No Games For Girls - Australian article

[Sway West]

Digg find! Interesting read for the guys and the gals.

Girl gamers are on the rise, so why isn't anything being made for them? (http://www.smh.com.au/news/articles/game-girls/2008/05/07/1209839660016.html)

It's a bit of a trip that games geared toward men are built on fantasy scenarios society encourages us to never indulge in(thus the beauty, right?), but games marketed toward women reinforce social behavioral standards like cooking, and nurturing babies. I think a lot more women would be playing GTA right now if Rockstar would have considered making Niko pregnant.

Ps, I do own Nintendogs. But in my defense, the previous owner was a dude. :drinkup:

[petitemistress]

thats a cool article ._. I totally get you on this, Sway! I mean, WTH COOKING MAMA?! why not cooking daddy?! ... ... except that it sounds horribly wrong, but you get my drift... :P

I mean, I own an N64, Wii and Nintendo Ds, as well as a PS2 and hopefully soon a PS3... and I play "boy games" like FPS and the like, *only* when they have substance or are really, really fun. Don't even talk to me about Halo. aside from multiplayer, i dont wanna hear about it :\ Goldeneye 007 on the N64, now thats smthg!

Some of my favorite games, for example, are Psychonauts, Okami, Bioshock (played on a friend's 360. yum.) Ocarina of Time, Mario Kart DS and king of all Final Fantasy 8 <3 . And I'm sure most of them fall in a "non-gender specific" area, except Bioshock, but fuck it. why arent better Girl games made?! or girl-fronted games for that matter? it really blows that when the games industry does address us, it seems to only see us as dumb stereotypes. And badass girl protagonist in a game generally = scantily clad sl*t. thk god theres been progress in that area... but tbh I wdnt complain, if only the boy characters met the same fate... equality n all. ;) girl candy shd command boy candy! :3 Gimme Solid Snake sneaking around in a thong and let his name reflect his outfit for once!

... wow. alrite maybe that last one was a bit too much... xD still i cant wait for MGS4 so i had to make that comment... damn you Ps3 for costing an arm and a leg :(

[Mirana]

Because large corporations tend to look at past statistics to plot future targets thinking that is a safe investment for their money. Women don't show up in a large enough blip on their stock charts to make them go all out for us.

The same could be said of other markets. Don't get me started on action figures and how shows like Avatar that have amazing female leads....do not have action figures while every single male has one or more. /tangent

Here's another question: If they were going to target your gamer money, what KIND of game would they make? You gals say yourself that you prefer playing "boyish" or "unisex" games (ditto that), so how's a corp going to see a problem?

[Blue]

I got my girlfriend addicted to this. She loves it like nothing I have ever seen and is her first video game. She watches me play games like team fortress and gets bored, but Portal gets her blood flowing.

TluRVBhmf8w

Edit: oh yea, she's recently gotten into Bejeweled (http://www.popcap.com/games/mac/bejeweled2) and Chuzzle (http://www.popcap.com/games/chuzzle). But to be honest, i do agree, there isn't enough 'non-violent' games (since i know men enjoy them more-so on average) or games just targeting women in general. Well, all things comes with time.

[kovah]

I play Team Fortress 2 ALOT at the moment, and the second i go on voice chat is like 'Dude are you like 13 or a girl!" An i'm like "girl" and they are like "Woah" then with most i promtly go and kick their virtual asses till they get annoyed and rage quit. Its not so bad now because the servers I frequent have got used to me, its just the occasional moron that thinks because i'm female i shouldn't be playing a boys game. But why the hell not!

I'm not saying all guys are like this, but its the silly ones that spoil it. I'm surprised that more games are not aimed towards girls but at the same time its almost insulting that some of the more generic games and indeed mens games are not marketed towards women as well. I like blowing people up as much as the next guy but because its not a sterotype its not catered for or considered when its being advertised. Its that i think that annoys me the most.

Edit: Blue I loved portal as well, it was perfect. I finnished the first 17 levels in one night i couldn't stop playing. It was just the right length and too short at the same time.

[petitemistress]

first of all, Congrats on your win on the square contest on DA, Mirana! :D

and you're right about wt kind of game they shd make... id say for starters female fronted games with a believable female lead? i mean, how much ass does Samus Aran (Metroid) kick? or really challenging platformers/adventure games but with that girly/cutesy feel we girls love? I dunno... guess I'll have to think this one out...

about this topic tho, one of my fav webcomics made a hilarious strip about the subject: http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=254
xD

Edit: Blue,your gf is awsm, PORTAL FTW!

Kovah: Seconded. They shd market it towards girls too!

[Junck]

There's also the social stigma of traditional roles to consider. Most people (men) don't want to face the fact that women no longer fit into the preformed mould men have made for them and probably can't even conceive a female-geared game that doesn't involve frivolous themes of shopping/cooking/caretaking or isn't gussied up with pink, sequins, and skirts.

It's definitely a biased industry, though unwise to truly assign a game to a gender base when...really what psychology is there in saying that "violent games" are primarily a target for men ONLY? I know plenty of girls into blood, guts and gore!

Now when it comes to curvaceous women tromping about in not but a string bikini ...... that's another story I guess.

[fanficbug]

but games marketed toward women reinforce social behavioral standards like cooking, and nurturing babies. I think a lot more women would be playing GTA right now if Rockstar would have considered making Niko pregnant.

Yeah, seriously. And WTH is up with Ubisoft's "Imagine"? First they give us a strong, likeable heroine like Jade and then say "oh, but here's a game that little GIRLS can enjoy" and throw those . . . things at us? I don't know about you, but when I was little I didn't fantasize about being an animal doctor, taking care of babies, cooking, doing fashion design, or being a figure skater (though I did, admittedly, enjoy watching figure skating). I wanted to be the president and a research scientist all at once. I also wanted to be what I now recognize as a white hat hacker for a major corporation. Then I wanted to be a game designer. Good luck seeing any of those marketed towards young girls!

But hell, let's be realistic. You don't even need all that. How about games like the Fatal Frame series? There's one in which the girls aren't cheesecake, they aren't damsels in distress, and they aren't sidekicks either. They're just (relatively) normal girls. I like the characters in FF for that reason. Odin's Sphere is another great one. I LOVE the costumes in that game, and though I haven't gotten very far in it yet, I LOVE the way the girls in the game are portrayed.

Compare this with, say, the first few minutes of the original God of War. Guess who the first females who aren't gods are? Helpless prisoners. Guess who the next are? Victims from Kratos's memory. Guess who the next are? Scantily clad slaves (all sexed up to boot!). Am I the only woman here that was disturbed by that, and immediately shut the game off?

P.S.: I love Samas Aran. :)

EDIT: Mmmmm, Portal. :D

[Sway West]

They shouldn't. "Go all out" for us, I mean. Equality is rarely achieved through empathy- it's just as much the responsibility of women, as it is men. It's innocent enough, but we help perpetuate cycles. Anyway, there's no business sense in marketing to one girl with a flat chest, at the risk of losing all the boys who appreciate the aesthetic of a buxom body.

I really think it's as simple as creating identifiable female roles, Mirana. Edit Conceptually, that simple. From a marketing standpoint, not that simple.

Kojima's fine, he's all about equality- his male characters are objectified just as much, if not moreso, than the women in that series. :P

[Junck]

I really think it's as simple as creating identifiable female roles...

As long as they can cut out the usual cliche models of "tough, tomboy" (which is usually a Princess for some reason) to accommodate all of the less-than-prim female types out there. Most of the time, female roles that TRY too hard to identify end up feeling rather pretentious and obnoxious...

[Costau D]

Based on the vague concept of a game for a girl wherin we would have to resort to stereotypes. What exactly is a girl game? Are the games made for guys, or is it the stereotype that games are only for boys? I'm tired of playing a muscle bound pretty boy with guns. Now I have to go out and get into the gym. :(

[himlayan]

Perhaps games for women aren't prevalent in non-Asian countries (?), but there's a ton coming from Japan. Might have something to do with their market? The female-friendly merchandise from that country is fantastic. One game I've particularly enjoyed recently has been Phoenix Wright - great characters and good stories (IMHO anyway), with strong female characters to boot. Who cares what the protagonist's sex is - if it's engaging, then it's engaging. My gaming background since I was little has mostly included adventure games (Beneath a Steel Sky, Kyrandia, those old LucasArts and Sierra games, etc.), but most of my gaming female friends go for RPGs with good storylines...barring that, RPGs with hot, scantily-dressed men XD.

