sorry world

[Jason Manley]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=c-q4MDQ0cDI&feature=user

someday we will educate our own people.

[Blaz]

Videos like that just make me angry. :(

[Gloominati]

That' just fucking disgusting.

seriously I just can't find any words for what I feel for people like that

[daestwen]

Wow. :/ It's like trying to listen to the logic of a three year old...

[Ilaekae]

The critical word here is "people."

I can educate people.

I can't educate bottom-feeding shit-eating brain-dead racist assholes like these. They just...ain't people...

[serhc]

on obama's muslim faith: 'yah i think it's a smear tactic...but i think people have the right to know!'

on the candidiates: 'hillary knows what the pledge of alliegiance is, hillary knows- could probably sing the star spangled banner better than anybody. so could john mccain! at least i know that they believe in this country. they believe in who we are, and how when times are bad, we pull together 'cause we're americans! but you know, the whole yankee-do-it ethic yknow...um...i just dont sense that from him.'

AMEN. it's what ive been trying to tell people all along. barack hussein osama - i mean, how could he NOT be muslim and anti american? simple logic, c'mon

[Gloominati]

The critical word here is "people."

I can educate people.

I can't educate bottom-feeding shit-eating brain-dead racist assholes like these. They just...ain't people...

uh yes, right, these were the words I couldn't find :)

[Aly Fell]

These morons can’t even find the courage to actually verbalise their bigotry. Every excuse possible to deny the truth of their attitudes.

People like this haven’t realised yet that they are the ‘baddies’.

[Sorknes]

Uhm.... they can't actually realise how bad they sound?

As long as they actually don't say straight out "because he's not white", but try to cover it in all kinds of excuses, they have to know at some level that they're probably pretty fucked up, right?

Or?

[wassermelone]

That really is disgusting.

[Barber]

Uhm.... they can't actually realise how bad they sound?

As long as they actually don't say straight out "because he's not white", but try to cover it in all kinds of excuses, they have to know at some level that they're probably pretty fucked up, right?

Or?

they know their fucked up,and they are proud of it.thats how racists roll.

[Oni Rem]

After watching that video...
Man, "E Pluribus Unum" my ass!!

[nonie]

We can win without West Virginia. Let them stew in their own filth.

[JL.Alfaro]

Wait a minute...
why do a report on what people in a small town in West Virginia county think?
Have you guys ever been to W.V.? how about any of the "out of reach" central state counties?...I have, I lived in Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, visited or drove into Colorado, W.V., georgia, and everything in between.

being Hispanic:
I was denied service at a local bar in Missouri
I was denied service at a restaurant in Arkansas
I was arrested for driving a vehicle less than 5 years old (explanation: you people never drive new cars, its gotta be stolen) Arkansas
I met a man who was married to his eldest daughter- Arkansas
I was harassed by the local KKK in Missouri/Arkansas state line (they threw full beer bottles and cans at me from the bed of their 4x4 truck)
I had a car, stripped, dismantled, I was arrested strip searched and held without bail for 24 hours all because "you people always have something"- when the "cops" did not find anything..they let their dog take a shit in the back seat of the car, and left me in the middle of the highway to put my car back together (door covers, seats, rugs, ceiling,dashboard, all laid out on the road-thank God it was a Rabbit)
Mississippi- was aggressively held for 4 hours by the MHP for fitting a description of an assault n robbery. The description: Hispanic male.

Thing is, we all know how those people are...we all know what their thought process consists of...backward, inbred forefathers who pass their traditions and culture down to the newest strain of human trash.
WE, the modern people, the educated people, the people who embrace advancement with open arms...we know what THEY are like, nobody likes to talk about it, but we know.
so Im not gonna act all shocked and appalled by the lil video, cause I know how they are, I know how they have been and I know what their children will be like.

No surprise there Jason, none what so ever to me.


PS. this is coming from a state where it is LEGAL and recorded in a state law, that it is legal to take home roadkill for supper. Roadkill....for supper.

[Barber]

Wait a minute...
why do a report on what people in a small town in West Virginia county think?


hmmm,I dunno...i can think of a word..starts with C ends in Y....

good post btw.

[smugbug]

These morons can’t even find the courage to actually verbalise their bigotry. Every excuse possible to deny the truth of their attitudes.

People like this haven’t realised yet that they are the ‘baddies’.

It's the "I'm not racist, BUT..." crap that I hear all the time in my corner of Oregon. Granted, it's less and less these days, but it's sad that now, in the 21st Century, it's still out there.

[paran0id]

"I can't educate bottom-feeding shit-eating brain-dead racist assholes like these. They just...ain't people..."

Strong words. What is you final solution?

[s.ketch]

I doubt everyone in West Virginia is racist. They only interviewed a handful of people and all of them were democrats. I like how they label themselves "The Real News" though. Lets play on stereotypes where everyone in West Virginia are toothless hillbillies who spend their nights playing the banjo and drinking moonshine. We cant call the whole south racist anymore because Obama is winning in most southern primaries, so lets go to the one place we can still call racist! Yee haw West Virginia. God forbid you go into Charleston, South Carolina and call the all the people with dark skin racist for voting based on equally shallow and uneducated reasons including that Obama is black.

Jumping on a bandwagon is ignorant, even if it is a socially acceptable and the "right" one. Skepticism is the default position. Global tax act? Change? I dont think so. I guess im racist though.

Edit: You cant force people to be smart, you can't force them to do the right thing. People have the right to be racist, people have the right to dislike and hate other people (as long as its not harassment or violent of course) Thats true freedom. People have the right not to open the door for you, not to let you get over on the highway and to not say please and thank you. Its their choice and a choice everyone should have. I'd rather have a few people who honestly choose to be good and do the right thing than to have everyone forced to be nice. Life is all about making choices, even the making the wrong ones. Love everyone, especially those who hate you.

[smugbug]

Wait a minute...
why do a report on what people in a small town in West Virginia county think?
Have you guys ever been to W.V.? how about any of the "out of reach" central state counties?...I have, I lived in Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, visited or drove into Colorado, W.V., georgia, and everything in between.



Dude, come to Oregon - one of the whitest states in the nation (and not a wealthy state by any means). However, at least Obama is going to win BIG here.

That warms my heart a bit.

[J Wilson]

The funny thing is these chest thumping "Americans" don't realize that they are exactly the same as the ignorant chest thumping "Muslims" on the other side (not the majority of Muslims, just the select few ignorant radicals and backward tribal areas where it's still ok to kill your wife or sister, and rape is considered an appropriate way to teach a woman a lesson). Full of hate and prejudice, and fear, and ignorance, and unwilling to even consider a change of outlook.

Man, I'd love to take any of them and pop them down in the real world. Eh strike that, I'd actually rather just seal them away from everyone else. Let them have their hill billy backward community, just somewhere where the rest of us never encounter them.

[Barber]

dave chapelle on racism down south.....open racism...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU28Pv26nNQ

[nonie]

Buckweisel, Clinton had a lead in the "black vote" at the beginning, and the black vote migrated as she kept distancing them. They're not just voting for Barack because he's black. That's probably a part of it, sure, but the "black vote" always tends to be Democratic and the Clintons had a free pass, people used to call Bill an "honorary Brother." She had to work to lose that vote. Obama has to work to try to get people like these West Virginians to even look past his middle name.

[Mark Bot]

Newsflash West Virginia: It's not the 19th Century anymore

god... i like to say i'm pretty easy-going, but this is just infuriating. ...

[JL.Alfaro]

...I'd actually rather just seal them away from everyone else. Let them have their hill billy backward community, just somewhere where the rest of us never encounter them.

I think thats what we've been doing all along, but every once in a while a new reporter comes in and tries to shock the rest of us by showing the remote, dislocated people within our country. They wont change, they don't want to change...thats the problem, thats their problem. Their ignorance can only be changed by their own will and acceptance,.. like a tick sucking on a bulls balls, it grows if you dont remove it, and the longer it remains the harder and more painful it will be to remove.(not a personal experience btw). a bull doesnt know it has a bloodsucking tick on its balls, and if you try to remove it, it will hurt and it will kick you in the face. How do you explain to a bull the procedure? or how an ectoparasite thrives on its blood? you cant.

"Ignorance, the root and stem of every evil" - Plato

[aussiedeza]

meh doesn't matter what country or what race, its extremely easy to find uneducated inmorale retards, all i have to say is i love "Darwin's Law" of natural selection i just wished it would hurry the hell up but then again the way society supports dumbness maybe intelligent people are slowly become more extinct and the mentally handicapped will take over the world!!!.

[Sorknes]

I have to truly say I'm as ignorant as them then.

Because I didn't realise it's actually THAT bad out there.



Too much faith in humanity, I guess.

[aussiedeza]

I have to truly say I'm as ignorant as them then.

Because I didn't realise it's actually THAT bad out there.



Too much faith in humanity, I guess.

I like the motto "A person is smart, people are stupid."

It appears half true anyway.

[James Kei]

I have faith.
I'm hoping what will save us is the new information superhighway. And what I mean by new is the recent spike in the amount of information flooding the net.
Think about it. Before the Bush regime, we didn't have Wiki or youtube or anything really.
It seems the most closed minded folks in this vid are over 50 years old. Which is expected considering the time period and the location in which they were raised.
How many grandparents do you know that spend any time online?
The new generation of young Americans are glued to the internet, absorbing information in mass quantities, thus opening their minds. Which will make them capable to decide what is right or wrong on their own, to see things from all angles, and not make decisions based on what daddy told them.

It's amazing how much I've learned from this little glowing box in front of me.

[aussiedeza]

Good point Kei

[daestwen]

I have faith.
I'm hoping what will save us is the new information superhighway. And what I mean by new is the recent spike in the amount of information flooding the net.
Think about it. Before the Bush regime, we didn't have Wiki or youtube or anything really.
It seems the most closed minded folks in this vid are over 50 years old. Which is expected considering the time period and the location in which they were raised.
How many grandparents do you know that spend any time online?
The new generation of young Americans are glued to the internet, absorbing information in mass quantities, thus opening their minds. Which will make them capable to decide what is right or wrong on their own, to see things from all angles, and not make decisions based on what daddy told them.

It's amazing how much I've learned from this little glowing box in front of me.

Actually, there was an article I read... It was either in Discover or in Scientific American, but they have been doing studies on it, and it actually seems to AFFIRM our bigotry and ridiculous ideas. As if we have to defend them against the whole world instead of just ourselves, or something. :(

I'd like to think that it would happen, though. Canada's not so bad... I've lived both in very small towns, and then here in toronto... In toronto, at least, minorities are supposed to outnumber "whites" by 2012, so that should give you an idea :P

Ultimately i think people will just have to be forced to associate with each other for long enough that they forget why they hated each other in the first place...

[Jason Snair]

Maybe we and this site aren't the base case senarios, but think about how many people you interact with on this site alone. Think about how many members from all over the world there are right now in this one community.

The internet is definitely going to have a tremendous impact on the way people from different nations interact with one another. Maybe certain sects aren't quite there yet, but given time, it'll take.

I kinda wish I could view the video, but I've go no speakers here. I take comfort in the fact that regardless of the outcome of the WV primary, it seems that Obama will be the democratic nominee.

[Art_Addict]

Time and time again.... it surprises me how so many people are so offended ( and VERY rightfully so ) by the display of racism and discrimination based on color, yet seem to not notice or barely notice discrimination towards women in , and let me stress this , ALL cultures, ALL ages and ALL nations throughout the world! :(

[Goog]

James, have you ever read, "The World is Flat"? It is quite a hefty book but a very enjoyable read, I think you would love it. Really gets the brain gears turning.

[J Wilson]

meh doesn't matter what country or what race, its extremely easy to find uneducated inmorale retards, all i have to say is i love "Darwin's Law" of natural selection i just wished it would hurry the hell up but then again the way society supports dumbness maybe intelligent people are slowly become more extinct and the mentally handicapped will take over the world!!!.


Look for a movie called "Idiocracy", which is about exacly that. A very average guy accidentally gets frozen and wakes up in the future, where he finds he is now the smartest man on earth. This is because over time the intelligent people would say things like "Now isn't really the best time to have a child, we're working on our careers." Meanwhile ignorant rednecks are having 12 kids, and cheating on their wives and having even more kids. Funny as hell, written by the guy who does King of the Hill I think, and starring Luke Wilson

[luverly_marie]

It makes me sad, because these are the very people that could be helped the most by a different person. I'm not going to judge them, because I know that they grew up not knowing any better. Some have probably never left their little home town in West Virginia. I do think that Hillary has some responsibility for it, she's rounding them up like sheep. Promoting that mentality even more, so she can get useless votes.

Oh well, all we can do is push for education and get these people out of the my great-grand-pappy-did-this-back-in-the-day mentality. -_-

[Robert.B]

That really anoyed the fuck out of me. I think what I hate worst then a bigget is a bigget who cant live up to there own obvious narrow minded views. If your Racits just fucking say so dont tip toe around the subject like a pussy while hidding behind false miss informed allegations.

[Mike Frank]

This was part of an email I got from a well established GOP conservative. I met him at a straw poll when I went to vote for Ron Paul. Now I'm on his mailing list haha.. This guy had some pretty good credentials.. didn't think he would circulate something like this. To his credit it's not likely he wrote it, but he forwarded it.

Kind of scary, wouldn't you think!!!
According to The Book of Revelations the anti-christ is:
The anti-christ will be a man, in his 40s, of MUSLIM descent, who will deceive the nations with persuasive language, and have a MASSIVE Christ-like appeal....the prophecy says that people will flock to him and he will promise false hope and world peace, and when he is in power, will destroy everything. Is it OBAMA??
I STRONGLY URGE each one of you to repost this as many times as you can! Each opportunity that you have to send it to a friend or media outlet...do it!
If you think I am crazy..Im sorry but I refuse to take a chance on the "unknown" candidate

[Peter Coene]

I think that they might be reacting to things like this:

http://www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?rsrcID=2036

Now, I myself usually vote Republican though I'm not a member of either party. However with this election I don't like any of the candidates, though I will admit I like Hillary the least. Here's something that the Dems might want to think about; If the election ends up being between Hillary and McCain I'll vote McCain, if its Obama and McCain I'm not sure who I'll vote for, and I think lots of the other moderate minded people who usually vote republican think that way as well. With that in mind, I think the Democratic party has a better chance of winning if they go with Obama.

[fanficbug]

Wait a minute...
why do a report on what people in a small town in West Virginia county think?
Have you guys ever been to W.V.? how about any of the "out of reach" central state counties?...I have, I lived in Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, visited or drove into Colorado, W.V., georgia, and everything in between.

being Hispanic:
I was denied service at a local bar in Missouri
I was denied service at a restaurant in Arkansas
I was arrested for driving a vehicle less than 5 years old (explanation: you people never drive new cars, its gotta be stolen) Arkansas
I met a man who was married to his eldest daughter- Arkansas
I was harassed by the local KKK in Missouri/Arkansas state line (they threw full beer bottles and cans at me from the bed of their 4x4 truck)
I had a car, stripped, dismantled, I was arrested strip searched and held without bail for 24 hours all because "you people always have something"- when the "cops" did not find anything..they let their dog take a shit in the back seat of the car, and left me in the middle of the highway to put my car back together (door covers, seats, rugs, ceiling,dashboard, all laid out on the road-thank God it was a Rabbit)
Mississippi- was aggressively held for 4 hours by the MHP for fitting a description of an assault n robbery. The description: Hispanic male.

Thing is, we all know how those people are...we all know what their thought process consists of...backward, inbred forefathers who pass their traditions and culture down to the newest strain of human trash.
WE, the modern people, the educated people, the people who embrace advancement with open arms...we know what THEY are like, nobody likes to talk about it, but we know.
so Im not gonna act all shocked and appalled by the lil video, cause I know how they are, I know how they have been and I know what their children will be like.

I'm so sorry, on behalf of my state (Arkansas), for that happening to you. :(

Not all of their children are like that, though. Yeah, my older (senile) family members still have occasional "blargh Hispanics" (but of course they all all Hispanics "Mexians" -_-) moments, and it's just one of those things that everyone in my family has to tolerate. They can't even remember their own names anymore, so how are you going to get across such a complex issue as racism and why it's wrong? I tried for a long time by stopped around the time they started calling me by my cousin's name. Admittedly these people won't be voting, so a lot of people think they're not part of the problem. But the members of my family and I do, even though there's not much we can do about it.

Time and time again.... it surprises me how so many people are so offended ( and VERY rightfully so ) by the display of racism and discrimination based on color, yet seem to not notice or barely notice discrimination towards women in , and let me stress this , ALL cultures, ALL ages and ALL nations throughout the world! :(

Yeah, anybody who doubts that should see the statue of Mary Jane from the Spiderman series doing Spidey's laundry (http://devildoll.livejournal.com/750924.html), in a thong, with her pants ripped up, pushing her butt out, and (to add insult to injury) wearing a pearl necklace. For those of you who don't know why that last one is so offensive, look here for the connotations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_necklace_%28sexuality%29) of "pearl necklace" (mildly NSFW).

It sold out very quickly after coming out, and when complaints started coming in from women who were offended, they were deleted by the statue's creator. Letters sent to Marvel got a canned response (quote: "Our product is not produced to make a political or social statement but is fashioned after entertainment properties currently in the market place. We suggest that if you do find the Mary Jane product offensive that you refrain from viewing that web page."), and blogs on the subject were trolled by such lovely specimens as this:

http://devildoll.livejournal.com/750924.html?thread=6828364#t6828364
http://devildoll.livejournal.com/750924.html?thread=6841164#t6841164

(they're the same person by the IP addresses, btw)

It wasn't even the feminist blogs that got inundated with this crap: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=175677

There were blogs, counter-blogs, threads, counter-threads, and finally tons of news on it. When did this happen? . . . May 2007.

