Sex, war and Politics ...

[S.R. Braun]

Making a statement about the current state of the media and the many other things gone horribly wrong with the world these days.





http://www.satatica.net/images/sex-war-and-politics.jpg

[Spirituus]

I absolutely love this one! *clap clap*

[bustabustu]

"Sell me shit and tell me more lies. It's giving me a hard on."

That's an interesting comment.. I'm an American so does that imply that I go along with Bushes propaganda and enjoy it?

[GiantPanda]

I think this work is somewhat lacking composition wise (I dont know if that is the correct way to say it, Im not a native english speaker).
My eyes are drawn to the top left corner, which is beutifully rendered, but seems to have the least to do with the overall theme (this is obviously my own opinion and Im sure that others may think differently). It feels like the elements of the other parts are less developed as well (less detail, less colour and so on).
I would prefer if the focus of the work was brought more into the middle.
I simply love the colour and shading, how did you do it cg or traditional?

Obviously, you should take what Ive said about composition with a grain of salt, Im no pro and Im just saying what popped into my head as I saw the work.

[Molly]

wow....that.....is....deep.....

i like the feel of the whole picture. Your very angry about something and you have expressed it very well here.

I agree with GiantPanda, the top left with the womens faces, is well rendered. Maybe you could extend this to other bits and pieces within the image? I noticed the breast with the corporate company piercing, bottom left - maybe you could work on this more, so it stands out?
Personally, I think you should work on this a bit more, and bring out the small icons/symbols you have dotted around the page (ships, bombs, falling people)

Over all, I like the message you have portraited....

Mollyx

[NOOSE]

If the entire picture was rendered like the womans face upper left this would have an even stronger impact,...as the meaning, I cant watch t.v anymore, the last thing I saw was some guy talking about God putting bush in as president to defeat an evil satan...and a whole bunch of speaches about evil verses good, super heros, evil villans, mystery seacret weapons that aparently are invisable, rape chambers made of gold, seacret plots, and terrism pacts againt god himself.......all this coming from a pointy nosed pointy eared beedy eyed man that looks like he played a goblin in the two towers.. :) with comercial breaks every 20 min advertising how that worthless feeling we all share inside is because we havnt been all we could be and the armys the place to be. then I go to get some luckycharms at walmart and all I see on magazine covers is talk of some person named Benifer?
"what the hell is a benifer!"

cool choice of colors as well

[Tully]

The only thing that really stands about this to me is the statement "Sell me shit and tell me more lies. It's giving me a hard on." Forgive my literary crit (I know this is an art forum...) but I think the statement would be stronger if you left out or changed the 2nd sentence. "It's giving me a hard on" is in the passive voice and in such a concise way as you're using it, it doesn't give as much impact as it could. Maybe if it were "It gives me a hard on" if you really wanted to keep it in. IMO, it'd be stronger if it were left out from there totally, including it elsewhere in the pic?

Get out of my head, english prof!!!

Anyhoo, I love the subtle colours. The style works well with the message you're trying to get across. My favourite is the curvy businessman.

[|SaRcAsM|]

This is some intense shit! i am a regular admiror of your work and u always stun me with your semi-gothic/industrial/surrealism/whatever images. Excelent work! You always strive to make your art a statement and thats something that i will always admire in an artist.

speaking of the design specificly, i think the only think wrong with it is wrong use of space. maybe crop the picture a bit on the top? just an opinion.

GREAT job! always look forward to your threads!

Cheers! :chug:

By the way the majority of the american ppl didnt actually vote for bush. I highly recommend reading a book called "STUPID WHITE MEN, and other sorry excuses for the state of the nation" by Michel T. Moore. Combines facts with inteligent humor.

[nardfrog]

Shit, bush's propoganda? Kids, All governments are run on propoganda PERIOD.

Just thank your lucky stars Gore aint Pres because if he was, He'd be asking for an apology from the tali ban and we'd still have planes crashing into our buildings.

[morgoth]

and it begins

[nardfrog]

LOL, morgoth are you prophesizing? I bet your right though!

So bring it people.

Oh yeah, I cant belive you didnt put ticket master on there! They are the biggest corprate scum on earth!!!

[bat]

This is the difference between art and illustration, this is a work of art. Thought and emotion invoking, it makes a statement and sparks debate. Provocative, punchy and in your face. Awesome work. I agree with you nardfrog on the Gore angle. If people think the world is bad, it could always be worse. Before this thread devolves into chaos, we can all agree to disagree on the strong political issues and instead admire this work for what it represents and what it makes us feel.

bat

[|SaRcAsM|]

I guess the ultimate compliment is that it generates so much discussion by being so straight to the point. Sounds to me like you made quite a piece here... :thumbsup:




Sidenote: how da hell can anyone like Bush?! He´s a freakin MORON! geeez.......nardfrog im not saying gore is any better, in fact i believe the Clinton/Gore mandate was one of most republican oriented ever, but COME ON(!) dont tell me u like that cowboy/dirtyharry "YEEEEEEHHAAAAA!!!!" kind of attitude. Sew the 3 wind, rip the whirlwind.

[Phuzion]

Bush is a bitch, corporate media's a bitch, but at least Clinton was an intelligent bitch. Peace

[bat]

Sometimes you just have to go with the lesser of two incompetents. Just because someone doesn't like Gore doesn't mean they are a staunch Bush supporter. However, back to the artistic value of this piece.........


bat

[madphill]

I think this is a poem...not a work of art. You are saying virtually nothing with your subject matter. You have some kind of cyborg-like heads floating in space in the middle..a aerial view of...a guy...talking. One part aesthetically that shows promise is the just left and below center depiction of a man in a suit accompanied by artillery and the flag. THAT says something. The rest of it is inconsiquential. Be aware of these things..I won't get into what is art and what isn't, but I think we all agree that art is a visual language.

[|SaRcAsM|]

party pooper... :D

[S.R. Braun]

well I'm glad I've gotten so much feedback from you all, compliments and crticisms alike. :)

[jrr]

haha. this is funny.

[davi]

I personally find it too angsty. You are pointing out a few interesting topics but you put a pierced nipple right next to it?

wraping hormones and politics together kind of cancels out the seriousness of the piece for me.

