Big Fat Rant

[HunterKiller_]

One of the newly installed assessments this year at my animation school is the group animation project.

After much anxiety and anticipation, it's finally started.
It's not glamorous to say the least.

The chosen groups were announced by the tutors today, and everybody's proposed stories had been pitched.

It's the first day and there has already been plenty of talking behind backs going on.
Quite ironic as our tutors commented on how well the class has got along with each other so far.

There are a couple of certain people who are really hard to work with, and the rest of us feel sorry for those who were grouped with them.

What really frustrates me is how narrow minded some of these people are! (probably gonna sound like a hypocrite somewhere here.)
90% of the stories pitched were generic slapstick gags that have been done to death, and after being at animation school for 2 years, some of these people still have this idea that animation is suppose to be funny, happy and childish.
That's the conception from the general public! These people who are studying animation should be the last to think so! It's idiotic!

Most of the students reject anything that's slightly more sophisticated, and don't even bother to look at anything that lacks humor.

This is what a person in the same group as me said, "I don't wanna do this story because it's got sci-fi and space stuff. I hate sci-fi and space stuff."

What. The. Fuck?

I actually thought most of my class mates would have some original ideas that didn't include failed attempts at humor, but I'm just shocked at what's come out.
I guess it also doesn't help that even our tutors support the 'funny and bright' over original and experimental concepts.

*sigh* So yeah, feels good to get that off my chest. :)

[aesir]

Im an animation major too, and believe me, I understand what the average animator's story ideas are. Mine aren't so great either.

But thats the thing, not everyone's strengths lie in character and plot development. That's a rare talent that you have to really work at. You're all second years, so OF COURSE the stories aren't going to be amazing sophisticated plots. Most of them undoutedly haven't progressed far enough on the screen writing side of things, so they're going to stick to simple, fun gags, where they'll remain funny, regardless of how well done, technically, they are.

Hopefully, someone in your group has a passion for storytelling, and hopefully, that person will be persuasive enough to get the rest of the group to fall in love with his story as well.

In the end, what you guys really need to do, is all sit down, and brain storm together, and come up with an idea that you all work out together so that there is some shared ownership between you guys. Not everyone will be happy, you have to compromise, but it's going to be the best way of doing things if you guys can't all agree on one student's story.

Also, make sure to find out what everyone's strengths and weaknesses are. Give people room to be creative. No one is gonna get excited about working on someone else's idea that's already been completely fleshed out. You're all creative people, so try and enjoy the freedom you have while you're still at school. There will be plenty of time for someone else to tell you exactly what they want after you graduate.

Edit: as far as the person who hated sci-fi... that's fair I guess. I hate yaoi.

[HunterKiller_]

aesir: Good to know someone else can relate to my predicament.
This is actually our 3rd and last year.
In terms of storytelling, I guess the course is rather flawed, actually, more like non-existent.

The other two people in my group have pretty much set our sights on a story, but as I mentioned, the one other person doesn't like it, purely because of the fact that it has some sci-fi elements.
She's actually quite insistent on her own story, which is impossible to do because we have 5 minutes feature time max, and her story is more like a half hour TV episode.

Hopefully I can convince her by drawing lots of pretty pictures this weekend, because I'm no good with stories either. :P

[aesir]

Well, in a perfect world, you guys would be able to come together and come up with a story that you're all somewhat happy with and be able to make some compromises. That would be the ideal solution.

If not, you all outvote her, shes pissed off, does shoddy/little work, you get to work on your project.

[newman]

i know exactly what you mean. although my animation degree was a while ago now (ten years! eep.) i had the same thing. of all the ideas that got pitched, only the "family friendly" ones got voted my by classmates to be made.
it's sad the lack of imagination that a lot of students suffer from. :(

i'd advise just trying to find ways to produce your own stuff wherever and whenever you can. good luck!

[Costau D]

Don't completely obsess over the story. Settle on a concept and just try to tell it to the best of your ability. I got caught in that trap, and my original story went from a serious thoughtful animation too dumbed down and family friendly.

That's because I was worried what people thought, and trying to explain something as abstract like lets say, Fallen Art. All you are going to get is contorted faces, and the realization that much of the knowledge that stems from even your teachers doesnt go beyond their Disney or Pixar viewing experience. Many of them don't watch shorts, and think youre weird for not appealing to family. One guy tried to give me a guilt trip about it.