If you don't understand why we wimmins would get upset at this (even if you are a woman)? Please read this post (http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/214607.html) and the comments on the original blog. If that doesn't enlighten you then I don't know what will. :shrug:

So yes, sexism, racism, classism, ableism, and every other -ism under the sun is still alive and well. If you don't know about it . . . well, I guess you should consider yourself lucky, but know that it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

*Gets of the soapbox*

[TASmith]

Having lived in the south for 15 years I can honestly say, these aren't even the bad ones.

"I met a man who was married to his eldest daughter- Arkansas"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man, I probably knew him, probably went to my school.

[aesir]

well I think they're all just adooorrable.

When my grandma was getting older and getting a bit senile, she got a bit racist too. She wasnt mean or anything, but when we'd go out to eat somewhere and there was a black family nearby, she'd be like "ah well isnt that nice that they're letting the negroes eat here too."

I just think of these people as bit senile. Getting mad at people never works it just makes em stubborn, but if the whole world just treated them as senile, they'd change much faster.

[kingshaj]

i think the thread title says it all best

i truly am ashamed...and sorry to the rest of the globe
without a hint of humor....i really believe that the usa is the largest single propagator of ignorance in the world.

there really are 2 Americas

[aesir]

nah kingshaj, the whole world is like this.

[Blahm]

dont worry guys we will all be slaves pretty soon anyways. Then you will have to be up close and personal with those people while you break big rocks into littler rocks.

[Brendan N]

This was part of an email I got from a well established GOP conservative. I met him at a straw poll when I went to vote for Ron Paul. Now I'm on his mailing list haha.. This guy had some pretty good credentials.. didn't think he would circulate something like this. To his credit it's not likely he wrote it, but he forwarded it.

Kind of scary, wouldn't you think!!!
According to The Book of Revelations the anti-christ is:
The anti-christ will be a man, in his 40s, of MUSLIM descent, who will deceive the nations with persuasive language, and have a MASSIVE Christ-like appeal....the prophecy says that people will flock to him and he will promise false hope and world peace, and when he is in power, will destroy everything. Is it OBAMA??
I STRONGLY URGE each one of you to repost this as many times as you can! Each opportunity that you have to send it to a friend or media outlet...do it!
If you think I am crazy..Im sorry but I refuse to take a chance on the "unknown" candidate

Wait, doesn't he need to get into power to become the anti-christ? If he doesn't get elected, he can't be the anti-christ.
Those crazy christians had better vote him in so the prophecy can be fulfilled! Who knows how long they'll have to wait for another opportunity like this!

[kingshaj]

aesir:
i hear ya....but we have larger clumps of unadulterated homogenic isolation...with more political weight, than any 2nd world nation...

"no shoes. no shirt. no vote." i say.

[Hyskoa]

Saying sorry won't help much. Here's a gun, it'll make a difference.
Now go enjoy yourselves.

[fanficbug]

Wait, doesn't he need to get into power to become the anti-christ? If he doesn't get elected, he can't be the anti-christ.
Those crazy christians had better vote him in so the prophecy can be fulfilled! Who knows how long they'll have to wait for another opportunity like this!

I lol'd heartily. Sometimes that's all you can do at sh*t like this.

[Sickbrush]

absolutely outrageous. no really, this is the thing i've always hated about some americans [i'd like to underline, i said some]:
Their way is always the right way.
They have a problem with african-american people just because .. ..
.. ..
exactly.
They think my country is a USA STATE. [with the assurance - "i've learned this at geography classes!"]

on and of course the common: "cause we're americans."
THAT's why i love conceptart.org, and that's why i love our fuckin global tribe. Fuck white people, fuck blacks, hispanics, asians, hindus and so on. Let's all get the fuck together and do some art. Human is human. Worldwide.
Politics' always been a bitch.
Let's at least hang on to our beautiful tribe. I know i will.

[fanficbug]

Let's at least hang on to our beautiful tribe. I know i will.

Amen. :)

[Dan!]

all media is propaganda- we as artists should know this. Note that only one person says that they "are not ready" for a black president. The rest had as much an argument *not* to vote for Barrack as most who *do* support him. The argument- "because he will bring change" is as equally flimsy as " because I don't think he has the experience". Not to mention the racist statement of too many "rednecks". No ones crucifying the "former member of city councel woman" on her baseless arguments. The narrator puts the words in these peoples mouths by consistantly stating the cause is racism and the title automatically damns anybody in the video who states they won;t vote for him. I guess when the media constantly tells people to buy in to the idea that white people who live in the fly-over states(between New York and California) are all mouth breathing, inbread racists it makes it easy.

*note* I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist or that "nobody" is influenced by prejudice. I am however saying that when viewing this type of media be aware of its purpose.

[aea]

Depressing, but I'm not surprised. My best friend lives in WV. The state has more problems than just racism. They're living in poverty and most of the things we take for granted aren't the norm down there. Like decent health care, good school systems, etc... stories can be told.

I feel it is our fault when things like this happen. We've become so apathetic, so focused on being consumers and pessimistic that we don't even care what goes on in other people's lives anymore. We don't even notice that our values are going backwards so of course we're ignorant to news like this because we take these things for granted.

Of course this isn't everybody. But a great deal of society has gone this way.

I'm proud that I was raised in Houston, TX. Minority is majority there. I grew up with hispanics and blacks, never with "my own kind". Now I live in a mostly white community and I've seen both ends. My family also was particularly racist.

I remember my uncle (not by blood) brought his family over and they lived in the expensive suburbs right by NASA (Kingwood or Clear lake TV, can't remember which). They were teaching their children to be ethnocentric/money centric from the start. I was so embarassed when their 8 year old asked me why the paint was peeling from our walls. It wasn't really that bad, just an old house. But their daughters were taught that walls were pristinely painted and that all good/normal people were rich and generally white/asian (his wife is Vietnamese).

The narrator puts the words in these peoples mouths by consistantly stating the cause is racism and the title automatically damns anybody in the video who states they won;t vote for him.

You've obviously never been to WV. It's not just this video, it's earned a reputation for a reason. By people in MD and other people who have been there. Though I've met nice people there.

[kingshaj]

DECYPL :
while i concede the piece had a clear bias,

i doubt, as you imply, that most northern dems, who are voting for '08ama, are voting because of his race...and that "because he will bring change" is not code for race for urbanites. I belive it is meant quite literally in the blue states.

where as the i do believe that, southern dems switching parties, over his nomination is racially based...it pretty cut and dried difference.

propaganda aside, racism has a headquarters to deny that is not to know america at all.

[Jasonwclark]

The state of West Virginia is raped on a daily basis to provide energy for the rest of the East Coast and China. What the Coal industry has been doing in that part of the country for the past 100 years is beyond shameful, so it shouldn't be very surprising that ignorance runs rampant in Appalachia. Powerful interests have engineered it that way. We want them to remain uneducated hillbillies, that way we can continue to strip their mountain tops and destroy their environment with impunity.

Tap water in many parts of West Virginia comes out of the faucet black from all the processing. We're lucky that people can still speak down there, with all the chemicals and blasting that's going on.

[aea]

Tap water in many parts of West Virginia comes out of the faucet black from all the processing. We're lucky that people can still speak down there, with all the chemicals and blasting that's going on.

I think our trash goes to WV now. Because the people there are willing to sell their land to make the money because it's probably the only way SOME of those people can get out of poverty. It's a lot better than working in poor conditions.

[Jasonwclark]

Yeah, its really sad
http://www.burningthefuture.com/

kQPYKD4WGew&hl

[Peter Coene]

aesir:
i hear ya....but we have larger clumps of unadulterated homogenic isolation...with more political weight, than any 2nd world nation...

"no shoes. no shirt. no vote." i say.
I beleive those groups are there to balance out the number of ignorant leftist whackjobs that we have as well. My hopes are that all in all it will balance out as "moderate" which I am perfectly fine with.

[kingshaj]

the he-haw crowd was artificially placed there"? to ideologically balance the nation?

and where did they get them to begin with?..i guess they weren't wanted there either...sigh

wow, thats a conspiracy theory i had not heard.

[kingshaj]

Jasonwclark:

that is truly heart wrenching shit,
i just hope they vote for the party most receptive to the reform needed to solve the issue. regulation on big polluters for instance isn't well received in the south because it loses jobs...its a catch 22, without some serious reform.

i think us states should start asking for foreign aid.
it gotten that bad. katrina etc.....

[Peter Coene]

the he-haw crowd was artificially placed there"? to ideologically balance the nation?

and where did they get them to begin with?..i guess they weren't wanted there either...sigh

wow, thats a conspiracy theory i had not heard.
nah, conspiracy implies something thought out. I see it as something that happens naturally; sort of a xen/yin and yang type of occurance. As for how it came about I'm guessing that both goups are trying to outdo one another.

To tell the truth though, neither group is as large as we think, they're just the noisiest and therefore the ones that get the most attention. Most people are somewhere in between and all have the right to be treated with some measure of respect even if we think that they don't deserve it.

[janni]

We will never rid the world of stupidity and ignorance (there is no probably in that sentence).

But this thread and CA.org and the possibilites the Internet offers to share knowledge and ideas regardless of any national boundaries certainly do give me hope.

Thanks for all the stories and ideas!

[tensai]

"i just don't agree!"

[Peter Coene]

We will never rid the world of stupidity and ignorance (there is no probably in that sentence).

But this thread and CA.org and the possibilites the Internet offers to share knowledge and ideas regardless of any national boundaries certainly do give me hope.

Thanks for all the stories and ideas!

I'm sorry, but I don't see why the internet gives you hope. To tell the truth, the internet has me all the more convinced that there is no hope for humanity.

[fanficbug]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why the internet gives you hope. To tell the truth, the internet has me all the more convinced that there is no hope for humanity.

I'm sorry that it sends you further into despair.

As for me, I'm glad to have the internet because it makes me see that the majority in most of these arguments tends to be on the right side. I mean, just look at the Westboro Baptist Church . . . I've never seen anybody actually agree with them except themselves, even on the internet. That alone gives me a smidgen of hope. :)

EDIT: Just to clarify, I can see how it would go both ways. Both the giving and taking of despair. I mean, just look at 4Chan.

. . . No actually, don't. Forget I said that last bit.

[eskanto]

As for me, I'm glad to have the internet because it makes me see that the majority in most of these arguments tends to be on the right side.

What exactly is the right side?

[fanficbug]

What exactly is the right side?

True, that isn't exactly clear. There I go revealing my bias again. :)

[kev ferrara]

African Americans comprise around 12 percent of the population of the U.S. Find me another country where a member of that small of a racial minority would even have a chance of being fairly elected to the highest office in his country. As far as I'm concerned, we have already proven that we are the most racially tolerant country on the planet, despite all the pockets of bigotry and stupidity.

As far as the internet goes... the standard theory is that market connectivity leads step by step from repressive authoritarianism to personal empowerment and law and liberty, because culture follows from trade. Freedom of information is also supposed to lead to resentment of authoritarian regimes and thus could also act as a change agent. This is why authoritarian regimes, religions, cults, political parties, etc. seek to control both information and trade between their members and the "outside world". If there is no way to surmount the gatekeepers, there is no connectivity, thus no change. (Except by violent internal revolution, that is.)

Just to be clear; The various totalist gatekeepers around the planet will not be giving up power over their flock just because of some whining on the internet.

[kingshaj]

African Americans comprise around 12 percent of the population of the U.S. Find me another country where a member of that small of a racial minority would even have a chance of being fairly elected to the highest office in his country. As far as I'm concerned, we have already proven that we are the most racially tolerant country on the planet, despite all the pockets of bigotry and stupidity.



i think your correct here, sadly....if this is true it is a totally demoralizing fact
and a swift kick to the solar-plexus of hope

[Flake]

Obama is obviously the smart guy, vote for him and let's see how a smart guy gets on with that whole President thing.

Clinton didn't divorce a husband who obviously fucked the intern. She has no integrity or self respect and therefore cannot be trusted.

Dear America, please vote Obama, signed, the rest of the civilised world.

C'mon, you know you can do it.

[Costau D]

I have to agree with Kev on this one.

[Clodioz]

:(
¿¿¿will I be affected by racism If I go to Usa???

[Chingwa]

There are plenty of reasons not to vote for a candidate, and it's pretty obvious this video set out to make a point and found video footage to prove it's point (or to spin it to make it's point).

There are racist people everywhere in this country... and this world. I agree that people should vote the way they want for whatever reason they want. That's what freedom is... if people want to be racist assholes that's their right... anything else is politically correct BS and mind control.

Incidentally, I woudn't vote for Clinton, or Obama, or McCain (what's the difference between these war mongers anyway?). Does that make me a womanizing racist Gerontophobic???

[kev ferrara]

Obama is obviously the smart guy...

Obama is obviously articulate.

[eskanto]

Incidentally, I woudn't vote for Clinton, or Obama, or McCain (what's the difference between these war mongers anyway?). Does that make me a womanizing racist Gerontophobic???

I wouldn't lump them all together as war mongers.

[eskanto]

:(
¿¿¿will I be affected by racism If I go to Usa???

The US is a good place. Please note Kev's post.

[Ilaekae]

Racists come in all shapes and colors, and speak every language on earth. They all share one thing---stupidity. As a citizen of the US, I'm well acquainted with the level of stupidity here. Being someone who spent a large part of his life studying other cultures and political societies, I've also come to realize that the US may not be the worst in this area.

We gather here because of one common interest--art. That art requires intelligence and dedication, and usually either a fairly high level of education or a lot of exposure to things not common to our peers who are not artists. So it's common sense that most (not all) of us will be a bit more tolerant of things different than us. That isn't to say that we're all ready to hug the world, no matter what it smells like, but it does mean we'll at least look at the possibility.

The net allows us this opportunity to communicate back and forth with some level of honesty (helped by anonymity), as you can tell from this thread and others we've rambled through ad nauseum.

I already know there are people here I would not care for in real life based on their comments in various threads. There are also probably a fairly large number of people here who would not want to meet me in a dark alley, for any number of reasons. The same could be said for all of us, if you think about it.

How do we fight the stupidity? Easy. Root it out at home first. Ask yourself for an honest answer to this question--would you ever think something close to the following? "Wow! He/She's really cute! Wonder how my parents/friends/co-workers would react if we got together?" If the answer is "yes," you need to do a little house cleaning in your own skull.

The other way is to stop the stupidity when you hear it. Don't get into dangerous positions, just mention somthing when one of your friends calls somebody something you don't like, or does or says something stupid.

If we all go that far, we're doing the best we can. If enough of us do it, the world changes just a tiny bit, one little tick at a time...

[kev ferrara]

I already know there are people here I would not care for in real life based on their comments in various threads. There are also probably a fairly large number of people here who would not want to meet me in a dark alley, for any number of reasons. The same could be said for all of us, if you think about it.

Speak for yourself. There is nobody on this site I wouldn't share a beer and discussion with.

[Ilaekae]

Spoken by a man who has obviously never had his blind date try to show off her severed finger collection... :P

[chaosrocks]

Im with Kev

except for the beer part
beer hates me
single malt?

I'll buy
roxie

[Elwell]

So, when are we going to do this?

[Micaiah Nelson]

I'm up for it. Somebody has to sneak me beer.

[Chingwa]

I've just never understood beer... It feels like more work than play and doesn't leave you feeling like you won the next morning. Maybe we need a beer thread... someone care to explain it to me?

[Chingwa]

Noone is born a racist. You are taught to be a racist. Just like you are taught not to be one. It's pretty simple really. What's hard is teaching someone who was taught one thing to think another thing.... if they have no interest in changing themselves, it won't happen.

[Hexokinase]

on obama's muslim faith: 'yah i think it's a smear tactic...but i think people have the right to know!'

on the candidiates: 'hillary knows what the pledge of alliegiance is, hillary knows- could probably sing the star spangled banner better than anybody. so could john mccain! at least i know that they believe in this country. they believe in who we are, and how when times are bad, we pull together 'cause we're americans! but you know, the whole yankee-do-it ethic yknow...um...i just dont sense that from him.'

AMEN. it's what ive been trying to tell people all along. barack hussein osama - i mean, how could he NOT be muslim and anti american? simple logic, c'mon

"Hussein \hu(s)-sein\ is pronounced hoo-SAYN. It is of Arabic origin, and its meaning is 'good; small handsome one'"

1) Muslim =/= Arab

2) Muslim =/= Anti-American

Your views expressed are derogatory, ignore the bigger issue at hand, and is offensive due to its ignorance.

Furthermore, the Osama remark does not contribute to lively discussion, and is quite tasteless when considering the victims of 9/11.

[Edit]: If your remark was purely sarcastic, then I sincerely apologize for my misinterpretation.

[Jason Manley]

Incidentally, I woudn't vote for Clinton, or Obama, or McCain (what's the difference between these war mongers anyway?). Does that make me a womanizing racist Gerontophobic???



It makes you mis-informed. Obama was one of the few who did not support the war.

Regardless of that position, I find him to be eloquent, well informed, inspiring, thoughtful, and forward thinking. He is getting my vote.

[s.ketch]

I've just never understood beer... It feels like more work than play and doesn't leave you feeling like you won the next morning. Maybe we need a beer thread... someone care to explain it to me?

A beer thread? Best thread topic ever.

[Ilaekae]

I'm actually, to this point, a Clinton supporter, but it looks like Obama will be the candidate. If so, he's got my vote hands down with no doubts. Yeah, he's a bit young, but maybe that's what we need now.

As for McCain, I'm sorry...anyone who votes for that guy, no matter how well-meaning they think he is, is an idiot (slight offense meant). The Republican Party has proven itself over the last 8-12 years to be universally the worst thing that has happened to this country in at least my lifetime. McCain winning the election is just a continuation of that stupidity, and I can't find any silver lining anywhere in THAT result.

