How do I learn Advanced Modeling, NURBS in 3DS Max?

[bryanedds]

Hi, I'm thinking of developing a 3D content pack for game developers, but have a few questions.

First, here is what I know - I'm pretty good at basic low-poly modeling characters and objects. But, my goal is to be able to use NURBS to create models who can be parametrically adjusted in a way that lowers their poly count so that they can be used in today's real-time games, and also in a way that increases their poly count so they stay marketable for tomarrow's realtime games.

I'm wondering if such a thing is possible. I have not done much of anything with NURBS, but I figure that is what I need to model in a way that makes object poly count easily adjustable.

Secondly, I need a resource (books, especially) to teach me somewhat comprehensively about how to use all the advanced modeling techniques and tools available in 3DS Max 5. I have yet to figure out how to use NURBS properly, and I want to learn all the advanced techniques I need to build my skillset to a very advanced point. Any help pointing me in the right direction is appreciated :)

[Boris]

Check this site out: www.3dbuzz.com
register there and take free online courses.

[Drone]

Keep in mind that even though I am a die-hard Maxer, I have to admit that Max's NURBS are crap. If you do want to get into NURBS modelling and are reluctant to try some Maya, try Rhino -- it works quite seamlessly with Max.

Good luck and best wishes,
Drone

[bryanedds]

Thanks! I love the link! Someday I will meet my potential :)

[Wetterschneider]

Bryan, I don't mean any disrespect, my objective is just to help you out - but I think you are barking up the wrong tree - NURBS are simply (in my opinion) not an effective modeling process for real-time application. If you want to investigate on the fly level of detail mechanisms - there are more effective technologies that are rooted in poly modeling that might be worth your time...

[bryanedds]

From what I have seen so far, NURBS don't seem to be the answer I'm looking for. I thought they'd work in this fashion, but this particular application doesn't seem workable.

But that's okay! I enjoy straight low-poly modeling with primitiaves and a small supplement of NURBS anyway! But, I would be glad to know what other modeling techniques you could recommend :) I'm quite the comparative newb, I'm afraid.:chug:

Thanks!

[lowpolymatt]

knowing nurbs wont get you a job in the games industry...

[poly_cube]

some people even shun nurbs modeling. haha its kinda funny to hear them shoot off.

The only time I ever used nurb modeling, is to get the basic shape of the object-nothing more. Ever tried to texture a nurbs object? I just can't see nurbs model being used in the game industry any time soon. If you want a high detail character, that looked like 20k poly then normal mapping is the way to go. Speaking of which I think its going to be implemented a lot in the future (Assuming the developer has the resources to research it and implement it the game engine.)

I think maya is one of the better packaged for nurbs modeling too.

[Drone]

See guys, it's a bit more complicated than that :)

Nurbs modelling as such is great, particularly for Organic models. The fact that every point on the curve/surface is controllable brings great advantages. Maya uses NURBS modelling to the fullest. Indeed, applying shaders to a NURBS model is often tricky, that's why Maya gives you the option of using the Hypershade to create complex procedural materials, and also to use Artisan as a tool for Surface Material application.

In Max, I personally find the plain vanilla splines to be extremely useful when using them together with Polys. However, to repeat again, Max NURBS leave much to be desired yet.

If you work for gamez, you will hardly ever look at NURBS. Nevertheless, there are many useful applications for Max's Splines in low-poly modelling. I'll try to dig out some old Aircraft gamez-poly-count models done with Splines in Max. It was easier and more accurate than poly modelling.

Best,
Drone

[Drone]

Here we go guys:

http://ottovondrone.tripod.com/f6f/f6f.htm

Do not pay attention to the skin, it's only a half-finished texture. The model is c. 2 600 tri's (if I recall correctly, 2 590) and some of the parts are poly-modelled (the details, particularly the landing gear and the cockpit) while the fuselage and the wings are spline-modeled and then converted to polys. Trust me, for objects like this one splines rock :) Also, if you think for, for example, level modelling for racers, railshooters, etc., lofting splines (in Max) or birailing/lofting (in Maya) is by far the best way to go. In fact, I can tell you that from recent personal experience :)

So, bottomline, a credit should be given where a credit is due. Spline-based modelling does have a place in the gamez industry. In fact, you have a very good control over the polycount of a game model while using splines. NURBS, as a particular family of splines, do not have a direct application as such. Yet, for some things, they are more useful than polys. Using NURBS directly simply requires a different type of game engine (yet I think I have heard of only one game using mainly NURBS). Denying yourself the options given by the vast array of modelling techniques is, in the end, at least a bit counter-productive.

Best,
Drone

P. S. And just another example:

http://ottovondrone.tripod.com/fokker_02/fokker_02.htm

The same technique used -- details are poly modelled, wings/fuselage -- spline modelled. The whole model is 2 410 tri's. The trick with using the splines is that you manage to save polys from the bigger parts so that you can add detals that enhance greatly the model :)

P. P. S. DAmmit, forgot to add :) The engine details of the second model are also lofted splines. So, even for details they do help a lot :)

[Wetterschneider]

Sure spline modeling is used by modelers to build certain types of objects, that is, lofts such as airplane fuselages and boat hulls - no doubt about it. No one is knocking splines or trying to not give credit to this useful modeling technique.

I done a lot of industrial design and my tool of choice is Rhino. It's a fabulous program for building precise models that eventually will be produced at a factory.

It's been suggested that Nurbs are excellent for organic modeling, but I haven't found this to be the case for game development. Could anyone show examples of organic modeling? The plane models do kick ass, and came out really well, as to be expected when using splines - but I'm confused... are they organic??

[Drone]

Wetterschneider,

Of course they are not organic :) This is all I managed to dig out from the archives to show.

However, as soon as I have a free hour, I'll model a low-poly head with splines -- it is really easy. In a way, it is even easier than with polys, because it is more intuitive, you follow the loops in a much easier way, and you see the head quite well in perspective with two crossed reference plains. I am talking of Max Spline modelling here, even though with Maya it is even easier for me.

One of the good things is that the Surface modeifier controlls the level of detail to a considerable extent -- as much as the Spline cage detail allows. So you can control very easily the LOD switches just changing the Surface modifier value. If you are really keen, you can even CrossSection a head out of horizontal closed curves :) All these approaches are just as easy as Poly modelling, it just takes some time for practice and some fantasy :)

So, as soon as I can, I'll drop the example :)

Best,
Drone

[poly_cube]

Its always who you ask.

I’m not sure if nurbs is easier than polys for say, since you have to wory about (detaching the surface-reattaching the surface –changing rebuilding the surface) etc.

While polys its just…extrude and cut face……that’s pretty much the only tools in your
whole arsenal and just pushing and pulling verts like a mad man.

But again, its who you ask- I seen incredible models in polys and nurbs (neither is bad- knowing both is better)

Although on the LOD- it does sound easier to make it in nurbs vs poly; however, I doubt it’s going to borrow polys from the right place in the model. The model will always look better when the edges are hand selected and artistically chosen. Since the computer isn’t going to realize “oye…I shouldn’t borrow from here since its not really needed.”

On a side note- I love to take the surface of an object and extrude the poly face to a spline to either get an effect of a pipe/wires. its great.