Admittedly, though, if I see a scantily-dressed ornamental woman alongside some testosterone-hyped male lead on a game's cover, I scoot away. I don't touch those games unless one of my friends recommends it. Just as some guys probably scoot away from some of the games I prefer. But I definitely don't think we're being ignored in the gaming market.

[Zilant]

Let's be honest here,
Even the male characters are walking cliche's. Video game writing, with a few exceptional diamonds in the rough, is hardly Shakespearian.

It's just that the males aren't frickin' kidnap bait.

[Duq]

I really think it's as simple as creating identifiable female roles, Mirana.

Its not, you would have to go up against thousands of years of socially developed archetypes.

edit: And Shakespear is a huge cliche when it comes to characters.

[squidmonk3j]

"More than 40% of game players in Australia are female, yet most games on the store shelves are of little interest to them."

and

"The average gamer in Australia is now 28 years old, up from 24 just two years ago. And despite being largely ignored by the game industry, 41% are female."

nobody cares about them and no games actually appeal to them....BUT THEY STILL SHOOT UP LIKE JUNKIES!

maybe it's a good thing, eh?

[fanficbug]

As long as they can cut out the usual cliche models of "tough, tomboy" (which is usually a Princess for some reason) to accommodate all of the less-than-prim female types out there. Most of the time, female roles that TRY too hard to identify end up feeling rather pretentious and obnoxious...

Yeah. For example, I'd like to see an absolutely butt-ugly female lead who's still likeable and someone you could root for.

But then again I'd like to see more "ugly" male leads because the chiseled abs, great hairstyle, perfect voice, sexy demeanor guys start to get old after a while. C'mon, give me a wrinkly old adventurer who knows a thing or two about the world and can still kick some ass. I loved the old hobo in Bully (though I almost didn't get that far because the girls in the game are freaking annoying). He was a drunk, he was ugly as sin, he smelled, and he had attitude. I wanted him to have a bigger role. Sadly, it was not to be.

The whole "hi, I'm hot AND young, AND I know a thing or two about the world" really requires too much explanation--as in, it requires you to go into his (inevitably tragic) backstory and find out why this guy is so street-smart without having a completely scarred up face. Gag.

So really, I'd like to see more thought put into identifiable roles in general. But especially for women. So what if you turn off a huge demographic of guys who pretty much want all female leads to be eye candy? You'll snag just as many men and women who are tired of seeing the same old, same old pretty woman who kicks ass.

Anyway, there's no business sense in marketing to one girl with a flat chest, at the risk of losing all the boys who appreciate the aesthetic of a buxom body.

It's not that simple. Not all men require beautiful female leads--in fact, I would say the majority are more sophisticated than that, and require only an interesting personalities to keep them interested. And it's not just "one girl with a flat chest" would like to see a more believeable standard put forth. My husband and his friends are always poking fun at the fact that there are no ugly female leads. But hey, maybe I'm too optimistic, and guys do indeed need eye candy to keep themselves happy when playing a game. But if that were true, then why are male leads okay with mainstream heterosexual culture? Unless of course we want to get into the argument that guys like seeing nice-looking guys too, which is a whole 'nother ballgame, and gets some people spouting ugly things about homosexuals.

Either way, it's more complicated than that.

[fanficbug]

maybe it's a good thing, eh?

Or maybe we've just been patient thus far and are trying to give the industry time to adapt, but are rapidly getting sicker and sicker of seeing the same stereotypes and devices and are thus making more noise.

No, that couldn't be it! We must secretly like being objectified in games! Crisis over, now we can stop thinking of how to make women feel more welcome in the gaming world.



(Regardless of what you meant, this is the message that I got from your post. Doesn't sound very good, does it?)

[petitemistress]

Yeah. For example, I'd like to see an absolutely butt-ugly female lead who's still likeable and someone you could root for.


Amen!

Sometimes in my head, the lead guys from that crappy 360 game, Gears of War, are big bulky soldier wimmins with scars and battle experience. :D they kick ass, and they are awesome. Altho I also think if Kratos were a woman, id recon hed be that chick from Heavenly Sword, only with his awsm tattoos and weapons. Other then that I like GoW and I find Kratos hot...damn. I fail at life :sadcheerleader:

god what was that HS chick''s name again?! ... :\

[daestwen]

All I'm going to say is this:

Amen.

I've fought this battle too many times over the years to continue it here, but. :P

[fanficbug]

Amen!

Sometimes in my head, the lead guys from that crappy 360 game, Gears of War, are big bulky soldier wimmins with scars and battle experience. :D they kick ass, and they are awesome. Altho I also think if Kratos were a woman, id recon hed be that chick from Heavenly Sword, only with his awsm tattoos and weapons. Other then that I like GoW and I find Kratos hot...damn. I fail at life :sadcheerleader:

god what was that HS chick''s name again?! ... :\

Her name was Nariko.

But here's the problem, like you said: they're not really ugly. Kratos still has the rock hard abs, the nice tattoos, the deep voice, and the girls falling all over him left and right ("Kratos, come back to bed!"). While I can see how having muscles would be necessary for his line of work, he's not exactly material for Mr. Ugly.

Attached for comparison: guy that looks like the bum from Bully (I can't find a decent picture :(), and Kratos.

Which is uglier?

[squidmonk3j]

Or maybe we've just been patient thus far and are trying to give the industry time to adapt, but are rapidly getting sicker and sicker of seeing the same stereotypes and devices and are thus making more noise.

No, that couldn't be it! We must secretly like being objectified in games! Crisis over, now we can stop thinking of how to make women feel more welcome in the gaming world.



(Regardless of what you meant, this is the message that I got from your post. Doesn't sound very good, does it?)

well, gee...i guess The Game Industry just isn't in it for the money then, eh?

apply occam's razor plz

OR

plz merge with Esoteric Agenda thread.

[Sway West]

Everyone's starting to get bitter. You all need to sit down and play Babyz.

I thought the article's mentioning of the games that ARE geared toward females was more interesting than the ongoing issue of inequality in the media industry.

[fanficbug]

well, gee...i guess The Game Industry just isn't in it for the money then, eh?

Even when there's potentially more money to be made because there are more women in the world, and more to the point, more women in this country than there are men? (http://www.censusbureau.biz/prod/2003pubs/p20-544.pdf)

apply occam's razor plz

"The term razor refers to the act of shaving away unnecessary assumptions to get to the simplest explanation."

I'd say that assuming that all or even most women aren't offended by their portrayal in video games is not the best move. You're free to disagree, but keep in mind that you're one person, and probably a man (by your referral to women as "they"), and thus don't know intimately about what every woman would think, and that you most likely haven't experienced the kind of sexism that some/most women face every day.



To everybody who's wondering (or ever has wondered) "How can I avoid being sexist?" or "Why is she so sensitive/upset about sexism?" or (to a lesser extent) "How can I understand what it's like to be discriminated against?" I really highly suggest this post. (http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/214607.html) It's the best I've ever read on the subject.

In the interest in keeping this thread open and friendly, that's all I'm gonna say. But do please read that post. It's pure gold.

[~Faust~]

Oh yeah, just look at yourselves drawing all those bodybuilders in your scetchbooks.

[petitemistress]

Oh yeah, just look at yourselves drawing all those bodybuilders in your scetchbooks.

there are no body builders in mine, wt say you? actually most of my male characters are usually lanky/geeky and not very buff...

moreover, those "body builder" types you find in our sbs are the form of exercise you find in anatomy and figure drawing books and a great way of learning about the underlying structure of the body so you can draw normal to fat ppl, so i really fail to see your point?

anyways! Sway is right, we shd b more positive, more good girl oriented games are being made, and thats swell :) heres to hoping it only gets better, becz like it or not, the girl gamers numbers are growing everyday :D (ive enrolled 3 little cousins already xD )

[CCThrom]

Or maybe we've just been patient thus far and are trying to give the industry time to adapt, but are rapidly getting sicker and sicker of seeing the same stereotypes and devices and are thus making more noise.

I figure this has gotta be true. In just one guy's opinion anyway, I think you will see the industry adapt and mature. Remember we're talking about what is still a VERY young industry. As the industry ages, everyone gets sicker of the stereotypes (well I sure do anyway)... and as the industry expands, the powers-that-be will certainly come to recognize the wisdom in marketing to a larger fan-base. That's pure economics.

This is not to say that obnoxious stereotypes will disappear... I mean, look at the movie industry for comparison. But what will happen, I'm sure is already happening... is that the playing field will continue to expand, providing more and more room for academy-award winning stuff, and different tastes.