[Peter Coene]

The Republican Party has proven itself over the last 8-12 years to be universally the worst thing that has happened to this country in at least my lifetime. McCain winning the election is just a continuation of that stupidity, and I can't find any silver lining anywhere in THAT result.
I find that statement to be very predjudiced and assumes that the world agrees with your version of bad and good. One person will argue that it is good to give to the poor, another that it is good to force the poor to learn to help themselves, another that it is good for the government to spend its money in other ways as the poor are not its business. Who are you to claim what is "good" or "bad?"

[Blue]

None of us, are as terrible as all of us. Pull any one of these people out of their community and show them the fruits of their prejudice, they will grow a conscious... but as quickly as a beautiful snowflake melts upon the warm concrete, they will be lost once more as we release them all back amongst themselves.

[aea]

I find that statement to be very predjudiced and assumes that the world agrees with your version of bad and good. One person will argue that it is good to give to the poor, another that it is good to force the poor to learn to help themselves, another that it is good for the government to spend its money in other ways as the poor are not its business. Who are you to claim what is "good" or "bad?"

I would've voted Republican at one point if it had not been for said stupidity. Honestly, I'm afraid of both parties. Our Democratic congress has been too scared to lose elections to really do anything or initiate a path to change. They also spend like whoa which worries me how economically conscious they are. I'm not sure the democrat party (nor congress)can be united, they act like scared sheep.

Both parties are not concerned with the public. Republican or democrat. That should be what matters. Both are scared to lose the vote. And the republican's dirty practices in the past election cycles have not only corrupted our economy, but our system. Our situation is polarized as a result.

I don't think it was all for bad though. We've become apathetic as a country. We need to start caring and get angry about politics again.

[Peter Coene]

We need to start caring and get angry about politics again.
:eyeroll: Anger, especially at the government, is the last thing we need. Everybody is angry and the only good it does is in allowing us to blow off some steam. What we need to do is do things for ourselves. Stop whining about the government, stop expecting them to take care of us, stop acting like voting is the only thing that counts. If you don't like poverty don't complain about the government doing nothing, get off your lazy ass and do something yourself. If you are afraid that the economy is going down and your money will be worthless then don't sit arround fearfully squeeling like a scared pig; go arroung and start buying up every bit of junksilver your spare money can afford as it will retain its value (if you buy it at its siver price, not as a collector item.)

I'm sick of people sitting arround and thinking that all they need to do is vote and the government will take care of the rest.

[Ilaekae]

Peter, I ...don't remember mentioning "good or evil" or the "poor." Is there something I'm missing?

why don't we have a little discussion with specifics? No opinions. I'm not going to do it right right this second because I'm a bit busy to do the search for my sources i need to support anything I list, but if we can put up a list over the next couple of days...each of us...showing the specific good and bad points of each party over--say the last 16 years.

Cover everything you can think of...

Constitutional freedoms
Our stature internationally
How our patriotic soldiers are treated by both the public and the government that ordered them into battle
Race relations
The state of tolerance of others
The state of the economy, of both the Fed and the country's inhabitants
The state of the average family and person over the period
Quality of life
Political scandals
Policies supported or rejected that affect the average citizen

That kind of thing...nothing anecdotal, nothing nitty picky--just the big issues. ANYTHING you can think of. Maybe we can even refine it into a poll of some kind so everybody can have fun...

Basically, we put up or shut up, to see which of us is biased/prejudiced. I'm backing everything I post with source references. I hope for the same from you, so this may take more than just a few days. W'd'ya think, Pete?

[aea]

I'm sick of people sitting arround and thinking that all they need to do is vote and the government will take care of the rest.

Edit: n/m not worth it

[James Kei]

Peter, I ...don't remember mentioning "good or evil" or the "poor." Is there something I'm missing?

why don't we have a little discussion with specifics? No opinions. I'm not going to do it right right this second because I'm a bit busy to do the search for my sources i need to support anything I list, but if we can put up a list over the next couple of days...each of us...showing the specific good and bad points of each party over--say the last 16 years.

Cover everything you can think of...

Constitutional freedoms
Our stature internationally
How our patriotic soldiers are treated by both the public and the government that ordered them into battle
Race relations
The state of tolerance of others
The state of the economy, of both the Fed and the country's inhabitants
The state of the average family and person over the period
Quality of life
Political scandals
Policies supported or rejected that affect the average citizen

That kind of thing...nothing anecdotal, nothing nitty picky--just the big issues. ANYTHING you can think of. Maybe we can even refine it into a poll of some kind so everybody can have fun...

Basically, we put up or shut up, to see which of us is biased/prejudiced. I'm backing everything I post with source references. I hope for the same from you, so this may take more than just a few days. W'd'ya think, Pete?

*leans back into sofa with bag of popcorn*

Hey, all I know is that Kev owes me a beer. More specifically, a pint of Anchor Steam.

Yum.

[Ilaekae]

JK, you're enjoying this just a bit too fuckin' much... :P

[Duq]

Anchor steam? Is it any good? Had some experience with American beers, but most of my experiences is a bit meh. You guys should be sorry for the crappy beer that gets exported...

Anyway, the US really isn't that special when it comes to ignorance. Its only special that it is so much in the spotlights.

[Coinpurse]

someone mentioned beer? where is it? :P

Fuck racists...

[aussiedeza]

Heres a few points this thread got me thinking about.

I watch this film Taxi to the Dark Side (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0854678/) a couple of months ago and i know its is just a documentaries and it is design to mainly push one train of thought but dam just the simple fact that hundreds of thousand of Iraqis are put into prisons and tortured using very questionable techniques and only 2% are ever proved to have some kind of terrorist connection, Do you think this could be considered a form of racial hate or just a tragedy of war and how many Americans are actually aware of what thier government/army is doing over there?.

I have had some personal experience with racism where by i have been spat on, attacked and verbally abused many times by aboriginals in my country and in my younger years these actions developed in me quite a bit of hate for aboriginal people plus the general public view supported this hate but over the last 5 years or so i have done quite a bit of growing up and now days there is no generalization that i don't question before i make an opinion and than still i make sure i am open for different views, what i am saying i guess is that its so bloody easy generalize two or three people of similar race by chance act a similar way to and all of a sudden the hole race is slammed with a generalization by someone who isn't willing to look deeper and it spreads like a contagious disease.

Um not sure if that make much sense and if it is completely off topic? oh well I am good like that.

Not sure if the Cronulla roits made it out of Australia but here is picture of that stupidity.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/12/12/beaten_gallery__470x313.jpg

Also lynching and corkscrews dam thats a bad way to go *shivers*.

[Chingwa]

It makes you mis-informed. Obama was one of the few who did not support the war.
He did't support the war because he wasn't in the Senate when they voted... but given his past voting history he most likely would have voted along the lines of most of his other democrat friends (i.e. for the war). In any case, he's voting for the next one. He already threatened to invade Pakistan... and his top advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski is on record as being a Russia hater and has positioned more of the same American Empire in wait for us all....

I agree that Obama is a very articulate even intelligent man and I like the way he has run his campaign for the most part. But politicians are just stage puppets and you will not get significant change out of any of these people, regardless of how much they use that energizing keyword that has no meaning... "change".

The media has latched onto the "approved" candidates. there is no real philosophical difference between any of them. if people want "change" the only way they will get it is to break the system of propaganda and demand 3rd party validation. Democrat, Republican... these power players laugh at you. They lock down the political spectrum to control the policy of this country... sometimes it's on the left... sometimes it's on the right... but the system they control keeps them in power.

[Xpose]

I live in Arkansas and had to deal with racial slurs the whole time I was in line to vote. Everyone was talking shit about Obama. I just put my head up high and when I got into the voting booth I voted for who I felt was the best person for the job. I had studied and followed the candidates from the beginning and new where they stood. My vote went for Barack Obama.

[life on the sofa]

so is this thread about hillary vs obama, democrat vs republican, or racism now?

im not american so cant realy speculate on this election, so long as who ever wins doesnt start a nuclear war.

but on racism, well. there is simplicity at the roots of racism, however it is dressed up or "excused" its still small minded people vs people who are different.

racism isnt just white vs black. in england at the moment there is ALOT of questions being raised about immigration from eastern european countries (poland, serbia, romania etc) and how "they are stealing our jobs"..(its pathetic and has no substance) but the B.N.P (british national party..bunch of rascists) is gaining support here, although still a minority racism is still a big thing in england and if im honest isnt realy getting any better.

people who arent racist and have no strong feelings on the matter are quite happy i think these days to accept it as non existant because thats the safest way to view the subject and not to get involved which doesnt fuel racism but allows it to stew and allows racists to feel less isolated because someone would rather pretend "he didnt just say the N word" and get on with it rather than open that old can of worms( like this thread..began with the video now 4 pages later we are still bringing up new points and opinons**). i have loads of freinds who are from all over the world and cant grasp even the idea of racism, nor why anyone would feel so strongly against a black person that they would allow it to change their fundamentals when it comes to something as major as a presidential election, so yeah, i dont understand racism, i dont condone it and cant tolerate it in any form or at any level. end racism plz. :)

if you read that whole thing well done and ty ;)

[chaosrocks]

and why are you all arguing aboutpolitics and sources and stuff.... you should be drawing!

(single malt anyone?)

crx

[Duq]

Yes back to beer!

I'm still wondering what that Anchor Steam must be like, I found it is a custom brewed beer in SF?

We also got a brewery that makes Steam beer across of my workplace, so if anyone can send me a big bottle, I will return the favor :D

[Molly]

Absolutley no-one here should apologise for these people or their behavior.
We all have idiots like that in our countries. Ignorant people with narrow minds.

(But honestly, would you really want the US presidential list to go Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton?.....)

NOW GET DRAWING, OR CRITIQING!!!!!!!

The Guv'na xx

[aylap]

Oh...my god. I feel so ashamed to say I live in West Virginia. *hides head in shame*

I SWEAR, not every West Virginian is like this. I mean, look at me, born and raised in this hell hole of a welfare state, and I'm all for equal rights for everyone. So no racism, sexism, whatever from me. Prejudice is everywhere, though. WV probably has more of it here than a lot of places though, because we're really isolated from everyone else. I would vote for Obama, but I honestly just don't like politics and probably won't vote anyway. I'll be old enough by this election to vote, but I've just never gotten into politics. :/

And I also heard from one of my teachers that she had a whole bunch of friends wanting to vote for Obama at first, but since he only came here once, they feel like he hasn't been paying attention to us, so they're not going to vote for him based on that.

I know there's a lot of stereotypes for West Virginians, so I'll just list some that I'm not:

I don't have buck teeth.
I don't dress in overall every day.
I don't have patches in all of my clothes.
I dislike country music.
I don't chew "tabacc-e".
I don't drink moonshine or any other alcohol.
I don't constantly have a piece of hay sticking out of my mouth.
I have all of my teeth.
I don't go shirtless every day.
I don't like country music.
I don't wear plaid.
I don't live on a farm.
I don't know how to play the banjo.
I don't churn butter for fun.
I do wear shoes.
I hate country music.
I have an IQ above 60.
I know how to speak proper English.
I don't really have much of a drawl (I don't think anyway).
I don't wear straw hats.
I don't own a shotgun.
I know how to maintain proper hygiene.
I have a strong dislike for country music.
I'm not prejudiced.

I can't wait to get out of here, though.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

I'm voting for Hillary because she has more experience, and she's a woman. I want to see a woman as president anyways - I would be thrilled. I sincerely believe though that it's what Hillary has on her resume that's going to be good for the country. She's smart and also has Bill as an advisor.

The issue at hand of why I wouldn't vote for Obama is his association, and not just association, but support of Jeremiah Wright, who is just as much of a hate monger as these people on the video. I have no problem with his so-called "black heritage" I live in Memphis so I live in the middle of a city where whites are the minority and where Martin Luther King Jr. lived and died. It's pretty clear to me Obama is very white america....

I'd fucking vote for Tupac though. D: So maybe I'm just picky or crazy...I do know Hillary made a racist coment at some point in her career, could be wrong there...

Racism is a two way street though....

[James Kei]

JK, you're enjoying this just a bit too fuckin' much... :P

Ilaekae, I think you should be President.
I'll be your campaign manager. :happypatriot:

[Ilaekae]

I've seriously thought about it...

First thing I'd do is outlaw all clothing except the barest minimum for modesty. That would stop a few billion $$$ going to the sweat shops in asia and south america, forcing them to come up with something better to do and really clean up our balance of trade problems. It would drastically cut down on most crime--I mean--how seriously can you take some dude doin' a gangsta sideways with a cheap pistol when he's standin' there in his skid-marked Jockeys. And where would he hide the gun? No robbery--where would you stash it? We might even have a massive reduction in crimes related to prejudice. I for one do not want to be part of a mob while my nuts are hangin' out next to a bunch of other sweaty semi-naked yahoos.

People would become more concerned with how clean things are in public, because they have to sit their dainty asses on it. True perverts would become painfully obvious and easy to spot...heehee...cutting down on sudden sexual/power trip attacks.

Oh, fuck it! Lets do this. I'll only be 66 next election, and I'm pretty sure I can beat that skinny kid who'll probably be in office at the time... :P

[daestwen]

I've seriously thought about it...

First thing I'd do is outlaw all clothing except the barest minimum for modesty.

Ilaekae, can I just say that I'm glad you don't live in canada? I would hate to live through a canadian winter with you in office.... :P

[Ilaekae]

Free portable heaters will be a constitutional right...

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

Well, at the very least, I think nudity should be a constitutional right....how the hell did humanity get defined by the dead plant and animal material they use to cover their skin organ?

I will protest by wearing latex constantly.

[Dirty C]

meh doesn't matter what country or what race, its extremely easy to find uneducated inmorale retards, all i have to say is i love "Darwin's Law" of natural selection i just wished it would hurry the hell up but then again the way society supports dumbness maybe intelligent people are slowly become more extinct and the mentally handicapped will take over the world!!!.

Actually Darwin's on their side. They don't stress themselves with shit like learning or traveling. They just start dumping babies at fourteen and keep going till they can field their own team. The average age college graduates start reproducing at has to be like 28 now? Nobody I know barring a few oddities has had kids before about 31.. and none of them more than two.

It's Idiocracy all over. We're fucked.

[Candras]

The only racism I saw in that video was the lady that said she didn't think a black should be president.
The black lady used the racial slur redneck, why does no one hate on that? That is just as racist as using the N word .
And the fact that I can type redneck on here but not the N word is rather hypocritical.

And this video is edited to make it seem like white people from WV are evil racists and the black people are victims

Anyways, ron paul 08

[Dirty C]

The only racism I saw in that video was the lady that said she didn't think a black should be president.
The black lady used the racial slur redneck, why does no one hate on that? That is just as racist as using the N word .
And the fact that I can type redneck on here but not the N word is rather hypocritical.

And this video is edited to make it seem like white people from WV are evil racists and the black people are victims

Anyways, ron paul 08


JASON GIVE ME BACK MY GROAN BUTTON!!!

[Candras]

How about an actual reply
God forbid if someone doesn't go omgz those evil racists!!!

[Zaxser]

As much as I'm never voting for Obama, I'd just like to say, as a white person from the south:

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10071/picard-no-facepalm.jpg

[Dirty C]

How about an actual reply
God forbid if someone doesn't go omgz those evil racists!!!

OK, here's your reply:

You're part of the problem.

[Dougbot]

First thing I'd do is outlaw all clothing except the barest minimum for modesty.

One pic of me in a speedo and your election is over, and not in the winning way.

[Candras]

OK, here's your reply:

You're part of the problem.

Alright
care to go further?

[Dirty C]

Every time a member of the privileged majority bemoans their treatment at the hands of the media in the face of an overwhelming statistic, then they're trying to pretend the problem isn't there.

Thinking that it's worse to have a few people of your own culture look slightly less than generous on television for things that they actually said - in words, out loud to a camera, even though they'd had a chance to explain themselves - than to admit that there's a tremendous problem with a society that doesn't think a member of another race can ever hold a position of authority puts you fairly and squarely in the category of bigot.

You need to look at what's important in the world. What does equality mean to you? People being treated fairly and having equal opportunity? Or not rocking the boat and making people look bad in the media?

[Candras]

bigot
One entry found.

bigot


Main Entry:
big·ot Listen to the pronunciation of bigot
Pronunciation:
\ˈbi-gət\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French, hypocrite, bigot
Date:
1660

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

From my posts you cannot call me a bigot because they just don't fit the definition

I think the video is very biased and wants to portray a certain message, I could go to West Virginia and make a video looking exactly the opposite.

People should have equal rights.....But people being racist is the last of my concerns, you cant change racist people. If you feel those feelings now, you'll feel them for the rest of your life.

[Dirty C]

Semantics are the first resort of those without an argument.

Of course you could go and make a video with the opposite message. How then do you explain the voter turnout being so utterly different to every other state?

[Chingwa]

Well I don't agree... racist people can change. everyone can change if they want to. but I do agree that the posted video was completely one-sided and set out to make a point. It's just sad that people areso easily buying the line that this video tried so hard to make.... critical thinking guys!

Of course there is racism out there. So what's the surprise?

[Peter Coene]

I'm actually, to this point, a Clinton supporter, but it looks like Obama will be the candidate. If so, he's got my vote hands down with no doubts. Yeah, he's a bit young, but maybe that's what we need now.

As for McCain, I'm sorry...anyone who votes for that guy, no matter how well-meaning they think he is, is an idiot (slight offense meant). The Republican Party has proven itself over the last 8-12 years to be universally the worst thing that has happened to this country in at least my lifetime. McCain winning the election is just a continuation of that stupidity, and I can't find any silver lining anywhere in THAT result.