Artisticly i find the piece pretty neat, though the collage itself doesn't really merge together well... looks like you just drew a series of thoughts down on paper without thinking about how they would coalesce in to a single piece.

i can't remember the name of the story... but William Gibson wrote something that bascily was a punch in the face to america's media that i think you would find interesting to read.

[nardfrog]

davi has excellent points and does not stear towards his own politacal beliefs, even while this is a political piece.

Thats why hes an admin. Kudos davi.

[nardfrog]

leave it to a libral to say something completely off base and unintelligent like "bush is a bitch, and clinton is intelligent". Bush is a lot smarter then clinton. Where do you get your facts, High times?

I do agree with your views about the media though.

And Bat stated my point clearly.

[|SaRcAsM|]

I think these discussions always tend to revolve around the ppl discussing it instead of the actual point.......nardfrog u still didnt answer my question. How can you stand that arrogant, sometimes even reckless, not to mention plain dumb most of the time, attitude? the USA are admitadly the most powerfull country in the world, with enough firepower to wipe out the whole world(including themselves) several times, but my point is that they should use that power responsably.

Speaking of bad decisions, how can u explain that Bush shreded the Kyoto protocol? how can u explain that the USA is the only country (other than SOMALIA!) that hasnt signed the Ban of Anti-personell mines? How can u explain that no American soldier can EVER be brought to an international court for crimes of war, when entire countries are overrun with the excuse to bring them to international law? just a few FACTS to make u think about it.

Dont get me wrong and dont call me Anti-American to avoid the real questions. i AM gratefull for the protection the USA gave to Europe in past times and even today. I do AGREE with the war against Iraq, i just think the REAL reasons were wrong.

Forgive me if I made any spelling or grammar errors, english isnt my native tongue and hope my line of thinking didnt get lost in all that.

Cheers! :chug:

Sarc

[nardfrog]

Sarcasm, Im not avioding your question, I didnt notice you asked one. About the new topics you've brought up: Your are coming up with anything thats wrong with america you can think of, and asking ME like im suppost to defand them just becuase I said Bush is a hell of a lot better than Gore is. Period. Thats all I said. Go read. You are assuming just becasue i dont bash on my President, that I believe in every single thing my government does?!!!!! Thats absurd!

And by the way, You think ALL 260-whatever countries in the world are agianst land minds? Yeah fucking right. You need to check your facts again.

[bustabustu]

I think these discussions always tend to revolve around the ppl discussing it instead of the actual point.......nardfrog u still didnt answer my question. How can you stand that arrogant, sometimes even reckless, not to mention plain dumb most of the time, attitude? the USA are admitadly the most powerfull country in the world, with enough firepower to wipe out the whole world(including themselves) several times, but my point is that they should use that power responsably.

I ask you how much the USA spends each year on poverty outside the Stats? Ok, figured that one out how much do we spend each year on our own country to help the poor?

[|SaRcAsM|]

nardfrog you´re right. Not all countries do support the ban of anti-personell mines, i just thought u wouldnt like to compare yourselves with the ones that dont......the fact that i said only somalia was to make the point of what kind of countries havent signed the treaty. if u like the whole facts then here they are, the complete list of the countries that havent signed or did not rectify the treaty:

ARMENIA
AZERBAIJAN
BAHRAIN
BHUTAN
CHINA
CUBA
EGYPT
ESTONIA
FINLAND
GEORGIA
INDIA
IRAN
IRAQ
ISRAEL
KAZAKHSTAN
KOREA, NORTH
KOREA, SOUTH
KUWAIT
KYRGYZSTAN
LAOS
LATVIA
LEBANON
LIBYA
MICRONESIA
MONGOLIA
MOROCCO
MYANMAR (BURMA)
NEPAL
OMAN
PAKISTAN
PALAU
PAPUA NEW GUINEA
RUSSIA
SAUDI ARABIA
SINGAPORE
SOMALIA
SRI LANKA
SYRIA
TONGA
TUVALU
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
UZBEKISTAN
VIETNAM

Yep......nice to be beside these countries on this matter :rolleyes: . hate to be a bitch about this but u still havent replied on a number of questions on which i would like to know ur opinion. again i just like to debate things so dont look at me as ur enemy or some shit like that, only a friendly discussion, right? :D

:chug:

Sarc

PS: Sorry for takin ur post by strom Braun......i do get carried away sometimes..... :p

[bat]

We see on American television many portestors against the war and against America. Then you find out that many of the university students in Spain, when interviewed, just protested because they got out of class legitimately for a day, it really bolsters your confidence in the media and the level of intelligence people put into their actions. The same, as mentioned before, happens in America all the time. People protest, stand up and swear to make changes, not because of an inner conviction, but just to be seen. We have Americans acting as human shields in Iraq. To me, they are traitors, and traitors should be shot. Shoot a few of them, and the others I am sure will come to their senses. It might make me sound a facist or 'reckless American', but I am actually not such a bad person, I suppose, and I do have friends from a lot of different countries, and I have lived in other countries (off the continent) for several years. I think that basically all people are the same from my experiences, and it is not even religion that tears us apart, it is the people in power, whether in politics or religion, that have their own agendas and interests that cause strife and misery on this planet. I get along really well with everyone except bigots and racists, but to quote Alice Cooper, 'The world needs guts'. Meaning that people in general need to toughen up and strive for what is truly right and best for all of us, not to wallow in nationalism or religious fanatacism. As stated earlier, you cannot slam America without looking at your own country. Show me Shangri-La, and I will pack up for another vacation. No country is perfect, and constant bickering isn't improving anything fast.




bat

[|SaRcAsM|]

Totally agree with you..well except about the shooting ppl part :p . I dont think you really mean it. Imagine one of your closest friends had the precise opposite opinion you have, took on the crusade to become a human shield in Iraq i dont really believe you would have him shot.

Look im by no means an anti-american nor do i think my country is perfect. my country suckz, my president is slowly catching up on ur Bush(;)) and yet i love it and make no mistake would fight and if necessary die for it. I did not join any protests because simply did not agree with either positions. Let me explain- On the one hand I agree with the war on Iraq but on the other i dont trust the motives that led to it. My point is that it was the right thing to do for all the wrong reasons.

