ninjas, samurias, or shaolin monks?

[metalwinds]

what do you think is cooler: ninjas, samurias, or shaolin monks? i am taking a poll for an illustration class i have and the poll results will eventually lead to a piece, so your responses would be greatly appreciated.

peace

[Bishop Six]

I don't really see how there's any contest. :D I think everyone knows that Ninja were the greatest warriors to have ever lived. Their methods of stealth and espionage have brought them to legendary status over the last 1000 or so years. Their combat arts are unmatched in their effectiveness and efficiency, disregarding the bushido code of the samurai. The popularity of Ninja movies in the 80s has really done a disservice to the truth of what Ninja were. The movies have portrayed them as psychopathic mass murderers who kill at the drop of a hat and can shoot fire from their hands, fly, and literally become invisible. But perhaps this widespread misinformation of the Ninja is inherent to and, indeed, appropriate for the deceptive ways of the ancient Ninja. :D

Forgive me for rambling.

[metaphysiks]

samurai not only look cooler but just kick a lot more ass. samurai are trained just as heavily as a ninja in both hand to hand combat and wielding a blade. i think it would be an interesting fight but i think it is the samurai who would prevail. i think movies also did a number on the reputation of a samurai. it made them look like they couldnt do anything without the code. man do you know how many asses have been kicked by samurai. samurai will kick your ass during they day, they dont need to wait until youre sleeping or sneak into the bathroom while youre taking a shit. i would love to see a fight involving a ninja against a smaurai is his battle armor. hands down, the samurai would walk home the victor.

[oglzogl]

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

[Iiori]

I say Monks. They aren't so over used. :D

[J.Mac]

Metal i would have to say shaolin monk. they have complete control of everything, that includes themselves and there surroundings. along with any situation they are in. Shaolin monks are superiour "imo"

-Jesse

[Genesis]

Should this be in the Discussions forum... Jason!?

[Phuzion]

Yeah, I'd say this is in the wrong forum.
I think a ninja would work a samurai, cause they were both masters of the sword, but the ninja were superior in bare handed combat. Monks rock because of their meditative aspect, but they didn't spar that much, or at least don't now... I think it's all about ninjas and apachee scouts. They were probably both equal in stealth skills and survival, and maybe in combat, thought the ninja would probably win. Yeah... random input.

[Mark_Li]

Historically speaking, I'd say neither side has an advantage since it all comes down to individuals. Ninja were mostly just peasants with some training and wilderness expertise, samurai were largely just braggarts and bullies, and monks were mostly passive lechers.

I'd say if you had to pick the best from each group to face off (and I'm speaking strictly of historical samurai and ninja here, not black-clad hollywood idiocy) I'd say shaolin monks, simply because there are alot of pseudo-paranormal things that are DOCUMENTED and concretely recorded that monks have done. Incredible shit. I dunno, man.

I love samurai and ninja, but I have to give it to the monks.

[battlemonkey]

damn, samurai vs ninja, thats almost like saying who would win? superman vs batman w/kryptonite ring.
i'd say a samurai would kick ass, but a ninja would fight dirty, traps, other ninjas etc. so, a ninja be logic would be kcik ass. but ninjas have been over done, and so have the monks! samurai can be super clean, dirty, drifter, emperors greatest warrior etc. go with samurai, you cant go wrong!
forgivuness puleease for my pointlessu ramblingsu~
:batman:

[Carnifex]

i'd say ninja,even if they've been overdone by many.
they were trained from their beginning on and mostly now even in some special "school" or sumthing,just ordinary peasants.after years and years of training they were effectively in hand to hand combat aswell as swords aswell as distant range weapons.a real(or really good) ninja could make a salto out of stand and their biggest advantage (or rule) was to move without being heard,which made them great assassins.as said they were mostly normal peasants and that thing with the typical ninja hood is also mostly fiction.
imo samurai were just an elite force and not too individually and i dunno too much about shaolin monks to tell whether they're that good.

