Bargues/Master Copies

[JParrilla]

In my quest to improve my art skills.. Im always looking for new things to help me. Ive been reading about doing master copies and Bargue studies. What exactly is meant by a master copy? I know its copying a work but which are considered "Master"? Also is drawing Bargues a helpful practice? Is it recommended for someone who is trying to learn foundations of art? In what areas can these help you to improve? Ive also noticed when talking about Bargues, many people talk about measuring.. why is this so important? Thanks in advance.

[JParrilla]

I wanted to add that I read through the thread in this topic called "life drawings". You guys were talking about doing long studies. Something like 40-100 hours. I'm very confused about this. What is the reason for spending this massive amount of time on one drawing of a bargue model? There was talk of measuring with a needle or something like that? Is the goal to create an exact copy of the cast.. Like 100% perfect copy with exactly perfect dimensions? I'm just looking to get this cleared up because someone recomended that I do long studies.. I had no idea what they were :)

[Zazerzs]

Hey ya Bigjoe, thats pretty much the idea of the studies. Training your eye. It begins with alot of measuring, checking and rechecking to see if the sizes are correct.

By doing studies from masterworks you get to see how they did it, try to copy their line quality, volume directions and designs. It can also go deeper than that, by studying how it was layed out on the golden section you can see the devices used in the drawing, painting or whatever. check out these videos, and some of the student work here. There are many studies to give you an idea of what i mean. Also check out the 2 vids.

http://barnstonestudios.com/video/doc/playvideo_doc.html

[JParrilla]

Thanks so much man.. When I get on my computer I'm definetely gonna check out the videos. (I'm on my phone right now goin to school :)) ill post again when I watch them and check out that link. Thanks again

[JParrilla]

thanks man.. very cool website.. I think I understand the reason for the long studies now.. they are quite long though :)

[JParrilla]

Hey I was looking into buying the Cours De Dessin by Charles Bargue. I noticed the only copy amazon has is in French. Do I need to be able to read the text or just copy the plates? Is there a specific book I should get? Also Is there anything I need to learn before copying the plates such as the technique of measuring and such? Im also curious as to what this method is meant to help with.. does it help you to draw better from life?

[Zazerzs]

Classical Drawing Atelier: A Contemporary Guide to Traditional Studio Practice by Juliette Aristides might be a good choice, but honestly i haven't checked it out.

Copying the plates is great but you might miss some of what the author is trying to get across but since I'm unfamiliar with that book as well its hard to say.

when it comes to studies i usually take the same approach as if i was drawing a figure in class. I start by drawing a line representing the main thrust of the pose, then drop a plum line to establish balance. from there its a series of measurements, angle checking, gambits, arabesques ect.

by plum i mean a straight line going vertical. One can use a small thin device , in the past I've used the bottom of a wire coat hanger, cut away from the hanger with wire snips.Held between the thumb and the pointer finger hanging straight down, a good way to check a vertical line.its also good to use for measuring.

by gambit i mean an angel that's carried out though out the piece, if you follow an angle of , lets say , a leg, it might line up with something else, maybe the jawline or neck or something, keep an eye out for them.

arabesques are the sweeping curves that flow through a drawing or piece of art, follow them see where they go.

am i rambling yet :P

[Art_Addict]

If you do decide to 'copy' Bargue plates make sure you get the most out of them. Don't just start with measuring and trying to make an exact replica, try to draw the widths, lengts and angle relationships by eye first and then check to see how far you were off using your measuring devices.
For, rendering I guess it could be useful to learn how to slowly build up your values. Creating a light touch is certainly a virtue.
But I wouldn't torture myself into spending 100 hours trying to nail it exactly. Do a few more in stead and move on to cast drawing.

[JParrilla]

Ok thanks a lot.. I got similar advice at life drawing. It was recommended that I stay in the quick pose section rather than doing the 1 week pose. So that I could draw more figures instead of going all out on one piece. Its more satisfying to finish a long work but the quicker poses are good as well.. I think I might even work on finishin my fast poses after class at home

[JParrilla]

Ive been looking at some reproductions of bargue casts.. and they all have an unbelieveably smooth shading on them. They look exactly like actual plaster cast. Are you guys smoothing with your finger or something similar? or are you just building your values so very slowly and easily that you get that effect? I notice when i attempt it, you can still see my pencil lines as if i lightly hatched

[Kai H]

I really recomend doing the bargue copies.