I dont buy the crap "taking down a dictator to free a ppl".There are other situations around the globe with similar situations where the present US administration refused to even comment. Bush interviened in Iraq because it had Geo-Strategic ambitions in the middle-east period. let Bush be man enough to admit it and see if the american ppl would rally behind the ´ol patriotic banner :patriot:.

Americans and all the ppl of the globe (today´s is a truly global society) deserve to know the truth and get decent comments about the real questions, im not talking just about the war either.

:chug:

Sarc

PS:Thx bat for giving me such argumentative challenge, its been a while.:chug:

[bat]

Well, sarc, I agree with you in some areas, and I cannot totally disagree with anyone for many reasons. I am not ashamed of being an American, I have lived in other countries and not only do we have it better than anyone else, we do help out many other countries a LOT. And yet, I am American only because I was born here, not through any other reason. I could have been born Portugese just as easily as you could be an American, nobody has any control over such beginnings, although we may change our situation as life goes on. To me, the most important part of such discussions is to realize that we, as the people not make world choices, are virtually the same everywhere. I do not believe the Iraqi people are evil, and I am sure that those attacking our soldiers do so because they believe they are doing the right thing, which is really all any of us can strive for.

bat

And I thank everyone for having a civil argument which I hope is not getting on anyone's nerves too much. Such debates are important for us to help understand the other, and I have no ill will towards anyone who I don't agree with, everyone here can stop by my humble house for a cup of tea, or a beer, or a screwdriver made with an eyedropper of orange juice in a sea of vodka.

[|SaRcAsM|]

So u wouldnt shoot anyone right? believe deep down inside ur just a sweet sweet person :rolleyes: . where have u lived besides the states? how is that sketch book coming along and whats the site with the scanned pages?

:chug:

Sarc

PS: my take u up on that screwdriver ;) ! peace out!

[davi]

i hate giraffes. fuckers.

[Marcatili]

Staying away from politics, I feel that your artwork is expressing some strongly held views, however I do feel that these ideas and concepts would be a lot stronger in their impact if they were distilled into either one solid image or a series (perhaps a triptych?) of images.
My feeling is that the use of the dialogue spells out your entire point and therefore reduces the artwork to one or two angry comments that may be easy to dismiss- remember, a picture is worth a thousand words. That is not to say that the use of text/ dialogue etc. is 'bad'. I myself have just finished a work that includes the use of text. Personally, however, I feel that the use of writing in a literal form is best handled in a literary medium...
Then again, I also understand that the piece is an angry/ frustrated reaction to a world seemingly populated by morons and therefore was probably a quickly done and often the process is more important than the product- a truism we have been taught to forget.
Anyway, I'll stop blabbering...
hope it's helpful

[|SaRcAsM|]

davi, sorry but something might have been lost in the translation......:rolleyes:

:chug:

Sarc

[bat]

Originally posted by |SaRcAsM|
So u wouldnt shoot anyone right? believe deep down inside ur just a sweet sweet person :rolleyes: . where have u lived besides the states? how is that sketch book coming along and whats the site with the scanned pages?

:chug:

Sarc

PS: my take u up on that screwdriver ;) ! peace out!

I cannot put up images if nobody sends me a scan of what they have done. I have lived in Japan and Indonesia extensively and I have traveled throughout Asia and North America, so I cannot say I am a world traveler, but I get around, and I have seen atrocities that nobody should have to. As to your first question, if the situation was dire, I would shoot someone, yes. I wouldn't aim to kill, unless there was a life threatening scenario. I do not advocate murder, but there are situations where a life needs to end for the greater good. I am not a peacenik, but I have never killed anyone either. I have been forced to draw a weapon on people who were threatening people around me or myself, and I will never hesitate to do so to protect innocent people from those out to do them harm. Just because someone believes in pacifism doesn't mean everyone else does. Nor does it mean everyone should.

bat

[|SaRcAsM|]

I dont consider myself a pacifist nor do i like to be implied to be. Besides i like guns too much for that :D . waht u said is obvious, of course if someone threatens your life or the life of your fellow person you are obliged to defend yourself and the life of others but i was referring to my previous post, the one where i said u wouldnt be able to enforce that "shoot the traitor" if that someone was your friend, therefore you cant enforce it at all.

I cannot say that i have seen any sort of atrocities in the way you conceive them, but believe me, you would not want to see some the slums that are here on my country and even here about 2 blocks from my house, full of poor people and drug addicts shooting heroin into their veines strait on the street cause they just dont care anymore....not a pretty sight.in fact it has become a tradition a sort of tradition to get mugged by knifepoint by 4 or 5 gipsies everytime i step out the door :D .I also cannot know what asiatic countries really are....suppose that the level of poverty is comparable or some of the worst in the world.

not intending to disregard those experiences i think that americans (in general) dont have the same view that Europeans have of war. remember our continent was destroyed twice in 20 years, so people are very adverse to the idea of war and is partially the cause for almost total demilitarization.dont be too fast giving out judgements.:nono:

:chug:

Sarc

[defcombeta]

i feel a skew on looking at this. im not exposed to tv much, gave up 3 years ago on the boggle box but this is one loaded image. this is so much at once though, its overload

great style

john mac

[nardfrog]

Sacrasm: Sorry I havent replied, im not tryin to aviod you, just been really busy.
Your questions were what? How do i feel about the kyoto protical, and why we use land mines?

There are an infinate amount of things every country can fix to make it better, the list will never end. I could start a list that would be as long as a novel of things that are fucked up about America, you have (to me) arbitrarly asked about two of the thousands of problems. I think mines or extremely inhumain, not because they hurt soldiers, but because they end up hurting innocent people. Thats that. We dont get to vote on things like that. Bush put an end to the kyoto protical? I dont even know what that is, nor do i have the time to research it. That may sound naive to you, but as mentioned, that is one thing out of thousands that are problems and i cant keep track of them all.

Things that im more concerned with: Sosical security; one of the most ass-backwords things a goverment has ever done to its people. Incase you dont know what it is, heres a really short description. All citizens must pay a part of each check from their work to S.S. When you get old you are suppost to get that money back. The kicker: Goverment officails DO NOT have to pay into it yet they get to take MILLIONS out when they retire! ANd its getting so depleted that some people, that have payed thousands and thousands into it their whole lives, will never see a dime. ANd the government officials are sitting here pushing for S.S. becuase its the people that pay for it.