[sin]

Samurai man, think about it. There isnt a whole lot of room for innovation in any of the three but the samurai has the most potential. You can do anything with the armor, he's not terrible constrained. THe ninja has to cover most of his body, and the monk cant use blades, i assume, because of his monkly duties lol, for lack of a better term.

[Mark_Li]

Shaolin monks train regularly with a variety of swords and bladed polearms, so heh.


Anyway, I guess most people have alot of misconceptions about the historical and true nature of ninja, so its kind of moot asking this question.

Whatever.

[Phuzion]

I dunno, I know two people that train in traditional ninjitsu (I forget the actual name of it) under one of Master Hatsumi's students, and when it comes to doing "paranormal" shit, the ninja kicked mad ass... I'd say mix all three of them, and you'll be fine... A lightly armored samurai that had the drifter quality of the monk, and his weapons and armor and all that were built for stealth. Yeah.

[Mark_Li]

Hatsumi's "ninjutsu" is mostly bullshit. No disrespect to Bujinkan, I think its a great system...but it is in no way traditional Ninjutsu. There is no surviving style that has anything to do with authentic Iga or Koga ryu ninjutsu, so whatever.

Ninja were peasant farmers who lived in the mountains, eventually evolved into the Yamabushi, and from there sold their skills as wilderness experts and mercenaries to the highest bidder. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing crazy and supernatural, just ordinary, hard-working and incredibly tough people.

History obscures and embellishes everything.

[JackSparrow]

Shaolin Monk, no contest, dot. imo

http://otherrealmcreations.250free.com/remotelinkpics/signature2.gif (otherrealmcreations.250free.com)

[J.Mac]

Phuzion has a great idea you should make a hybrid of all 3! i dunno it sounds good to me :D

-Jesse

[Marcatili]

I reckon Shaolin monks like in Enter the Dragon.
But comparing ninja, samurai and monks is a bit pointless if you're going to be all historical about it I think...in a stupid kung fu fantasy land it would be a cool match up any way you'd do it.
But I really posted just to say how funny that real ultimate power site was :)

[geronimo66]

no such thing as KI, or powers, stop watching TV.... You train from 5 years old like a monk and you too can do some neat stuff... no "special" magic :rolleyes:

I'll put my money on a Silat guy, in the real world.

[Szyslack]

ninja did not exist in history in the manner that they appear on tv and in movies. they didn't wear the black costumes or any of that, and their weapon of choice was poison.

[defcombeta]

samurai, good armour if you could afford it and lets be honest a large selection of knifes and swords to chose from. also samurai studyed the arts and the written word later in japans history, the warrior artist was a very common sight.

[Mark_Li]

Originally posted by Szyslack
ninja did not exist in history in the manner that they appear on tv and in movies. they didn't wear the black costumes or any of that, and their weapon of choice was poison.


Once again someone decides to say something as if it is fact, when it has no backing whatsoever. Youre right about everything except the poison bullshit, so I'm not ragging on you or anything. But...that "their weapon of choice is poison" thing is absolutely false. Their weapon of choice is WHATEVER WAS NEEDED. Usually, your run of the mill katana or tachi, often stolen or looted.


Anyway, ya.

[Cat]

Do you think there would be ninjas without shaolin? ;)
I practice taichi chuan myself.. it originated from shao lin chuan.. as did kung fu.

So i'd say monks! ^^

[Shadowkiller]

I would have to say Samurai. Because their cloths have the most detail to them. i'm not going bye their styles of fighting or there ways of life.

But i also like monks :D

[Guild Navigator]

A ninja isn't above using a gun so I say ninja.

[Xen]

i'd say shoalin monks. have you ever watched a national geographic channel documentary about them? damn!!

[c0ldf1ame]

i say shaolin monks, cuz without the development of shaolin kung-fu, u wouldnt have samurais or ninjas or techniques like tae kwon do and jujitsu, monks master all 18 arts of weapons plus all the techniques in hand to hand combat. Ninjas and Samurais are overated because japanese culture became popuiar cuz japan conformed to western society earlier, but hte real shizznit is still in china :D

[pvrhye]

Ninjas sneak, Samurai swing swords. Shaolin Monks stand on sword blades amd break staves over tier adam's apple. No contest.