The idea is to help you to see two dimensional shapes better. It is not about mechanically measuring all little nuances (eaven the bargue book recomends this, but the insturctors in florence academy of art are really against the "drawing with dots system"). Bargue plates also give you very fine example of simplifying lines and tones. They also have very carefully done transistions/edges....

So dont use much of knitting needle or a plumb line. Try just to draw the shape, think about the lenghts of the lines compared to other lines. And the widths and heights of simple shapes. Go from big measurements/shapes to small shapes, so you dont have alot of information in, before the big shapes are correct. Dont "draw with dots", like picking vertical measurement and then horizontal measurement and then merging these to as a dot, and then connecting these dots with lines. It is very mechanical and bad way to draw, it wont develop porperly your sense of proportions, it is almost impossible to draw live model with this system.

Sorry a bit confusing and messy text...

But i would really buy the Bargue Book and Harold Speed - Practice and science of drawing. And start getting in to the academic drawings, because it is really the foundation of all drawing.

[JParrilla]

Thanks a lot.. I cannot get the bargue book from amazon they're all out of em. I've read something about that museum website having copies so ill check that out. Harold speed I'm not familiar with so ill check that out also.. I do have one more question though. Do you think doing all of these academic studies can hurt my prefered style in any way? I know that learning to draw well is learning to draw well regardless of style.. But my love and goals are in the field of more modern comic, environment, illustration, and character creation. I don't always like to draw totally realistically. My guess is that these acasemic and old master studies benefit anyone who loves any type of art.. But I'm just curious about straying to far away from my goal

[GNL]

Ace advice from Baretul.

I have some scans of Bargue plates, a pal scanned them for me - PM me if you want some bigjoe.

[JParrilla]

thanks alot for the advice

[Kai H]

I think that all that studying art academic way can do to you, is to help you to understand better and more precisly what you see, trough simple principles. And drawing/udnerstanding what you see, is the foundation of visual art i think :).

I think atm you have to get clear goal. Just practice in some way, and dont care about style, or is this just the thing that you want to do. Just give the thing solid number of hours on a day. And see how it turns out in copule of months.

... I would still like to say that eaven thou you are not going in measuring all, you still have to have everyting "correct". So when you flip your eyes between the bargue plate and your drawing, it should not show any mistakes in shapes, values or transistions... So it can take you 100 hours... but think that the next is propably going to take less, and the next after that eaven less and so on.

[JParrilla]

Yes that makes sense.. I always make sure that no matter how many academic studies I do, I always set aside time for some black ink work or some other drawing in my favorite styles. As for measuring I will definetely make sure its correct even though I may not use so many measuring techniques like others do.. I just don't wanna make it too technical.. When it gets to technical it doesn't feel like art to me anymore, but instead like some school project :)

[junthi]

Yeah, I think it's a good idea to keep doing your own ink stuff etc between your academic studies. That's what you study for in the end and I think it's an efficient way to learn as you can try applying the things you've learned to different styles. But keep the studies as technical as necessary, it won't do damage to your personal art. Doing all kinds of stuff emphasizing academic drawing will actually accelerate the development of your own style, I think. Even though it is highly technical practice, you will keep learning new stuff all the time and learning new stuff always gives a boost to your personal style because you're pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone.

[JParrilla]

Thanks a lot.. That really helps to know.. Its kinda like I knew already but need mental reinforcement :)

[Art_Addict]

Thanks a lot.. That really helps to know.. Its kinda like I knew already but need mental reinforcement :)


biggjoee5790 : You have started multiple threads broadly asking similar questions on which many people, including myself have kindly responded.

I can understand that you want answers to certain things. But no one is going to give you the key to the land of great draftsmanschip. Only you can.

May I suggest, taking all the advice that has been giving to you and just start drawing?

