Why do all the new people want such brutal critique?

[FourTonMantis]

Are you guys gluttons for punishment or something?

Actually I'm being somewhat facetious. I've just noticed this trend among members who start sketchbooks. Their first posts consist typically of:


Their real name.
How they finally got the courage to post.
A graphic request for brutal, merciless critique.


Not every new sketchbook starts this way. I just thought it was humorous the euphemisms new members come up with concerning how they want to be brutally critiqued.

[Rage M.]

Welp now I know what not to do whenever the hell I decide to make a sketchbook here. :P

Though I'm already guilty of the second bullet. :(

[chaosrocks]

i think that htey are trying to make it known that they don't think this is DA and hope for real help rather than incessant asspats.

[B u r l]

i've noticed the same for some time... you also forgot age.

if you go on a forum where professionals are posting their work, it's normal to get intimidated at first... especially if you don't know what the community is even like.

also, the crit thing is probably just to get +rep for showing they are actually here to learn.

their name... ???

i'm guilty for it all.

[Pavel Sokov]

the "brutal/merciless critiques" and the "how i got up the courage to post" are just gimmics in my opinion. No one is afraid of a forum, they just want to look noble.

[B u r l]

"no one is afraid of a forum" - i disagree... just because it's an internet forum it doesn't mean the people you talk too are any less real. being an art forum, i find my account to be more transparent and closely linked to real life.

[fanficbug]

I agree with chaosrocks. :) They want to make it clear that they're here for critique, and that they won't flame if you do so.

(That's why my signature was the way it was for so long)

I also agree with Burl. It took me a long time to feel like it was okay to post here.

[JParrilla]

the "brutal/merciless critiques" and the "how i got up the courage to post" are just gimmics in my opinion. No one is afraid of a forum, they just want to look noble.


hmm im not too sure this is true. Im pretty sure that im talking to very human people on this forum ( I hope I am). I would be just as concerned with impressing you guys as I would people I know personally in my life. If someone on this forum tells me my art sucks, Im pretty sure I would feel the same way if lets say my art teacher told me my art sucks. So ya although alot of people posting say the same thing about being critiqued harshly, I think its because they really want to improve.. Well at least I hope so

[kool-ka-lang]

Well...one part of it is they know they're not as good as they could be, and honestly want help on their things.

On the other hand, a lot of people just post and want people to bash it so that someone else does all the work for them, so they don't have to try and figure out what's wrong first.

That's my guess.

[B u r l]

a lot of people just post and want people to bash it so that someone else does all the work for them, so they don't have to try and figure out what's wrong first.


mmm, but an untrained eye isn't going to be able to pick out the flaws that a more trained eye could, and he could also give himself wrong advice. also, with being absorbed in your own work it can be difficult for you to pick out the flaws, even if you try... that's why an outside observer really helps.

:grandpa:

[Pavel Sokov]

hmm im not too sure this is true. Im pretty sure that im talking to very human people on this forum ( I hope I am). I would be just as concerned with impressing you guys as I would people I know personally in my life. If someone on this forum tells me my art sucks, Im pretty sure I would feel the same way if lets say my art teacher told me my art sucks. So ya although alot of people posting say the same thing about being critiqued harshly, I think its because they really want to improve.. Well at least I hope so

actualy i take back what i said after i read your post. every time i psot my art in the past while you guys don't like it at all, and I do get dissapointed with that, and the things i draw as well as the way I draw correllates completely to the things you guys reply to my topics, and my inner dream to finally impress you one day that drives me forward to draw.


i really underestimated the influence this forum had on me for a bit. and i will impress you guys one day, bet on it. maybe my next art dump, maybe later, but i will inevitably ball.

[JParrilla]

actualy i take back what i said after i read your post. every time i psot my art in the past while you guys don't like it at all, and I do get dissapointed with that, and the things i draw as well as the way I draw correllates completely to the things you guys reply to my topics, and my inner dream to finally impress you one day that drives me forward to draw.


i really underestimated the influence this forum had on me for a bit. and i will impress you guys one day, bet on it. maybe my next art dump, maybe later, but i will inevitably ball.