[Mirana]

What exactly is a girl game? Are the games made for guys, or is it the stereotype that games are only for boys? I'm tired of playing a muscle bound pretty boy with guns.

I'm thinking the fix is not as much about "what makes a game boy/girl" stereotype as it is about tapping the experiences of OTHER types of people (gender, race, age, class, nationality) to create games based on a broader spectrum of players and buyers. It just so happens that gender gets brought up a lot because the general public is somehow surprised by female gamers. And then the marketing department think we need to put only little girls in games about Horsez and Babyz and couple that with Pink DSs b/c only gals can like those things.

most of my gaming female friends go for RPGs with good storylines...barring that, RPGs with hot, scantily-dressed men XD.

I read a TIME article yrs ago that quoted a study suggesting that most men tend to gravitate toward linear: I-can-take-it-apart, there-are-awesome-vechicles/guns in it type movies/games/books/comics. Whereas women prefer emotional attachment: character development and detailed story.

Even though I DO see these tendancies in myself and others, we all still enjoy a good story or an awesome ship design. It's just that sometimes one or the other can tip the scale of "awesome!" for someone.

I think everyone should enjoy more hot, scantily-clad men in their games. Unfortunately most "attractive" male architypes are a straight dude's idea of "Hot" (see Krato) and not necessarily my own. I guess you could argue the reverse in JPN imports like FF, but I sorta like my guys a little more adult and a little less metro. :D

It's just that the males aren't frickin' kidnap bait.

They aren't? Why not? Somebody needs to watch some Kim Possible. :D

Its not, you would have to go up against thousands of years of socially developed archetypes.

I've always wanted to mention to you Duq that I love your avatar. It's a little more appropriate to mention it now because my (male) fiancee loves both "duckies" and turtles and about PEED himself when he saw the two combined. He cannot watch an episode with those things without wanting one. ;D

And thus by being yourself, you fight stereotypes. If only games didn't have to pander to that all the time.

nobody cares about them and no games actually appeal to them....BUT THEY STILL SHOOT UP LIKE JUNKIES!

I get what you were trying to say. It still comes off like...well. Fanficbug's link SAYS IT ALL. Please read it (http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/214607.html) and understand:

"...because men are the group with the privilege, every conversation, if not stated otherwise, is assumed to be about men's worldviews and men's issues. And for a woman (who's used to running smack into that default assumption a hundred times a day), finding that she's in the middle of a very good conversation about something that matters to her in a place where her worldview is being given due weight and consideration can be so tremendously uplifting that to have someone come in and (in essence) say "Whups, just kidding, let's restore that status quo, it's still all about me" is either a). very frightening, or b). very enraging."

Yeah. For example, I'd like to see an absolutely butt-ugly female lead who's still likeable and someone you could root for.

I think the idea is less that games don't represent the "ugly" or "old" people in main characters because they don't think outside the box, but more because games are about FANTASY. So then the default understanding is us "normal" people are ugly and we want to play a game where we can pretend we're the "pretty" people for once.

Other than the occational eye-candy that us gals get so little of, I wouldn't mind playing an "ugly" character so long as the characterization of her/him was awesome. :) Afterall, a cool personality can make an "ugly" character very attractive...and vice versa.

Thanks for the link. It was a fab read.

[davi]

The more game designers force "girl" upon the games, the more I've seen them alienate both crowds.

While making a "Barbie horse adventure" game will get you 80% girl to guy ratio, it will also have a very small return.

Game studies have been finding that women enjoy social settings more than stagnant single player game play. I find this very true now that the xbox 360 is so easy for gamers to get online with. one out of every 50 people i play with online is a female. While that seems like a huge disconnect, im playing call of duty 4 and grand theft auto 4.... These games are NOT made in ANY WAY to be directed with a specific goal to get more female gamers into the game. Yet the community and social aspects of the game has allowed girls to get invested.

If you look at games like World of Warcraft, the population of females is STAGGERING compared to where it would have been just 5 years ago. The reason for wow's success with females is 3 part. It's very popular & word of mouth alone will get them to at least check it out, it easily accessible on low systems, so it's a girl's first real PC game experience it wont crush her with system specs, and the fact girl gamers have been slowly introduced to the market from previous games and they don't just fade away.

The success of WOW...Nintendo DS ...and other games with females it's just going to continue their interest to the next game, and that game will bring in even more, thus causing the ratio to steady even more.

If a game wants to focus on making a game for the female market. They need to make an extremely successful game for the male market that allows females to interact with the already successful community.

Second Life got extremely popular when males entered the game looking for virtual freedom and virtual sex. Females entered the game with interest in the social community and found the best thing to do was exploit the male's need for virtual sex to make money. Males left the game because community only games aren't exciting to males. Females got really confused and kept building the world... then shortly left as the community diminished.

Large population + community = girl fun!

FACT!

[Sway West]

Second Life got extremely popular when males entered the game looking for virtual freedom and virtual sex. Females entered the game with interest in the social community and found the best thing to do was exploit the male's need for virtual sex to make money. Males left the game because community only games aren't exciting to males. Females got really confused and kept building the world... then shortly left as the community diminished.

Just like real life!

I can't relate to that statistic, though. Games like the Sims, Guildwars, and Animal Crossing- I lose interest in extremely quickly. The games are well made, and extremely entertaining, but I have a hard time investing myself- and the idea of community rarely compels me to have another go.

[Mirana]

Strange...I personally loathe games that force online play on you in order to enjoy them. I would much rather play a self-contained, personal game. Heh, guess that's why I played WoW 1 and 2 and then got out of gaming once Diablo and StarCraft had their online heyday.

Self-contained games may be of interest to new players since there is less elitest "OMG I can't play it 'cause everyone will laugh at me" mentality. It's way hard to get my gal pals to play games when the boys are there, even though they watch and laugh and enjoy. Silly girls. It's really ME that would beat their asses. :D

[waronmars]

I don't know, I adore rpgs and dnd type stuff, I really don't think I'd be into 'girly' games...

I think it's a bit sexist in itself to assume girls NEED a different kind of game. Then maybe I'm just a total tomboy, hehe. My man got mass effect this past weekend, sooo good! And baldurs gate, final fantasy... I think we should be worried about people making shit games than making 'guy' games. Though I do agree less females with their tits hanging out doing crazy fucked up martial arts in high heels while shooting 5 machine guns could be a good thing... But we have to look at both sides of the coin, alot of games have huge beefy men in them too, its not like chicks are the only ones that get the treatment.

Mirana do you mean Warcraft 1 and 2? WoW and warcraft are different games :p


also COCKDOCKING DAVI! COCKDOCKING!

[Mirana]

'Scuse my addition of "World of." They are obviously different games. I was referencing the evolution thereof.

Also another interesting point: Why does our love of "boy categorized" games make us tomBOYS? Should it not be just that these are good, well-rounded games and thus enjoyed by a wider margin of people?

[davi]

well... i consider a lot of the girls i play with tomboys because when i kill them with a cheap weapon they go "f**k you, you lonely fat n*****r-f*a***t! Go to your boyfriend and suck his fat c*** you d*** hungry n*****r. virgin-f**king f**"

I bet they are sweet ladies though..

[Mirana]

Are you sure you aren't just playing with sailors? :D Swearing is for REAL WOMEN anyway.

[daestwen]

Hahaha, davi, that's awesome.

I personally prefer story-based games like Zelda or Okami... Online games just ask for assholery and I hate that. I'd rather just putz around by myself. :P

that being said:

omg, okami = love.

[Sorknes]

fanificbug, you just made my day with that link.

"......getting the Dogpile of You Have Fucking Failed......"


Goodness. *saves* That should be linked to the "girls always breaks hearts guy"....

[fanficbug]

I think it's a bit sexist in itself to assume girls NEED a different kind of game.

*nodnod* Which is why you'll see me default to the "interesting characters" argument. My line of thought (which I should have made clearer earlier, sorry) is that we need more games that think of women, really. I mean, I can't help but default back to God of War. I can't help but think "if one of the design developers had thought, 'hey wow, practically all of the women in the early game are offensive, one-dimensional stereotypes' and done something about it, what would have happened? Would they have gotten a better reaction to the game, thus boosting an already popular game's worth?" Because I wasn't the only one who was turned off by that element of the game. My husband stopped playing the game around the same point I did and we've both never come back. We were both offended.