Peter, I ...don't remember mentioning "good or evil" or the "poor." Is there something I'm missing?
for something to be "universally the worst thing that has happened to this country" it has to be bad, doesn't it? As for the poor, that was just the example that I used.

why don't we have a little discussion with specifics? No opinions. I'm not going to do it right right this second because I'm a bit busy to do the search for my sources i need to support anything I list, but if we can put up a list over the next couple of days...each of us...showing the specific good and bad points of each party over--say the last 16 years.
ok, using your list:

Constitutional freedoms:
-gun control?
-affirmitive action?

Our stature internationally:
-is not as important as our issues internally. However this issue could be seen as a shift in the expectations of other nations rather that the fault of the governing party.

How our patriotic soldiers are treated by both the public and the government that ordered them into battle
-they are respected by the republicans
-they usually vote republican, even after they get back from the war
-A soldiers job is to fight battles, while I can understand argueing whether our nation should be at war I feel no reason to claim that a soldier who vulunteered should not go to war. Untill we start up a draft you have nothing worth arguing here.

Race relations
-not the government's business, however affirmitive action is at least one example of government enforced racism.

The state of tolerance of others
-unless it is a matter of the government being intollerant I have to once again state that this is not the government's business.

The state of the economy, of both the Fed and the country's inhabitants
-The economy has been in a constant downward slide ever since we were taken off of the gold/silver standard. A return to the gold /silver standard as well as implementation of Reaganomics would help things out emensely, however I doubt that either side has the balls to do that any more.

The state of the average family and person over the period
-I don't see why we blame the government for this and not ourselves.

Quality of life:
-If you are referring to welfare this is another issue that is not the government's business.

Political scandals (and major foux pas)
-Reps-
1. Bush1- Refused to eat broccoli
2. Bush2- Attacked a country on charges of breaking a treaty made after his father had attacked that country 10 years earlier; one of those charges being ownership of weapons of mass destruction. Though none of those weapons could be found it was proven that Iraq did break with other measures of that treaty and thus the war was legal (though I will agree: stupid)

-Dems-
1. Bill Clinton: Attacked the same nation, for the same reason, but effected no change of government and did not even check to see if the WMDs that he bombed them for having were there.
2. Bill Clinton: Lied under oath about extramarital sexual encounters, and in fact, this scandal was so big that he tried to divert attention to the fact that he was bombing Iraq, but nobody cared.
3. Spitzer: paid for prostitutes
4. John Kerry: Pushed war stories that never happened and waved medals that he never earned in an attempt to be elected.
5. Hillary: Started talking about sniper fire and war-zone status while referring to what was really a peacefull landing in the Balkans
6. Obama: Refuses to wear an American flag pin and will not cover his heart durring the National Anthem.

Policies supported or rejected that affect the average citizen
-this one is rather vague, care to explain?

sorry that I don't have source refs, though if you doubt any of my comments to be true let me know and I will find said reference for you.

Every time a member of the privileged majority bemoans their treatment at the hands of the media in the face of an overwhelming statistic, then they're trying to pretend the problem isn't there.
I see, and what makes you think that anyone who is doing the "bemoaning" is somehow priveledged?

Thinking that it's worse to have a few people of your own culture look slightly less than generous on television for things that they actually said - in words, out loud to a camera, even though they'd had a chance to explain themselves - than to admit that there's a tremendous problem with a society that doesn't think a member of another race can ever hold a position of authority puts you fairly and squarely in the category of bigot.
1. They did not have a chance to explain themselves
2. The person holding the camera had an obvious agenda, and therefore in controll of affecting how those people look.
3. pointing the finger and saying racist has become a very vindictive accusation. Anybody who knows this will react.

[/quote]You need to look at what's important in the world. What does equality mean to you? People being treated fairly and having equal opportunity? Or not rocking the boat and making people look bad in the media?[/QUOTE]
Having equal opportunity has nothing to do with making people look bad. Equal opportunity can be acheived without shoving a camera in somebody's nose. As for their oppinions, as much as we may disagree and have the right to argue it is their right to hold those oppinions and we do not have the right to force them to change.

[aussiedeza]

Solution To All The Problems.


g9Qu3iP3RYA&NR=1

[Candras]

Semantics are the first resort of those without an argument.

Of course you could go and make a video with the opposite message. How then do you explain the voter turnout being so utterly different to every other state?

Semantics, where, when and how?

How about they just like Hillary better? There are such thing as liking one political opponent better because of their views ya' know.

I think it's ridiculous that people are actually taking that video as a serious view of WV.

[kev ferrara]

John F. Kennedy, the first Catholic candidate, recieved 70% of the Catholic vote.

West Virginia, mostly white, gives Hillary Clinton 67% of their vote.

Barack Obama recieves a whopping 90% of the African American Democratic vote nationwide.

What have we learned today?

People obviously vote with their interests. People believe candidates with similar identities to them will govern in their interest, and therefore that's who they vote for. Not racism. We're talking tribal instincts.

If this idea is rejected, then maybe we are left to conclude that, at this moment in history, African American Democrats are the most racist group in America.

I'm sure a youtube video could prove it.

[Sorknes]

Oh gods?

I react very deeply on the fact that these people in this video are down to earth racist and does a very poor job to hide it. And just the fact that they try to hide it behind other things, and that done bad, shows that they know on some level that this is viewed as WRONG. If you can't see that they're doing a shit job hiding it, then there's also something wrong with you.

I couldn't care less who becomes the president of US. It's not the president of the World. You have to remember that "us foreigners" couldn't care less about your internal problems and what they can do about that, that's your problem. We look at what they do internationally. That's why the rest of the world pretty much liked Clinton. When that's said, it's not so much about the president as the people behind him/her.

But are you seriously coming out in a forum like this, with people from all over the world, and saying "I can't see anything wrong with that?" Forget where it's from. Forget what it's about. Forget what you mean about them focusing on one side only. LISTEN TO WHAT THE PEOPLE SAY, and if you truly say that you still can't see anything wrong about that, I pity you. And your kids.

[Ilaekae]

Peter, my list were just examples of what could be covered. If you want to say fuck it, then just have the balls to say so. Otherwise, suggest items for the list. I'm in no mood to be funny when somebody as biased as you obviously are calls me out, and does it with "leading" comments.

So it stands...put up or shut up. You've got all the time you need. Otherwise, tell me you're not interested.

[guggemmaneuver]

it's a sad fact of life in many parts of this country:
Racism is an unavoidable thing that we constantly have to deal with.
As sick and tired of it as I am, I'm not really sure what can be done... in places like West Virginia it's so intrinsic to the status quo way of looking at things. Urban areas here in the durty south offer some respite, but by and large one can expect to encounter these ridiculously ignorant attitudes anywhere out of the immediately urban area. In fact (and this is humiliating...), i encounter this ignorance within my own family. What can be done to counteract and correct it? sorry to sound bewildered, but i believe there's a way to get around it. especially with the politically charged nature of this crucial election: there needs to be some confrontation with the nagging issue of counteracting racism. thoughts?

[Dan!]

"LISTEN TO WHAT THE PEOPLE SAY"

one person said they werent ready- another said her state was filled with rednecks. The rest said nothing racist. Assuming someone is racist because it was stated by a third party smells of a bandwagon, racist, lynch-mob mentality as well. (-2 pts for buzz words:( )

Yes there are racist people who will vote purely because of the issue.

Just because someone has a view different than yours does not make them- uninformed,ignorant,racist,inbread,evil etc.

The most you can do is explain your case and hope for a reasonable debate. Ad hominem only works in high school and bars after 12:00.

Ilaekae- I maybe out of my place but, of course he is biased- this whole thread is filled to the brim with bias. He has clearly answered your own talking points. Why not argue his position?

[MarkWinters]

Political scandals (and major foux pas)
-Reps-
1. Bush1- Refused to eat broccoli
2. Bush2- Attacked a country on charges of breaking a treaty made after his father had attacked that country 10 years earlier; one of those charges being ownership of weapons of mass destruction. Though none of those weapons could be found it was proven that Iraq did break with other measures of that treaty and thus the war was legal (though I will agree: stupid)

-Dems-
1. Bill Clinton: Attacked the same nation, for the same reason, but effected no change of government and did not even check to see if the WMDs that he bombed them for having were there.
2. Bill Clinton: Lied under oath about extramarital sexual encounters, and in fact, this scandal was so big that he tried to divert attention to the fact that he was bombing Iraq, but nobody cared.
3. Spitzer: paid for prostitutes
4. John Kerry: Pushed war stories that never happened and waved medals that he never earned in an attempt to be elected.
5. Hillary: Started talking about sniper fire and war-zone status while referring to what was really a peacefull landing in the Balkans
6. Obama: Refuses to wear an American flag pin and will not cover his heart durring the National Anthem.

I don't mean to derail the thread but is this little list serious? George (Read my lips, no new taxes) gets broccoli? For reals? Sex scandals: Mark Foley(R), Larry Craig(R), Ted Haggard (R) etc. Some heavy shit has gone down on both sides of the aisle and this list doesn't really cover any of them and I don't know why it was even included. Silliness.

[Ilaekae]

"Ilaekae- I maybe out of my place but, of course he is biased- this whole thread is filled to the brim with bias. He has clearly answered your own talking points. Why not argue his position?"

DECYPL, you're never out of your place making a comment, especially to me. I'm aware the thread is full of bias, but I wasn't looking for a fight with Peter Coene, I was asking him to get together a list of topics we could discuss. I posted no talking points, and what I did post as possible starting suggestions he dismissed with mostly irrelevant rhetoric. That's usually a sign that someone is afraid to discuss something, so I won't push the matter. He can do or say whatever he wants...he's a grown up.

I only called him out originally because he inserted his own prejudices into my statement to try to paint me with whatever brush he thought useful. It's done. Good luck to him and no hard feelings. I just won't discuss anything with him in the future.

[aesir]

just to jump in,

lets not forget operation infinite reach which clinton was responsible for where he bombed a pharmeceutical factory that supplied medicine to an entire country which resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and was based entirely on a piece of dubious evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory

[Dan!]

ilaekae- fair enough-

May I direct you all towards the beer thread where the spirits flow, the music is loud- it smells a little musty in there but it somehow still feels like home.

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=125940

cheers

[Mike Frank]

George H. W. Bush -- all you got is he won't eat broccoli??

The former head of the CIA - political assassinations, assisting and arming dictators worldwide, drug running..

[James Kei]

Heh, I can't believe you guys are taking Peter's response so seriously. Read it again, it's pure comedy.

And Peter, it must boil you to the core to be living in a blue state, right? :D

[emily g]

Peter Coene,

You forgot when Bush1 threw up on the Prime Minister of Japan.

And when Bush2 choked on a pretzel.

[Sorknes]

"The rest said nothing racist"....

Ok, I give up. Saying that Obama being a muslim is a smear tactic, but that they think people has to know, and that Hillary and McCain knows the pledge of allience and the star spangled banner well (underlying implying that Obama does not), saying that Hillary and McCain are American, while Obama of course, is not......... Is not racist. No body language there. No subtle changes in voices. No eyes going a bit weird.

My point of view? They don't have a different point of view than me. On politics. I don't have a point of view on US politics. I gave up trying to understand that years ago. I couldn't make a change if I would. I'm not a bloody US citizen. The only place where they have a different point of view than me is their core mentality about race. As I don't know anything else about anything of their point of views except politics. Which they manage to smear racial fear all over.

*throws up hands*

Ok, I give up. Stew in your own brew. I still pity any that can't see this. And the kids. And hope that the world gets better.

[Silverwing]

.....Sometimes I just want to say...'Shut up and vote'. At least then you are actually /DOING/ something. I think we've all agreed that people have many different reasons for voting for people and not all of them are honorable. The best thing you can do is stand up and just vote for who you think is best, then at least you are doing something proactive.

Here in the UK we have a real problem with people not voting at all. Means that things like the abolishment of the 10p tax happen. However, I think that move by Labour has definitely nailed the lid on their coffin. Its the first year where I didn't vote for them.

[dbclemons]

Stupid people are everywhere, and intelligence is not a requirement for voting. West Virginia voted for Bush, and a large percentage of its Democrats voted for him also - twice. Even if Hillary was leading in the race now, she'd likely wind up losing there as well.

[s.ketch]

John F. Kennedy, the first Catholic candidate, recieved 70% of the Catholic vote.

West Virginia, mostly white, gives Hillary Clinton 67% of their vote.

Barack Obama recieves a whopping 90% of the African American Democratic vote nationwide.

What have we learned today?

People obviously vote with their interests. People believe candidates with similar identities to them will govern in their interest, and therefore that's who they vote for. Not racism. We're talking tribal instincts.

If this idea is rejected, then maybe we are left to conclude that, at this moment in history, African American Democrats are the most racist group in America.

I'm sure a youtube video could prove it.

Kev, you're making so much sense to me lately.

[Candras]

[QUOTE=Sorknes;1765444]"The rest said nothing racist"....

Ok, I give up. Saying that Obama being a muslim is a smear tactic, but that they think people has to know, and that Hillary and McCain knows the pledge of allience and the star spangled banner well (underlying implying that Obama does not), saying that Hillary and McCain are American, while Obama of course, is not......... Is not racist. No body language there. No subtle changes in voices. No eyes going a bit weird. QUOTE]


You forgot to add the black lady that used the racial slur redneck ;)

[Dirty C]

Good idea, if you only listen to the first sentence of each paragraph, you can shut your eyes and pretend they're not racist!

GENIUS.

[Dirty C]

Oops that was a response to an earlier post.

BTW, WTF?? I seem to be looking at ca version 2 or even 1! What's going on?

[Candras]

I'm not trying to ignore anyone, I'm just saying the most obvious racism in this video was the black lady that YOU obviously ignore.

If one of the whites said nigg you'd go on about how they are racist, but the black lady says redneck and it's no problem.

I'm sorry it doesn't work that way

[MarkWinters]

I'm not trying to ignore anyone, I'm just saying the most obvious racism in this video was the black lady that YOU obviously ignore.

If one of the whites said nigg you'd go on about how they are racist, but the black lady says redneck and it's no problem.

I'm sorry it doesn't work that way
"Redneck" isn't as much of a pejorative as the big N. You won't find desk calendars called "You might be a 'N' if..." If she called them honkeys or something maybe I'd see your point?

[Aly Fell]

Redneck is not a race. Rednecks (forget the etymology) can change their social stereotyping by getting an education, selling their pickup and cutting their mullet. Can you guess where I'm going with this?

[Mrianna]

Redneck is not a race. Rednecks (forget the etymology) can change their social stereotyping by getting an education, selling their pickup and cutting their mullet. Can you guess where I'm going with this?

An English teacher once told me something along the lines of, "a Redneck used to be someone who would work outside all day (Like a farmer I guess) and his neck would get sunburned. those creating the term, 'redneck'"

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

Obama is obviously the smart guy, vote for him and let's see how a smart guy gets on with that whole President thing.

Clinton didn't divorce a husband who obviously fucked the intern. She has no integrity or self respect and therefore cannot be trusted.

Dear America, please vote Obama, signed, the rest of the civilised world.

C'mon, you know you can do it.


It's also possible she didn't care and made the right career choice because she is obviously a career woman and not a wifey-poo...

I think forgiveness is divine...

Just because you don't chain your husband's dick to the floor doesn't mean you don't have self respect. I do not define myself by who I am involved with romantically or matrimonially.

[Candras]

"Redneck" isn't as much of a pejorative as the big N. You won't find desk calendars called "You might be a 'N' if..." If she called them honkeys or something maybe I'd see your point?

Black people call themselves niggs, and go one about being ones in songs, ect
And redneck is strictly towards a white persons.

[aussiedeza]

Haha nice one Naomi now i suddenly have a picture in my head of some unhappy old dude struggling to get himself out of a chained contraption.


And i still think tear drop rainbow colored jelly beans is the solution!!.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

We need a gay hermaphroditic mexican-chinese-polish descent adopted eskimo as president.

[Dirty C]

We need a gay hermaphroditic mexican-chinese-polish descent adopted eskimo as president.

Love to, but I wasn't born here.

[Elwell]

We need a gay hermaphroditic mexican-chinese-polish descent adopted eskimo as president.

If you're a hermaphrodite, aren't you automatically 50% gay?

[Dirty C]

Dude, the existential questions that arise every time I masturbate in front of a mirror are awesome. Sometimes I just get lost in contemplating the plethora of genitalia.

[Elwell]

Dude, the existential questions that arise every time I masturbate in front of a mirror are awesome. Sometimes I just get lost in contemplating the plethora of genitalia.
Just as long as you don't travel back and forth in time and end as both your own parents (http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html).

[BlackGuy]

Wow, that was infuriating. You guys ever get so angry that you don't even know what to say? You just kind of sit there in this weird haze of surprise and disappointment? That's how I feel. I feel like this election is either strengthening this divide, or it's starting to peel away the veil that a lot of racists (on both sides) have been wearing.

[smugbug]

We need a gay hermaphroditic mexican-chinese-polish descent adopted eskimo as president.

Heh, I found this funny as I'm half-Chinese and in the second grade, there was a rumor that I was an eskimo.

However, for the record, I am not polish, mexican (been mistaken for that, too), and neither gay or a hermaphrodite.

Just wanted to make that clear. heh.

[Peter Coene]

I'm in no mood to be funny when somebody as biased as you obviously are calls me out, and does it with "leading" comments.

So it stands...put up or shut up. You've got all the time you need. Otherwise, tell me you're not interested.
Right, I'm biased... when I have already stated that if the race is between Obama and McCain I'm not sure who I will vote for. I'd say that is an indication of a lack of bias; but I'll let you read it the way that you want to.

[daestwen]

However, for the record, I am not polish, mexican (been mistaken for that, too), and neither gay or a hermaphrodite.

Daaaamn, all my hopes are dashed. D:

[fanficbug]

Wow, that was infuriating. You guys ever get so angry that you don't even know what to say? You just kind of sit there in this weird haze of surprise and disappointment? That's how I feel. I feel like this election is either strengthening this divide, or it's starting to peel away the veil that a lot of racists (on both sides) have been wearing.