;) See.. I told ya! Ya man its true, whether people realize it or not, everyone loves to have people on the forums say WOW!! thats a great piece, and noone likes to be told their work sucks, even if its internet buddies telling them :)

[Pavel Sokov]

especialy when there used to be a time when forums loved your work and you used to be a big deal and called a "prodigy" and such, but now no one likes anything you do anymore haha.
i was litterally more liked in the art world when i ws 16 then now that i am 18. sucks but, i deserve it.

[Dorkthrone]

i think that htey are trying to make it known that they don't think this is DA and hope for real help rather than incessant asspats.

Win and internet.
Well...one part of it is they know they're not as good as they could be, and honestly want help on their things.


I'm certainly guilty of that.

[chaosrocks]

and im afraid to post in FF or even the crit forum

[kev ferrara]

Some seem to be attempting to pander to CA members in a mistaken notion that pros on CA actually enjoy giving harsh critiques because they are ornery by nature... Pandering in order to get immediate attention and quick response. Nobody actually wants some cruel lambasting.

Others may have so little experience with dissent/critique that they assume it is intrinsically vicious and that artists will be reluctant to help them for fear of being mean. So they are in effect saying "it is okay to be mean, I absolve you of future accusations of nastiness... as long as you give me and my work some attention."

All to say, when you hear that request from a noob, ignore it and just give the best critique you can, generally starting with that which is praiseworthy, even if it is a stretch to find something worth praising, and the proceeding to a clear and calm opinion and ending with "good luck".

Avoid using phrases in the critique that might confirm the noob's mistaken notions of CA sadism, such as "I can't take this shit anymore. Throw your computer off a cliff!" or "Kindly delete the original image file and run Norton's Speed Disk on your hard drive in order to make data recovery impossible" or "this reminds me of chafed baboon ass" or the ever-popular "NO MORE PHOTOSHOP FOR YOU!!" or "Anatomy. Learn it. Live it. Buy a fucking book." or "This piece of aesthetic dung is utterly fucking hopeless and shows zero artistic talent and everybody at CA joins me in asking you to leave this site immediately as we will no longer be responding to your horrifically clueless artwork or anything you write in a post ever because you are clearly a blind one-balled fart-sniffing fucktard with emotional problems."

[Mirana]

give the best critique you can, generally starting with that which is praiseworthy, even if it is a stretch to find something worth praising, and the proceeding to a clear and calm opinion and ending with "good luck".

Not to completely side-track...but this brings an interesting point on critque structure. When taking college English for the bajillionth time I was told that ending on a positive note is good because what we read last is remembered the best and sort of colors our perception of the overall feel of the piece. Definately a good thing for a young artist who might be easily discouraged, I think.

[fanficbug]

*Nods at the above post, including the quoted bit*

I also use (and probably overuse) "good luck" a lot. It bugs me because there's really not much luck involved in learning how to draw, it's mostly just hard work. But still, I want people to get a generally good feeling from my critiques, so there you have it.

Avoid using phrases in the critique that might confirm the noob's mistaken notions of CA sadism, such as "I can't take this shit anymore. Throw your computer off a cliff!" or "Kindly delete the original image file and run Norton's Speed Disk on your hard drive in order to make data recovery impossible" or "this reminds me of chafed baboon ass" or the ever-popular "NO MORE PHOTOSHOP FOR YOU!!" or "Anatomy. Learn it. Live it. Buy a fucking book." or "This piece of aesthetic dung is utterly fucking hopeless and shows zero artistic talent and everybody at CA joins me in asking you to leave this site immediately as we will no longer be responding to your horrifically clueless artwork or anything you write in a post ever because you are clearly a blind one-balled fart-sniffing fucktard with emotional problems."

This is not to say that you shouldn't pull your punches (for example, if someone is relying on digital way too much, you should point it out), but I agree it's definitely important not to pull the last bit (completely ripping a newb a new one because you feel your critique is valid and you have made a value judgement on them based on their art and the quality thereof).

[Mirana]

I generally reverse the order. Put the "you need to work on..." at the top, then finish out with the praise.