That right there just backs up Bats excellent statement, the government is whats messed up, not the people. I probably have many of the same veiws and beliefs as you do, im am just associated with a country that has a different agenda.

[Kay Coenen]

I don't like the title...... not original at all.

But nice work!

[bat]

You know, Sarcasm, if a friend of mine's treason put the lives of innocent people in jeopardy, I would shoot that person. I am a strong follower of the Thick Face/Black Heart teachings and observations by the strategist Chin-Ning Chu. There are many examples throughout Chinese history of a leader having to execute his friend, a general/warlord/etc, whose bad judgement caused a spectacular failure. In these instances, the leader wept while decapitating his friend. It may sound cold or evil, but in extreme circumstances extreme measures are called for. A rough example would be in the movie 28 Days Later. If your teammate was infected, you cannot think, you must strike them down, to carry on and try for the future and the greater good.

As for atrocities, I don't mean junkies shooting up in broad daylight, I have seen people destroy themselves enough in the States. I mean people killing each other over their skin color or religion. I have never uttered a racial slur myself, but namecalling is nothing in the big picture. Fathers selling their daughters into prostitution so that they might get AIDS and pass this on to the opposing side, that is cold, and that is evil. People running over people because of their skin colour is cold and evil.

Take it easy on gypsies, old bat, although 6'3" and pale as a sheet, is part Swede and part Gypsy (and German, Irish, British). I keep my hands in my own pockets though, but I do set a bad example as often as possible.

b a t

[|SaRcAsM|]

nard: look the kyoto protocol was a series of measures to be taken by a country´s government in order to reduce CO2 emitions. Most industrialized countries signed it, including the US. the difference was that Bush basically shoved it in the shredder when he took over. still havent herd about international courts tho.......:rolleyes: (bat, care to comment on that?)

Kay: you just try too hard sometimes.........geeez :rolleyes:

bat: Ok, thats an opinion and as such we must respect it even tho i think you wouldn´t have the guts...definatly will check out Chin-Ning Chu´s philosophy.:thumbsup:

I had no idea that happened (specifically). I am aware of tribal wars between islands and between themselves over religions. I guess there´s a new radical Muslim movement on the move in indonesia. apparently they were responsible for the bomb attack on Bali. East Timor was a Portuguese colony so i am quite aware of ethnic cleansing and militia combats.

And hey i am no racist, in fact my sister´s boyfriend is black and is also a big friend of mine plus my school had like 50-50 blacks and whites. also i do not have a problem with gipsies, i just have a problem with THOSE gipsies (they are always the same ones), and what i said was a LITERAL truth.:D

:chug:

Sarc

bat u sound too serious man...lighten up! not all is lost ;)

[bat]

Sarcasm: Sorry if it sounded like I was calling you a racist or pacifist, this darned internet causes generalizations to sound specific at times. The conflicts I saw in Indonesia were in Sumatra between the natives and Chinese natives (from the rich who fled Communism in China, causing a class system of haves and havenots in the nothern regions of Sumatra).


b a t

[GirafeEnFeu]

It's an amazing piece......

:chug:

[Pavlovich]

meh

[|SaRcAsM|]

is this just me or this thread is getting weird? :confused: first davi now pavlovich......i must be out of the loop like "you have just traveled through a zone where normal things dont happen........very often!" :D

Bat:no insult taken man, just setting a few basic notions on my personality thats all....all cool :cool: oh and thanks for such a worthy debate. really enjoyed it. peace out!

Cheers m8s! :chug:

Sarc

cu around :waves:

[nardfrog]

Sarcasm, *sigh* are you talking about how "american soldiers can never be taken to trial over war crimes"? If so, thats a stupid argument. Becuase they have not in the rececnt history you are aware of, does not mean it is not possible, unless i missed a law passed that granted american soldiers the right to do what ever they want, and not be held responseable.

BTW, sorry for my poor typing, hope it doesnt sway your opinion on my intelect too much.

[OLSEN]

Beh, you´re all complaining about your countries and/or other peoples countries and their actions, well, the Swedish government is currently discussing a 800% taxraise on recordable Cd:s and DVD:s to stop piracy.. hows that for living in a shitty country??

[strych9ine]

OLSEN wins. So now that we've gotten our political debate jollys off, we can get back to discussing what you and I know is our true passion is... big fucking robots.

[NOOSE]

robots! kick ass!!
(just the ones designed to)

[|SaRcAsM|]

yep....OLSEN ur absolutely right. the Swedes have it BAD!...geeez...definatly a bad country to live in....poverty, high criminality, unemployment oh wait, thats my country!

Nardfrog: inform yourself before making unfounded statements dude. what i wrote was that no American soldier can be brought to INTERNATIONAL courts, EVER. imagine this scenario: an american officer flips out and decides to exterminate an entire vilage with its entire population(unheard off:rolleyes: ). That is, as you might figured out, a WARCRIME. he can be judged only by american courts, and cannot be extredited neither to an international court nor to the court of the specified country. Pretty much every civilized country has agreed that war crimes and crimes against humanity, among others, are to be judged by the international court at Hague. Now imagine that was an Iraqui officer and everything i said applys to him too, whats your opinion now? just a thought.......

:chug:

Sarc

oh and big robots do kick some serious ass! :thumbsup:

[devilbunny]

Illustration IS art.

[jemstone]

Originally posted by davi
i can't remember the name of the story... but William Gibson wrote something that bascily was a punch in the face to america's media that i think you would find interesting to read.

That was probably "Mozart In Mirrorshades," although, more recently, "Idoru" and "All Tomorrow's Parties" have a lot to do with that vein of cynicism, as well.

Then again, most of Gibson's work revolves around that sort of "scrape away the surface and see what oozes out," kind of detail.

Gibson being one of my favorite authors, and all, I still believe that the man needs to learn to write a happy ending...

