Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)

[MindCandyMan]

Okay guys...here is a short demo on how to do a Bargue Drawing...I will relay the info as it was relayed to me...I will break it down into steps.

Materials Needed: 2H pencil (trust me you will need it this light...you will do a LOT of correcting)...kneaded eraser...staedtler plastic eraser...thread...drawing paper...drawing board...ruler.



1.) Find a good drawing...one that is simple and one that you can print out fairly large...like the one I have shown below. Now the drawing needs to be really really clean...like the one below...the goal here is ultimate precision and ultimate perfection. You will spend weeks on this trust me.

2.) Print out the drawing (make sure the print out is of exceptional quality so you can see all the details exactly as they are) ...then tape the print out to your drawing board...make sure to tape it down good so it won't move. Then put your paper right up against it to the right or the left (If you are lefthanded) and tape your paper there as well.

3.) Next is a very important step...take a piece of black thread and place it like a plumb line over the printed out drawing...you should place it vertically not horizontally. Be really particular about this...measure the distance to the thread from the top leftmost part of the paper...and make sure at the bottom leftmost part of the paper the thread is the same distance...this will ensure that it is going STRAIGHT down. Make sure to tape the thread down on both sides as you go because you don't want the plumb line to move at all once you place it there. Next...measure the same way with your drawing paper only this time don't use a thread...actually draw a plumb line very very lightly with pencil down the paper...make sure it is perfectly straight down...just as your thread is. (Look at my drawing so far to see what I mean)

4.)Now you can start the drawing...start by taking another piece of thread to use as your measuring tool (use the ruler for all the thread laying measurements...etc...but use the thread when you are drawing it trains your eye better...using a ruler while you are doing the drawing will hurt you in the end...only use it if you are totally stuck or if you really need to check your measurement). Ok so once you have your piece of thread...lay it horizontally on the paper and find the top most part of the drawing...measure horizontally over and mark the same spot on your drawing paper...do the same for the bottom most point of the drawing and then do that eventually for the whole drawing...

5.) The object is PERFECTION...you do the whole drawing in this way but I will emphasize that it needs to be PERFECT...every angle perfectly right...every line exactly the same...when the shading sets in it has to be the exact value...EXACT...feel free to post in the middle class and I will help critique as best I can to point out the flaws.

Now here is my drawing so far...I will post the finished version as soon as I can!

http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue drawing 1 step 1.jpg

[MindCandyMan]

Glad you guys are interested in doing it! It is very very helpful...especially for those starting out. Just make sure not to press too hard and post it up here next to the original so we can all help critique...I've been working on mine at the studio for about 9-10 days or so and I am about a week away from being finished...a week or so...so it takes a lot of work and a LOT of correction...but it really trains your eye to draw from life and it also really really teaches you to control your lines...I can't wait to see your drawings...I will do what I can to help you along in the process...be ready to keep correcting till your brain splits....it has to be PERFECT!

[MindCandyMan]

Shehaub - Great drawings! Yeah this is definitely really really hard. I really like the first one..excellent work!

Cashmere - That is a great bargue drawing!!! Definitely use that one. If it's big enough to be able to use...definitely use that one it is great!


Ok everybody here is a little more explanation of what I meant concerning the bargue drawings...

http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue drawing explained.jpg

Ok the important things you want to keep in mind are that you ONLY want to use a ruler to check your own measurements...use a ruler to check and see if your measurements with the thread are correct...they will be incorrect alot don't worry about it.


Also leave more space between your own drawing and the real drawing...you don't want them running into each other like the set of durer drawings I have above...leave enough space for the whole thing to fit on both sides.
As you can see there is a plumb line down the center of each drawing...the one on the left will be a taped down piece of thread...and the one on the right (your drawing) will be a line that you draw.

You use your thread to measure various distances...you use your thread to measure how far the end of the nose is from the plumb line to the left...etc...you also make sure that the chins are at the same place horizontally...etc.... Take a look at this example and imagine the colored lines to be a thread and that is exactly what you do. One more tip when you measure with the thread wrap it around your fingers first so that it is nice and tight...you don't want the distance changing when you go from the real drawing to yours....be very careful and very exact when doing that...I can't wait to see your drawings!

[MindCandyMan]

Post it up Cashmere...chances are you aren't done the outline hehe...I just finished my first one today...I will post tomorrow!...it took me 3 weeks. Actually if you want send me a high rez version by email (with the original as a reference) or post it up here if you feel comfortable. I am so happy to see that you are doing this...it will help beyond what you even think!



