DRawing different from painting?

[NOOSE]

I know this probably sounds obviouse to some but, I used to draw all the time, and wasnt too bad, and then started learning painting, am finding it a hell of alot easyer to get into and get better at,...now after a month of painting(photoshop), I cant draw to save my life, ...the principles that work for one dont transfer over to the other so well,

am I corect into asuming this is normal, and drawing and painting are two fairly different ways of thinking?

Im curiouse if anyone else ever noticed a simular issue with the transfer form paint to pencil and vice versa?

I realy had to clear my head of all the stuff I learned about painting, and "think pencil" to get back into drawing again,..
when I break down part of my thinking on the two I come up with this principle,...when I work in pencil Im always thinking shadows first and formost and when I work with paint its usualy were the light hits thats my first concern and shadows last? does this make sence? or have i gon completly mad..

[DragonGX]

To paint you have to draw.. It isnt the tool you use, its what you put on the canvas that counts.

[Signature]

If you worry about shadows while you draw you have a painterly approach when you are drawing.
You need to define shapes through values more than through lines.

You should ask yourself how whatever you are drawing is lit and then how you would draw or paint it.

From light to dark or shadows first shouldn't make a big difference.

[NOOSE]

Signature- I found your comments quite interesting :)
I know every body has a different aproach to either drawing or painting,..I used to just color old scanned in pencil drawings in ps7, then started "lightly" sketching in painter or ps7, and finaly find myself just laying out the shapes using the colors and highlights, kind of pulling away from an actual drawing,..
but this has of cource made just pencil sketching seem a bit more clumbsy :)...wich kind of blows because sketching used to be a great coffee shop pass time, especialy if your company bores the hell out of ya you can just zone out on a doodle :)

[bat]

Sorry to correct you DragonGX, but to paint you do NOT have to draw the subject on the canvas. Drawing is necessary for rendering, which is what most people do. Painting, as the Old Masters did, does not require a drawing on the canvas (many did preliminary sketches, of course). True painting is sculpting your subject in paint, without painting over a drawing, a good example is plein air painting, subject painted as is, outside.

bat

[Signature]

I think what he meant was that you have to learn how to draw before you can paint.
Correct me if I'm wrong DragonGX.

[tinyhands]

Actually, alot of old masters did draw their subject on the canvas first. Reason being, that if they were to make a mistake in an alla prima approach, when they wipe away the mistake the paint on their will still stain the canvas, and they would lose the purity of the white. Seldomly did old masters go alla prima though, that was really their methodology back then. If its plein and such or quick studies thats different.
But to answer Noose's question. Drawing and painting are one in the same. The hard part is making the corallation. If you learned to draw tonally the transition will be easier than if you learned linearly. But it also depends on how long you spent drawing before jumping into paint. In the old masters days, they would spend years just drawing before they were even allowed to touch paint. Because in the end its how well can you draw. Every good painting you see or will ever see is a result of good draughtsmanship. This of course is how it pertains to representational art.
Also, just a suggestion. Alot of people just jump right into digital painting without ever touching a real brush and canvas. Which, in my opinion is a huge mistake. You have undo buttons and such in a program, but with real paint, you have to fix you mistakes and its a lot more laborious. And most people that go from digital to say oils become lazy painters because using real paint requires more control than some program will ever emulate. But i understand the conveniece of a laptop, and not having to set out oils and a palette and such. So my advice would be, learn how to paint with the real thing first, before you paint in front of screen

[bat]

I could have easily mistaken Dragon's intent, I should have had the morning cup first.

Tiny, if you paint over a drawing, you are a renderer, if you paint on plain canvas, you are a painter, by old world standards. Just like the difference between an illustrator and an artist, there are very few artists in a forum like this, and a lot of illustrators. This is just a clear definition, not a slam.

bat

[tinyhands]

No worries bat. But i think we might have misunderstood one another, or i didn't clearly explain in my last post. What i meant to say is, and i hope this comes out right. The painters didn't do a finished drawing on the canvas, but they just got the placement on the canvas and they got the big masses in. They generally laid things in, but not finished them. Once the lay-in was done, they sealed the charcoal(usually vine) with highly terped out paint, and then dust the charcoal off. Obviously not everyone worked this way, but i do know sorolla definately did. But, yeah starting alla prima makes you feel more like a painter, but in the end its the painting that counts.

[NOOSE]

facinating! :) I have been drawing for about 15 years, started out like most kids dreaming of drawing comics, and then found i liked concept based art, and character design, designed a few mascots for local high schools and other logos and the such before finding digital painting to be the most enjoyable, sadly I think I learned a few bad habits from comic style work, but still appreciate some of the stand out artists in comics(sam kieth/jay lee). I can see now what people mean by a difference in fine art as aposed to illustration, i never realy noticed it before, I do find some of the art I find the most appealing is the hybrid stuff, which is in abundance on this site, crosses between painting and illustration or photo and one or both of the mentioned, art seems to be evolving alot these days

[Signature]

I'm sure you know Craig Mullins.
He says he is an illustrator. Not an artist and nothing in-between.
I guess what you like here are mostly illustrations.
And maybe concepts don't fit in either category (fine art / illustration)!?

I wrote about art definitions but it's just what I collected.
I guess not many artists will agree completely with what I wrote.
You can find it here
(Lesson 1: Part 4 - Art? Conceptual art? Illustration?):
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12487

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I think I've gotten worse at drawing since I started Photoshop painting. I paint with acrylics aswell but more careful.
I used to pencil and shade stuff really detailed but there's no point in doing that now since I'm gonna paint it all over. I might aswell do the defining and improvising when I paint.

I'm trying to get back to doing proper line art atm. Line art has lower resolution (details, information) than paintings but reads faster/easier because you can exaggerate the important features more, like silhuettes, facial features...

[NOOSE]

Prometheus|ANJ, I can totaly relate, doodling in pencil today I found myself saying "oh ya thats what I used to do" lol, I enjoy both, I found it interesting seeing how much or how little sketching certain painters do, some have the same results, even though they start with completley different techniques. by the way I checked out your site and was so very impressed, great work...