-JEM

[Aussie428]

i really really like this one... reminds me of the album art on Pink Floyd's THE WALL

[Manta_Ray]

nardfrog, while I agree with you that all our respective countries have their share of problems, I think Sarcasm is rightly intimating that America being a large and technologically powerful country, can be the impetus for change in so many areas (consumerism for one) and hold its place in history for the right reasons and yet because of its government/corporations influence chooses not to. Thus the frustration of other countries with even less options having to make do because they are told to...

Ive been to many countries and met so many people even here in Melbourne from everywhere, and your right we are all the same at the end of the day....

[nardfrog]

Sarcasim, I think the United states probably has one of the more fair court systems in the world. Sentences for certain things i fell are a little weak, but thats another discussion. So If you feel that an american would get let of easy in court, just because he is an american, well thats just your assumption. Maybe it is lame though, personly, I dont care because it has no relevance to ANYTHING in my life. So there is my answer: I dont give a shit.
I think the internation court is lame, If you do something wrong in a country, you should be held to court in that country, so on this part we may agree but im baised towards american court because i belicve its fair ; you dont get your hands chopped off for stealing bread but you can get the chair for killing people.(this excludes our civil suits in our courts because they are bullshit, but then again those are for money not warcrimes, so dont worrie about it)

If you want to find a more topical argument to debate about then be my guest, but as i mentioned before, there or so many things wrong with this country, picking out one, especially one that does not seem to have relevance or priority to me seems moot.
Ask me one like why is Bush keeping troops in Iraq, letting them get killed everyday when the Iraqis dont even appreciate them being there. Something like that would be better. But, then again, I dont like getting into politics, because i believe they are all pretty much fucked up big time.

[fex]

atari teenage riot - sex, law, penetration *headbang*



(i quite like the picture)

[|SaRcAsM|]

guess thats the whole problem. It does not affect anything in YOUR life.......:smirk:

peace! :chug:

Sarc

[Manta_Ray]

Hear, hear Sarcasm...I agree...thats the issue with alot of people, "oh well, its all too difficult...its bullshit anyway...I dont care (dont need to care)...."

Theres the reason why the world is going to hell....(for most of its population anyway...

[nardfrog]

Okay then, Sarcasm and Manta_Ray, what have you guys done to help change this problem? Whats that, You havent done shit either? Hmmm....

Everyone is so quick to judge and bitch about others, yet they dont take a chance to evaluate their own lives. Same goes for countries. Im not saying its wrong to point out things that need fixing, but shit, start with yourself and then move on to others - thats kinda my whole point about all these arguments.

[grinn]

What do you want the media to do? Everything will always be biased.

The image is great, the message is poor and can only be seen clearly in small parts. Straightforward? Yes. Expressed well through the imagery? Not at all. Most people only understand what you mean through the quote. And thats it.

[|SaRcAsM|]

i dont need to excuse myself...but as you asked i´ve been to protests that i had agreed upon, demonstrated my opinion against the ones i dont, i take volunteer work, i give toys and clothing to sharity institutions and (VERY IMPORTANT) i will vote against the current government, but hey thats about as much as i can do........except for caring, which is something you have yourself said not to do. What do want me to do about it? plant a bomb at the white house? hey you are an american how about casting a No-numbskull vote? that´d be a start......:rolleyes:

Of course you cant go over to the white house, ring the bell, shoot Bush and say "you´re toyminated" <--(intentional misspeling), but doesnt mean you dont care (which bothers me more even than you supporting bush´s politics).

Peace! :chug:

Sarc

[madphill]

nardfrog: what worries me the most is your spelling.

[Manta_Ray]

Mmm nardfrog....dont get me wrong, alot of people dont do nearly enough...I have protested against the war in Iraq, written to federal senators and joined some of the smaller political parties to try and help against the incumbent parties...

Imagine though, millions of Americans just deciding..."hey enough of this BS, we want some real change!" and then actually doing something about it....wow...I cant even imagine the effect that would have on the world.

Its seems obvious you care mate, just that you are frustrated like alot of others and not sure what, if anything, you can do about things...just do one thing which you think would help and you'd be amazed at how good you feel....

No animosity is meant by my comments, its difficult being on the outside looking in, Im sure sarcasm can agree with that...

Peace.

[|SaRcAsM|]

No I do not. As he himself said we all have our problems and all countries are basically the same, with mostly similar shitty problems. He also said that one should take action were he felt was closest to home, you´re an American, American politics close enough? I will vote in the upcoming elections against the current government here in my country (by the way they supported Bush even tho he broke multiple agreements with us......wankers) because i do not agree with them, simple as that.

So do the same next elections on your country! And about not caring of what happens a block away from your house, as long as it stays there, take my example for istance, Iraq and America arent that close to me and still I fight, I discuss for things to change in what little way i can!:mad:

America is the most powerfull country in the world and YOU live there. so only YOU can directly intervene. We here in Europe and Rest of the World can only watch and believe that our message goes through. I say if that even makes you (americans) think about the subject (hard thing to do) its FUCKING WORTH IT.

By the way i dont agree with you about keeping troops in Iraq. Americans, British, Polish, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese (yep, us too, only about 1000 of us, but we´re going there ;) ) are doing a fantastic job helping the Iraqui population. Agreed that certain parts of the population are hostile towards this "ocupation" but that, in my opinion is only Anti-Western resentment. If someone would Withdraw most Western troops replace with Arab contingents (moderate ones like jordania for example) and it should be fine. We have to be honest they dont like us. but hey that doesnt mean we cant do the right thing. Read it like "thats what make us different and better than them" if it makes you happy. I just want the job done.

and look i really do hope like manta_ray you didnt mean that shit and you´re only frustrated but that...

I dont care because it has no relevance to ANYTHING in my life. So there is my answer: I dont give a shit.

....is just fucking wrong, and justly or not, that what you said is what crosses over to the ROTW as being the general American opinion.

just to finish i really resent that shit about not doing anything about it. You dont know me, you probably dont even know where my country is (which gives you a general idea of the influence it has over the rest of the world) and still, apparently, i do more to try and change the fate of the world (which like it or not pretty much revolves around you) even in my extremely limited scope, than you do when it would be that much easier for you. I can only only judge you for what you wrote, and i´ll stick to that, be sure to do the same...

maybe im writing all of this for nothing, maybe not. at least i tried to convey my message, my opinion. its in your right to disagree of course, as is not having an opinion.....:smirk:

Peace! :chug:

Sarc

[Manta_Ray]

Err...Sarcasm were you referring to my post when you said:

No I do not. As he himself said we all have our problems and all countries are basically the same, with mostly similar shitty problems. He also said that one should take action were he felt was closest to home, you´re an American, American politics close enough? I will vote in the upcoming elections against the current government here in my country (by the way they supported Bush even tho he broke multiple agreements with us......wankers) because i do not agree with them, simple as that.