I think it's doing a little of each.

Politics make me feel like someone has sawn off the top of my head, fiddled around with my brain, and then went and buried the parts that came out. I imagine this is what having an aneurysm must feel like.

[fanficbug]

Redneck is not a race. Rednecks (forget the etymology) can change their social stereotyping by getting an education, selling their pickup and cutting their mullet. Can you guess where I'm going with this?

I've been called a redneck and I own a scooter but no car/truck, I graduated from a rigorous prep school with full honors, and I have curly hair cut in long layers. It was entirely based on my accent and the fact that I'm unemployed (and if anyone has a problem with my opinion based on that last bit, I cordially invite you to bite me).

This is not to say that I think that us poor Southerners (note the sarcasm) are just SOOOO much more oppressed than Blacks, Hispanics, or anybody else with skin that's a little darker than the "ideal" White's, but rather that prejudice against social and regional groups does exist.

Of course, it's nowhere near as pressing as the atrocities committed against people of color every day. I'm not suggesting some kind of national movement to "FREE THE OPPRESSED WHITE MAN111!!!1" or some other bullshit (because let's face it, white men aren't even remotely oppressed in this country as a whole).

But be aware that thinking of people as somehow less worthy of respect based on one or two factors about them (prejudiced? you must be ignorant, own a truck, and have a mullet!) is starting towards that slope of prejudice yourself. I would never, ever agree with or defend my grandmother when she said something like "Those damn Mexicans are stealing all our jobs!" but I did (and do) really love her and there are some wonderful things that I respected about her, like how she managed to survive on tube feeding for seven years and refused to give up on living just because she was sick. I deeply dislike the fact that she was racist and will always look back on those statements she made with an incredible amount of disgust and humiliation, but that doesn't make her a completely awful person. There were still things about her that were downright saintly and that I need to work on learning from her. Just not that.

Some food for thought: I think that people as a whole have trouble separating the negative from the positive. It's a less important example, but I went to go see Iron Man this week and I was so disgusted by the rampant sexism in it that I couldn't empathize with any of the characters for most of the movie. But damn the concepts in it were awesome, the fight scenes were pure joy, and there were a fuck ton of things I LOVED about how it handled terrorists (what? not all middle easterners are terrorists? some of them have families who are more hurt by terrorism than privileged Americans are? FUCK YES). I didn't like the whole of the movie, but I still agree that there were parts of it that were worth something. Maybe if people could learn to do that a little more then even IF they saw race as a "negative" they could learn to see past it to the "good stuff" beneath. Again, just food for thought.

[Elam]

The beauty of this election cycle is the contradictions brought forth by decades of racial and gender pandering in the Democratic party. It's the blacks vs. the women vs. the hispanics et al. The Rainbow Coalition went to hell and the knives have come out.

That video was rather pointless. 5-6 people were interviewed and suddenly the whole state is racist. Whatever.

What's racist? The individual who won't vote for a person simply because they're black? Or the individual who votes for a person solely because they're black? Either way, your voting based on skin color, yet curiously, the latter type of people get a freebee(including in this thread).
Wow, that was infuriating. You guys ever get so angry that you don't even know what to say? You just kind of sit there in this weird haze of surprise and disappointment? That's how I feel
Hilarious. A 5 minute youtube hackery throws citizen into body numbing rage! So what did you feel when you saw and heard Jeremiah Wright?

[fanficbug]

Hilarious. A 5 minute youtube hackery throws citizen into body numbing rage! So what did you feel when you saw and heard Jeremiah Wright?

You can fuck right off, sir.

the latter type of people get a freebee(including in this thread).

Because THAT'S not a stupid transparent White Rights talking point. God forbid we try to make up for years, decades, centuries of oppression--literally the owning of other people body and soul simply because of the way they were born. GOD FORBID THE WHITE MAN POSSIBLY FACE A TASTE OF OPPRESSION, IT IS SO WRONG AND SHOULDN'T BE STOMACHED AT ALL!

Go learn to not make a stupid dummy account (hint: your first post on a board shouldn't be a controversial one about racism) to post on a thread for practically the express purpose of saying "LOL if you are upset from racism, you're stupid/racist!" Prick.

[sve]

In my opinion, his post was not stupid. To vote based on gender is no less meaningless than to vote based on color of skin. We are trying to elect a person who is the most competent for a very complex, hard, unpredictable job, not a representative of skin color or certain gender, and it is not a compensation for ugly past in American history.

He didn't say anything of this sort, you accused him. He said, you should see racism in its many other appearances not just the one which is officially recognized.

Every time someone descends to personal attacks and insults,when arguing his/her point, I think that his/her position is weak.

[fanficbug]

In my opinion, his post was not stupid. To vote based on gender is no less meaningless than to vote based on color of skin. We are trying to elect a person who is the most competent for a very complex, hard, unpredictable job, not a representative of skin color or certain gender, and it is not a compensation for ugly past in American history.

He didn't say anything of this sort, you accused him. He said, you should see racism in its many other appearances not just the one which is officially recognized.

Every time someone descends to personal attacks and insults,when arguing his/her point, I think that his/her position is weak.

The last bit is true, and I'm sorry for that. But at the same time, it simply gets my hackles up that someone else can and will look at a person who has this sort of background and basically say, "Man, I can't believe you got so angry! How stupid of you!" How can someone of color not get angry at blatant racism? I really want to know that. How is it that someone doesn't have the complete right to be angry at this sort of thing? And then the fact that we were all angered at the same thing (you know, the racism present in the movie) is suddenly a freebee? No. Just no.

I was somewhat okay with this person's position before he started talking about legitimate anger and sympathy being a freebee. Yes, I can see "well, not all of the state is like that, and the movie was a bit leading." That's been said in other places, and I haven't disagreed with it in any way whatsoever and have no plans to do so in the future. When the poster ridiculed someone for legitimate anger at seeing racism, that's when I went from, "This person is a bit of a dick" to "Wow, what a total racist." Coupled with "So what did you feel when you saw and heard Jeremiah Wright?" -- A challenge worded in such a way to imply that every Black person feels the same about every other Black person (because God forbid anybody should feel embarrassed, as several of my friends were, that some parts of Black culture were this way) and to try to expose the other person as being a hypocrite? Not to mention being flippant about it? Maybe I'm just reading too much into this, and I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I react to a person's stance as a whole. This person strikes me as being racist and using legitimate positions to rationalize a way of thinking against a person, coupled with attempts to silence said person via ridicule. And hell yeah, I may be a white girl but I'm going to react to that.

I do apologize for insulting the poster, that was wrong of me and very small of me. I let my anger get in the way of good discussion. I do find it hard to relate when the person's first and only post includes slamming a long-time member and talented artist for legitimate anger, though. I'll try harder to treat a person who does that with more respect in the future in my replies.

Racial harmony --> Racial equity
Why can't we all just get along? Why can't we just have peace on earth? Why are “those people” so angry? I've been working on these questions all week. Here's what I've come up with: There can be no peace without justice. (Consider it; if you were discriminated against every day of your life based on something over which you had no control, would you be feeling harmonious with your oppressor?) There can be no justice without equity. So if we want peace and harmony, all we have to do is provide equity. Who's ready?

http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/resources/paradigmshifts_race.html

That's my answer to the poster's question. Sometimes people have to look out for their best interests. "Reverse racism" (as it is called) will have to go on for centuries with some amount of actual domination over the former oppressors for it to ever have the same connotations that it has to people of color right now. That's the thing about racism: as a whole white people have the power and the privilege--and have had the power and the privilege from time immemorial, which makes it so that societal constructs are tilted in their favor--so they can oppress where they want to based on color. Other people using their vote to in an action they believe will bring about more equality is not oppressive to you because there isn't an inherent power structure behind that decision backing up major facets of society.

So while it may be voting on that person based on their color, it does not have the same baggage that voting for a white person based on their color carries. The first carries the social baggage of wanting to make up for real wrongs that only recently began to be addressed. The second carries the social baggage of wanting to oppress those who were wronged. The first is conceivably okay and right, even if it minorly stamps on white people's toes. (Black people have had their toes stamped on quite enough, honestly, so why will it be the end of the world if white people suddenly experience it?) The second shouldn't be tolerated under any circumstances (IMO).

We're still not out from under that societal baggage, so I don't see how voting for someone based on the fact that they are black is the same as voting for someone based on the fact that they are white. The two carry very, very different connotations.

[Elam]

Go learn to not make a stupid dummy account (hint: your first post on a board shouldn't be a controversial one about racism) to post on a thread for practically the express purpose of saying "LOL if you are upset from racism, you're stupid/racist!" Prick.

No dummy accounts here. I've been a member off and on since 2002. I just find Obama threads fascinating because of the contradictions and emotive rambling they invariably release, which you have given a sterling example of. Take a deep breath. Count to 10.

But I'm curious: How does a person engaging in racism and bigotry actually solve the problem of racism and bigotry?
Redneck is not a race. Rednecks (forget the etymology) can change their social stereotyping by getting an education, selling their pickup and cutting their mullet. Can you guess where I'm going with this?
Eh, so presumably, calling a Mexican immigrant a wetback isn't a problem then either?

That's my answer to the poster's question. So [snip rambling] ...two carry very, very different connotations.

This is great. You have a whole mental construct validating what is essentially an illogical and tribal worldview.

I think you need to look up the word racist in the dictionary , because I don't think you know what it means.

[sve]

We're still not out from under that societal baggage, so I don't see how voting for someone based on the fact that they are black is the same as voting for someone based on the fact that they are white. The two carry very, very different connotations.

In my opinion if you vote for the person based on irrelevant to his/her future job features (color of skin, gender, amount of money he/she managed to raise for his election campaign) instead of his/her competence and skills and I would add his morality and good nature) ... well... then you are preparing your self for even wilder lottery.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

I'm actually...1/4th italian (just found that out) 1/4 Lakota/Other Native American unknown...about 1/8th Latvian (Germany) Jewish, and 1/4 Irish....1/16th dutch and french...

Somewhere on the Irish side there was Moorish descent black...my great grandfather Kellerblock escaped from what was about to become Nazi Germany.

My cultural upbringing is just as much of a soup...I remember visiting Amsterdam when my mother was just coming out of her Zen buddhist phase, I think she met my father right after have some sort of satori experience...we lived with a Hollander for a while, then to Frankfurt, Germany (great chocolate and kielbasa)

Then we went to Strasburg (France) where she married a Hindu from India and we went to a birthday for some prince from India, that was pretty faboo, we lived in France above a Vietnamese restaurant for a while, flew back to the States where I was boarded at a Vaishnivite temple.

Then she divorced him and I remember nothing but Native American stuff from then on....one pow wow after another....living amongst this or that tribe for the rest of my childhood...more recently she married into the Navajo and I am still amazed at how different the tribal cultures are...it's as varied as Europe, on a bigger scaled landmass, so of course the cultures are vastly different....

The most racism I remember growing up was from Native Americans..I got into more fist fights in highschool for being a half breed than any other race combined...this varied greatly with tribe, however...for instance the Lummi on the west were very accepting, whereas the Blackfoot over in MO where more cliqueish.

I also lived in Sandpoint Idaho, noted very heavy racism there towards Native Americans, and then when I was living in Georgia (married to a Chinese full blood) I was painfully aware of racism...blacks and whites segregated at proms and in marriages and the attitude of shock towards asians at all...I've heard "" shouted more than a few times....Tennessee is a little better, but the blacks here are racist towards whites...and the blacks are the only ones yelling "" at my ex...just as the whites are racist towards blacks...and again asians are just sort of "there" but then there are many many whites and blacks who don't see color...I don't!! When it's thrown in my face I'm not shocked anymore but it does bring me back into focus that we do not live in the ideal utopia I could hope for...

I find it ALL sickening...white people do not have to "pay" for their ancestors mistakes...if you want to get back at those slave owners, start by erasing their legacy...their mark on the world. Fight with love, not with more hate...don't encourage the division by calling white people rednecks. Some of my best friends and respected mentors are people who you might call "rednecks"...who are also culturally sensitive. The hate really has to stop.

Coming up out of all of this I only realized that we're all basically the same and the vast range of races only adds to the variety of interesting sexual partners we can have.

[fanficbug]

No dummy accounts here. I've been a member off and on since 2002.

So why create an account in "May 2008" and make your first post on it on a racially charged argument apparently for the sheer fascination/entertainment of doing so? That part isn't groking with me.

But I'm curious: How does a person engaging in racism and bigotry actually solve the problem of racism and bigotry?

"A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own."

I really doubt that someone who is voting because they want to set the precedent of having a Black person in office is really voting because they secretly hate all white people. I think it is more having to do with wanting to have an equal opportunity.

I'm not going to argue that I'm an authority based on the fact that I have friends who talk to me about this kind of stuff; I'm not a person of color, and the fact that I am friends with people of color only means I get a better look than those who isolate themselves. But I equally think that arguing that a significant majority of a group of people is essentially incapable of voting without prejudice is pretty wrong-headed.

I think you need to look up the word racist in the dictionary , because I don't think you know what it means.

And I think you need to learn how to read connotations (which are not the same as denotations), because they're an integral part of daily life whether you want to believe they are or not.

But, to humor you, here it is:

"racism: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race"

I still stand by my original statement: it is not abusive for others to seek remedies to the inequality of the system. The fact that there has never been a Black president due to societal constructs actively working against said race is an inequality.

Here's a quote that I very much subscribe to and believe in:

[W]hen a woman or a person of color says you don't get it, this is what you don't get. You don't get that it is false to say "we are all individuals," and foolish to wonder why we can't all treat each other this way; you have not had the experience of others experiencing you not on the basis of your "individuality" but because of a cloying set of stereotypes and attitudes the parameters of which you didn't set and over which you have no control. It has not been true for you as it has for others that the ways in which you are treated and the scale of opportunities afforded you are methodically distorted on the basis of these assumptions; these omnipresent distortions are not, therefore, visible to you in the routine, continual way in which they are inflicted upon others, and because of this you have been able to generalize your own experience, which is one of coordinated advantage, i.e. "privilege," to be that of (and normative for) any and all "human beings." This is a cognitive error, and to willfully keep making it is a condition we call "racism" or "sexism."'

In my opinion if you vote for the person based on irrelevant to his/her future job features (color of skin, gender, amount of money he/she managed to raise for his election campaign) instead of his/her competence and skills and I would add his morality and good nature) ... well... then you are preparing your self for even wilder lottery.

True. But my point was, it is not the same thing as systematically oppressing someone based on their color, which is the current connotations that racism has. The original poster's point was that it is racist, which is not true in the same sense that voting for a white person based on race is considered racist. Call stupid on it if you like, and I'm likely to agree with you. But I don't agree that it's racist.

(And on a completely unrelated note, not all of us are voting this way. Some are voting for Obama because they find him inspiring and see the fact that he is Black as a nice side bonus. Others are voting for Hillary because she has a lot of experience and they feel she has better ideas, and the fact that she is a woman is a nice side bonus to them. Me? I'm voting for neither at this point for reasons of my own. I was going to say that I've only felt comfortable with Gravel as a candidate, but really, he bothers me on several levels too. I guess I default back to Paul's statement that no matter what his personal views on a subject are, the people need to be the ones deciding. I like that kind of attitude, even if it IS completely unrealistic given the current system.)

[Elam]

So why create an account in "May 2008" and make your first post on it on a racially charged argument apparently for the sheer fascination/entertainment of doing so? That part isn't groking with me.
I simply have forgotten my old account. It's been a couple of years. I'm assuming it got deleted due to inactivity.

I really doubt that someone who is voting because they want to set the precedent of having a Black person in office is really voting because they secretly hate all white people. I think it is more having to do with wanting to have an equal opportunity.
Speak for yourself. That diatribe you went on earlier sounded pretty close to hatred to me. Are you the white version of the ABM? (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=angry+black+man) You sound like you hate yourself.

Besides, you didn't answer my question. You said:

"Reverse racism" (as it is called) will have to go on for centuries with some amount of actual domination over the former oppressors for it to ever have the same connotations that it has to people of color right now

So again I ask, how does engaging in reverse racism or domination solve the problem of racism?(hint, it doesn't. It exacerbates it.)

Racism, in it most common definition and as it's been commonly defined for decades means:
"1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. " (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism).

So, when Jermiah Wright, the pastor whom Obama sat for 20 years and listened to says that black and whites have different brain structures (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wfrjiADBBA), that racism. Not voting for someone because of their skin color is bigotry, not racism. And not agreeing with you and your opinions isn't racism either.

The fact that there has never been a Black president due to societal constructs actively working against said race is an inequality.
Yet, here we are on the cusp of electing a black president. How can a unequal system rigged against a Black man be about to elect one? I we elect a black person to the highest position in the land, do we really need "centuries of domination and reverse discrimination" as you put it? Your simply invalidating your own rather feeble argument.

[Ilaekae]

I'm sitting here...wondering...what the big deal is...because I voted in 1968 for a man named Dick Gregory for President of the United States.

The only conclusions I can come to is either that most of you don't know the first fucking thing about your own history, or Mr. Gregory was Chinese with a really dark tan.

[MDuckett]

Elam, you really need to read some books. I don't want to engage in any petty arguing here, but you are really coming off as slightly uneducated in these matters. Read some books, talk to some black history professors, and really try to have an understanding of race legacy. I understand quite well what you are saying because I had many of the same concerns. We may not believe that we should have to compensate for our ancestors' immorality, hell, few of my family were even born here, but as Americans, we have to take responsibility for the gross misconduct in our history. On the cusp of electing a black president? Then why would he have to water down his views and policies so much? Why did he have to disown Rev. Wright? All that Wright said were some very obvious condemnations of dangerous American policies, and things that we could expect any black preacher to say. He was being responsible.