Anyway, my point? Don't change the concept of the story at all during the process ocne you got it down, and just work on structuring it properly and getting good acting through the animation, because not everyone is going to truly understand your pitch until at least a good animatic is produced. Even then that wont matter. Just do your best and don't stress. NEVER procrastinate on anything during this project. When you start feeling completely content and you start backing down try not to get TOO comfortable. Take your breaks, be patient, learn to call things done, and jus have fun with it. The more srious you get about it, and the more judgemental you become over what is being produced you will eventually shoot yourself in the foot. So the most important thing is too never get bitter,

[Kian]

Dont get angry at them, its a waste of time. Their inability to adapt and develop as artists will ensure they dont get the careers they really want. Also, dont talk about how wrong they are, show them by example through your own work. Otherwise, you are exactly the same as them.

[Vhan Juju]

Dude, Get to a bookstore and pick up the latest copy of 3D world, and nab thier DVD on "the 50 best indie animations" Its a good 4 hours of mind blowing animation, and the best part is,

I can only really call maybe..3-4 of them "happy family fun" type of animations. Some of them are pretty deep.

Sit down and watch a few wiht your team and try to get them thinking.

(Personally I suggest 90 degrees, Ego, Graw_, to name a few)

That DVD is absoltley a MUST HAVE! spend the 15 bucks on the mag, you won't regreat it!

[Meloncov]

What school are you going to?

[Costau D]

General rule of thumb. Try your hardest not to go to a school that is franchised. It's not just about the quality of teachers, but the quality of students they actually allow in. And, in my opinion, franchised schools are wayyyyy too leniant on who they let in. Even so! If you do go to a school like this work your butt off and get as much out of it as you can. Like said up above complaining and being bitter is a waste of energy.

oh yeah, and buy lots of training DVDs.

[egerie]

I can understand where the « don’t like sci-fi” stuff is coming from. Some people have a hard time with clean lines and rigid models. It forces you to have your perspective down and sense of stylisation sharp. Also, it’s easy to fall into lots of detailing that is hell to animate. Anyhoo, to each their own.
Perhaps starting to find an idea in a context is already getting ahead of yourself and limiting story-wise. I think a good story could take place in the middle ages, in a fox hole or on planet Zurg389-13. It’s the content of what you say that’s more important. I think trying to dig within yourself and bringing a basic HUMAN emotion is your lead. Do you want funny? Think of something YOU recently found hilarious. Want empathy (not lukewarm sympathy please!), dig back end echo something you felt in a certain situation. Build a context around that with a story layout; situation, change of situation, conflict, dealing with conflict, result of actions, new situation (fail / win / draw?). No need to be Tolkien to find something interesting to write about, as long as you structure your work it’ll be fine. K.I.S.S.!

You must be familiar with Ed Hooks I suppose. Perhaps a quick re-read of Acting for Animators is in order :)

5 Mins sounds pretty long. How much time do you have? And how many members on the team?

Also, dealing with a difficult member trains you to deal with real-life work situations. It’s all about listening, understanding the frustration or where they come from and work with or around it. Get a little psychological and take the high road. Then put on your diplomatic hat on and deal / convince / reassure your way to a solution. Slipping a dagger in someone’s ribs by political manoeuvres (outvote, ostracise) only works so long….. and puts you on a shitlist real quick! Not to mention she might probably be completely demotivated and have the quality of YOUR end product suffer. Animation takes so long anyway.. it’s good to have solo projects but most of the time it’s a team effort. Heck, I’m the first one to think that “I can do better and I’ll do it on my own, damnit!”. But then beyond pride there’s reality. ;)
So in a nutshell, try to make the most of it and Keep It Simple Stupid. In the end, if you all fail to meet on common grounds and write a good concept, at least you can rely on your own skills and have a segment of your story that will be animated to your liking.


</pragmatism>

[tomwaits4noman]

from my experience studying animation in college I would advise the following

what you need is a simple idea, the problem with animators if that as a medium it gives you endless possibilities so your imagination runs riot and you end you trying to animate a feature film in 5 minutes or less (which in animation terms is a hell of a long time).

what you need is a simple premise, two characters one location or maybe two
use these as limitations set a time frame and decide on a conflict to drive the plot and resolution with these limits you will come up something achievable in the time frame.

a lot of people opt for laughs because animation can lend itself quiet well to gag based material, you don't need a strong plot just a few funny gags and you will get a some what positive reaction.

-------

I am surprised they have you doing group projects, I suppose it makes sense as it would mirror a studio environment.
You need to clearly define roles for each person in the group or else you going to be a nightmare trying to do the project

[biscuitninja]

Have you ever thought about using stories from histroy? Maybe even a outright fantasy, comic, books? There is SOooo much out there that is available (unless they want an original)....