[Aikisean]

To the samurai, his life was not his (or hers for that matter) but his lords. They are trained warriors mentally, physically, and spiritually from birth. They live and died by the sword at his lord's command. They developed their own philosophy to life; bushido, the Way of the Warrior. A samurai was expected to learn all aspects of warfare, armed or unarmed. Truly, the most noble and dedicated of the samurai were a force to be reckoned with.

The ninja were spies, scouts, and assasins. They specialized in being invisible and blending in with the crowd. Nine times out of ten, they were NOT martial arts experts; that is hollywood. Their training dealt with getting specific covert jobs done and it did not center around combat. If they were ever caught, their mission was a failure, for they were immediately interrogated, then killed. Any skills in swordsmanship, jujitsu, and improvised weaponry were auxilliary skills to help prevent capture. Their main skill was stealth and disquise.

Monks, contrary to popular belief (ala Hong Kong and Hollywood... and ofcourse Japanese film companies) are not super human. Part of training in monastic orders of the east is breathing exercise and body in motion meditation. Through this training, a monk was expected to achieve enlightenment. Kung fu was developed for this first, it became a martial art second. The human body is capable of many amazing things. Coupled with the mind and the human spirit, it is the most impressive machine known to man. Monks from all over the Asian continent and Japan understood this. But when it came to defense against skilled armies in armor and weapons, even their great abilities of body control and kung fu could not stand a chance.

Of the three, say on an earthen arena, a samurai would defeat the ninja and monk together or one at a time. No contest. If say, they were all placed in a labrynth, the ninja has the better chance. And if it were a contest of strength, endurance or wills, it may be a tie between the samurai and monk. My money is on the samurai.

These three types of people often intermingled throughout history. Monks were often former samurai condemned to monastic life for a wrong they committed. Ninja could very easily be samurai or monks by day, only to dress in black when needed at night. But except for a couple of instance in history, you could only be born a samurai.

Monks and ninjas have mingled and changed in mythology today. Master Hatsumi, a reknown master of ninjitsu, teaches a style of jujitsu that was originally not part of his art. Monks today from the shaolin temple rarely teach the skills they once learned. Today, it is Wushu, more dance then combat form. The arts of the Samurai are now altered into kendo, judo, and aikido. Other traditional styles are still clinging to life because of lack of popularity. Monk styles are all the different versions from kungfu to karate with all there weapon styles stuck in between. The art of ninjitsu may not see life after this century for it has been replaced with todays elite forces training (SEALs).

Everything here is true; it can all be looked up. I like samurai because they are most noble, have the most character, and are still the best fighters in history.

[Mark_Li]

Once again, AGAIN, someone is spouting off regurgitated stuff. Most of what you say is true, though, so good job on being mostly intelligent. However, the whole bit about ninja not having a priority concerning combat is utter bullshit, again. The various (18 or more, we don't know) systems that make up "ninjutsu" had a VERY martial aspect to them.

Hatsumi is not a renowned master of ninjutsu; hes a renowned founder of a style that he calls ninjutsu.

Concerning samurai being the most noble and skilled warriors, I don't think we can say that as truth. Many samurai were complete scumbags, loafers, or worse; rapists, murderers, etc. The romanticized ideal of them, however, is cool.

Anyway, I think alot of people (including myself, a few years ago) have an irrational infatuation with Japanese/asian martial culture and somehow view it as superior, etc. Now I'm not gonna say that a medieval English peasant soldier would be any match for a samurai, but there are many many cultures with incredible warriors that we can't begin to really match up in earnest, because of so many varying factors.

This whole thing is like when people say "whats better, martial art A or martial art B" etc. Its too complicated and detailed to accurately compare that way. So, lets not try.


Now, a slight disclaimer concerning my dissing samurai and such. I study Muso Shinden Ryu iaido, and would like to study a traditional form of kenjutsu/iaijutsu as well, and I'm all about the samurai culture/tradition; however, I have no illusions about the truth of history. So anyway, yah.