Games marketed towards women would ideally have lots of thought going into them about trying not to offend and alienate by default. Completely aside from which, I'd love to see a game made for girls, with girls in mind primarily, that is good without being necessarily "girly" or off-putting to guys. Guys have been getting the preferential treatment for years. :P It'd be nice to see what would happen if a game like Gears of War said, "Okay, we're really pushing this to our female gamers, so what can we do to help with that?" and then actually asked women what they thought. Run a survey in a couple of major gaming magazines and make it clear that focus groups will prefer women's points of view because it's being pushed towards women, instead of defaulting to "well, they're women, so I guess it's cooking, ponies, and rainbows." I don't know about you gals, but the thought of that excites me. The thought of anybody saying, "Hey women, we care about what you think!" makes me happy. :)

I guess what it comes down to is "you must wait!" Focus groups do tend to be shite and damn unhelpful either way. But I hope I'm making sense of what I'm saying. If I'm not, let me know.





P.S.: Yeah, the reason I quit WoW was because random guys kept coming up to me and asking "Are you a girl? Really? Then will you be my girlfriend?" or "LOL UR HOT, R U A GIRL?" or "wow I can tell by how u talk ur a girl, and ur gaming . . . will u marry me?"

There were some other reasons, such as how aggravating it is to try to socialize and play at the same time, but the fact that the above kept. fucking. happening. Really was the straw (or stone) that broke the camel's back. Am I the only one who's gotten that treatment?

And if any guys are here who do that, let me just say I'm not here for the express purpose of dating or cybering, guys. Seriously, you have no fucking IDEA how annoying that shit is.

. . . But I doubt any of the guys here are that puerile, or at least, I hope they're not.

fanificbug, you just made my day with that link.

"......getting the Dogpile of You Have Fucking Failed......"


Goodness. *saves* That should be linked to the "girls always breaks hearts guy"....

I'm glad you're all liking it. I loves it to death, and I'm glad to share the love. :)

[Mirana]

Am I the only one who's gotten that treatment?

When I was young and foolish I gave a friend of mine a photo of me to put on her website showing the people who were interested in the site topic. I promptly got a stalker who was really bad. That coupled with the daily harassment and the working conventions where the fan-boys are guilty of every single thing in that essay you posted? Yah...I've never put another photo of me up again. Even then I'd get people stalking me from cons, or doing the above mentioned simply because I like "boy" things and have a vagina. I have to deal with that crap IRL I'd rather not drag it over into cyberland. One of the reasons I don't advertise I'm a femme too often, either.

*sigh* Tangent over and out.

[Sorknes]

P.S.: Yeah, the reason I quit WoW was because random guys kept coming up to me and asking "Are you a girl? Really? Then will you be my girlfriend?" or "LOL UR HOT, R U A GIRL?" or "wow I can tell by how u talk ur a girl, and ur gaming . . . will u marry me?"

There were some other reasons, such as how aggravating it is to try to socialize and play at the same time, but the fact that the above kept. fucking. happening. Really was the straw (or stone) that broke the camel's back. Am I the only one who's gotten that treatment?

And if any guys are here who do that, let me just say I'm not here for the express purpose of dating or cybering, guys. Seriously, you have no fucking IDEA how annoying that shit is.



Oh yeah. Been there. Thankfully my username for some reason gets me labeled as a guy most of the time. At times I can go pouty about that in the CA IRC, but really, it's kind of a relief when gaming. Whenever someone not knowing I'm a girl finds out, there's always a storm coming. And when you're trying to do some serious gaming and get all kinds of just pure idiotic questions and random private messages, it's so annoying I tend to log off for a while.

I think I can truly say that the people that's become true gamer friends over the years is people that's refrained from that kind reaction. Including my now husband. I thought he was a girl, and he thought I was a guy when we first talked. Gotta love unisex usernames.

Thankfully I'm also lucky enough to be a part of some somewhat tight knit but small gamer communities where everybody knows and it's not a big deal. But that's probably because the news interest die off after a couple of years... And there there's several girls. They just don't go public about it when it's larger communites. Like us.

[deadred]

The more game designers force "girl" upon the games, the more I've seen them alienate both crowds.

I think it's a bit sexist in itself to assume girls NEED a different kind of game.

^^ exactly. I find articles like that abit sexist. Just because i have a collection of plushies doesn't mean i don't enjoy gore-fest games with big guns, big swords and big boobies.. >.>

I personally thought games like Prince of Persia appeal very much to my puppy-cuddling side. Interesting story, great settings, and hot leading guy. I also think a game that balances out really well when it comes to appeal is Portal.

[daestwen]

P.S.: Yeah, the reason I quit WoW was because random guys kept coming up to me and asking "Are you a girl? Really? Then will you be my girlfriend?" or "LOL UR HOT, R U A GIRL?" or "wow I can tell by how u talk ur a girl, and ur gaming . . . will u marry me?"

There were some other reasons, such as how aggravating it is to try to socialize and play at the same time, but the fact that the above kept. fucking. happening. Really was the straw (or stone) that broke the camel's back. Am I the only one who's gotten that treatment?

And if any guys are here who do that, let me just say I'm not here for the express purpose of dating or cybering, guys. Seriously, you have no fucking IDEA how annoying that shit is.


Um, that is actually the EXACT reason I stopped playing Star Wars Galaxies.

So what if i want to play a hot twilekk chick? that doesn't make me a piece of meat. :/

it actually made me anxious to log in because the guys in my guild would see me come on and immediately start harassing me...

[luverly_marie]

I grew up playing video games, so I didn't see much of a gender distinction. I played because it was fun to play and be competitive. Some games could use a lot less sexism, but that's on occasion.

Overall, it's an acquired taste really, you like it or you don't. Maybe games aren't geared towards us girls, but they're not preventing us from looking for or buying them. '

A note about the cyber girlfriend guys on MMO's: Jesus, I believe I have been asked out in every online game I've played. It's seriously a depressing sight.

[Zilant]

Never had an honest to god stalker, but I do think Ventrillo/Teamspeak was the worst thing to happen to MMOs.

Really, what jerks my chain isn't so much when the crowd is being excessively crude or horny, but rather when they're being excessively nice. Not like "You couldn't possibly have had that much lag" kind of nice, but like "Why are you defending me - we're enemies" kind of nice.

Back in the day, I'd donned a voice scrambler for a while.
For the most part struck dizzy that I was no longer simply filtering out the mindless flirtations but had started to time speaking as a distraction tactic. While secretly submitting to my teenage logic that thought using Spy Toys was kind of cool. Only realizing very belatedly that it kinda' came across as though I were handicapped in some way.

I'd feel more bad about preying on people sympathies like that, except I'd gotten twice as much niceness with the scrambler off.

[Blue]

well... i consider a lot of the girls i play with tomboys because when i kill them with a cheap weapon they go "f**k you, you lonely fat n*****r-f*a***t! Go to your boyfriend and suck his fat c*** you d*** hungry n*****r. virgin-f**king f**"

I bet they are sweet ladies though..

The inner troll knows no sex. :)

[Ilaekae]

"well... i consider a lot of the girls i play with tomboys because when i kill them with a cheap weapon they go "f**k you, you lonely fat n*****r-f*a***t! Go to your boyfriend and suck his fat c*** you d*** hungry n*****r. virgin-f**king f**"

I bet they are sweet ladies though.."




Davi, just run...as fast as you can.

You've been online with every female I ever dated... :P

[waronmars]

yeah, ilakae's girlfriends all let fly when he kills them with a cheap weapon...

[fionkell]

But don't you see, women are becoming too independent and capable of liking things apart from flowers! We must return to our flower-picking subservient traditions immediately, and these female-oriented games can speed us back to the golden path. Hooray!


Seriously I love me run-punch-shoot-destroy-swing from precarious objects games as much as the next girl. Where's the frakkin fun in a videogame where I have to accessorise my fashionable sticklady and it turns out there's no "SMG holster" or custom armour plating option? :blah: But really, why analyse so much when it just seems to be ramming the wedge in the "gender divide" further? Eh.

[Jtho]

It's sort of an interesting self-sustaining dilemma. If the video-game development industry is largely dominated by males, and people generally are most enthusiastic to make the kinds of games they themselves would want to play, then it is really hardly any wonder why the most popular videogames today are high-octane, testosterone fueled rambo-fests.

The fact that these games happen to also pander squarely into the 18-32 year old male target audience that makes up the lion's share of video game player demographics is a handy convenience that allows the people with money to continue enabling this cycle, while the people who most rabidly consume these games generally represent the next generation of developers.

