds and drapery. Everything you have posted so far has been a distraction from the actual point of the thread.

kev

[Ilaekae]

Astonw, there's an old saw about there being "no accounting for taste." It's real, it's NOT an insult, and it applies to all fields, art and music especially. If you like something, or think it's pretty, then keep it safe and look at it everyday if it makes you happy. The same applies to people who like Jasper Johns, Kandinsky, Toshiki Yui, Rembrandt, Captain America comic books, or Disney. The problem only comes in when you (meaning everyone) thinks that that one particular thing is better than everything else in the universe. That...is...not...true. Under any circumstances.

I learned how to use color apparently in a different way from others here, and I have a rather strange drawing style. I recognize this, and I live with it, but it still rankles when somebody who is into moody scenarios and over-muscled heroic idiots crits my puny attempts based on their own personal pet peeves.

There's nothing wrong with liking something nobody else does. Just try to get as wide an exposure you can to as much as you can, and you just might find that there are even more things out there you'll like, too.

[Ilaekae]

"Newsflash, genius... this thread ain't about you and your crusade for proper hentai nomenclature. Its about helping somebody learn about folds and drapery. Everything you have posted so far has been a distraction from the actual point of the thread."

Thank you, Kev. You've just reinforced my inclination to never pay much attention to what you have to say. BTW, you did forget to mention that I am single-handidly responsible for both world wars...and it wouldn't hurt to re-read what you just wrote, and then go back and point out all my errors...just don't post it here...these people have better things to do than listen to you and me argue with each other from two different barrels (mine's the one without the lid...).


And BuckWeisel, don't waste a lot of time trying to find anything that makes sense in a conversation like this. Once everybody starts attacking what everybody else SUPPOSEDLY wrote without actually reading it, the thread's a waste of time. Let's just hop the OP got some help from something...

[kev ferrara]

Its a question of utility and focus... If somebody asked for directions to my house, I wouldn't write them on a piece of soft core pornography. Because pornography, soft or hard, always becomes the point. If you can't find any decent noncontroversial sources of drapery, then maybe you should widen your search criteria. Beyond that, the examples you show to demonstrate good drapery, really aren't.

[rpace]

I learned how to use color apparently in a different way from others here, and I have a rather strange drawing style.
(snip)
There's nothing wrong with liking something nobody else does. Just try to get as wide an exposure you can to as much as you can, and you just might find that there are even more things out there you'll like, too.

In a thread like this it's not about liking something, it's about usefulness.

Yes, you do draw and colour very differently than most of the people here, so you should consider how applicable your knowledge and skills are to a situation when offering help. Can you express information about pipe or half-lock folds or point to a source than can express the information? If you can, you're actively helping, if you can't you run the risk of altering the signal-to-noise ratio in a negative fashion.

The porn-as-reference wasn't worth it, since the images you posted don't show how they were made and they're often wrong in placement and execution because of their simplification of the whole subject.

Drapery is actually quite simple and very easy to simplify and stylize to not really being connected to how actual cloth folds and moves. Most manga has pushed that further than Western comics and so becomes even less useful for study than the less-stylized Marvel comics.

To positively change the signal/noise in this message, I'll recommend Cliff Young's slender Drawing Drapery from Head to Toe (Dover) as an addition to the previously mentioned sources. First published in 1947, it's about as up to date as any of the other works mentioned, but, there ya go.

~Richard

[sve]

On a contrary I enjoyed the very clear example of the truthful depiction of cloth folds on those anime images. The highly aesthetical execution was a nice bonus to the truthfulness, and erotic was just an icing on the cake as the poster promised to deliver.

It totally depends in hierarchy of priorities of the viewer mind what he prefers to see and remember.
And of course Stylized doesn't mean wrong. It means simplified or enhanced IMO, but still recognizable as believable for eyes. The gist is still there together with realistic approach IMO.

[rpace]

Wrong isn't truthful. The Pshop colour makes them read as real 3D folds, but they're doing impossible things. These drawings have as much in common with real folds as a nosebleed is an indicator of sexual arousal. They're affectations.

One could study them and derive a method to make lines on paper that might give the impression of drapery, but then the process isn't learning how to draw real drapery, but how to bullshit drapery. Faking it is what you do when you have no other choice.

~Richard

[Izi]

I learned clothing folds from the early Spawn comics....I can't stand marvel comics, i bought two a few weeks ago and felt like I wasted my money. the art is so boring.