Good Luck

[JParrilla]

Your right.. I do take all advice given to me though.. And yes I do draw.. A lot. Sometimes I get carried away with questions I agree.. But I kinda worry when I'm self teaching and I just wanna get it right that's all

[Zazerzs]

hey biggjoee do you have a sketchbook or thread started yet? I guess it gets tough to keep giving advice if we can't see where you are at in you drawing ability. Im sure you 'd get more usefull advice if we can see your progress. So if you havent started a thread then please do, and if you do have one please add it to your sig. Thanks! :asspat:

[JParrilla]

No I haven't and your absolutely right. I guess ill have to use a digital camera and take the best pics I can until I get a scanner. Ill start one as soon as I get all of them taken and uploaded

[Kai H]

I mean... dont get me wrong...

Be careful that you dont get too much on the "iam going to do my own style" "self expression" "this is my way to do it" side... I would not say that you are... but really be careful that you do it "right" from the beginning. Eaven measuring too much is better than not knowing what to do and just doing bargues in few hours each.

So if you need to measure alot on the beginning. Just do it. But remember to push seeing the shapes and just drawing them, and not getting too obsesses about measurement.

I mean I drew with the dots like 2 years... and now when I got into the florence academy of art, I really realised that all the best just drew the shapes. So I might emphasize too much about loosing the measurement on my post... If you need to measure alot in your first few bargues, just do it... and then later worry about doing it without measurement. I believe that this is better way, compared to just doing it without any control.

Look also very good examples of drawings, and think how they use lines, values, edges etc... 19th ceuntury and contemporary. Check out Jacob Collins, Douglas Flynt, Anthony Ryder, Carl Dobsky, Andrew Ameral, Daniel Graves, Stephen Bauman, Daniela Astone, Adrian Gottlieb, Jura Bedic, Eddy Hunter, Jean-Leon Gerome, Charles Bargue, William Bouguereau, Jean-Paul Laurens, Ernest Meissonier, JAD Ingres, Albert Edelfelt, Repin, Leon Bonnat, Gustave Boulanger, Sargent, Alma-Tadema, J.W Waterhouse etc... You can find them trough google...

Look also good books about academic drawing, 50's illustration and conceptart (i dont know much about conceptart, so you got to find out about that by your self). I wouldnt buy these all at once, but here something that you can try to search trough amazon or local bookshops. Beaware that there are also alot of bad books around, like kimon nicolaedes, betty edwards and how to draw manga.

Here is few:

Harold Speed - Practice and science of drawing

Gerald Ackerman - Charles Bargue Et Jean-Leon Gerome: Drawing Course

Anthony Ryder - the artists complete guide to figure drawing

Andrew Loomis - Figure Drawing for all its worth (really skilled 50's illustrator, who explains the methods of drawing the 3d form, blocking in the sihlouette, rythm of outlines, balance etc...)

Juliette Aristides - Classical drawing atelier (maybe not as practical as the three above, but still very good, and contains alot of beautiful reproductions of drawings)



Anatomy:

Vanderpoel - Human figure

Stephen Rogers Peck - Atlas of human anatomy

Dr. Paul Richer - Artistic Anatomy

Elliot Goldfinger - Human Anatomy for artists

Robert Hale books

George B. Bridgman Books

[JParrilla]

First of all.. Thank you for all of those book an learning suggestion. I really appreciate it. Secondly, I understang exactly what your saying about style and I am not at all that person that just wants to work in "my style" but understand where I'm coming from. Before I found this place.. I knew nothing about fine art, bargues, copying masters, etc. I didn't even know what it meant to "study" art. All I knew was draw cool stuff :) I know I wasn't to intelligent. Fast foward a few months and everythings changed for me. I'm no longer copying comics or metal gear solid art all day. I'm copying masters, reading books, learning, going to life drawing, etc. I was worried that I would lose sight of what drove to begin with.. Being an illustrator. Although my goal isn't fine art.. I'm well aware that the path to becoming one is the most difficult and most beneficial. I know that by following something like the atelier method and doing master copies and studies and reading bridgman, loomis, speed, vilppu, etc will help me to become a good artist in the best way. I just don't wanna come out on the other end of this journey with amazing skills.. But my imagination and ability to create fictional people, worlds, objects, etc has been completely shut down. I may be totally off about this and it probably won't be the case.. But its a thought. Nevertheless I will be undergoing self taught training including bargues, master works, books, and everything else.. Because after all I want to be a good artist.. Not a master of one particular style

[Art_Addict]

2 books that simply can not be missed from that list would be : Drawing with an open mind (http://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Open-Mind-Reflections-Teacher/dp/0823014657/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213892380&sr=8-1) and Light for the artist (http://www.amazon.com/Light-Artist-Ted-Seth-Jacobs/dp/0823027686/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213892380&sr=8-2)

Both by Ted Seth jacobs.