[Whitevillage]

I don't get the get it why it should be wrong to ask honest/brutal critique? As said earlier, they really want critiques on their work and advice. Figuring 'everything' self out only is nonsense, you don't want that they get stuck into something and think: 'Oh LOL!! That's acceptable!' and hardly improve. You don't need to hold their hands the whole time, but once in a while a suggestion will do the trick to help evolving their work.

More annoying I think are the 'Hi I'm only XX years old' as a thread name. I understand they like to mention it as an excuse for their skills, but I think it's not important to gain (internet)respect at all.

[Fjooner]

I think they are just trying to open it up 100% so they can get as much crits as possible. Especially if you are teaching your self, it's difficult to get as much feedback and response as you would want in the beginning, because the artwork isn't entertaining enough to get peoples attention. So the few times you get feedback, you want people to be honest, and not hold back just to "spare your feelings" (as many do on other forums).

I think this is the case mostly for people just starting to get serious about things and desperatly want tonns of feedback of any kind on everything. They stop being so needy after a while.

[aea]

What especially annoys me is when people actually do get the brutal critique they desired and immediately they start trying to defend or make excuses for it. If they know their work is below even their own standards, they should just focus on what needs to be fixed and actually put a little effort into improving it. Anyone can tell when something doesn't look right, but how do you get better? Usually that's practice, but some people don't like to hear that answer.

Critiques remind us of the process involved and other things we may not see. Harsh or not.

[Chris Bennett]

"I can't take this shit anymore. Throw your computer off a cliff!" or "Kindly delete the original image file and run Norton's Speed Disk on your hard drive in order to make data recovery impossible" or "this reminds me of chafed baboon ass" or the ever-popular "NO MORE PHOTOSHOP FOR YOU!!" or "Anatomy. Learn it. Live it. Buy a fucking book." or "This piece of aesthetic dung is utterly fucking hopeless and shows zero artistic talent and everybody at CA joins me in asking you to leave this site immediately as we will no longer be responding to your horrifically clueless artwork or anything you write in a post ever because you are clearly a blind one-balled fart-sniffing fucktard with emotional problems."

That's the nicest thing you have ever said about me Kev......:teeth:

[CCThrom]

One good way to approach critique is the "crit sandwich"

* start by noting something positive about the work
* insert critique here... be specific! (don't just say, "anatome ndz wrk, lol")
* finish with uplifting comment and/or best wishes for continued improvement

Unless of course what you're critiquing actually happens to be chafed baboon ass...

[Jazz]

What especially annoys me is when people actually do get the brutal critique they desired and immediately they start trying to defend or make excuses for it. If they know their work is below even their own standards, they should just focus on what needs to be fixed and actually put a little effort into improving it. Anyone can tell when something doesn't look right, but how do you get better? Usually that's practice, but some people don't like to hear that answer.

Critiques remind us of the process involved and other things we may not see. Harsh or not.

Sometimes I wonder if their defense is part of the path to improvement. Since maybe they never had someone touch deeper into the reasons of why something isn't working out, certainly the critique would be something totally unexpected. Kinda like tasting a little sugar on salty popcorn. Okay, weird comparison. :P Still annoying to get that defense, mind you! I agree! It's good though, to hear a little more from such an artist as "Thank yooouu!! ^^" or nothing at all. :P

Hmmmm...me, except for saying "harsh" critiques (I can't recall if I said that. I like a few notches down), I did mention those other things the original post listed. LOL! Or did I mention age? I may have speak of being senile, now. -_- And I'm STILL scared to post in some threads because I myself still am rather sensitive for critiques.

[J Wilson]

One good way to approach critique is the "crit sandwich"

* start by noting something positive about the work
* insert critique here... be specific! (don't just say, "anatome ndz wrk, lol")
* finish with uplifting comment and/or best wishes for continued improvement

Unless of course what you're critiquing actually happens to be chafed baboon ass...

Yep, that's the style I shoot for. Start with some encouragement, get into the meat of it, being honest and specific if possible, and then end it with more encourgement being specific on the areas they are doing well.

Also important is recognizing when they make progress, even if they still aren't there. Still gotta be honest, I wouldn't tell them they improved if they haven't, but often times if they took the first crit to heart and worked on things, odds are they will have made progress.