Manga art is fantastic, I havn't seen much but it's really elegant. I would be proud to bring that impact into my own art.

Studying drapery from life is useful but the manga artists outline the basic shape and value change without added complications of real life gradients so you can study how cloth moves in the patterns, Ilaekae was correct about them being useful. It's not the only tool but it will help.

And a question...am I the only one who enjoys the peace and respite the IGNORE function offers?

[sve]

Sure eyes can be fooled and one can find examples of it in every genre and approach in art. I don't consider it as a cheating, because as I said the essence which lays in the base of the drawing is right, that the reason we recognize the folds as believable. I start from the point that people generally are not stupid and if something is wrong and contradicts their life experience, they will reject it as phony.

No, Ignore button is not for me.I'm afraid to miss something interesting and i expect it from any person.

[rpace]

Saying you learned clothing folds from early Spawn comics is like saying you learned anatomy from Rob Liefeld.

There's simplification and then there's wrong. Many of the manga examples posted are fundamentally wrong in how they represent drapery. Studying pretty-but-wrong examples won't teach you how to do it right. Studying crap isn't a viable alternative to success, it's ensuring that you're work will never rise above the level of crap.

Learn how to do it right, then feel free to experiment with simplification and stylization.

~Richard

[sve]

Thank you kindly for your advice, I might consider it when I encounter a bad case of simplification, which is not the case in images Ilaekae offered to confirm his point. Those are lovely because they're truthful.

[Ilaekae]

I've corrected the problem, since people here are more interested in arguing about their own views vs someone else's than they are in posting what THEY would consider legitimate examples.

All posts have been deleted because "Due to reaction so far, including the selective twisting of this poster's simple language comments to further other's agendas or views, this poster apparently had an invalid and useless opinion in the opinion of others much more learned in these matters."

Now you can all drop the fuckin' bullshit and do something useful.

[This post will be deleted at this time tomorrow, making it complete. I would suggest that anyone who may have quoted my posts to please remove those quotes so new readers aren't confused or lead down the wrong path.]

[sve]

Ilaekae, does it mean you changed your opinion or you still think it is valid? If it's the second, no need to delete it.

[Ilaekae]

To clarify, I edited my post above so there's no mistaken assumptions.

[sve]

Your fair right, but keep posting this funny/ beautiful anime from time to time, OK? I'm in a dark in this genre, need a conductor.

[Anid Maro]

Man, this got blown out of proportion.

Anime/Manga is a valid source for observing how clothing folds are represented. As well as books from the masters. You just have to see them for what they are and take what you are trying to learn from them. For example, if you're referencing anime you'll have to keep in mind that you're looking at a cartoon and thusly your reference is stylized and abstracted to some degree.

The original poster was asking for "Tips on clothing folds". Not "How do I draw clothing folds in an utterly realistic manner", so for such a general question any tips are relevant. It could be books regarding Rembrandt, it could be Hentai, it could be pornographic photography, it could be the drapes in your house, whatever.

Of course what happened here, is someone posted titties and some others blew gaskets over it. Without naming names, some people here clearly need to learn how to seperate an analysis of a representation of clothing folds from the fact that said clothing is on a half naked woman.

And with that out of the way, my tip to the original poster:

Study both real drapery/clothing as well as how they are represented stylistically. It is often inadvisable to convey each and every little tiny detail of an object, so it will become essential to not only know how things actually look but also to be able to cut out details while still making something look like what it's supposed to.

So look at actual clothing, and study it. Learn what it looks like, how it folds, et cetera. And then study how it is represented stylistically. What did the artist draw? What did the artist not draw? Why does it still look like clothing despite being abstracted from reality?

[rpace]

All posts have been deleted because "Due to reaction so far, including the selective twisting of this poster's simple language comments to further other's agendas or views, this poster apparently had an invalid and useless opinion in the opinion of others much more learned in these matters."


Now that's unhelpful.

Had anyone asked what was weak or wrong with the drapery in the examples posted they could have been addressed -- now they're gone. The content didn't bother me, the notion that they were worthwhile examples of how to improve knowledge and skill in rendering drapery did.

As to your opinion being invalid or useless; no one said that. If you really don't know any of the practical issues of drapery, how can you be sure you're helping at all when contributing even with the best of intentions? If you do feel strong about how these particular examples worked then you could have explained how they were study-worthy constructions of drapery. Not knowing something or running into a disagreement with people who may know more about certain specifics shouldn't be a reason to get defensive, it should trigger a reflex to become more communicative. I bet if you asked Kev to show you where the examples were weak, he would have. Hell, I would, but it would have to wait until after I'm back from Chicago next Monday.