I was simply stating that as you and me are foreigners to America, looking from the outside in, our frustration at Americans general disdain for politics is duly noted....err if the above is directed to me..please note, Im not American and agree with most of your statements, although the language you use is somewhat abrasive in tone, you wont win any arguments by being angry.... ;)

[|SaRcAsM|]

nope that was for nardfrog. i can read that you´re Australian, by the way melbourne is beutifull im told.

oh and about the tone disregard that on acount of frustration. The point i was trying to make remains.

Peace!:chug:

Sarc

[Manta_Ray]

Have a beer and a paella for me mate....:)

[|SaRcAsM|]

Trying.....to....hold...my......anger..........Pae lla is a Spanish dish.......you cant begin to imagine how.....errrr....mad... i am at the moment..........:flamig: :flamig: :flamig: :flamig: :flamig:

Sarc

[nardfrog]

Im not even sure what to reply to sarc. Ill try to break it down for you a little better so that you are not so offened by the fact that at this point in my life, I dont give a shit about the fact that americans cannot be held in international court. I NEVER said I dont give a shit about what is going on in the world. I think you are exargerating my statements. Ya see, you have no idea what is going on in my life right now, as I have no idea what is going on in yours. If you have the time and energy to devote to help bettering the world, well then thats awsome, but Im sure you have heard of the word "priorities". Right now I am struggling to find a decent job and pay off 44,000 dollars in student loans. Thats the number one priority in my life. And then there are about sixty other things that come after that. If I was still in school or had a nice stressless job, the things you have talked about could be bumbed up on the list and I could devote energy to making a change. But for RIGHT now in my life, I dont have the time. So dont bother repling to this, whinning about how thats the whole problem with america and that no one cares. Because that is bullshit and you will be waisting your time.
You want to make a difference, and you are doing all you can. Thats good. I want to be a responsible person and pay my bills so i can survive. Maybe we have different agendas, but I dont think you should be so offended by the fact that americans are not making the world a better place - its just that a lot of americans have problems that they hold to a higher priority.

I didnt vote for Bush and I dont think i ever would. At the begining of this thread all i put was just be happy Gore isnt pres. And I think from there on, you decided i was pro Bush and mr evil.

To recap: The "I dont give a shit" line stands strong ON THAT POINT ALONE. And the reason is becuase I have life to deal with. Period.

[madphill]

It's unfortunate that $44k in loans for school didn't teach you to spell. Haha

[nardfrog]

MADPHILL: you are funny. The biggest worry here is that i have poor grammar?! Dang you must have a really Boring life!
Anyways , I already stated i suck at spelling so I beat you to the insult.

Oh and I didnt major in English at school. It was a degree in Graphic Design I aquired. If this were an Important essay I would obviously proof read it. This is in internet forum. So frankly I dont give a shit about my grammar. I think you can still cleary understand what Im saying. I definately dont think my money went to waist just because im not the spelling B champ like you are, because I learned a lot about life there and i think that is a million times more important than my spelling. So you can have your stupid little kicks over me not spelling well.

[chukw]

Inappropriate to this forum. Moderator! Please move this thread to a discussion board!

[|SaRcAsM|]

Chuckw......take a hike.

nardfrog, Plato states one of THE rules of debate is that one must first admit the possibilty (even if remote) that his point of view is wrong or there´s no reason for the debate.

I too am studying (Mechanic Engineering) and hopefully(?!) will be in your shoes in 4or5 years. I too have priorities and are aparently not the same as yours...whataver...i didnt say that the problem was only American and it isnt. I did say the USA were the most powerfull country in world and that made them more influential and had proportionaly more responsbilty. The main thing i said was that the problem was ppl in general didnt care.

And about that misspelling i dont care. But one should always try to better oneself. note that i never took English classes and I believe my writing is acceptable so thats no excuse .;)

You´re full of angst man! chill! geeez........I´m not trying to offend anyone, i just thought we were having a great debate. Plz dont say im whinning and that my arguments are bullshit, they are my opinions and you should respect them as I respect yours (although , i admit, i do get carried away).

I also didnt say you voted for Bush, I said you should vote against him. I did say that you supported his politics for the most part.

Manta, still really pissed! paella.......geeeez........yes you can eat paella in Portugal, but then again you can also order Chau-Min and Sweet&Sauer Pork. AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH :ranting:check your geography dammit.

See:

Portugal (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/po/map.html)

Spain (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/sp/map.html)

Europe (http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-577604-map_of_europe-i)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Peace! :chug:

Sarc

PS:Just kidding, no harm done ;)

[nardfrog]

Sarc, I agree about the bettering yourself comment, and ofcourse Id like to have better spelling , but I just dont care about that all too much. The fact that your grammar is equal or greater than mine on these threads is something to note, but as far as speaking and understanding the language, I am very capable - ofcourse I should be because its my fisrt languege. Im just sayin I dont think by any means, I am ignorant to my language. Not that you said I am.

BTW, I was not saying you have been whinning, I was just saying dont start whinning. And I do think people care, just because they are not making the changes that you think are posible does not mean people here (US) do not care.

I dont support Bush's politics. Im not sure where you got that idea. Yes, I think he is better than Gore, but i mean heck, a kick in the nuts is shitty, but its better than getting them ripped off right? That was my point way back when this started. I felt we did the right thing by going to war because Saddam is a very bad person. I do not think that was bushs motive though. I think his are involved with oil, but thats only speculation. So Bush did one thing I agree with, but for a different reason, and that doesnt make me Bush supporter.
Hell, hes leaving all those troops in there and the iraqis are killing them every day. I think thats pretty fucked up. I wish he'd pull them out.