This isnt really directed towards any one person, I just felt like getting it off my chest, though this isnt the best place for it. I'm just tired of reading alot of contrived crap on message boards. You guys are cool though, so don't hate me for it. I needed to vent.


So, uh. Back on topic! In any case, itd be a fun fantasy fight situation, so go for it.

[Trig]

monks easily win

they are the creators of martial arts, goddamnit!
plus, monkey style kicks ass

[Bishop Six]

"Hatsumi is not a renowned master of ninjutsu; hes a renowned founder of a style that he calls ninjutsu."

For one saying that everyone else is full of bullcrap, this is something of ignorant statement. As a student of the Bujinkan, the martial arts organization that Dr. Hatsumi heads, I would like to say that your statement is absolutely not true. Dr. Hatsumi did not found any martial arts. He was given the title of Souke(head of a household) of 9 different ryu(schools of martial arts), 3 of which are Ninjutsu ryu, from the previous grandmaster, Takamatsu Toshitsugu. Some of the ryu in the Bujinkan date back 1,000 years or more. The scrolls for these ryu are in Japan. Dr. Hatsumi did not found them. It is true that, for whatever reason, Dr. Hatsumi is not currently teaching the Ninja ryu, nor is he saying that he is. However Ninpo ideas and philosophies pervade all of our training, ever if we are not practicing individual Ninjutsu waza.

P.S. Sorry for rambling and getting off topic for the thread.

[Lohan]

i still see no picture lol

[Mark_Li]

"Soke" is an honorary title that is something of a joke to most martial artists. You usually find people with alot of money who contribute to an art with the title "soke." Its almost as bad as those people who call themselves "o-sensei" etc.

Anyway, to reiterate, AGAIN, I dig Bujinkan and I think its a great system with alot of great components. But it isn't ninjutsu. Its not Iga ryu, its not Koga ryu, its not anything of the sort. So, I just call it Bujinkan, and forget about the ninjutsu title.

[Aikisean]

Mark_Li,

To say that all Samurai were braggarts, bullies, rapists is a very generalised and stereo- typical statement. It also says to me that you have a rather big chip on your shoulder. Many musicians, artists, and poets were samurai and not all of them men. I guess the women could be considered braggarts, bullies, and rapists too, huh?

Ninjutsu is a martial art. FINE. It contains offensive and defensive techniques with or without weaponry. OK. The fighting component was still auxilliary to what it truly was used for; covert operations (spying, scouting, stealing, and assasination). The training was always geared towards the mission goals. I do not consider knifing a sentry in the back in the middle of the night on the same martial level that the samurai trained in. Never will.

I too train in traditional martial arts. I train in the 300 year old tradtion of Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo. It is a sword style steeped in Budhist philosophy. We are one of the few styles of iai that train with the live blade exclusively. We train in practical application of the sword and not any mere sword dance with an aluminum replica. I am also a student in the history of Japanese martial arts and you are inaccurate in what you say about the Samurai.

Also, please refrain from insulting other peoples intelligence online. It makes you look like a braggart and a bully. Plus not being able to back up such remarks face to face is a cowardly act in my opinion. But that's just my samurai training stepping up.

[Aikisean]

Understand that the Samurai were a class of people in feudal Japan, not all of them martial arts experts. They were the ruling class of Japan. Granted they were the only ones after the 16th century (1500s) permitted to carry swords and other battlefield weapons. Not ALL the Samurai were experts in fencing. The sword was a status symbol for the Samurai; they would wear it because it was expected of them to.

Veteran warriors, those who survived battles, were the ones who would open up schools of swordmanship and taught what they learned worked in a fight. Over time, these techniques were refined and grouped into styles like Jujitsu and Kenjitsu.

So, when you group Samurai, Ninja, and Monks together, you are grouping two specific sub groups or sects of people (ninjas, and monks) with an entire culture (Samurai). The Samurai could almost (not quite compared to our societal standards of today) be considered as the middle and upper class. That previous statement might rub people the wrong way but it's a fact.