If someone were to ask how to draw better chibis or do a vexel, the best way I could be helpful is by keeping my mouth shut or asking for clarification if I don't understand why something would/would not work. Being helpful is as much about knowing when to offer advice as when to ask a question.

I think we're all here to be helpful and to be helped.

~R

[kev ferrara]

I've started a thread in the lounge for the posting of "masterful drapery studies".

[sve]

I saw them, beautiful stylizations, all of them.

[Musselfarmstudios]

From what I gathered from the discussion is that the Term "Masters" is being used incorrectly . . . The way most people are using the word it sounded as though to be a master you have to be a "white guy" from Europe or America. It's become an umbrella term . . . besides when we use the term master who are we talking about? a good bit of the people posting on CA are Noobs . . . we should try to be a bit more specific and explain who is a master and why . . . not just take it for granted that we all know.

I believe that this was part of the point Ilaekae was trying to make and again considering the backgrounds of most of the people posting here he chose some good examples that actually related to the type of art that we see on a regular basis . . . true the poses may have been racy but that was to get the point across that fabric takes the shape of the subject that it is supported by . . . the dude was trying to be entertaining.

It sucks that it all played out this way!

[kev ferrara]

It sucks that it all played out this way!

Yes it sucks like the Holocaust. (sarcasm)

There's a thread in the lounge now for the presentation of true excellence in drapery draughtsmanship. This thread is over.

[Ilaekae]

"This thread is over."

I would have asked the original poster's opinion first before making that declaration, but we all know what a moron I am. Since you're now apparently in charge, why don't you ask Davi or Elwell to close it then? Fuck the OP.

[kev ferrara]

Here's the link: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=129496

A fresh thread will fix the "signal to noise ratio" (as rpace had it.)

[Mirana]

Yes it sucks like the Holocaust. (sarcasm)

There's a thread in the lounge now for the presentation of true excellence in drapery draughtsmanship. This thread is over.

WTF is your issue? Seriously? Is it with the porn, the anime or Ikaekae? Because I can't quite figure out which would make you compare a simple reference thread to the Holocaust or thump your chest about posting a new thread (in the wrong forum) and declaring this thread over (you are a mod)??

If somebody asked for directions to my house, I wouldn't write them on a piece of soft core pornography. Because pornography, soft or hard, always becomes the point. If you can't find any decent noncontroversial sources of drapery, then maybe you should widen your search criteria.

Analogy completely random. OP asked about folds when doing art. Porn (amazingly!) is art too. Other than the "NSFW" tag nobody was making much of a deal about it.


As to your opinion being invalid or useless; no one said that.

Actually, YOU did: "In a thread like this it's not about liking something, it's about usefulness." "There's simplification and then there's wrong. [ETC]"

And really...have your opinion. Share some examples. However, you don't even know what the OP (or other users) might find helpful in this thread. Some people aren't out to do hyper-realisim. Stylization of folds takes quite a bit of skill on it's own. You want to help, then do so and don't tell other people their opinion isn't valid just because it's not yours.

Also I think you might need to re-analyze American vs Japanese comics because I cringe daily at the anatomy, clothing, props, background abuse that gets away in the US. :P

Ilaekae: I wish you had not deleted your posts. Not just because I think there was nothing wrong, or that others might find them useful, but also b/c of the forum mandate to retain the threads (relatively) as they were. :(

[kev ferrara]

Mirana, my "issue" is that very little of this is helpful information. So why not start fresh. Very simple.

[sve]

Add "I think" and it will sound closer to truth.

[Anid Maro]

While a fresh thread on examples of drapery is both useful and commendable, would it not be better placed within the "Art Discussion" or "Fine Arts, Studies, & Discovery" forums rather than the "Lounge"?

The Lounge is generally a mix of random news and a cesspool of political/religious "debate" that some use as an excuse to get into pissing-matches with one another. Why put such a resource there?

[Ilaekae]

Mirana, I'm a firm believer in not deleting material, but in this case, three people turned it into a war that wasn't going to go away, and the OP deserved better than that. I had no other choice as i saw it, especially when it's obvious that those three aren't even actually reading what I wrote. Apparently, there is an established set of "valid opinions" and a set of "stuff we don't like." I can respect that. Don't make a big deal out of it, please. I won't be making the mistake (again) of expressing very many opinions in the future, so things should be a lot quieter and a lot more "proper." I'm sure there are many much more educated and genteel authorities here that can do a better job than I can, and I mean that as an honest statement, not sarcasm, just so nobody misunderstands.