I dont want to debate anymore, but dont worry, you havent offended me and if i see you post art i wont hesitate to give you an unbiased critiuqe, just because we have some different veiws on politics dont mean shit. And Id expect you can agree with me on that one.

[|SaRcAsM|]

We´re agreeing on several points for different reasons....lol....So no heart feelings. Agreed on your last remark and i´ll be sure to do the same.

We´ll meet again for sure......;)

So if no one has anything else to add to this forum, i hereby declare it dead. :(

This thread had at this time a stagering 4783 views and 72 replies. guess S.R.Braun got a little bit more exposure than he expected with this one :D .

Once again sorry for hijacking the thread. Cu when I see Cu :waves:

Peace and Beer! :chug:

Sarc

(a little provocation)=>i still think Bush is an idiot........:rolleyes: lol

[ChadTHX1138]

S.R. Braun: Wow this must be a great piece to cause such a debate! it got a reaction.

Personally I dont dig the piece, I think you should keep drawing and not worry about trying to have a voice in your work because that is like just having picked up a pencil for the first time in your life and deciding you are going to try and find your new "STYLE". you dont find it...It finds you like writing your signature it just happens after awhile.

To me saying that this is what your going for when you cannot clearly execute a piece of work is showing how much you dont know yet and are trying to cover up for what it's lacking by saying what it is.

by the way I skipped a whole lotta crap here so I didnt read everything I think you fellas should private message everyone until you can HUG and make up...Sheesh!

[JoshuaTheJames]

I'll give you a dollar if you can get those same Ideas across without using type in your illustration.

-Joshua

[JoshuaTheJames]

OOps,

You forgot BET on that nipple ring.

-Joshua

[|SaRcAsM|]

Chad then abstain yourself from making that kind of comments.......leave to the moderators their job. I cant believe this crap!everytime a guy has a decent discussion here everybody just wants to shut you down.......:mad:

anyways you´ll be happy to know we´re retiring from this thread...

Sarc

[Manta_Ray]

Ooops..sorry about the cultural mistake on my behalf....:rolleyes: have another beer then..hehehe....though I cant believe you are so angry about an honest mistake...

I appreciate your enthusiam sarcasm...I think in this situation the internet only inflames certain perceptions about other people and other countries because the full picture is still hidden from us and each other...

I know of Portugal, but not enough about its culture or politics, but how much do you know of my country?

The only way we could possibly fix that is if we all took an active interest in each others countries and actually met in person...but that wont happen...(I think this is what nardfrog was alluding to) so it will take many more small steps before everyones conciousness reaches the level of understanding you are asking for...in politics or otherwise.

Heres hoping the world will change for the better sooner for everyone....

[kungfu_chook]

Dead Kennedys did a song about song something like this image years ago

It was called "Kinky sex makes the world go round"

It was a shot the American and british governments at the time.

quite funny.


And guys take it easy and breath a little..

[|SaRcAsM|]

im pretty sure i know more of australian culture, history and politics than you do about Portugal.......besides i already said i was kidding :rolleyes:

Peace!:chug:

Sarc

[madphill]

*chuckle* money didn't go to waist...haha..belly fat. Ridiculous. I'm sorry nard..I just can't take a single word you type seriously, because your "SPELLING" not "GRAMMAR" (as much) sucks. It's funny. It's like asking a bum what he thinks of caviar. MOOOHOOWHAAA! I don't kar if Iy Luk Stooped...haha

[psyop63B]

This thread really went off topic. MOD's??? I think the first 3 or 4 posts involved c&c, then after that it was all "Bush sucks" and "Clinton sucks" back and forth. Guys, please PM your views to each other in the future or take it to a politics-oriented forum because I'm not interested in hearing them. Thank you.

[nardfrog]

madphill: yawn, you're so fucking boring. Like I would ever give a shit if a stranger from the oppisite side of the country thinks Im stupid simply because I made some typos out of the thousands of words I have put on here.

I was not going to respond but you are just so annoying I couldnt help it. I thought You might actually have something topical or relevant to say but i guess not.

Hint for rebuttal: Make a comment about how my spelling is poor and then top it off with laughter and recognition to how smart you are. That will really throw me off! Good luck, douche bag.

[geronimo66]

Kyoto is a money maker not an ozone saver... There is NO global warming. Do some REAL research!!! More than 20,000 scientists world wide have agreed on that one.

Saddam needed to be taken out, the US(bush) was the only one with a pair, so he did. In the long term the people of Iraq will be the victors for this.

With the world wide bias against America, do you really think that any US soldier would get a fair trial. They would become pawns again the US and be used to push us to the will of others.

Any country has issue with us simply ask us to leave. The US does/gives more to help other countries than any in history!! Do we do everything right... NO of course not.

I voted for Bush, and will do so again. I like keeping my money, I like to think for myself, ans I don't want to let other countries push me around.

I often think about the WWII generation and what they would have done in the situation this generation sfinds itself in. So many are so quick to down this country. It really makes me sick. I challenge you to find a better place.

[|SaRcAsM|]

First of all, psyop63B, like i told chukw.....PISS OFF! if the Mods want to shut this thread down or move it, then by all means do so. STOP trying to tell other ppl how to do their jobs! for pete´s sake if you dont want to hear our opinions then get the fuck off! ppl like this make me sorry we´re talking over the net.......:bash:

Second, madphill leave the guy alone that kind of comments is really uncalled for at this thread.:mad:

Third, geronimo66,......geeez dont even know where to start.....NO global warming? LOL more than 20000??!! LOL what about the other 5 millions or so?LOL No fair trial?! Not a bit a fairer than those guys stuck on Guantanamo.......speaking of which, about leaving when asked to, why not dismantle that base? it serves no strategic purpose except as foothold in Cuba, basically the whole base is a prison/listening post on a fuckin beach.......Other countries push the US around???for Gods sake do you even listen to yourself? :rolleyes:

Yes the US do a lot of good to the globe....but hey even if a murderer donates 2mil $ to a charity institution that doesnt excuse the fact that he killed someone.kinda of an extreme example but you get the message...