Back to the original topic though, I think the asking for a "brutal" crit is recognizing that they may have serious issues to work on, and they are prepared to hear it. Also hopefully means they don't mind you being blunt about it. No sugar coating, make it clear. No "maybe that arms needs a little work", but more of a "that elbow is completely wrong, and you have no idea what you are doing with the muscles."

[Alex Chow]

It comes down to the desire to improve. Posting personal information (at least in my opinion) displays a sense of seriousness; that the person is not only "another anonymous user on the internet". Some take it farther than others, but most choose to leave some sort of imprint that at least creates a better image than being "Anonymous". I'm certainly guilty of that and if it is deemed unnecessary or even pretentious, I would gladly edit my story out from my sketchbook.

Regarding brutal critiques; those who start sketchbooks, myself included, are tired of other websites who sugar coat opinions on their work to the point where even the polar opposite ("brutal critiques") are more beneficial to them. Think of brutal critiquing as a way to balance all of the unjustified praises - the "OMIGOSH THAT'S AWESOME"s and "WOW TEACH ME HOW TO DRAW"s - often encountered in other websites. I don't think a lot of people actually ask to be brutally whipped by text (from the sketchbooks I've seen), but certainly almost all of them would ask for critiques in general.

[Xeom]

I think most people are like me and are just looking for guidance. I guess it shows you are serious and willing to improve. I personally just took my first art course last semester and had no idea about anything before that.Even then my teacher is soft on critiques.Her 3 critique questions are, What did you like, how does it best fulfill the assignment, and what would you change.

:V I crush my ego after every session.But my self critique always seems to be "welp,draw more". I guess its as good as anything else at my current skill level.

[Pixeltron]

I've never really understood why people want the harshest crits they can get. Harsh and useful aren't the same thing and rarely go hand in hand, imo.
Perhaps these people are the earlier versions of the people who like to give harsh crits in the name of "improvement" or "honesty" but really do it to be asshats.

CCThrom's method seems pretty reasonable to me without getting "brutal" and useful to the people who need some help in learning how to give worthwhile criticisms.

[Nrx]

I would really hate if the real problem with a piece of mine is lost because the critiquer is afraid to hurt my feelings, so i'd invite them to not worry about crushing my spirit.

for example, "thats great development but there's something wrong with the face" they might know whats wrong with the head, but dont want to be too negative.

I'd much rather get "good development but you've got alot wrong with the head, go back and do some more studys and carefully look at the bone structure of the face" or whatever hope you get the point.

Although someone may be like that because they want to encourage someone to work out exactly were their work needs improvement on their own.

A question, would many of you take offence if someone did a paintover to show what they mean?
I know i wouldnt, and i realise its still polite to ask but due to the nature of a forum it really slows the process down.

[Whitevillage]

I've never really understood why people want the harshest crits they can get. Harsh and useful aren't the same thing and rarely go hand in hand, imo.
Perhaps these people are the earlier versions of the people who like to give harsh crits in the name of "improvement" or "honesty" but really do it to be asshats.

I honestly did'nt think about 'brutal' that way that it ain't useful. The word 'honest' fits the description better and I believe that what is said earlier about other artcommunities is also an important fact why they ask it that way. But then again, if they did lurk more before they post, they would have known that this place ain't an asspattery place either. Hmm...

[Darasen]

Perhaps for some people it is similar to an American Idol experience. being critiqued by some of the greats here is like having Simon rip into you.

[paramnesia]

Brutal is a bit much, and, imo, few people, especially new sketchbook posters, really want to be tossed to the wolves. The request for brutal critique to me sounds like trying to prove you're tough enough to be taken seriously.

I would really hate if the real problem with a piece of mine is lost because the critiquer is afraid to hurt my feelings, so i'd invite them to not worry about crushing my spirit. for example, "thats great development but there's something wrong with the face" they might know whats wrong with the head, but dont want to be too negative.
But at the same time, honest doesn't need to be rude. One can balance crit with praise, as long as there is something to praise, keeping in mind the individual's skill level and assuming a willingness to improve. Honesty is the key though; false praise won't help. I'm guilty of that line, by the way, ^^;; because "something" looks off to my eye, but I can't put my finger on it right away.