[Cat]

@ Aikisean: You say Wushu is more of a dance then an combat form today.. the wushu i learn is very usefull in combat. And i dont't get a lot of it it's just a part of my Tai Chi training. :)
People are easely mistaken because it looks so gracefull they don't realise you can really hurt or even kill someone depending on your mood. :D

[JoShuA]

dude the samurai sucks, it tips over so easy, just a wannabe jeep.
Ninjas are fast motorcycles.
Ive never watched monk, but it won an emmy, didnt it?

[Aikisean]

Hey Cat,

Sorry for any offense made. My information is from first hand accounts and magazines about the Shaolin Temple today. I believe it now under the control of the Chinese government and they prefer to teach the "tourists" more "fluff" then actual technique. When I referred to Wushu being more dance. I was commenting about how the quality level there has been replaced to satisfy foreign consumer demands. Also, the real priests there don't even teach kung fu anymore, the government has hired wushu athletes to do the instruction. They themselves are graduates of a private school that teaches martial arts exclusively. The name of the school escapes me.

That's about all I know about wushu and shaolin today; I'm more of a Japanese martial arts buff anyways.

Later,

[Cat]

@ Aikisean:

I wasn't offended at all. ;)

But it's true it's hard to find a descent master now a days.. specially in europe. There's a lot of people who go to China for a couple of months, learn a bit of wushu or kung fu in a park and then come back to Europe claiming to be a master.. AND charging way too much money for the classes, which are only two hours a week or so.

It's a pest i tells ya ^^

Glad i'm not one of those poor souls. :smirk:

[faithrenee]

Metalwinds,

I think you need to draw what you feel is most comfortable drawing. Asking people what they like is not going to improve your drawing. I am assuming you are a student because most illustrators who get commissioned work usually have a specific subject with little room to deviate.
For example, If you like basketball, draw things that have to do with basketball. Don't draw something because others think it is cool - draw something that you really care about.
It will be easier and more enjoyable for you.

[die_with_honor]

ninjas are cool and thats all i have to say

[metalwinds]

faithrenee - i am only getting the opinions of people because the assignment i had was to illustrate a poll. i thought ninjas, samurai, and shaolin monks would be cool to draw, so i chose them as my subjects for the poll. thanks for the concern though

as for the rest of you, the drawing is already done.. . i ll post it soon, but feel free to take the conversation further. . .im enjoying all the things i am learning from this thread.

peace

[Jizamurai]

....I appologize if im coming across as a pissed off lunatic... but does anyone understand what im saying? look forward to seein your stuff metalwinds

[metalwinds]

jizamurai, i dont think you understand why i started this poll. i didnt do this to find out what other people think about ninjas, samurai, or shaolin monks, i did this because i had to visually represent a poll for one of my illustration classes. i have my own ideas and i know which one i like the most, but thats not the point.

[CataraX]

thats an interesting subject to illustrate..

id love to see the work

[Jizamurai]

yeah i guess i didn't understand...thanks for clearing that up, i think i just got caught up in the responses, sorry bout that..... anyways i think shaolin is really cool...

[Trigger00]

how has no one drawn anything for this thread yet? jeez get with the program

[st_sleek]

I think all of them are over-used. time for something else. mongols have some pretty interesting traditional outfits. plus, they could kick a samurai or a ninjas butt anytime they wanted. Doubt anyone could stand much of a chance against Shaolin Monks tho, those guys could seriously whoop anyone. Although, they're styles are very much over-used, and i'm sick of nearly any character style based on them.

[Mr. Teatime]

I think they're all awesome. I have to say it depends on the environment, the labarynth, the feild, etc. I think monks are the coolest though because the are simple in appearance yet you can draw them staning on swords and that stuff. Samurai were pretty cool, at least the true ones but most were sleazeballs who abused power and stole stuff. And ninjas were assassins. Very successful assassins, and assassins are cool. What else to say? :cool:



and yes they are overused, but what isn't, really?