Thankfully, despite this more and more women continue to "infiltrate", for lack of a better word, this system and that trend seems to be continuing full speed ahead. I really do not think the solution to the male-female demographic gap is to suddenly have game developers start conducting focus test groups to see what girls and young women are interested in. This is no doubt exactly the kind of mentality that led to the slew of Cooking, Pet-care, Ponies and Babyz shovelware casual games that the Wii and DS are infested with, in an attempt to capitalize on Nintendo's more casual accessible image.

Instead, I think we're just going to continue seeing the gradual paradigm shift that has been happening all along. As more women take up creative positions in development studios, there will be an ever-increasing impetus and pressure get believable, three dimensional characters that both sexes can relate to.

Addendum: I can totally understand how people are frequently surprised to learn when someone they're playing with online is a female, especially outside of an MMORPG context--but I cannot *at all* wrap my head around this purported "hurf durf, wut u doin playing gamez, get back in da kitchen!" attitude that so many female gamers complain about. It's so repulsive that frankly I am half tempted to convince myself people like that don't really exist, for the sake of my own mental health.

[kovah]

Games I have really enjoyed so far: Pokemon - admittedly storyline wasnt the best but it was intriguing enough to want to make me find out what happened, i was looking after 'monsters' and making them fight. Pokemon was good and still is.

*Portal: I can't give this enough praise

*Zelda- Twilight princess: My first zelda game and I really really enjoyed it. There was enough freedom to do things other than follow the linear plot excessivly - finding the bugs and whatnot and characters you could get to know. Midna is awesome.

*Team Fortress 2: Average shootemup but at the same time you need to work with your team to win, its not often you can do so on your own.

Black and White 2: Biiig monsters, fighting and looking after your peoples.

Zoo Tycoon 2: I likes aminals XD

[John]

I think we should be worried about people making shit games than making 'guy' games.

:mod:

[fanficbug]

It's sort of an interesting self-sustaining dilemma. If the video-game development industry is largely dominated by males, and people generally are most enthusiastic to make the kinds of games they themselves would want to play, then it is really hardly any wonder why the most popular videogames today are high-octane, testosterone fueled rambo-fests.

Yeah, I should have made this clear at the outset, I'm more interested in games that merely think of females and really just try not to offend. I guess I see games that don't follow this minimum standard as not being targeted at girls because holy shit, what woman wants to play a game where all the women are cookie-cutter cardboard people? It doesn't even have to be all that. The moment a woman gets kidnapped in a game is always a kind of "groan" moment for me. Depending on how bad it is and how three-dimensional the rest of the game seems, I might just drop a game that does that. I usually do.

So when I read "most games on the market aren't targeted at women" I see "most games on the market don't think of women as a possible audience, and thus don't put any thought into avoiding stereotypes and bad characters."

Ubisoft is better than average at this (Beyond Good and Evil, Prince of Persia, etc.) although they kind of dropped the ball by feeding into stereotypes this time around. But the fact that they are trying is cheering. :)

Addendum: I can totally understand how people are frequently surprised to learn when someone they're playing with online is a female, especially outside of an MMORPG context--but I cannot *at all* wrap my head around this purported "hurf durf, wut u doin playing gamez, get back in da kitchen!" attitude that so many female gamers complain about. It's so repulsive that frankly I am half tempted to convince myself people like that don't really exist, for the sake of my own mental health.

I've got screenshots. :P

Here, have a situation that started out more funny. :P This guy ended up following me around in game for a while and whispering guild members to find out more about me. It all culminated in him trying to join my guild--luckily I'm friends IRL with the guild master (well, he was guild master at the time anyway) and he basically said, "Don't worry, we've got enough evidence to report him." And so I did. No more harassment. (I guess the guy just really wanted to be my slave. O_o)

It's not so much a "get back in the kitchen" mindset as it is a "oh look, it's a girl, she's there to be a guy's girlfriend" mentality. Or a "if I wear her down she'll love to be my girlfriend in the end." I don't want a boyfriend; I'm married! They don't think of that as a possibility. They don't think "well, she could have reasons for not wanting a boyfriend; it's better to just try to be her friend." They don't think of any of that. It's like they see a girl and their brain turns off. What gets me most about this is how it's like any girl is interchangeable, and I'm just the "lucky" one who got picked.

I ought to start telling people I'm actually a guy, but that gets annoying after a while, and dies the moment you go on teamspeak with people. =/

Anyway, these screenshots didn't seem like that mindset at first, but after he started following me around and such I really started to wonder. Still, the initial conversation is pretty funny, if short. :)

[EFrost]

I just find the assumption that girls and guys have to play different games hugely ignorant. There're different genres for a reason, why invent another for the sake of being stereotypical...

[Sorknes]

What I find somewhat the problem, is the marketing.

Just take a game like The Witcher as an example, because I never saw any marketing about it. I heard about it "through the grapewine", so to say. This is a game where you can bed about any female around. And you kill monsters. I'm sure the marketing would have been about that. But you know what? I loved it. It wasn't a guy that was the random "hero from nowhere" at a young age, but still streetsmart as hell, he was older. There's a huge background story because of the books that most gamers wouldn't know about, which they managed to put in by a lil bit of amnesia. There's several kinds of women playing a huge part of the story (some of them annoying, yes, but they also actually put in annoying men here, and therefore it's easier to swallow), and, the sleeping with them is actually up to you playing the game. You can sleep with none, with one, a few, or all. The storyline is something that capture you as you game, and you get a proper story through the game. It's not all "bed women" and "kill x monsters". But that might be what they'd focused on.

Just to take another just little thing, in an old game like Might & Magic 7, you would have four adventurers in a party. Which you chose yourself when starting. An equal gender number, with voice options and avatars. It might sound silly, but the fact that you can chose between female voices that is everything from "ew, I broke a naaaaaiiiil" to "take that!" in a dark kick ass voice with just "normal" voices in between makes the game a lot better. You don't have to live through silly girls, too sassy girls, or whatever, you can make sure youself have a party that you're pleased with. For both genders. Just to do a small thing like that, and it's suddenly more "girlfriendly" if you want that label. But they sure wouldn't market it as such.

I don't want games marketed as "a game for girls". That's sexist. And will probably screw up some of the sale, not to mention it might screw up the whole game. Misunderstand me right. I want marketing that just remembers that maybe they'll capture a bigger audience by putting in a line or two about options, storyline or tactics instead of focusing ONLY on killer moves, kickass graphics and awsome monsters. I've played Duke Nukem and Doom. I've played Starcraft and Civilisation. I've played Gabriel Knight and Myst. I've played Morrowind and Might & Magic series. I'm somewhat an allround gamer, and I don't believe in the label "girl game". I do believe there'd be a lower bar for me to actually buy games these days if the marketing just remembered to put in a lil thing or two that might pick my interest though. When I wander in the game isles these days, it's to buy games I've heard about from other gamers. I've stopped looking at the marketing and whatever's said on the cover. I'm sure I'd have even more titles in my shelves if they managed to pick my interest as I was just idling in the store wasting time. But usually, they don't.

[Queen Nehalania]

Holy shit, lol. xD

Are they kidding... I've played games my entire life an I'm a girl. Besides, the games that I own (besides Mario and Sonic games) are either: Final Fantasy: Tactics Advance, Online XI, Fire Emblem, Lost Odyssey, 007, Bejeweled, Drakengard (1st one), Draken: Ancient Gates, DBZ games (when I was really into the show), I used to own some Mortal Kombat games a long time ago, Ar Tonelica, Magna Carta(haven't played this one yet, but I bought it), racing games especially Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit 2, Carbon, and this other one I forgot the name of. Burnout, and many others.

Not counting what I've rented (I rent waaaaay more than I buy games) I've played many games that are gory, violent, etc.

I don't think that there should be a certain genre of games just for girls on the market because thats bullshit. Not every girl cares about cooking and babies. I would never play those type of games because they're no fun... I can cook food in friggin real life, and I don't like little children. Games are games.
Either you like them and play them or you don't. There is no "game for guys and game for girls" you just fucking play the game, regardless of your sex. If it interest you then that is what matters.:frustrated:

[squidmonk3j]

Even when there's potentially more money to be made because there are more women in the world, and more to the point, more women in this country than there are men? (http://www.censusbureau.biz/prod/2003pubs/p20-544.pdf)



"The term razor refers to the act of shaving away unnecessary assumptions to get to the simplest explanation."

I'd say that assuming that all or even most women aren't offended by their portrayal in video games is not the best move. You're free to disagree, but keep in mind that you're one person, and probably a man (by your referral to women as "they"), and thus don't know intimately about what every woman would think, and that you most likely haven't experienced the kind of sexism that some/most women face every day.