[kev ferrara]

Check out the "Loose sketches I would like to own", "old comic book artists from the phillipines" threads, among others.

The traffic in the lounge is better and nobody complained about the above topics flowering there.

[sve]

Just three people, Ilaekae.. and those of us who found it useful are a bigger number. Not fair to us.

May I ask how closed to you people call you? or another maybe shorter version of your name.
I'm kind of always afraid to spell it wrong, it is a rude thing to do. Is it possible to call you with some shorter version? Will it be OK?

[Mirana]

Apparently, there is an established set of "valid opinions" and a set of "stuff we don't like." I can respect that. Don't make a big deal out of it, please. I won't be making the mistake (again) of expressing very many opinions in the future, so things should be a lot quieter and a lot more "proper."

I come to CA for a number of reasons, one of which is the fact that this group is (usually) so open and accepting of a great many views of different kinds of art. Many of these are not my thing, but I'm not going to go turn them into a wankfest. If anything I'm going to learn from what I don't know, maybe post my opinion and hopefully have a great (heated?) discussion. Sometimes I discover something I didn't think much of before.

Your decision to censor/edit yourself is fine (I certainly do), but it's not often I see others bother. :P

[rpace]

Mirana -- I'm quite cognisant of what I wrote and how I wrote it. It was up to Ilaekae to clarify the works usefulness when others, including myself, questioned it. Everyone is also entitled to an opinion, but no one in entitled to have those opinions remain unchallenged if brought forth into a forum.

You're making a number of assumptions; learning to do drapery right has nothing to do with hyper-realism or the end result of how you draw, it has to learning how to do drapery right. You bring that knowledge to the work, how much of that knowledge is evident in the work is at the artist's discretion.

Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, Mike Wieringo, Bruce Timm, Katsuhiro Otomo, Hiroaki Samura and Park Joon-Ki all understand the fundamentals of drapery, but I'd not recommend learning drapery from them (well, Lopez would possibly be the exception). I'd generally point to works where you can see the hand and thought process in drawing the drapery and that's not evident in most comics from any region. Otherwise fine artists like Mignola or Obata would do nothing to help the student artist improve their understanding of drapery.

I'm also very aware of manga, eurocomics, brit comics, manhwa and others. I've been following manga since before the First translations of Lone Wolf and Cub in the mid-80s and artists like Breccia and Moebius since the 70s. Please don't confuse my insistence on solid art fundamentals with ignorance of trends, genres and sub-genres.

Kev's got the right of it -- this thread is functionally dead. I look forward to contributing to the drapery thread when I get back next week. If anyone wants to continue discussing matters raised in this thread, private messages might be a better option.

~Richard

(edited to actually say what translation First was publishing in the mid 80s)

[Ilaekae]

Sve, you can call me anything your beautiful heart desires--Illy, Alj, Cat, Hey You!...whatever floats your boat.

[sve]

Illy it is, then, OK? We have close to this a Russian version, Ilja, Iljusha is a name for expressing gentleness to the person :)... You have Slavs roots, do you not? Heh, I talk the whole day about people's roots today, ahahaha, more of it I'm under influence of the Jane Austen right now, rereading 'Emma" and it is just irresistible for me to speak some obsolete words and expressions to poor unsuspected people. Good thing my English vocabulary is so limited or I would go nuts. She is a fine writer.

rpace, dear... almost everything we put on paper is a simplification of nature. This s a fact.

Mirana mentioned hyper(photo)realism for a reason IMO, because it is probably the only style where you have "real" cloth folds, without any lost information, which is relative too of course. Every painting and drawing posted in the new thread about clothfolds is stylized and simplified model, but levels of it different. Every new post confirm Illy's statement. Anime just a bit farther on the ladder.
And how, dear rpace, Illy can prove you usefulness if you find it useless. It takes two people to tango, you know. For me, he proved it, fold of tje cloth were beautiful executed on the images he posted.

[Elwell]

CHRIST ON A PONY!
EVERYONE needs to CHILL THE HELL OUT.

Go... I don't know. Go draw some drapery. Or read some comics. Or look at some porn. Just go do SOMETHING besides THIS ridiculous crap.