[Kai H]

Hmm ok biggjoee :) .... Sorry i was propably too harsh. I understand, what you mean, perhaps then it would be best to keep also the comic/illustration etc. stuff going on, at the same time, when you are doing the fine art stuff.

I have both of those Ted Seth Jacobs books. I dont know how to paint (my drawing skills are not superb either) so i cant say anything about the light for the artist. But I didnt really liked the drawing with open mind. It was too unpractical, kind like the Juliette Aristides book. I mean the author didnt give much practical advises, like ryder, loomis and speed. But i guess it would be ok with the other books. But just with it, it is pretty impossible to get anywhere i think.

[Art_Addict]

I have both of those Ted Seth Jacobs books. I dont know how to paint (my drawing skills are not superb either) so i cant say anything about the light for the artist. But I didnt really liked the drawing with open mind. It was too unpractical, kind like the Juliette Aristides book. I mean the author didnt give much practical advises, like ryder, loomis and speed. But i guess it would be ok with the other books. But just with it, it is pretty impossible to get anywhere i think.


I could not disagree more. Ted hits the nail on the head in articulating the problems that people face when trying to draw representationally. No, it is not a how-to manual, thankfully, and that is exactly his intention! True, some of his personal influences got mixed in, that at first glance seem esoteric and might scare beginners off but I feel Ted's books can not be read too soon!
Btw, "light for the artist" is not only extremely useful for painters but to all aspiring draftsmen!

[JParrilla]

Baretul you were not harsh at all.. You were correct. My plan is to follow as close as I can to the atelier methods while I'm in college (I won't be in art school) so ill basically be self teaching. I won't use 100 percent of my time studying those methods. Ill still keep time to do illustrations, comics and other imaginative stuff.. To keep my creative side flowing. But I will use the majority of my time to do bargues, master copies, life drawing, and all the other fine art study procedures. I'm hoping this is a good plan. I'm hoping to use this website as sort of a substitute of a teacher.. Pointing out where I'm goin wrong and helping me to get better

[Anuran]

One could argue that as long as long as your studies are geared toward practicing the fundamentals, then you will be able to apply those fundamentals anywhere. I would personally suggest (and this is entirely based on my opinion) that you look into methods that do not rely too heavily on strictly optical strategies. The Bargue drawing course suggests that you use sight-size strategies for drawing the plates. I do love the book, I own it and have been working on the plates. This book though, like Tony Ryder's book, offers a strictly optical approach. Loomis, Vilppu, Hamm, Bridgman or anyone who uses a version of the Reilly system, will teach a more conceptual understanding of form. It is my assertion that those teaching will be more likely to yield skills that can improve imaginative drawing. Personally, I have been digging and digging and digging some more to find all the resources I can on the Reilly system. I love this stuff.

I just thought I would share this thought with you, the other day I got discouraged while working on a painting, nothing new there. Then I spent the next few days reading books. I have a fairly small, but nice collection of very good art books. Each one of them describes a recommended course of study. Each one of them looks as if it could be totally successful in regards to teaching me new and exciting things about art. The thing is I don't have time to do them all and some of the stuff covers problems that I no longer have. The reason the atelier system was so successful was that the teacher could modify the course of study to fit the student. Since we are discussing self-study, we must fill both roles. The point is this, you cannot follow someone else's path to greatness, you must forge your own. Do your best to identify you biggest problem areas and find ways to work on them. This is where the research from Bargue and others comes in. Use the research to enrich your studies rather than letting a book tell you how to do it all.