To everybody who's wondering (or ever has wondered) "How can I avoid being sexist?" or "Why is she so sensitive/upset about sexism?" or (to a lesser extent) "How can I understand what it's like to be discriminated against?" I really highly suggest this post. (http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/214607.html) It's the best I've ever read on the subject.

In the interest in keeping this thread open and friendly, that's all I'm gonna say. But do please read that post. It's pure gold.

emphasis mine. and sufficient reason for me to stay the hell away from any reading material you recommend and also not bother with any further interaction.

i'll only say this:

the original article basically states that female gamers (referred to) are mindless morons.

and your

Or maybe we've just been patient thus far and are trying to give the industry time to adapt, but are rapidly getting sicker and sicker of seeing the same stereotypes and devices and are thus making more noise.

...seems to be you actually trying to CONFIRM this.

[Qitsune]

...It's not that simple. Not all men require beautiful female leads...

It's a good thing because Tetris and Gran Turismo would have been total failures!

...Yeah, seriously. And WTH is up with Ubisoft's "Imagine"? First they give us a strong, likeable heroine like Jade and then say "oh, but here's a game that little GIRLS can enjoy" and throw those . . . things at us? ...

Well, developpers like Ubi use focus groups, with live people (read, little girls)and ask them tons of questions, so I guess some of them are interested in figure skating games and they said so. And guess what, little girls don't buy games, parents, uncles and grandmothers buy games for little girls, so what do they buy? They choose cute little games with pets and babies, not these volent boy things that will make their little treasures into rebel freethinkers who want to because conceptartists and draw monsters for a living. So you can blame grandparents for the Imagine series as much as anything else if you feel like blaming someone.

While making a "Barbie horse adventure" game will get you 80% girl to guy ratio, it will also have a very small return....


Developpers are not stupid enough to keep going with a product if it's not profitable. There are dozens and dozens of Barbie video games, they were being made already when I started out in the game industry 8 years, ago, they are still being made. They are bought by grandparents for their little girls.

Second Life got extremely popular when males entered the game looking for virtual freedom and virtual sex. Females entered the game with interest in the social community and found the best thing to do was exploit the male's need for virtual sex to make money. Males left the game because community only games aren't exciting to males. Females got really confused and kept building the world... then shortly left as the community diminished.

Large population + community = girl fun!

FACT!
Is there something wrong with thinking that maybe girls ENJOY the online sex as much as the boys do? Face it, some of them do, it's not just for the money. Think of a place where if a guy is a jerk you can just log off and where you can flirt and you don't have to worry about someone putting stuff in your drink.

It's sort of an interesting self-sustaining dilemma. If the video-game development industry is largely dominated by males, and people generally are most enthusiastic to make the kinds of games they themselves would want to play, then it is really hardly any wonder why the most popular videogames today are high-octane, testosterone fueled rambo-fests.

...

Instead, I think we're just going to continue seeing the gradual paradigm shift that has been happening all along. As more women take up creative positions in development studios, there will be an ever-increasing impetus and pressure get believable, three dimensional characters that both sexes can relate to.


Quoted for truth. We're only about 10% females where I work and that includes the HR and admin ladies and the front desk attendant.

[Qitsune]

double post, oops

[Mirana]

It's not so much a "get back in the kitchen" mindset as it is a "oh look, it's a girl, she's there to be a guy's girlfriend" mentality. [...]
I ought to start telling people I'm actually a guy, but that gets annoying after a while, and dies the moment you go on teamspeak with people. =/

Eventually my little sister got so tired of the harassment that she asked a good friend to pretend to be her husband so that they'd leave her alone. Another male friend of mine usually plays the attractive femme characters and he is always running into people trying to pick him up. If the guys want to know what it's like maybe they should try playing a femme and if asked for teamspeak, say your mic is broken. ;)

the sleeping with them is actually up to you playing the game. You can sleep with none, with one, a few, or all.

Haha, that reminds me of Fable. You could marry and sleep with just about every woman in the game...you could also marry and sleep with a few of the men (and your character was male). I had a lot of husbands. :D Strangely, having my character run around in just a skirt made him more attractive to me and the NPCs than wearing normal men's clothes.

I agree that having interesting female playable avatars is hugely important--and not just for us. My male friends are equally excited to play the femme characters.

[Mirana]

emphasis mine. and sufficient reason for me to stay the hell away from any reading material you recommend and also not bother with any further interaction.

i'll only say this:

the original article basically states that female gamers (referred to) are mindless morons.

and your

Or maybe we've just been patient thus far and are trying to give the industry time to adapt, but are rapidly getting sicker and sicker of seeing the same stereotypes and devices and are thus making more noise.

...seems to be you actually trying to CONFIRM this.


Just wow. And here I thought your original statements were not that bad and thus you'd bring something to the discussion. I take that back. You are That Guy who needs to read the link fanficbug posted before you make a bigger ASS out of yourself. (Which is reading material FOR EVERYONE as it addresses thought patterns in male-to-female relationships, but can be expanded to any blank-vs-blank class situation)

Also, I have no clue what you are trying to prove with your "girls are mindless morons"="girls being patient" quotes. I don't see how that confirms anything or how that set you off.

[Pavel Sokov]

I wouldn't want to make games for girls, that is just going to make my sales weaker.

[Candy Rain]

I wouldn't want to make games for girls, that is just going to make my sales weaker.

...Are you serious? *ogles*

Y'know, normally I'm of the mind that sexism is more often than not overly trumpeted and that we really don't live in the never-was-50s anymore, but then I see something like this and my head just hurts.

[Jtho]

...Are you serious? *ogles*

Y'know, normally I'm of the mind that sexism is more often than not overly trumpeted and that we really don't live in the never-was-50s anymore, but then I see something like this and my head just hurts.

He probably could have said it in a better way, but which part of that statement is wrong? Right now, the market isn't there yet and making a game for girls has so far meant slapdash production of shovelware crap that probably does as much harm as good for growing the market of game-playing women.

[daestwen]

He probably could have said it in a better way, but which part of that statement is wrong? Right now, the market isn't there yet and making a game for girls has so far meant slapdash production of shovelware crap that probably does as much harm as good for growing the market of game-playing women.

Um, the market isn't there yet..? Oh really.

Okay. I'll go tell WoW and the Sims that they TOTALLY have all their sales figures wrong..

I don't think we need games for girls, per say, just ones that keep us in mind. :P

[Jtho]

You'll notice neither WoW nor The Sims are made "for girls". They are popular with females in spite of their design, not because they were necessarily made to be.

[Sway West]

Right now, the market isn't there yet...

The market is there, actually, with something like 38% of gamers being female. The general consensus seems to be that games not be created specifically for women, but for women to be considered during the production and marketing of a game. This seems to be turning into less of a moral issue, and more of a sales debate, so I'll argue that almost 40% in potential market increase is something worth considering.

[fanficbug]

...Are you serious? *ogles*

Y'know, normally I'm of the mind that sexism is more often than not overly trumpeted and that we really don't live in the never-was-50s anymore, but then I see something like this and my head just hurts.

What's ironic about this is I just got finished writing a post (well, a half-post) on this topic not five minutes ago. I'll go ahead and quote it here if that's all right.

Yeah, anybody who doubts that should see the statue of Mary Jane from the Spiderman series doing Spidey's laundry (http://devildoll.livejournal.com/750924.html), in a thong, with her pants ripped up, pushing her butt out, and (to add insult to injury) wearing a pearl necklace. For those of you who don't know why that last one is so offensive, look here for the connotations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_necklace_%28sexuality%29) of "pearl necklace" (mildly NSFW).

It sold out very quickly after coming out, and when complaints started coming in from women who were offended, they were deleted by the statue's creator. Letters sent to Marvel got a canned response (quote: "Our product is not produced to make a political or social statement but is fashioned after entertainment properties currently in the market place. We suggest that if you do find the Mary Jane product offensive that you refrain from viewing that web page."), and blogs on the subject were trolled by such lovely specimens as this:

http://devildoll.livejournal.com/750924.html?thread=6828364#t6828364
http://devildoll.livejournal.com/750924.html?thread=6841164#t6841164

(they're the same person by the IP addresses, btw)

It wasn't even the feminist blogs that got inundated with this crap: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=175677

There were blogs, counter-blogs, threads, counter-threads, and finally tons of news on it. When did this happen? . . . May 2007.