I recommend reading:

Native Son, Richard Wright
Look Out Whitey! Black Power's Gon' Get Your Mama! Julius Lester

That second one is particularly good at subverting white apprehension about black power, and helps show reluctant whites the obvious specter of racism that still pervades the US. How can black people possibly be racist, man? I mean really, think about it objectively. Whites have it coming, and you have to understand it doesn't always mean you and me individually, but the white institution. 50 old, white presidents, and maybe possibly the chance of maybe possibly a black-ish president? We can only hope. You just really have to understand the status quo, and how it affects people other than yourself. Voting for a man because he's black isn't racist, trying to give power to any marginalized, exploited social caste can't be racist. It's responsible and morally right. and, shoot, he even has responsible social and economic policies to boot.

I really recommend those books.

[meltface]

I wonder how many times they had to edit out the N word


as for all the argument...I think the only thing we can really say is "sorry world"

....of course that is unless we plan to do something about it

[Elam]

All that Wright said were some very obvious condemnations of dangerous American policies, and things that we could expect any black preacher to say. He was being responsible.
Heh. He said, among other things, that the US Government deliberately invented AIDS to kill black people. Oh, and that whites and blacks have different brain structures(among other things.). Yes, that's responsible.

Then why would he have to water down his views and policies so much?

To do what every President in history of the Republic has had to do .. moderate. We're are, on the whole, a centrist nation historically, not a ideological one. I read Native Son in high school. Regardless, your not really saying anything substantiative.

btw, the US has either had 43 or 56 presidents, depending on how you look at it. Not 50. Ironic coming from a guy who labels others as uneducated.

[wassermelone]

Heh. He said, among other things, that the US Government deliberately invented AIDS to kill black people. Oh, and that whites and blacks have different brain structures(among other things.). Yes, that's responsible.

Fortunately, Wright isn't Obama and they don't have the same views.

[kev ferrara]

Ileakae... the point is that Barack Obama has a chance to win. Dick Gregory did not. (Although Dick Gregory was clearly the funnier man.)

Generally: The reason Rev. Wright "plays" politically is the obviously irrational fear that once Mr. Obama attains power he might demonstrate that he actually subscribes to the fascist-revolutionary notion that the white man "deserves" to be oppressed in order for historical justice to be served. Or as fanficbug put it: "GOD FORBID THE WHITE MAN POSSIBLY FACE A TASTE OF OPPRESSION"

That is a truly sick statement. Fanficbug... where you joking when you wrote that? Do actually believe that the only cure for past oppression is a more oppression? Or are you just preening for the cameras?

Or maybe you agree with MDuckett's brilliant racist formulation "Whites have it coming".

MDuckett... why not read a book whose premise you don't already agree with. Instead of pretending that you sit at the Olympian heights of enlightenment thought with your "vengeance prescription" model for future racial harmony.

[MDuckett]

whoa whoa, i don't pretend to have any sort of moral advantage here. And actually, I was quite skeptical of Lester and Wright before I read them. I still have a few personal objections with Bigger Thomas that I'd be happy to talk to you about. It would be a stretch to say that I agreed with these before I read them.

And I'm having a hard time figuring out where the ""vengeance prescription"" stuff was in my post. Was it the power-to-marginalized-peoples thing?

I don't mean to come off of as olympian-whatever here. I'm just saying, I had a buch of long talks with my old professors about this stuff, and because about 6 mo. ago I struggled with understanding these very same positions, and said some things similar to what Elam is asaying. I'm just sayin I realize how "uneducated" I was sounding when I said them, and that a forum is a dangerous place to say things. You reach a lot of strangers and remain anonymous.

Elam's positions smack of arguments that have little foundation in sound social theory, and little awareness of critical social analysis. That's all. I don't blame Elam for not being educated in this stuff, I'm not either.

I think it needs to be said that there is a solid, educated social dialog that he is engaging here and if one chooses, it is easy to find and educate yourself with. And reading books is a good way to understand. That, or maybe growing up with the people one is waxing philosophical about.

I'm trying to get educated, not morally superior. And trying to have an educated discussion, not an emotional argument.

Just don't get confused between oppression of whites and black power, because they're not remotely the same thing.

[SugaCrcl]

The critical word here is "people."

I can educate people.

I can't educate bottom-feeding shit-eating brain-dead racist assholes like these. They just...ain't people...

You can educate an individual. That's what I did as a Ron Paul supporter.

Call me a pessimist, I don't agree that you can educate people, because it's a totally different monster. That reporter could have destroyed that restaurant lady's ASSumptions that Obama was Muslim, but he held back. Sometimes you have to throw the book at some folks to get them to learn. And not to vote for someone just because he's Muslim, or how he looks is sad also. That reporter should have talked about issues, instead of identity. However, I give people of WV the benefit of the doubt, because I've never been up there. Folks I know here in NC are more open to the possibility of Obama being president, he won our state.

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - Agent K, MIB

[Elam]

Duckett, your arrogance is astounding. But I don't blame you for that either.

I'm curious, were you born and raised in Wisconsin?

Generally: The reason Rev. Wright "plays" politically is the obviously irrational fear that once Mr. Obama attains power he might demonstrate that he actually subscribes to the fascist-revolutionary notion that the white man "deserves" to be oppressed in order for historical justice to be served.
That's not why Wright resonates. He's abhorrent. Distasteful. Obama's platform is supposedly one of 'hope and change', yet this guy was his spiritual and intellectual mentor for 20 years?
Duckett, your arrogance is astounding. But I don't blame you for that either.

Edit:

Ok Duckett, scratch that last question. I read your website. Your a student, raised in lilly white Montana, with a black population of .50% and you now reside in lilly white Wisonson, black population 6%. So, obviously your enlightened view of race is from books, not experience.

Some people are beyond parody.

[eskanto]

White people don't deserve to be oppressed as a form of revenge.

Barack Obama is not a racist, hate spewing terrorist. Just as I believe McCain and Clinton are not out to oppress people of color if they were to get into office.

Reverend Wright is a fool. Reverend Wright is not Obama. Other Presidents have been linked to anti semtic religous leaders yet were still elected. Why is this different?

[MDuckett]

No sir. Born in Missouri. Just wound up here. Thanks for checkin in.

I apologize for any percieved arrogance. I honestly do. I don't know how I was being arrogant. I just think that its difficult for people outside of a certain set of circumstances to understand said circumstances, but easy to criticize from their own set of circumstances. Sorry I offended you, like I said, I meant to keep this educated and objective. I guess neither of us are familiar enough with the standing racial discourse. I've had a little academic study in the topic and thought I had something I could offer you. I just wanted to try to lend objectivity.

I guess my posts only spurred emotional personal retorts instead of constructive discussion. Sorry for the offense.

I guess we've lost the point. I'd love to talk Native Son with you sometime though. I might need a refresher.

EDIT:

What?! Montana?! Is that on my site? I've never lived in Montana. Oh, wait MO means Missouri, MT is montana. But my point maintains. This has dissolved into personal attacks.

[Elam]

I apologize for any percieved arrogance. I honestly do. I don't know how I was being arrogant. I just think that its difficult for people outside of a certain set of circumstances to understand said circumstances,
Your arrogant because your making assumptions about people for whom you know nothing about.

Learning about 'sound social theory' is all fine and well in the classroom, but it's called the Ivory Tower for a reason.

[eskanto]

Elam you don't have to be a jerk when you respond to people. Duckett apologized already.

[MDuckett]

That's my point about your arguments. Sorry everyone for the diversion. Let actual social discussion resume.

eskanto touches on a good point, that Obama's religious associations, which I'm sure were only ever highlighted to appease the religious zealots or the racist insistence that he is Muslim, shouldn't be presumed to define his platform. Who is McCain's religious advisor again....Pat Robertson? Talk about a fool.

[Peter Coene]

as for all the argument...I think the only thing we can really say is "sorry world"
Honestly I don't feel that we owe the world an apology. People have their oppinions and are entitled to those oppinions. I am not going to appologise to the Vatican for people who chose to use condoms or get abortions, not am I going to say sorry to the middle east for any westerners who like drawing cartoons of Mohammed. Likewise, I feel no need to say sorry to the world for people who hold predjudiced views about blacks.

Its an oppinion, I think its stupid and have the right to say so, but I still think they are entitled to it and it is not my place to appologise for it.

[Elam]

This has dissolved into personal attacks.
I haven't been rude to anyone. I haven't insulted anyone.

I'm merely making the point that your claiming that people should either learn about race through books or experience, which your assuming I haven't.

I was merely checking to see if you've actually had experience, which, from superficial appearances you haven't.

Who is McCain's religious advisor again
It ain't Pat Robertson. And Muslims aren't a race. They are practitioners of Islam, a multi-racial religion.

[kev ferrara]

7That's not why Wright resonates. He's abhorrent. Distasteful. Obama's platform is supposedly one of 'hope and change', yet this guy was his spiritual and intellectual mentor for 20 years?

While I do think that Wright's views are misinformed by his reading material and associations (For instance, the "AIDS was created in a U.S. lab" story was a KGB disinformation campaign that made it into the U.S. via the Nation magazine, which is a house organ of the left, to which he belongs) ....I disagree that Obama actually subscribes to these ideas. I think Obama is merely tolerant of Wright's more paranoid political views, rather than a proponent of them himself. Which is to say that I think his association with Wright, colored by his politically correct non-judgmentalism, was more a product of political convenience and his lack of a father-figure than out of deeply held religious conviction.

(I think there is a tendency for democrats to be religious to the extent that it will get them elected because of the inane religiousity litmus test that candidates seem obliged to pass in our current political climate. I often wonder if McCain is not similarly somewhat "faking it" for the sake of political expediency. Unfortunately the mass murder rate of the USSR in the 20th century guaranties that a bias against atheists will persist into the forseeable future.)

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

White people don't deserve to be oppressed as a form of revenge.

Barack Obama is not a racist, hate spewing terrorist. Just as I believe McCain and Clinton are not out to oppress people of color if they were to get into office.

Reverend Wright is a fool. Reverend Wright is not Obama. Other Presidents have been linked to anti semtic religous leaders yet were still elected. Why is this different?

Well, then, I think Obama should not go out of his way to show support for someone who is so outrageously racist. That IS Obama's responsibility.

I admit to being prejudiced against stupid people, and Obama was fucking stupid when he showed support for an extremely racist preacher. It's sickening.

[wassermelone]

That's not why Wright resonates. He's abhorrent. Distasteful. Obama's platform is supposedly one of 'hope and change', yet this guy was his spiritual and intellectual mentor for 20 years?

Wait, where did 'intellectual' mentor come from?

Spiritual mentor, yes. Intellectual mentor, no.

Obama has already disavowed himself of Wright. What more do you need? Are you calling him a liar?

Theres a lot of misinformation going on.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

wassermelone I'm interested, could you post a link to the report?

[wassermelone]

wassermelone I'm interested, could you post a link to the report?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html

Whats sickening is the media's tendency to make anything controversial HUGE... yet any clarifications that reduce the controversy have little to no air time. Its this reason parts of America still think that Obama is muslim or that he hates America because of what Wright said.

[Peter Coene]

Are you calling him a liar?
He's a politician. Whats the difference?

[wassermelone]

He's a politician. Whats the difference?

While I certainly don't think of him as the messiah as some of Obama's followers seem to believe... I really do think he has been honest during this campaign.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

Ironically I think I like him even less now that I see him touting Jesus as his personal savior....I'm soooo not into religion in politics...

Thanks for the link though...I'm not sure what effect it has...does it make him out to be a flake or what? Anyways this thread isn't about Obama, I'll just drop it...

[Peter Coene]

While I certainly don't think of him as the messiah as some of Obama's followers seem to believe... I really do think he has been honest during this campaign.
I don't trust any candidate to be honest, granted I trust Hillary less, but as soon as anyone gets into politics I refuse to take anything that they say at face value. Yes, he does come across as honest, but a good liar can even fake that.

[Elam]

I disagree that Obama actually subscribes to these ideas. I think Obama is merely tolerant of Wright's more paranoid political views, rather than a proponent of them himself. Which is to say that I think his association with Wright, colored by his politically correct non-judgmentalism, was more a product of political convenience and his lack of a father-figure than out of deeply held religious conviction.

I agree 90%. But the other 10% that I reserve is troublesome to me.

Do you think that the fact that Obama eschews flag pins on his collar(which he's wearing again!), or the the fact that Michelle Obama finds herself proud of her country for the *first* time in her life has anything to do with sitting in a church every Sunday listening to someone rant against the United States? Is it plausible that some of these ideas resonate ideologically with the Obama's, despite the fact they've both had successful careers in a country as 'racist' as the United States? That to me is most disconcerting. These two individuals have reaped the rewards of their country, but they have no problem with it being slandered in the most grotesque of ways. I can't recall a mainstream candidate in the last 50 years with that attitude.

Obama has already disavowed himself of Wright. What more do you need? Are you calling him a liar?
I would have liked if he had cut the relationship short 20 years ago. How long does it take to realize that the very Reverend Wright is anything but?

I get the sense that Obama has lived a rather sheltered political life. He's now got to appeal to a broad majority of Americans. Now, the whole anti-American thing may fly amongst guilt-ridden baby boomers and politically correct college campuses, but it won't amongst the rank and file of the country or West Virginia for that matter.

[kev ferrara]

Elam,

I think Barack is very much like Bill Clinton... (Which is why, IMHO, Bill Clinton has "issues" with him.) ...He is a talented and perceptive actor and is able to do what I call "charisma-frying". That is, he is able to short out the critical circuits of those who need to believe in his message by virtue of some performance instinct that he has honed over time that detects, then performs, what people are seeking emotionally.

I do not see him committed to leftist ideology so much as committed to this nebulous concept of political change that is more, say, 60s utopianist liberal multicultural internationalist pacifist, than some hard core 1917 style marxist "let's kill all the entrepreneurs" type revolution.

Honestly, I don't know what he stands for except the above-mentioned 60s populist roux. (Although if he can manage a sensible plan for universal health care that would be good by me. Not sure if its possible though.)

Which brings me to Michelle O. As it once seemed to be the case with Bill Clinton's better half, it now seems that it is Barack's wife who is the true believer in a McGovernite ideology, rather than Barack himself.

I do agree that Obama has led a sheltered political life, which seems weird given that he has come up in the Chicago democratic machine, which has long been understood to be one of the most sketchy political entities in the country.

And his intellectual formlessness really has me worried. I mean, there's no doubt he speaks clearly and openly in a refreshing way. And this might be good in terms of being a sort of inspiring spiritual leader of the country, (W's most brutal deficiency) but I can't detect his competency as a potential steward of the United States vast economy or the nation's security. I don't think he understands how much of geopolitics is a game of "chicken".

In particular, his "why haven't we invaded Pakistan and captured Osama Bin Laden yet" is maddening. If anyone can't figure out why we haven't captured OBL by now, they probably should be reading a book about geopolitics, rather than giving a speech about it. (Which is to say, Obama must know that he is praying on the lack of education of his audiences when he uses that line. I cannot believe that he is that ignorant of Pakistani politics.)

Mostly I am worried about his wide-eyed online fan base, most of whom traded in their Che Guevera t-shirts for their new beloved leader's Change face tee only last year. I really hope that, when all is said and done, that those rabid followers feel utterly betrayed by Obama as he gets politically educated.

The flag pin, the refusal to say the pledge, etc... I think that's all the confused posturing of man who has not yet shaken off his political adolescence, in my opinion. His association with academia would have given him the notion that every instance of nationalism or flag waving is pure jingoism pandering to the lowest tribal instincts in mankind in defiance of the inevitable international-democratic-socialist super-utopia to come. I don't think he believes that with any more conviction than he believes anything else. I do, however, believe his wife believes that.

But these are all just my opinions. Which are as valueless as, say, Illeakae's.

[Ilaekae]

...and don't you forget it, either...

[James Kei]

Kev, what are your thoughts on McCain?

Better? or worse than Obama?

[Chingwa]

McCain? Who's that? ...... OOHhhh you mean McNutter!

[Peter Coene]

I do not see him committed to leftist ideology so much as committed to this nebulous concept of political change that is more, say, 60s utopianist liberal multicultural internationalist pacifist, than some hard core 1917 style marxist "let's kill all the entrepreneurs" type revolution.
Right, because we all know that the '68 Democratic caucuses were oh-so-peacefull.

Also remember that the 1917 marxists were "pacifists" as well; pulling Russia out of WW1. In fact, if you look at it in the right light you have a similar situation: A political figure who thinks too much of himself gets his nation involved in a pointless war that the people don't like. A faction that supports bold new ideas and change overturns his rule and ends the war, instead turning the nation's ire against those who supported the previous regime. You even have the "white commies" and the "red commies" in that Obama is kind of like Trotsky in that he apears to beleive the shit he is saying and seems to be a nice guy, while Hillary is like Stalin in that I wouldn't put it past her to have an icepick rammed into Obama's skull.

Kev, what are your thoughts on McCain?

Better? or worse than Obama?
I realise that this was directed at Kev, but figured I'd throw in my 2 bits.

McCain seems to be better grounded in reality than Obama, but I like Obama more. I like using a killing babies metaphore on this; suppose a person had the choice where they could end all the suffering in the world at the price of killing one innocent baby with their bare hands. I think McCain is the type of guy who would do it whereas Obama would face a moral dilemma. Its for this very weakness that I like Obama, and thus think he might make an ok president, but also for the same reason I think McCain would make an ok president. Both are acceptable to me but for opposite reasons.

[Sundance]

Instead of thinking you know...why don't you read about what he stands for and what he believes in.
http://factcheck.barackobama.com/

[s.ketch]

I like using a killing babies metaphore on this; suppose a person had the choice where they could end all the suffering in the world at the price of killing one innocent baby with their bare hands. I think McCain is the type of guy who would do it whereas Obama would face a moral dilemma. Its for this very weakness that I like Obama, and thus think he might make an ok president, but also for the same reason I think McCain would make an ok president. Both are acceptable to me but for opposite reasons.