On another note, I am studying at PAFA. I don't know alot but, I am happy to share what I know and I check in here all the time. I will say that I am a competent draftsman at this point. My struggles have more to do with paint. Anyway, if you have questions PM me I love to talk about this stuff.

[ABC]

I have to agree with Art_addict here. Drawing With an Open Mind is a great book for beginners. It offers less how-to instruction and more direction than most. Jacobs suggests possibilities that other artist-authors aren't even aware of. You should buy his book and Ryder's. More can be learned from copying the drawings in either book than you could ever hope to get from the Bargue drawings.

[JParrilla]

well I never realized how many different approaches there were. I realize that they are all paths to the same thing but they vary greatly. The Ryder/ Bargue stuff is apparently quite different than the Reilly inspired Bridgman/Loomis stuff. I guess it wouldnt be a good idea for me to simply pick one.. I guess the best thing for me would be to learn both ways, picking out parts of both that help me to improve. The Bridgman and Vilppu books have been helping me most as of late, because I like the idea of everything being created by simple shapes, and how the body is an interlocking of these shapes. But on the other hand those books do not teach much about drawing what you see, and redering form like the Bargue studies do. And now Im hearing about Ryder which I had never heard of. I really need to sort through this stuff. I know that when you are in a school.. theres pretty much a chosen path that you follow based on the instructor, in my case noone can tell me "pick this path" which i guess is a good thing because I can pick the path and mold it in such a way that benefits me.. but at the same time its way more confusing.. Well Ill figure it all out im sure.

[panchosimpson]

But on the other hand those books do not teach much about drawing what you see, and redering form like the Bargue studies do.

The Vilppu book does go into rendering form. Remember that he's trying to get you to think of simple "forms" not simple shapes (shape is part of the equation too later on). Thus if you can visualize the entire volume and understand how light falls on said volume..well...that's the whole foundation of rendering form. In the constructive approach, you seek to understand what causes complex light patterns (generally smaller forms nested inside big ones and thus disrupting the larger patterns) and use light to explain clearly how one form fits into another. The bargues studies aren't a particularly accurate description of light falling on form, they're more about seeing shape, students were supposed to learn that from cast drawing.

The constructive approach is also very useful for drawing from the model, and if you understand what you're seeing then your drawing will look like it. I'm copying drawings by Greuze right now, and I'm doing so constructively, and yeah, if I understand what I'm seeing, my drawing will look like it. In the chapter about combining 2d and 3d, Glenn discusses comparing angles, measuring, negative space and other "academic" practices that are helpful for drawing constructively. I would suggest to study both optical and tactile (Vilppu/sculptural drawing) approaches to drawing, my other teacher told me that really well trained draftsmen usually have knowledge/understanding of both approaches. However, maybe devote more attention to one at the beginning so you don't get thoroughly confused when starting.

hope this helps

[JParrilla]

That definetely helps.. Using both methods sounds like a good plan. Right now I'm attending life drawing at the art students league and I have a bunch of bridgman, vilppu, loomis books. I'm going to learn from those types of methods for now.. They have really been clicking for me. Once I go off to school Ill start to tie in the bargue approach more.. Since I might not have the life drawing class.. Ill get myself some casts to draw as well as drawing from bargue plates. I'm basically planning on doing just about everything.. And when stuff starts to work.. Ill guess ill know it.. I hope so at least.

[the_allejo05]

yeah pancho is right..both methods are excellent..some people that learn only one way are limited by the other..constructive is more about knowing and sight size is more about seeing..when you draw you combine both and try to balance out either or..also never forget the natural way..which is how you drew before you learn any technique and that way of drawing is feeling, but it is there..a lot of people loose this natural way because they stick to a method..but forget their own way of reading nature..some of my early drawings when i knew nothing of either way..were in way truly beautiful, but lack depth or great acuracy..but still they are really nice..at the end you want to combine the three..also is good if you decide to copy a few masters that you like..(not many people do this and they dont really learn a language, they stuff looks good,but not strong enough,nor they cant do what the masters did..forget the artist attitude of today and be an aprentice..who is learning his trade..and the first thing they did to them is to seat and draw from his master collectionof drawings ..first learned to crawl..then nature would be open to you ,and you will be able to walk ,as you know how to approach it properly..)