If you don't understand why we wimmins would get upset at this (even if you are a woman)? Please read this post (http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/214607.html) and the comments on the original blog. If that doesn't enlighten you then I don't know what will. :shrug:

So yes, sexism, racism, classism, ableism, and every other -ism under the sun is still alive and well. If you don't know about it . . . well, I guess you should consider yourself lucky, but know that it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

*Gets of the soapbox*

[Jtho]

Well, the business aspect is key in understanding how the games industry behaves. These are for-profit companies after all, so dollars are inevitably the motivation for everything they do on some level.

Now I'm curious how those studies are coming up with a 40% figure. For sure there is a very high proportion of women who play casual java and flash based browser games, but can we really throw someone who plays only Yahoo Pool, or even someone who owns a DS and one game (probably Nintendogs or Brain Age) in with the same demographic that GTA4 is shooting for, to use a timely example?

I think there's a distinction to be made between "indoctrinated" or "hardcore" gamers and casual gamers. The casual game market that includes women is definitely there, which is again why we have seen so many of these shovelware DS and Wii casual games that are in part or in whole aimed at girls.

I think what most of the people in this thread are clamoring for however is change in the more substantive, heavy gaming experiences--which is what I'm mostly talking about in my previous posts. The viable female market for these types of games I have to imagine IS significantly smaller than in the casual games market, which Is why I said the market probably isn't there to justify a complex, high-budget, narrative driven game aimed specifically at women.

[fanficbug]

(Damn, I was wondering why I was so lost, turns out I missed the rest of the last page.)

emphasis mine. and sufficient reason for me to stay the hell away from any reading material you recommend and also not bother with any further interaction.

i'll only say this:

the original article basically states that female gamers (referred to) are mindless morons.

and your

Or maybe we've just been patient thus far and are trying to give the industry time to adapt, but are rapidly getting sicker and sicker of seeing the same stereotypes and devices and are thus making more noise.

...seems to be you actually trying to CONFIRM this.

Man, do you guys smell that?

It smells like bullshit and ignorance in here . . .

In all seriousness? Dude. Think about the way women were portrayed in, say, Bully. Was there ever a strong female who wasn't attached somehow to a guy? (I considered the lunch lady at least partially this until she lost her head over a date with one of the teachers.) How about a girl with some depth? How about a girl who wasn't just considered kissing fodder? I mean, seriously? I liked the game all right, but that aspect of it gets on my nerves terribly and really makes it almost impossible for me to play. So I'm waiting patiently for a game that can be like Bully, except with better attention to making female characters that actually portray women like . . . oh, human beings who think about more than clothes, babies, guys, and cooking.

(And that I can actually afford, but let's face it, I'll save up for a game that can do this for me.)

And by think, I mean really think about how that could POSSIBLY be offensive to a woman, any woman. Think about how a woman is inundated with the kinds of messages (your opinion doesn't count, you are ignorant, you are wrong, you are only here for dating/sexing, you must be a certain type of woman to be considered "okay," shut up and sit down, you don't have any RIGHT to your opinion, you must just hate men, you're just oversensitive, you just need to get laid, you just want to be a bitch) that we get from the media and from other people--not just men, but other women who don't see the problem, too--and think about how frustrating it must be to be told to shut up and that we aren't worth interacting with if we have those opinions when we complain. And if you can think of any POSSIBLE way that women could be offended and have a right to be offended, and yet think that women should shut up about it? Welcome to being part of the problem.

If you're a man and you see something you don't like, you can decide "I don't like this particular portrayal of men, so I will just ignore it and go to something else." There aren't a lot of "something else"s for women out there.

And honestly? If any man out there can actually say, "Jeez, I hate the way guys are portrayed most of the time in videogames" and get sympathy (and rightly so, as has already been covered)? Why can't women say it too? We're getting the same treatment in every video game, and worse treatment in most video games. Why is it suddenly so threatening that we're complaining about that?

Well, developpers like Ubi use focus groups, with live people (read, little girls)and ask them tons of questions, so I guess some of them are interested in figure skating games and they said so. And guess what, little girls don't buy games, parents, uncles and grandmothers buy games for little girls, so what do they buy? They choose cute little games with pets and babies, not these volent boy things that will make their little treasures into rebel freethinkers who want to because conceptartists and draw monsters for a living. So you can blame grandparents for the Imagine series as much as anything else if you feel like blaming someone.

Yeah, my grandmother is EXACTLY the same way.

She stopped buying me games around the time she took me to GameXChange and I picked up Resident Evil 2. :D

. . . Still I have to say, at least Ubi is TRYING. I gotta give them props for that.

[Mirana]

Jtho do you actually know any women gamers or have read any studies on the subject? Or are you giving your opinion of the market based on your idea of what it should be like?

I don't know a single, solitary "casual" female gamer...and I know a shit-ton of female gamers.

[Flake]

I don't know a single, solitary "casual" female gamer...and I know a shit-ton of female gamers.

I do, Mrs Flake loves her some Chuzzle and she bought a Wii last week.

Edit: On the other hand, she'd also own everyone posting here at Tony Hawks and she completed the first 2 Tenchu games on "grandmaster" so I suppose "female gamer who also enjoys casual games" would be a better description..

Anyway, interesting, carry on.

[Costau D]

Some of the girls I've seen try and get into video games (usually because their boyfriend is into them) they quit pretty quickly. Main reason I have observed is the mentality of some male gamers. It's almost like they don't realise they do it. They treat the girl condescendingly, and try to show off more than just having fun with the person they are teaching and playing with. You want a girlfriend to get into games with you? Take the time to actually just have fun playing the game with them instead of getting irritated with them when they make a mistake, or getting overly excited/anxious. It's funny when a girl plays a game with a group of guys. They react completely differently. Actually encourage them to play, and don't make them feel like an elephant in the room.

[Jtho]

Jtho do you actually know any women gamers
Yep, I do, but this is completely beside the point. First of all, anecdotal evidence, yours or mine, is just that. Anectodal. Extrapolating personal experiences out past a certain point is a mistake when we're talking about statistics and trends. Second, where exactly are we drawing the line on what a "gamer" is? Someone who:

-Plays Windows Solitaire or Minesweeper?
-Owns a Neopets account?
-Plucks away a little at Guitar Hero or plays Wii Sports at parties?
-Owns a Nintendo DS with one game?
-Has Metal Gear Solid 4 on preorder?

These are all people who play games, but I think it would be a big mistake generalize and call them all "gamers" for the purposes of this discussion.

or have read any studies on the subject?
Yes, but apparently you think I'm grossly mistaken about something. Maybe you could be more specific?


Or are you giving your opinion of the market based on your idea of what it should be like?
I'm confused. I thought I had been giving my opinion on the current state of the industry and that it is not how it should be.

I don't know a single, solitary "casual" female gamer...and I know a shit-ton of female gamers.

Here's a study for you, pulled from the article linked in the OP. The Casual Games Association reports that 74% of paying customers for these games are female.

[•Lindsay•]

The idea that women could benefit from having some decent games aimed at their demographic isn't sexist. Most video games are male fantasies. I don't object to male fantasies, but the problem is that most video games with a plot are either male fantasies, or some Hannah Montana thing. Women aren't going to wake up in the morning and think "gee, I feel like killing some video game prostitutes today." Most video games star men, and if there is a girl in the game she is the love interest of the man. Some girls play games like that anyway (although many of them won't admit it), because most video games are ultimately about testing your reaction time and solving puzzles, so they can be fun even if the plots aren't interesting. But it would still be cool if there were more video games with good plots.

There aren't any video games I know of that star average looking women who aren't beautiful. Video games stars can be a lot of undesirable things, like homicidal postal workers, mobsters, hedgehogs, ect. But no video game is daring enough to use an less than perfect woman as one of the protagonists. That's just too disturbing.

They made a game called Super Princess Peach, but apparently in order to play it you must make Peach choose the right emotion for every situation. Lol.

[Costau D]

lol pay attention to the way girls are portrayed in this :P. This is what its like to be a male gamer.

0OzWIFX8M-Y

[Sorknes]

lol pay attention to the way girls are portrayed in this :P. This is what its like to be a male gamer.

Same guys that had Boten Anna. *lol*

[Costau D]

Same guys that had Boten Anna. *lol*

I don't know who has more of a life. Those who play dota or halo, or their girlfriends who watch them play.


just so people know what you're talking about. Gotta love bots hahaha.

dRRi-13KXes

[fanficbug]

The Casual Games Association reports that 74% of paying customers for these games are female.

And a woman couldn't possibly play both casual games and "hardcore" games?

For example . . . I've bought Chuzzle. However, I also have a 336 hour file on Star Ocean: The Second Story. Because I've bought Chuzzle, I'm a paying customer for a casual game, and thus part of that statistic. Yet because I bought a casual game I'm suddenly just a casual gamer? I'd say that the amount of time and money I've put into gaming at least puts me in the "gamer" camp if not the "hardcore gamer" one.