Again, don't worry about what those guys think, lead by example. Most of the time, the person who gets the most ideas out there will have one hit. The person who says..."i don't like it" won't have much to contribute and it will reflect in their career and work.... poorly.

good luck and good work
-bix

[aesir]

one little comment,

I find it really annoying how schools are starting to push for more and more mandatory group projects for student thesis'. They see these amazing group projects from badass film schools like gobelins, and they think that if they force groups on us, they'll get the same quality, and therefore, that their school will get the same recognition, when in the end, those other schools kick so much ass because the students and teachers there are just fucking AMAZING.

[biscuitninja]

Aesir,
Well to me the group issue has always been a part of learning to work with others. Alot of the time we won't be working by ourselves, its just too impractical for large scale projects. I know what you mean, when it is just me, i can control alot of who/what/when and why, but that can be a huge amount of work if the project scope grows. In groups, even if the scope grows, you can achieve quite alot if the group works well with each other.....

Anyways goodluck
-bix

[Peter Coene]

While I agree that animation should be used for other things than slapstick humor you have to realise that is is difficult to fit something epic into the 5 min time slot provided by a short without it either seeming sappy, amateurisch, contrived, incomplete, or just a demo lacking intrinsic value. Its not impossible to make a short that is serious, but humor on the other hand can be fit into any time frame, in fact, the longer it takes to tell a joke the worse the joke often is. I'm not saying that humor is the only way to go, but it is an easy out.

Honestly, when you really think about it 5 mins gives enough time for the following options:
-humor/family friendly
-violent cut scene with no story
-music stuff
-newagey abstract (can actually be pretty cool and a big seller)
-porn

-(edit: added after seeing space chimp's post below) limmited commentary about overarching philosophical ideals such as life/death, time lost, meaning of life, etc etc. Such an example can't go into great detail, but can send a simple mesage very effectively.

There isn't enough time there to build up a major story of any significance, and most other options I can think of are rather annoying without a story (no matter how cool they look, they are eyecandy without explanation and usually hold no value to a viewer.)(granted, I could be wrong, see prev. edit)

BTW, scifi is not an "original and experimental concept."

[aesir]

Aesir,
Well to me the group issue has always been a part of learning to work with others. Alot of the time we won't be working by ourselves, its just too impractical for large scale projects. I know what you mean, when it is just me, i can control alot of who/what/when and why, but that can be a huge amount of work if the project scope grows. In groups, even if the scope grows, you can achieve quite alot if the group works well with each other.....

Anyways goodluck
-bix

I definitely agree with you, and I think group projects are wonderful when people come together and collaborate because they all are passionate about an idea, but what i HATE is forcing group projects on people that want to work on their own idea. A thesis is, sometimes, a person's last opportunity to spend a ton of time creating their own film before they spend the rest of their lives doing work for others in a big studio.

I was lucky enough to be in the last class at my school to allow solo thesis projects. After us, they're forcing group projects on everyone. And the reason they're doing it, is definitely because they feel the final films will be better, and get more recognition for the school.

[Costau D]

Want to see a good animation, with no dialogue, straight to the point, meaningful, and told under 3 minutes?

Undo- Tomek Baginski

ecpDqLvCT0Q

The animation itself may be a bit stiff, but the direction and the way it is told I find pretty damn well done.

[Peter Coene]

Want to see a good animation, with no dialogue, straight to the point, meaningful, and told under 3 minutes?

Undo- Tomek Baginski

ecpDqLvCT0Q

The animation itself may be a bit stiff, but the direction and the way it is told I find pretty damn well done.

Not bad... I might have to ammend that list I made earlier. I still think that it feels like it could be better, but any improvements wouldn't change how well it works within the timeframe.

[Meloncov]

Not bad... I might have to ammend that list I made earlier. I still think that it feels like it could be better, but any improvements wouldn't change how well it can work within the timeframe.

I wouldn't call that the best Baginski. Fallen Art and The Cathedral are better, though somewhat longer.

Kiwi is another example of a short and simple dramatic animation, though there is a certain dark humor to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdUUx5FdySs

[Peter Coene]

Kiwi is another example of a short and simple dramatic animation, though there is a certain dark humor to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdUUx5FdySs
yeah, though I don't think the dark humor was intended. The story about a character that yearns for something so much that they would let their dieing act be an attempt at acheiving a simulation of it is touching in a melancholy sory of way. Interestingly the structure of how it is told follows a typical humor story structure (currious buildup, reveal, cut to black, punchline) however, the punchline is sad instead of funny, which changes the entire dynamic of the piece. Also the music is what would be expected for humor (trombone or tuba, not sure which) and the visual elements suggest humor as well (cartoon creaure wearing aviation cap, absurd situation, etc) but somehow these elements do not entirely change the film into a satire. Alltogether it is really well done, sending a powerful message while avoiding any heavy-handedness whatsoever.