Except replace baby with "the United States of America" or "the futures and lively hoods of millions of people."

[wassermelone]

Thought the attached photo was pretty interesting.

Say what you want about Obama, but he gets people actually interested in politics again. Estimates at 75000 people showing up to hear him speak in Portland. 20-30 thousand showed up to hear him in Texas of all places.

[kev ferrara]

Instead of thinking you know...why don't you read about what he stands for and what he believes in.
http://factcheck.barackobama.com/

Sundance... I never said I didn't read what Obama stands for. I said I didn't know what he stands for.

Which is to say, for example, that the first story on the link you provided is classic cynical populist political manipulation. We've been speaking with Iran all along through back channels and in close collaboration with Europe. That has been the international "allied" policy for years. The effort hasn't been successful (much to Europe's embarrassment, as it was their plan.) We don't talk directly to Ahmadinejad for a number of reasons, the most important of which is the fact that his regime is unstable and a high level visit from us would increase his stability and authority in his own country and in the middle east. That would be counter-productive. We would like him to be toppled in a coup. We really don't want to see an Iran v Saudi Arabia (shia v sunni) battle for domination of Islam, which is a stronger possiblity if Ahmadinejad was legitimized internationally and nationally. I am sure Obama's advisors know this. But they also know "not talking hasn't worked" is a very effective sound bite to put into the mouths of those who aren't actually paying attention but would like to sound informed.

All to say, Sundance, do a little independent research before you get up on your high horse. Even Ghandi wasn't Ghandi. (Although Einstein was Einstein, strangely enough.)

This post has been my opinion. Not that of the Conceptart.org management, Illaekae, Blockbuster Video, The Rosicrucians, Elmo, The World Poker Tour, The Editorial Staff of "Get High Immediately" Magazine, or Islamophobes International Clothing, Apparel and Offshore Drilling Inc. LLC. Thank you for your patience, kind understanding and barely readable anonymous witty aphorisms written on the backs of envelopes offering credit cards you already own.

Peace,
kev

[James Kei]

Ok Kev, if you were president, how would you approach Iran?
All I'm hearing from you is analysis and criticisms. I'd like to hear solutions. Have you any?

You still haven't answered my question about McCain. Or do you only study the enemy (liberals)?


McCain? Who's that? ...... OOHhhh you mean McNutter!

No, I mean McDinosaur. Dude is so old, I'm just waiting for his dentures to fall out during his next speech. Or collapse of old age.
What will really entertain me is the look on his face when Obama destroys him in the debates.
Superficial, yes. But American politics is a spectator sport, right? Live performance is everything.

[kev ferrara]

James, I wrote a whole post on McCain late last night and for some reason it didn't post and I haven't felt like re-writing yet.

Your sense that I consider Liberals "enemies" is ludicrous. Most of my favorite people in the world are Liberals and I consider myself a Neocon, which is, according to hoyle, "a liberal that has been mugged by reality." So I have great kinship with liberals. I just consider the more radical utopianist liberals to be misguided to the point of being fantasy-driven. Some dangerously so. Most just unhealthily so. Yet, I do believe that the world will eventually get to point where science has created the conditions for something like an international socialist framework of nations. But I think the quickest way to get there is through dynamic market forces driving innovation married to govermental monetary encouragement free from the constraints of needless beaurocracies (DARPA and NIH being the best examples of well functioning Government agencies that promote technical innovation.)

As far as criticizing Obama's rhetoric on Iran, bullshit should always be called bullshit, no matter who said it. There is an old Jewish intellectual tradition that before arguing about anything, there must be an argument about the quality of the discourse itself first. If only the media had an iota of this kind of integrity. (C-Span being the notable, possibly single, exception.)

As far as "what to do about Iran..." Iran is enormously difficult. Everybody knows that. It may simply be a frustrating waiting game that will win the day. Although it may be true that Israel will take out their reactors before our November election. If not, our mini cold war with Persia will continue, so long as Russia remains behind them.

But Russia is having trouble of its own, so who knows. As Russia and Iran and Venezuela have been trying to squeeze us on oil, we may find an opportunity to squeeze them at some point down the line. Either way, over time, there is going to be further upticks in the price of oil as China and India continue their rise. So this will accrue more power to that axis. But the transformative new technologies are coming that will disempower both Russia and Iran and Venezuela by devaluing oil. To expedite the arrival of the new tech is the way to go, in my opinion. The very threat alone might bring down the price of oil.

To that end, my solution would be to declare a Manhatten project for energy and to offer goverment matching funds to all x-prizes related to transformational energy tech. Also massive tax credits to renewable energy companies. And I would encourage each state to set up an energy-czar type position at the Gubenetorial level to oversee the development of renewable energy infrastructure state by state. I would also recommend that each state offer state tax credits to renewable energy companies. I would put on a huge dog and pony show to demonstrate to the world that we are serious as a heart attack about renewables. I would call on all other countries to join in the project on their own and offer ambassador scientists to visit their facilities to share information.

I would also set up an environmental watchdog group to oversee environmentally friendly ANWR drilling. The very fact of our declaring our willingness to drill in ANWR might very well bring down the price of oil. I'd also strongly encourage drilling elsewhere and some new refineries to be built.

Bringing down the price of oil will buy us time until the new tech comes online.

kev

By the way, it is really bad form to mock the more grizzled motherfuckers among us. Lest ye wake up one morning to find Progeria has struck by night.

[Duq]

But American politics is a spectator sport, right?

To bad all the teams suck.

[Peter Coene]

Except replace baby with "the United States of America" or "the futures and lively hoods of millions of people."

I think you don't get the point here. Both of them want to help the USA, the difference is what they think is the best way of going about doing so.

[wassermelone]

My problems with McCain:

1. His age. I don't necessarily think hes useless because of his age... but his Vice Presidential choice hasn't been made known yet. Its going to be of increasing importance considering that he has a much higher chance of dieing during a presidency than other candidates now and in previous years.

2. I'm not really sure what his position on things is. I don't think flip flopping is necessarily bad because I think in certain cases you WANT someone who can listen to all the information and can change his mind. But McCain says things and then the next day will contradict himself. I just don't know if hes the maverick he seemed to be 8+ years ago and hes playing the neoconservative to try and get in bed with the conservative voters... or he really has shifted towards unthinking conservatism.

3. Hagee. McCain sought out Hagee's support. I don't know if this was part of his 'appeal to fundamentalists' plans that some people believe hes doing or what. I know he disavowed himself of Hagee's comments on Catholics... but theres plenty of craziness Hagee has said that McCain has no comment on. This is a different situation that Wright considering McCain actually sought Hagee's political support.

I've tried doing research on him... but I really have no clue what is going on with McCain. Hes kind of comes across as a nutcase nowadays. Well... even if he does win he can't be as bad as Bush.

[James Kei]

Speaking of Hagee.
In addition to my first post, another reason I'm not going to throw in the towel just yet, is that there is a staggering number of young Americans that no longer attend church, or have never attended church. This number is growing exponentially.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with church, as I believe it has it's purposes. The good news is the the evangelical influence will play much less a role in future politics. It's the damed evangelical vote that awarded W. Bush the big chair twice.

Kev, great post, but I have a hard time believing that you are a neocon. Do you really believe in Leo Strauss' ideals?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2798679275960015727&hl=en

[Peter Coene]

if you were president, how would you approach Iran?
All I'm hearing from you is analysis and criticisms. I'd like to hear solutions. Have you any?
Continue overtly treating them like a backwater not worth our time/effort while covertly learning everything possible about them.

In the meanwhile concentrate on the Israel/Palestine situation without pampering Israel. I don't care if they have been there for 60 years, so far they have given us no major advantage in the area, they have no oil or any other resources that we need, and our continuing support has only earned us a bad name.

However, dropping support to Israel on the spot would not be easy and would be too obvious; instead the trick would be to implement a foreign policy that sends the message that we are sick of supplying them using the oil and other resources we have supplied them with to attack the nations that we are trying to improve diplomatic relations with, not to mention that they are the nations we got the oil from in the 1st place.

After that continue supplying them but with said threat floating over their heads and wait for major violence to break out there as it does every 4-8 years. (if it takes too long then instigate something and make it look like it was done by one side or the other) As soon as it does use the media to portray Israel as over-reacting and use that as an excuse to pull aid from Israel and giving a covert wink to the Arab powers that we have somewhat peaceful relations with (Saudis, Jordanians, etc) while staying neutral. Regaurdless of being better armed and trained the Israelis will run out of fuel in no time and will be forced back to a point that the Arab nations no longer gripe about them.

At this point they can stab each other in the back without doing any of this posturing about who is the biggest Israel hater, etc etc. We'll let the Sunni and Shia have their foolish little war about who is the bestest type of Muslem and all the while we will sit there holding our hands back going "We learned our lesson from Iraq, we're staying out of this one... btw, you think while you guys are fighting you could give us some oil on the cheep?

In the end, after the two have duked it out and look like they are both weak enough for a stalemate (or at least a momentary one) step in offering diplomacy, have a big ceremony where the Sunni and Shia shake hands, kiss and make up.

In the end, we removed the Israel issue, look like the good guys without blowing things up, and can can still occupy both areas if we send in the peace corps and send in military as their "protection."

Granted, this outcome would piss off the Jewish population in America and may have the effect of killing my political chances afterwards, but thats a sacrifice I would be willing to make.

What will really entertain me is the look on his face when Obama destroys him in the debates.
Superficial, yes. But American politics is a spectator sport, right? Live performance is everything.
Yeah... just like how Edwards was expected to destroy Cheney in the VP debates last time arround? If anyone remembers those debates it was as if Cheney unhinged his jaw and swallowed Edwards' soul.

[Duq]

Continue overtly treating them like a backwater not worth our time/effort while covertly learning everything possible about them.

In the meanwhile concentrate on the Israel/Palestine situation without pampering Israel. I don't care if they have been there for 60 years, so far they have given us no major advantage in the area, they have no oil or any other resources that we need, and our continuing support has only earned us a bad name.

However, dropping support to Israel on the spot would not be easy and would be too obvious; instead the trick would be to implement a foreign policy that sends the message that we are sick of supplying them using the oil and other resources we have supplied them with to attack the nations that we are trying to improve diplomatic relations with, not to mention that they are the nations we got the oil from in the 1st place.

After that continue supplying them but with said threat floating over their heads and wait for major violence to break out there as it does every 4-8 years. (if it takes too long then instigate something and make it look like it was done by one side or the other) As soon as it does use the media to portray Israel as over-reacting and use that as an excuse to pull aid from Israel and giving a covert wink to the Arab powers that we have somewhat peaceful relations with (Saudis, Jordanians, etc) while staying neutral. Regaurdless of being better armed and trained the Israelis will run out of fuel in no time and will be forced back to a point that the Arab nations no longer gripe about them.

At this point they can stab each other in the back without doing any of this posturing about who is the biggest Israel hater, etc etc. We'll let the Sunni and Shia have their foolish little war about who is the bestest type of Muslem and all the while we will sit there holding our hands back going "We learned our lesson from Iraq, we're staying out of this one... btw, you think while you guys are fighting you could give us some oil on the cheep?

In the end, after the two have duked it out and look like they are both weak enough for a stalemate (or at least a momentary one) step in offering diplomacy, have a big ceremony where the Sunni and Shia shake hands, kiss and make up.

In the end, we removed the Israel issue, look like the good guys without blowing things up, and can can still occupy both areas if we send in the peace corps and send in military as their "protection."

Granted, this outcome would piss off the Jewish population in America and may have the effect of killing my political chances afterwards, but thats a sacrifice I would be willing to make.



cYj1nkwMp4k

Couldnt resist

[s.ketch]

I think you don't get the point here. Both of them want to help the USA, the difference is what they think is the best way of going about doing so.

Thats not what you said though. You said McCain would sacrifice one for the greater good while Obama sits there and ponders a moral dilemma.

My point is that its a bit deeper than just sacrificing one person, and a lot of thought is in order because it is a moral dilemma. After all, what is best for the United States is relative to every citizen. What do you sacrifice, and how much? Another 3000+ dead soldiers and a hundred of thousands more injured to subdue Iran? Constitutional rights for protection? Billions more tax dollars? Yours, mine, and probably over half of everyone's future to keep fighting this war for 10 more years? The economy to end oil dependence?

Any candidate should be facing moral dilemmas with these issues, they should have to spend some time thinking everything out and not just going head first gung ho' into a something they don't understand.

We're not in a world where carrying big guns into another country will solve anything or make a country a super power. Now is a time for brain power, thought, invention, technology, and a new world. Honestly, I dont feel that from any candidate.

[kev ferrara]

James Kei, do you really believe that video? Scary music and everything? Come on. You know how propaganda works, don't you?

Instead of believing such stuff, why not actually get out a book by Leo Strauss and read it? Why not actually read what the neocons were criticizing about the left during the 60s? Do you know why Neocons split with the left after Kruschev's "secret" speech in '56? Who do you think first pointed out the unintended consequences of goverment-backed social programs that were born of the best of intentions?

1GqDe6zN_mk

When you get into what is going on in politics you learn is that the left makes every effort possible to destroy and demonize neocons and prevent people from reading anything they say. The question you need to answer for yourself is, "why?" The scary Leo Strauss stuff is just the latest successful attempt at demonization. They also successfully re-branded Neocon as an epithet for "Imperial Islamophobic Zionest Jew" which is a wonderful cudgel for bigots everywhere. Which is all part of the flowering of anti-semitism on the left since Israel foiled the USSR's plans for Middle East domination in 1967. This goes back to the whole Cold War thing and the fact that Israel became an ally of the U.S. rather than Russia and that drove Stalin nuts and how that led to the subsequent doctors plot thing and blah blah blah... It is way too large a subject to go into.

Suffice it to say, my friend, if you only hear one side of the story, your mind is not your own.

[fanficbug]

That is a truly sick statement. Fanficbug... where you joking when you wrote that? Do actually believe that the only cure for past oppression is a more oppression? Or are you just preening for the cameras?

I am sorry for not making this more clear (see, this is what happens when you shoot from the hip :P). First off, no, I don't think Barack Obama is going to oppress whites by virtue of his being given office. I think if you do think that (not saying that you, personally, do--but using "you" as a collective here) you should think very hard about racism. Just because Barack Obama knows and was close to a racist (who he has now disavowed) doesn't mean that he's automatically going to be racist. Arguing that point is like arguing that since I was very close to my grandmother (who was a racist) I'm going to be a racist. I haven't even disavowed her and I don't think you guys think that I am a racist (on the contrary, I've been accused of hating myself and being the white version of an "Angry Black Man"--which frankly, the issue of whether I hate myself is not up for discussion or relevant here, and ABM is considered a racially hateful stereotype [at least where I come from], so I don't recommend you bring up either of them again).

I try to take a more reality-based view on racism. See, while I can see how voting for someone just because they're black is considered racist from a purely "meaning of the word" standpoint . . . It isn't the same. It can't be the same, because black people don't get the same benefits from the system on such a widespread scale as white people do.

I've been thinking about this a lot since yesterday and the best example I can come up with is when Hillary Clinton talks about women's issues and how she's championed women's reproductive health by going for choice . . . her website says "Hillary has fought the relentless and insidious efforts by far-right Republicans to limit the protections of Roe v Wade, while also working hard to expand access to family planning services." You know what, that's completely sexist. Her decision to support Roe v. Wade is based entirely on the fact that it's a women's issue. And a LOT of people think that a ton of bad things are going to happen because she's basically championing abortion here--some people even think it will lead to the world ending. But I don't think you can say it's an entirely bad thing and wrong for everyone, even if you disagree with it. I had to get an abortion to save my life in October. Yes, I could literally be dead now if it wasn't for Roe v. Wade. I'm told that while my abortion was considered "non-elective" and "emergency surgery" that it's still an issue because people think that if God decides to put a baby in me wrong that it's him saying that I should die. I've even had a few people tell me as much, albeit over the internet, so I take it with a grain of salt. But you know what? Fuck that. I think Roe v. Wade has at least done some good things and I think it's good that Hillary is essentially being sexist here.

So what good things will being racist and voting for Obama do? Well, for starters, it'll put the precedent out there. A black man would have served as President. That is valuable to a lot of people. Beyond that, the fact that he's made it this far as a candidate means he carries a lot of value to a lot of people. You could argue the opposite of course, but that's just politics as usual.

But at the same time, it doesn't carry the same tone of oppression and hatred that whites being racist towards blacks carries, because there isn't an inherent power structure that benefits blacks/people of color like there is one that benefits whites (and if you don't think there isn't a power structure that benefits whites, you need to go take a long time thinking about racism and re-read JL.Afaro's post here (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1762480#post1762480)). So I don't think it's necessarily the same kind of racism that Elam is talking about. It's considerably more benign and in at least a few peoples' cases (my friends) so far as I can tell it's completely benign.

Well... even if he does win he can't be as bad as Bush.

I've been telling myself that through this entire election. I don't really like any of the candidates 100% (I wouldn't even say I like any of them 50%, except that I hate to be so negative). At least there's a strong chance that they won't be as bad as Bush.

[Peter Coene]

Thats not what you said though. You said McCain would sacrifice one for the greater good while Obama sits there and ponders a moral dilemma.

My point is that its a bit deeper than just sacrificing one person, and a lot of thought is in order because it is a moral dilemma. After all, what is best for the United States is relative to every citizen. What do you sacrifice, and how much? Another 3000+ dead soldiers and a hundred of thousands more injured to subdue Iran? Constitutional rights for protection? Billions more tax dollars? Yours, mine, and probably over half of everyone's future to keep fighting this war for 10 more years? The economy to end oil dependence?
Would you mind explaineing how you plan to solve those issues without making those sacrifices?