And of course, as others have mentioned here, WoW and The Sims have proved that you can have a female majority in fans, so it's not just because most of us are into casual gaming.

EDIT: I WTF'd XD Those songs are both kind of out there, in a cool yet weird yet . . . =/ way.

EDIT2: "She can ban you, ban you so hard" AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Sorknes]

Horrible subtexting though. "A bot that nobody can hit".... When it's supposed to be a bot that nobody can beat... as in not be better than. *rofl*

Ok, back to topic *lol*

[Mirana]

I was genuinely asking the above questions. IE do you have reference of somesort? If you will poo-poo a 40% static as perhaps including "casual gamers" then it's time to bring out the market study reports, eh? (The statistic above tells us nothing about what those 74% of women buy outside of the "Casual Games Association.") I wonder how many actually feel comfortable even admitting (http://womengamers.com/articles/editorials/gamer-shame/) to being part of the market in the first place.

The ladies here are not asking that Spider Solitare represent women better--they are asking that main stream titles do so. We are talking about "gamers" in the sense that you apparently are.

[Peter Coene]

Um, the market isn't there yet..? Oh really.

Okay. I'll go tell WoW and the Sims that they TOTALLY have all their sales figures wrong..

I don't think we need games for girls, per say, just ones that keep us in mind. :P
Ok, WoW was designed for everyone, even the non-gamers. This has always been a Blizzard tactic and thus playing WoW does not make you a gamer, regaurdless of how good a game it is or how hot the bloodelves are.

The sims is an abomination and needs to be burned. (I say this because my family owned one computer and my sister was always on and wasting perfectly good time that I could have spent playing Starcraft. Yeah, hypocritical, I know)

[Sorknes]

Ok, WoW was designed for everyone, even the non-gamers. This has always been a Blizzard tactic and thus playing WoW does not make you a gamer, regaurdless of how good a game it is or how hot the bloodelves are.

The sims is an abomination and needs to be burned. (I say this because my family owned one computer and my sister was always on and wasting perfectly good time that I could have spent playing Starcraft. Yeah, hypocritical, I know)

At what point turns a person that spends at least 5-6 hrs a day on WOW into a gamer? Where the person starts playing games that you personally consider to be a "proper game" and hardcore?

Excuse me, sitting high on your horse man, but even though I don't call mum a gamer when she's playing Solitaire, I sure as do call people using so and so much of their free time on games, NO MATTER WHAT GAMES, gamers. I don't like Sims, I don't play WOW, but I won't tell them that's it's not a bloody game, will I?

Because a game is/was designed for everyone, you can not be called a gamer playing it?

Now what the hell kind of logic is that?

I'll go tell my sister she's not a TV audience because she's only watching stuff that's made for everyone, not only reality series made for a speshul audience that will follow it hardcore.

[fanficbug]

Ok, WoW was designed for everyone, even the non-gamers. This has always been a Blizzard tactic and thus playing WoW does not make you a gamer, regaurdless of how good a game it is or how hot the bloodelves are.

We're not basing the entire idea that "girls are gamers" on people who play WoW. All that we're saying is that it is possible that games can have a female majority following, so it's not like gaming is just an inherently "guy" thing. Unless you're counting the fact that women are often objectified by games, in which case I would have to agree, that does tend to be a guy thing.

The sims is an abomination and needs to be burned. (I say this because my family owned one computer and my sister was always on and wasting perfectly good time that I could have spent playing Starcraft. Yeah, hypocritical, I know)

Um . . . okay.

(As a side note, are we doing the dogpile of "you have fucking failed"? I think we are . . . )

[Peter Coene]

At what point turns a person that spends at least 5-6 hrs a day on WOW into a gamer? Where the person starts playing games that you personally consider to be a "proper game" and hardcore?

Excuse me, sitting high on your horse man, but even though I don't call mum a gamer when she's playing Solitaire, I sure as do call people using so and so much of their free time on games, NO MATTER WHAT GAMES, gamers. I don't like Sims, I don't play WOW, but I won't tell them that's it's not a bloody game, will I?

Because a game is/was designed for everyone, you can not be called a gamer playing it?

Now what the hell kind of logic is that?

I'll go tell my sister she's not a TV audience because she's only watching stuff that's made for everyone, not only reality series made for a speshul audience that will follow it hardcore.
We're not basing the entire idea that "girls are gamers" on people who play WoW. All that we're saying is that it is possible that games can have a female majority following, so it's not like gaming is just an inherently "guy" thing. Unless you're counting the fact that women are often objectified by games, in which case I would have to agree, that does tend to be a guy thing.



Um . . . okay.

(As a side note, are we doing the dogpile of "you have fucking failed"? I think we are . . . )


*facepalms*

I think I need a sarcasm sign.

[Sorknes]

*facepalms*

I think I need a sarcasm sign.

I think you do :P

Step into a thread where things are already flying a little high, and you can not be sure to NOT be taken seriously. :P

Remember, it's da intawebz. We can't see yer face.

[Mirana]

For what it's worth Pete, I had a good LOL at your sister comment. That was about the situation in our home, except there were three kids (two girls, one boy) and we were never very nice to each other when somebody wouldn't get off. Lots of violence, broken toys, broken doors...broken fuse boxes... The parents got us all cheapo computers around the same time just so we would stop beating the snot outta each other. :D

[fanficbug]

*facepalms*

I think I need a sarcasm sign.

*also facepalms*

It's okay, we all failed together. :D

Lots of violence, broken toys, broken doors...broken fuse boxes...

Jeebus O_O lol

[Mirana]

Ever been in the middle of a hot game and had the power go out? Yah, like that, only you know who was responsible. Then you exact revenge in the same manner and well with three people...someone's bound to be trapped in the area when the fight breaks out. :D

[Costau D]

I always assumed WoW players with girl avatars were just con artists leeching money off of other guy players...

[Mirana]

I always assumed WoW players with girl avatars were just con artists leeching money off of other guy players...

LOL, which is not to say whether they are male or truly female. ;D

[Eurayo]

I didn't see it mentioned in the article but Purple Moon was founded in the 90s and tried to make games for girls based on research on how girls prefer to play. Here are a couple of links about the company and its founder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Moon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Laurel

[Peter Coene]

For what it's worth Pete, I had a good LOL at your sister comment. That was about the situation in our home, except there were three kids (two girls, one boy) and we were never very nice to each other when somebody wouldn't get off. Lots of violence, broken toys, broken doors...broken fuse boxes... The parents got us all cheapo computers around the same time just so we would stop beating the snot outta each other. :D
Actually, I had one brother and one sister. My brother played waaaaaay more comp games than my sister or myself, but it bugged me more when my sister was on. Starcraft was much more fun than the Sims as a spectator sport, plus it had the fun cinematic cut scenes. However our parents used more of a totalitarian approach to end our fighting, they just yelled at us and set a rule that none of us could play on the computer more than an hour per day. (a rule that we broke whenever they were out of the house.)

[Mirana]

HA! My parents tried the same approach...though we were each given something like a 3-hr window at a certain time of day. It was equally ignored when they were gone (and since I was considered old enough to babysit, it was often). I usually took the last window so I could stay up all night and do artwork. ;) [/end tangent...really]

[fanficbug]

I used to get up at five thirty in the morning every morning so I could use the computer. :D

[Qitsune]

Would you people believe that on (pro) indie game dev forums, you see threads such as: How can I make a game that appeals to males? or How to attract male players on my site?

I find it quite hilarious when I see that. Maybe they are on to something!

[Sway West]

How can I make a game that appeals to males?

Lawn Mowerz!, Fix & Measure Thingz!, and Open Lidz on Jarz!

I think that article seals its fate by suggesting games be made specifically for women- my interest in the article is the figures, and the games on selves that are being marketed toward girls and women... and the occasional boy, I'm sure. I bet Davi has a copy of Babyz.

[fionkell]

Lawn Mowerz!, Fix & Measure Thingz!, and Open Lidz on Jarz!

You forgot "Get Stuff Off Tall Shelves". For shame!

Ah, it would have been funnier if the article had been written for The Daily Telegraph and not the Sydney Morning Herald, definitely would have been more fuel for jokes there.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

Ok make a game that has realistic bloody gory ways I can kill people across space and time and where I can have realistic sex with the monsters and bosses whenever one catches my fancy...

and be a princess.

games for girls.

[Sway West]

...and it would be called Mass Effect.