[HunterKiller_]

Firstly, thanks very much everybody for the kind responses. :)

A point which I should have explained earlier.
The process of story creation went like this:
Each student from the class had a limited amount of time to gather up one or two stories, which they presented to the class.
The tutors made summaries of the ideas and listed them.
We were then put into the chosen groups, and as a group, choose an idea from the list.

In other words, there's no opportunity to develop a new concept.


I'm gonna try to reply to some points.

I was lucky enough to be in the last class at my school to allow solo thesis projects. After us, they're forcing group projects on everyone. And the reason they're doing it, is definitely because they feel the final films will be better, and get more recognition for the school.

You and I are in almost the same boat, my friend.
Our year is the lucky first bunch of guinea pigs to go through the group project.

The general manager also liked to go on about how awesome Goblines is because they have group projects, lol.
No, they're awesome because they have awesome teachers and doesn't accept bums off the street. Nothing in the history of our school could be a match.

I can understand where the « don’t like sci-fi” stuff is coming from. Some people have a hard time with clean lines and rigid models. It forces you to have your perspective down and sense of stylisation sharp.

Well the thing is, style hasn't even started to be developed. I don't agree that sci-fi automatically equals clean lines and rigid models.
The said group member basically rejected the story on the fact that the word 'sci-fi' is it's description.

BTW, scifi is not an "original and experimental concept."

No it's not. If I did get to do an original and experimental animation then this rant would not exist.
We could only choose from a list a stories that were presented by individuals from the class.

Space Chimp: Interesting short film. Thanks.

[Vhan Juju]

Google "Ego" or youtube it, that animation is one of the best I have seen in a really long time and you GOTTA see it..

[Peter Coene]

Space Chimp: Interesting short film. Thanks.
I can see how it could be, though I notice that the overridng concept seems to be humor, which you showed disdain for. Not that it has to be... but I mean, come on.... you have an animal with a form that looks like a weird twisted human known for eating/throwing its own poop, masturbating in front of whoever happens to be there, and other crude displays often including bodily functions floating in zero G's. It just sounds like a humor setup to me.

[Cthogua]

The thing about even Undo, and the other animations mentioned is that while being shorts, they were still done by a team of more than 4 people. The unfortunate thing about school projects is the deadline and the number of people involved are a huge limit to scope. Its already been said but complex stories just don't work on that timescale and are usually only "complex" to the person who came up with it anyway.

One persons work I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet that I like quite a bit is Yannick Puig. I think his Krapooyo and "I lived on the moon" animations are quite good, and tell a simple, but captivating story in a short amount of time with limited resources. Even 'I lived on the moon" with its extra sets manages them by making them look like 2D cut outs and paper puppets. This saves time and energy trying to create some hyperreal world AND adds a ton of really nice style to the work.

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There used to be a version of the Krapooyo animation that had a Shpongle song set to it that I actually liked more than this one, but I think its been taken down.

Meeh...but what do I know, I'm just a wannabe concept artist in an environment artist's body

[HunterKiller_]

Oh wow, those are beautiful short films.

[kingshaj]

it sounds like your classmates and anim. faculty are behind the popcultural curve...on this one... out of touch with their audience(s) at any rate.

schools often look backward (I. E. experience) ...while students should look to what's just up ahead .

the best thing you can learn form this project is, how to work with people with whom you disagree fundamentally...its way harder than animating..but still very doable. and most likely that's the real reason it is on the syllabus

[Meloncov]

The thing about even Undo, and the other animations mentioned is that while being shorts, they were still done by a team of more than 4 people. The unfortunate thing about school projects is the deadline and the number of people involved are a huge limit to scope. Its already been said but complex stories just don't work on that timescale and are usually only "complex" to the person who came up with it anyway.


Kiwi! was a school project completed by one person (two, if you count the guy who provided the clouds for him), and The Cathedral only had one person working on the visual elements.

[Costau D]

The reason I chose undo is because it's one of baginskis films that tells a coherent story. Fallen Art and Cathedral were great in their own way, but mainly surrealist show peices. Well, I dunno fallen art probably had a bit of an impact based on the military.

[Meloncov]

The reason I chose undo is because it's one of baginskis films that tells a coherent story. Fallen Art and Cathedral were great in their own way, but mainly surrealist show peices. Well, I dunno fallen art probably had a bit of an impact based on the military.

I think fallen art has a pretty clearly has a story, albeit a rather bizzare one. You have the rising action of the creation of the video, climax at the dance, and falling action as you watch the fat guy's response.
The Cathedral clearly a story as well, though you'll have a tough time finding two people who agree on exactly what it is/why things happen.