Any candidate should be facing moral dilemmas with these issues, they should have to spend some time thinking everything out and not just going head first gung ho' into a something they don't understand.
So then you are making the claim that McCain does not understand?

We're not in a world where carrying big guns into another country will solve anything or make a country a super power. Now is a time for brain power, thought, invention, technology, and a new world. Honestly, I dont feel that from any candidate.
Did I say anything about carrying big guns? As for brain power, thought, invention, and technology; thats not a presidents job. If those things pop up then yeah, the president should use them to his advantage. However as it is whoever gets the job is only left with a certain set of selections. Expecting some great new invention has just a little bit of a better chance than space invaders showing up and solving all of our problems.

[James Kei]

When you get into what is going on in politics you learn is that the left makes every effort possible to destroy and demonize neocons and prevent people from reading anything they say.



The same could be said of conservatives.

Unless the neocon's can come up with an enticing documentary of the same caliber of the one that I've posted, Leo's word simply wont reach people. Documentary's can be propaganda, but so can books. Unfortunately for you, I represent the majority, in that I don't bury myself in stacks political textbooks and memoirs, analyzing the intentions of all sides. All I have is online media.

Documentary's are quickly becoming the standard in which young Americans are getting their information. It's just easier to digest than books. Neocon's and conservatives need to step it up and get their own film making propaganda prodigies, and post it up on youtube, get it into theaters, or they will get buried under the Obama, Michael Moore hype machine. Fox news just aint gonna cut it anymore. Whoever puts on the best show, wins. The internet media structure is the best way to get ones opinion out there.
Maybe you can use your artistic skills in the arena of film making? Show us what Leo Strauss is all about? Or maybe even make a song about him?
The majority simply doesn't have the attention span to read long winded, highly complex political rants on art forums that reference obscure events in history that nobody with an average education has ever heard of.

[Peter Coene]

The same could be said of conservatives.

Unless the neocon's can come up with an enticing documentary of the same caliber of the one that I've posted, Leo's word simply wont reach people. Documentary's can be propaganda, but so can books. Unfortunately for you, I represent the majority, in that I don't bury myself in stacks political textbooks and memoirs, analyzing the intentions of all sides. All I have is online media.
Not something to be proud of.

Documentary's are quickly becoming the standard in which young Americans are getting their information. It's just easier to digest than books.
And getting a bigmac takes a lot less effort than preparing a homecooked meal, but that doesn't make it healthy.

Neocon's and conservatives need to step it up and get their own film making propaganda prodigies, and post it up on youtube, get it into theaters, or they will get buried under the Obama, Michael Moore hype machine. Fox news just aint gonna cut it anymore. Whoever puts on the best show, wins. The internet media structure is the best way to get ones opinion out there.
Or they can avoid sinking to that level while the dems churn out rediculous bs that makes everyone's eyes roll with lovely titles like "Stupid White Men."

Maybe you can use your artistic skills in the arena of film making? Show us what Leo Strauss is all about? Or maybe even make a song about him?
...or not.

The majority simply doesn't have the attention span to read long winded, highly complex political rants on art forums that reference obscure events in history that nobody with an average education has ever heard of.
So, if one of the things I want to do is reduce stupidity then I need to present it in a way that stupid people can understand?

[James Kei]

Never said I was proud if it. I'd like to read more, but my interests in politics aren't great enough to get into it too deeply.
I'd rather read sci-fi novels, anyhow. (Though some political literature can pass as such)
That, and time constraints. You know, the job thing?
Online media is nice and quick, so that people can watch a clip or two on their lunch break.

And don't pretend that conservatives have churned out any bullshit at all.


The last comment you made is right on the money, just replace "stupid' with "uninformed".



And peter, unless you change your avatar, I'm not going to respond to you anymore. ;)

[Peter Coene]

And peter, unless you change your avatar, I'm not going to respond to you anymore. ;)
aww, my art isn't THAT bad, is it?

[kev ferrara]

Unless the neocon's can come up with an enticing documentary of the same caliber of the one that I've posted, Leo's word simply wont reach people. Documentary's can be propaganda, but so can books. Unfortunately for you, I represent the majority, in that I don't bury myself in stacks political textbooks and memoirs, analyzing the intentions of all sides. All I have is online media.

James,

I am glad to say there is a very large, but boring place in society where all the bubblegum and noise of partisan politics, race baiting, and personality cults, and maoist art, is dismissed out of hand as unserious. To put out a dazzling video ad for this contemplative place would be to miss the point of its existence entirely, I think. Better to leave the island as it is, rather than billboard it to attract tourists. An interest in this island, where some semblance of integrity in discourse is attempted, is something people come to or not.

Just to be clear, I believe attempts at integrity have no party affiliation. Equally "informed" people can easily still disagree on fundamental points of human nature and social dynamics and "the way forward." When I am asked questions, I try to give the answers that I think make sense. Whether what I believe has anything in common with reality, is for others to decide or not.

Which is all to say, whether you are interested personally in verifying the political media you consume or not, on this particular island of rational discussion, matters not at all to me. Your education is your own.

kevbot

[James Kei]

aww, my art isn't THAT bad, is it?

Nah, it's not drawn badly, it's just a bit disturbing. When I read your posts, I imagine a talking rabid corpse.
You see, the best way to get people to take you seriously is associate yourself with a hypnotizing image of an animated thong. :D

[Ilaekae]

...or an anthropomorphic feline currently wearing a scuba mask. :P

[Peter Coene]

Nah, it's not drawn badly, it's just a bit disturbing. When I read your posts, I imagine a talking rabid corpse.
You see, the best way to get people to take you seriously is associate yourself with a hypnotizing image of an animated thong. :D
better?

[tensai]

or...

well whatever.

[Jasonwclark]

Documentary's are quickly becoming the standard in which young Americans are getting their information. It's just easier to digest than books. Neocon's and conservatives need to step it up and get their own film making propaganda prodigies, and post it up on youtube, get it into theaters, or they will get buried under the Obama, Michael Moore hype machine. Fox news just aint gonna cut it anymore. Whoever puts on the best show, wins. The internet media structure is the best way to get ones opinion out there.

CSPAN and PBS are probably the only channels on television that even attempt to be informative these days; NPR/PRI might encourage you to turn on the radio every now and again, but the AM/FM dial is a wasteland for the most part. The internet is great, if you know what you're looking for, but it's so nebulous when it comes to this sort of thing, that I'm not sure where you'd go for direction. The Brookings and Cato institutes do a fairly good job of framing the broader political discourse, but that sort of material doesn't lend itself very well to youtube. Some figures, like Chomsky, can hold the viewers' attention for a while, but those guys are few and far between.

The sad truth is that it's pretty rare to witness a sustained, insightful debate (on any subject, in any medium, at any point time)... Much rarer for someone to film it... and rarer still, to get enough production behind that film for it compete with other forms of video entertainment, while still maintaining its intellectual integrity.

Maybe we should start sending more kids to film school. Or school our filmmakers. Or something like that….

[Bubs]

James Kei, I like your avatar.

Them's some hypnotic hips, I tell you what.

[s.ketch]

Would you mind explaineing how you plan to solve those issues without making those sacrifices?


Again, you're running away with what im saying here. You infer that I said no sacrifice is required, which isn't what I said. Only that a great amount of thinking should be put into those kinds of decisions, something you made out to be the weakness of a candidate. One more time, these choices do require a great amount of working out and I think any normal human being would have to take a bit of time to think these large matters through. Not that I support that candidate, just that I think every single one of them should be taken aback by the clusterfuck that is the current state of the world.


So then you are making the claim that McCain does not understand?


No. Stop reading in between the lines. I am not against McCain, I am not for him either. I was simply stating what think to be an important requirement for any candidate, no matter who they are. This is just really easy common sense type stuff. Fits all parties, races, genders and ages.


Did I say anything about carrying big guns? As for brain power, thought, invention, and technology; thats not a presidents job. If those things pop up then yeah, the president should use them to his advantage. However as it is whoever gets the job is only left with a certain set of selections. Expecting some great new invention has just a little bit of a better chance than space invaders showing up and solving all of our problems.

I think a president should know whats going on. I think a president should know how to use a cell phone and how to surf the internet. He/She should be well rounded in all aspects of life. And a great new invention would solve our energy problems and possibly end our usage of foreign resources. Aliens would be pretty cool though. It will be like Independence Day except Obama (if elected) could be Will Smith and Bill Pullman at the same time.

[Slash]

Hey, i just noticed that the brain types "THX 1138" on the blackboard! Awesome!

[Peter Coene]

Again, you're running away with what im saying here. You infer that I said no sacrifice is required, which isn't what I said. Only that a great amount of thinking should be put into those kinds of decisions, something you made out to be the weakness of a candidate.
Now you are misinterpreting my oppinion. I meant to present it as both a strength and a weakness, and the same with the alternative of making up ones mind quickly and resolutely. All allong I have said that I would be torn between the two candidates, do you honestly think that could be the case if I did not see their strengths and weaknesses as being equal though not the same?

One more time, these choices do require a great amount of working out and I think any normal human being would have to take a bit of time to think these large matters through. Not that I support that candidate, just that I think every single one of them should be taken aback by the clusterfuck that is the current state of the world.
They would be taken aback if they didn't realise it already. If either candidate is not familiar with how screwed up the world is then he does not deserve to be president. If he is familiar with it then he knows he will face those issues and either plans to do as I expect from McCain and block out one part of his concience to appease another with the fact that he has done so for a greater good, or else do as I expect from Obama and try to weigh it out but still get caught for fear of selling his soul, but realise that he must do so to make any decision.

No. Stop reading in between the lines. I am not against McCain, I am not for him either. I was simply stating what think to be an important requirement for any candidate, no matter who they are. This is just really easy common sense type stuff. Fits all parties, races, genders and ages.
But it is only part of the issue, and if you only look at that part it paints McCain in a bad light, whereas if you look at the overall big picture you realise that both candidates are screwed. BTW, if you don't want me to read between the lines don't state things in a way that seems to support one and noth the other.

I think a president should know whats going on. I think a president should know how to use a cell phone and how to surf the internet. He/She should be well rounded in all aspects of life. And a great new invention would solve our energy problems and possibly end our usage of foreign resources. Aliens would be pretty cool though. It will be like Independence Day except Obama (if elected) could be Will Smith and Bill Pullman at the same time.
Yes, it would be great, however, inventions take a lot of time before they can be implemented by the public. The hybrid engine, for example, was unveiled in the mid 90's, yet 10 years later we are still barely implementing them in vehicles, most of which are still somewhat experimental. Considering that there was probably quite a bit of adjusting and refinement from the time when it was 1st unveiled to the point of being unveiled that puts us at about 15 years. That is for an engine that still requires gas to run.

Now consider that scientists expect it will take at least 40 years to develope an afordable solar car. In other words, that is IF they get all of those scientific breakthroughs you are referring to. They also have figured out that if the world continues as is is right now we have 30 years worth of gas left to burn. If China continues to expand at its current rate (even if the US were to cut back fuel consumption to the point at which we are choking the life out of our own industry and economy) then that number will be less.

The best case scenario in which we have a neo-rennaissance of scientific discovery and China stops growing alltogether still sets us to run out of fossil fuels before we have a viable alternative. So instead you are left with the question of what to do: Ration gas or even make driving alltogether illegal so as to keep the fuel for the government? Try to procure what little oil is left by going to war for it? Screw up nature even more by setting hydroelectric dams in every river? extract the body oils from human corpses after they die and try to burn that? The only effective answers require major sacrifices which will not be improving morale in this country. A scientific breakthrough, unless its a time machine, isn't going to help us here.

[Jason Manley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c

Best political vid all week.

McCain is a decietful, warmongering, fear exploiting, corporate minion who has so many lobbyists running his campaign that he should dress up his suit in corporate logos like a damn nascar.

In the meantime, after seeing that vid, I can not honestly tell when the man is lying or when he is telling the truth. Can you?

[eskanto]

In the meantime, after seeing that vid, I can not honestly tell when the man is lying or when he is telling the truth. Can you?

But isn't that the problem? Finding unbiased info about these politicians to develop a clear viewpoint? Couldn't I find a similiar video with damning sound bites about Clinton or Obama?

[Elam]

But isn't that the problem? Finding unbiased info about these politicians to develop a clear viewpoint? Couldn't I find a similiar video with damning sound bites about Clinton or Obama?
Of course, but logic doesn't penetrate the brick heads of ideologues and partisans.

As an example, the video uses a quote from McCain saying "If I were in charge(of Katrina), I would have been on the ground ... etc". Then it pans to Keith olbermann, yeah that erudite ESPN anchor, saying "Where was McCain when Katrina made landfall? With George Bush in Arizona". ie "McCain is a liar because he said he would be on the ground and he wasn't."

Let's ignore the fact that McCain WASN"T IN CHARGE at the time and was a Senator of Arizona. So naturally, that's were he would be. But, whatever.

Boo-ya! as Olberman would say.

[James Kei]

My favorite quote from the youtube comments.

When McCain says "It's time for a Change" he's talking about his Depends.

I don't think McCain is being deceitful, I think he's just senile. Just wait for the debates, folks. Obama's going to take this one. And please don't reference the Edwards/Cheney debate. Edwards was a joke, I knew he would lose that debate. Obama would bury Cheney under his intellect.

Eskanto, true. But what's really funny, is the weak propaganda vids about Obama's lies and deceits have about 300 views a month on average. These damning McCain vids are pushing 700,000 in less than 2 days! Ouch!

[Elam]

Intellect my ass. Obama may be smart, but he's vacuous at this point.

And he's going to get buried under his own contradictions(Well, depending on the question asked towards him). But I'm sure he can bat his eyes and mouth platitudes of hope and change and how war is bad which make all the kidz swoon, but then he's got to square that with facts and reality.

And you must have missed the last two election cycles. George Bush is no intellectual giant and he didn't need to be. Debates are not all that relevant, given how soft the questions are.

[sve]

Heh, and Pastor Wright would bury Obama under his intellect. Otherwise why Obama didn't make any noise listening to him and being in disagreement. Now he says it is the whole another person, the Jeremiah Wright, not the one he knew for 20 years.
That's impossible if you ask me. Either he didn't care what his pastor was rambling about, or he didn't attend the preaching, or he knew but was silently resistant about it.
I do believe that his own view is different though, I heard him saying that he doesn't want this election to be about race at all.
If he is a leader, he is not an open one, I think, he acts not directly.

[kev ferrara]

Clearly people who get their political information from youTube prefer Obama.

Obama also apparantly has sewn up the "old people use depends" joke-loving crowd, an important demographic in the upcoming elections.

Also sewn up are the people who use the irish "Mc" in McCain to make new clever epithets. Like McNutter or McDinosaur. Yet to be used are McCan't, McKookoo, McKool-Aid, McAsaurus, McPain, McPublican, McKiller, McCorporate, McCorrupt, McBush, McCheney, McManchurianCandidate, McAwful, McTheologist, McFascist, McAroon, McChickenhawk, McFearmonger, McWarmonger, and McMongerMonger.

Other text-based cleverness includes the realization that Patraeus rhymes with Betray Us and that Bush ends with the same letter that Hitler begins with so the two names can be combined into one very potent synthetic epithet Bushitler, which has the added benefit of including the word "shit" in the middle... a juvenile neologist's trifecta.

I look forward to a military campaign waged under Obama's presidency because of the word "bomb" in the middle of his name. "Obama Middle Eastern Country or Two", or "O-bomb bomb, Obama-ran" for instance, is enormously clever. "Barack in the Saddle Again" will also make them roll in the aisles. And the trifecta: "Change Gone Hussein! Obama the Iranians Barack to the Stone Age!"

You heard it here first.

[Ilaekae]

Kev, you really have to play charades with your linoleum more often... :P

[James Kei]

Intellect my ass. Obama may be smart, but he's vacuous at this point.

And he's going to get buried under his own contradictions(Well, depending on the question asked towards him). But I'm sure he can bat his eyes and mouth platitudes of hope and change and how war is bad which make all the kidz swoon, but then he's got to square that with facts and reality.

And you must have missed the last two election cycles. George Bush is no intellectual giant and he didn't need to be. Debates are not all that relevant, given how soft the questions are.



What do you mean by "facts and reality"? Please elaborate. I don't think you're even paying attention to Obama, you must have written him off as being "the guy on the other team". I've been paying attention to Mcpain's campaign. And I'm willing to bet that Obama is more grounded in facts and reality than McNutter will ever be.

Debates are more relevant now because of said influx of online media. I've been watching more debates this election than ever before because of how easy it is to access them online, and watch them at my leisure. I'm not alone in this either.
Georgey won for various other reasons, but most of those winning rescources just aren't there for McMongerMonger. No Karl Rove this time. And the evangelical vote is weak. Sorry.


Kev, you just may have a sense of humor under that big cranium of yours. :D

[wassermelone]

Kev, everything old is new.

I would find it mildly hilarious if Obama wins and the right wing advocates cry foul that Obama just appealed to the 'common' people. Isn't easy sound bites how every president wins? Wasn't Ole GW the president you could sit down and have a beer with? That the presidency might go to the one who has the most tasty and most easily swallowed message isn't new at all.

Fortunately, I actually like Obama. So hoorah common peoples! Except when they elect someone I don't like. Then they suck.

[kev ferrara]

I forgot McHitler.

[wassermelone]

I forgot McHitler.

You also forgot McSpawn-of-Cthulhu.

Naturally.

[Elwell]

I forgot McHitler.

Least successful fast food product launch ever.

[eskanto]

And ofcourse you forgot.... OBOMINATION!!!!

[James Kei]

http://tmjm3714.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/roflbot15.jpg

[Ilaekae]

JK, I choked on my coffee on that one...thenkyewthenkyewthenkyew...

"We will, We will, Barack you...
Dum Dum Dum..."


:P

[s.ketch]

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