I do agree with the invasion of Iraq i just dont trust the motives. BUT you just cant invade a country based on specific reasons then change them when they´re not convinient anymore, NOR can you invade a country when the UN doesnt allow you to! Its an offensive action not a preemptive strike, and as such forbidden by international law. And the nerve to ask for international aid afterwards!.....man....:rolleyes:

By the way Bush is a morron and puppet stop idolizing him.....

Peace!:chug:

Sarc

[geronimo66]

hehehe your funny do some researech on global warming. Some very major schools and scientists have concluded that the earth isn't any warmer than it's 1000 year average. Many global warming people look at the numbers for a 100-300 year average temp. The earths global tempreture cycles, if you pick a cold cycle as your base average then bam you have global warming :rolleyes:

I don't recall saying the I idolize Bush, I do believe in him as my President. Can he make mistakes, sure. He came into office having to deal with a mess. Our economy was beginning to build prior to 911, which set it back a bit. It has again begun to surg forward. You call him dumb, but offer no real evidence. He has put some of the best people into strong positions. Any real leader knows to rely on good people, and not try to be the hero. To speak well doesn't make you smart, it makes you a used car salesman(clinton).

The US can be pushed around, maybe not militarily but rather by having our troops harrased by countries/people that don't like our policy's.

During WWII 3000 men died in an attack, we had a defined aggressor. This time they attacked, again killing 3000+ people. I have no problem returning that attack on any country that help to facilitate that attack. If intelligence say's that country is acting in favor of attacks on the US. If someone is going to hit me I am not goin gto let them, I am going to counter strike. Saddam was more than likely working with terrorists, was more than likey working towward an atomic program as well as chemical. We advertised our invasion, he had plenty of time to disguard, destroy, or hide any evidence.

Your words help to confirm my belief that most of the world is against the US, and would love to see us fall from power.

[|SaRcAsM|]

what is it like?....errrrr....he who is not with me is against me? are you that simplistic about things? do you actually believe the US to be a kind of bastion holding the tides of darkness that spur from the rest of the world? That kind i thinking gets you nowhere.......except in a position of self-overestimation. Fall from power? you have yourself far too high in your own consideration........Get real you dont rule the world. You are not the all powerfull Roman Empire and you dont have the RIGHT to hold ppl without a judgement, and you DONT have the RIGHT to consider yourself superior by making and enforcing rules, that would be fine, if only it applied to Americans too.

Yes you are the most influential and militarly powerfull country in the world, no question there, that doesnt mean you can bully other countries and international organizations around or try and use them when it suites you. With power comes responsabilty.

Speaking of Iraq, i already said i agreed with the invasion. BUT I DONT TRUST THE MOTIVES! my point is the US HAD to invade Iraq QUICKLY for the attack was imminent! then you invade and voila, no nukes, no chemical weapons, no biological weapons, not even dirty laundry. :rolleyes: if you do find them, hell i´ll admit im wrong, but until that day i have to believe there was no reason to attack before the UN had issued a directive.

I wont discuss global warming with you......the majority of the science community agrees with one of our opinions, and i dont have to tell you with which one....

Youn dont have to actually say you idolize Bush....its pretty clear where you stand.....you must love the cowboy "there´s a poster in West in says wanted dead or alive" crap. I thought i didnt have to put examples of bush brain-dead intelect, he makes a fool of himself on a regular basis. Its pretty clear that he has no real leader capacity, and the government is lead by his daddy´s old office so enough of that. What even makes you think i like Clinton? is the world either black or white to you? no "grey" in the middle? :confused:

Get your act together and dont try to speak for all americans cause as you well know, these elections werent that transparent if you know what i mean.....(dont get me started):rant:

Peace!:chug:

Sarc

[madphill]

Yes, I'm all for removal of this never-ending thread myself. Nothing more disarming than a bunch of whiny-ass hippies.

On a side note I would like to quote good ole' Jack Handy
"If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them."

Please accept the fact that we don't really know a damn thing. All the anti-Bush sentiments AND the pro-Bush sentiments come from the news that lies to us anyway, and then we buy some Crest white strips during commercial break. Get real folks. We really don't know the reasons for attack...but I think we all agree Hussein was an ass. I TRUST my government to make these decisions. I can vote. Think about how propaganda was used at Roswell. They blamed the shit on the Communists, because it sounded cool. It was a friggin weather balloon.

[|SaRcAsM|]

DELETED ,madphill, already discussed it with you....removing it now.....

[geronimo66]

I put my trust in Jesus Christ, as does my president. I believe him a man of faith and in that I believe him to be well guided. I can only develope my opinions on what I see, and am told.(yes by the media) I consider many sources and try to see the common ground.

No, I am not a cowboy, the US doesn't have the right to bully other countries. However I do think we have the right to take action if we feel the need to do so.

Who has more rights the person planning a fight or the person whos going to be hit??

You complain that people make assumptions about you, though you are quick to do so about others. The US has traditionally been very slow to war. This country has been greatly critisized for it in the past. Now that we decide to take action in defending attacks we are wrong.

At I wish the US would seperate from the rest of the world and watch the standard of living fall further for the rest of the world. So many countries complain and hate the US yet stretch out there collective hands the that greenback.


Oh, on the global warming thing, stop watching the TV and read. Look up the international survey done the the Oregon institute of science and technology... or papers resealsed my Harvard, and many other top scientists. Please try to pry your eyes open.

I have said my peace, have fun with it.

[madphill]

*(chorus chant)* AAAAAAAAAhhMMMEN>

Me likey what Geronimo say.

NOTE:I addressed Sarcasm's comments privately to spare the rest of you from anymore slander. Yeah, yeah, I'm from the south; must be an inbreeding redneck. Guess he's running out of dumb things to say and had to dip into the extremely unintelligent stash of things to say instead. Give yourself a hand pal.

http://historyimages.com/flag/50star-animated.gif Thank America for the internet, otherwise how could you show your ignorance to a worldwide audience? ;)

[|SaRcAsM|]

not agreeing with you=i hate the US

yep.....thats about it.

Sarc

[|SaRcAsM|]

Unless something urgent appears, im not posting anymore on this thread.......all the ppl that are supposed to be happy, well....be happy :) as far as im concerned this thread is closed (again).

Seems to me things got out of hand.....

Peace!:chug:

Sarc

Closed with 92 replies and 5700 views.....not too shaby...