I personally like paint overs. Sometimes it's hard to explain what's "wrong" with a piece in words.

[subversive-imaginati]

In my opinion it depends on the person.

Some say that because they think it's what they should say.
Some say it to demonstrate that they aren't afraid.
Some say it to get kudos for being tough.
Some say it because they think all critique is brutal.
Some say it because they genuinely want to know every single issue and problem with their work.

The problem is telling those who really really want to know apart for those who say they want it when they actually don't.

[Nibras]

Well mines is just first showing a little bit about my self age where i come from where i live etc just to get people to know me more.
Then it goes into info about how long i've been drawing and then it just says crits will be welcomed.
Thats because i know by getting crits about all my bad points i ave goals to aim for, for example when people tell me that my anatomy need work portraits need work and hands, i study hands portraits and anatomy even more and focus on them.
For me crits just help me improve really because i try hard to see my mistakes but only make out a few.
I do it to show i will take it serouisley and will hard on improving and i think most other people are the same.

[Runya Jade]

Personally, I'm not looking for a cut me to ribbons crit. I m looking for the ones that can tell me thing things I am doing right along with the things that I need to work on. Honestly it is all in the words you use and if your tying to be really helpful. just MPO.

[waranghira]

What especially annoys me is when people actually do get the brutal critique they desired and immediately they start trying to defend or make excuses for it.

reasoning is a right for democratic people. why won't they use it?
try not to get much annoyed because of it XD

[Stoat]

It's a very old tradition (how old? I have no idea. Older'n I am) that brutal, nasty critiques are especially good for you because they shock you out of your complacency and force you to work especially hard. Or something. I can remember a couple of crits I got that were doozies. I don't know if they "shocked me out of complacency" so much as "made me want to slip broken glass in your coffee you filthy, senile old bastard."

I don't think deliberately cruel crits are particularly helpful. If there's value in the work, it should be pointed out along with the criticisms. It's equally important for people to know what they got right.

An exception might be someone whose self-opinion is clearly...not supported by the evidence. Looking at stuff on CA, I've noticed that posts which begin "I'm pretty pleased with how this came out..." generally have a disappointing piece of art attached. Not always, but often.

Even there, I don't have it in me to critique savagely. A little snark is usually the most I can manage.

[~Faust~]

Complaining about how stupid the noobs are, huh?

No problem, be harsh, I can take it.

[Black Spot]

Well I still consider myself a n00b here, but I don’t care if I get criticised or praised, because I’m my own worst critic. I suppose there are those who aren’t sure of standing back and looking at what they have done with a critical eye that need help, but I can’t help feeling that most of it is down to false modesty or they’re into S&M.

[hitnrun]

the "brutal/merciless critiques" and the "how i got up the courage to post" are just gimmics in my opinion. No one is afraid of a forum, they just want to look noble.

Actually I'm going to agree with Chaosrocks on this one. I don't believe this is a site for "incessant asspats". This website is for the more serious artist, and thats exactly why I left DA to come here. I don't see much, if any anime at all on here, and thats something I can really appreciate.

[hitnrun]

It's a very old tradition (how old? I have no idea. Older'n I am) that brutal, nasty critiques are especially good for you because they shock you out of your complacency and force you to work especially hard. Or something. I can remember a couple of crits I got that were doozies. I don't know if they "shocked me out of complacency" so much as "made me want to slip broken glass in your coffee you filthy, senile old bastard."

I don't think deliberately cruel crits are particularly helpful. If there's value in the work, it should be pointed out along with the criticisms. It's equally important for people to know what they got right.

An exception might be someone whose self-opinion is clearly...not supported by the evidence. Looking at stuff on CA, I've noticed that posts which begin "I'm pretty pleased with how this came out..." generally have a disappointing piece of art attached. Not always, but often.

Even there, I don't have it in me to critique savagely. A little snark is usually the most I can manage.

I hate to double post, and I'm sure I couldve easily editted this (I'm still a forum noob - I cant figure out how to type between attachments or how to do double/triple quotes per post) but I also second what Stoat has mentioned above.