For everyone that is looking for a bargue drawing here is one that I think would be really good...remember when shading in values that on your bargue drawings go for perceived value don't go for the exact type of stroke that the original artist made...for instance...don't be real sketchy like in this sargent if you use it...but make the values consistent.

www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/s/SARGENT_John_Singer/Sargent_Studies_of_Aphrodite.jpg
(Copy and paste the link.)

This drawing will print out very large so you can set it up on your drawingboard easily like mine was set up...try it out guys let's see some bargues! After you do 3 bargue drawings I will teach everyone how to do cast drawings step by step!

[Shehaub]

Something I would just like to add to help with this is a mirror. Its very hard to explain how to use the mirror to compare your drawing to the Bargue, but I will give it a stab.

Hold a small mirror (we use locker mirrors in class) up to one eye and aim it at the bargue so that you see it with your periphial vision. Look at your drawing. Move the mirror back and forth as if it is hinged to your nose/forehead and see if you can "move the bargue" next to your own drawing. In the case of the back drawing MCM is doing, it would appear that the left shoulder of the drawing is touching the left shoulder of the Bargue. The mirror reverses the image you are pointing it at so that the two come together like this: >< I encourage you to play with this a little. The mirror is used for a lot more than just bargues and IF you get it, and understand how to use it, it can really be a great tool to figure out what is wrong. For some reason the eye seems to compare them much better back to back, so to speak than it does trying to bring an angle over.


The other thing we do in class is a lot easier to understand. Unveiling. Take a piece of paper that is large enough to cover both drawings side by side and little by little bring it down to show just a little bit of the drawing at a time. Compare and fix. Repeat. If you are getting toward the bottom and your eye just isnt catching the mistakes, take another paper and block out the top, or turn the whole drawing board upsidedown and start from the drawings bottom.

I T/A at the museaum and a lot of folks there believe I am telling them to cheat, but the one of the real points of doing the bargue drawings is to begin to train the eye to see what is really there and not what is believed to be there. If using a mirror or a large piece of paper is what it takes to convince your brain that its putting too much into what you see, then use it.

Other tips:
Draw lightly at first until you are sure that the line you have drawn is correct. You will be erasing a lot. Thats expected.

Before you begin shading, locate your lightest light area and your darkest dark. Get those at least set in your mind, if not on your paper. That way, as you shade, you can compare and figure out just how far you have to go down (dark) or come up (light)

Shadows have their own distinct shapes. Some have more crisp edges. Try to think of the shadow areas as flat shapes at first and then go in and darken the areas to push down the deepest darks.

It took me several weeks each to finish both of my bargue drawings. I was fortunate enough to have an instructor behind my back watching and guiding me through it.

[MindCandyMan]

excellent excellent advice!! Everything shehaub typed is exactly right...thanks shehaub!

[MindCandyMan]

Here is my finished drawing...it definitely isn't perfect but I will do better next time...there are some measuring errors in this that I didn't catch till the very end..Hans won't be so lenient next time hehe.

http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue drawing 1 final side.jpg


http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue drawing 1 final.jpg

[Cashmere]

MindCandyMan, that is a great work!!
Bargue drawing is REALLY difficult to do...but I can see that yours is perfect!
How many hours a day did you spend working on it?

Ok, this is my work in progress:
I hope to stay alive after 3 Bargue drawings :D

Original (http://digilander.libero.it/tuttobianco/Cash-Bargue-Original.jpg) and my outline (http://digilander.libero.it/tuttobianco/Cash-Bargue-my-outline.jpg) (the line is very soft)
Definitely I'm using the eraser more than the pencil...


Shehaub, thanks for the advice !

[Shehaub]

Just came back to check on this thread. Cashmere, hows that bargue comming along? Would love to see it side by side if possible. Your outline looks ok alone, but hard to compare accuracy all alone. The one suggestion I do have is to keep that pencil as sharp as possible.

MCM - Beautiful work! Your handling of the pencil really stands out in those tones. I wish I could see this in real life. Graphite is truly its best as an "eyes on" experience, much like oil paintings. Is your measuring error on the base? Just guessing. I don't ask so much to crit as I do to fine tune my own skills.

We have that Bargue at school. Not sure if I am going to do that one next, or one of the babies. I could really benefit from a back study. There are two baby heads that would work for Christmas gifts for relatives. Bonus! I am required to do 3 to complete the bargue studies portion of my course.

[MindCandyMan]

Cashmere - Yeah where's your bargue drawing!!!!! I wanna see it!

Shehaub - Thanks for the comments. One of the errors is in the base definitely...it's actually that right buttcheek and down into the base...that corner is off by about 1.5 millimeters...annoying...but it was too much to go back and change. That's very perceptive of you I'm impressed! I can't wait to see your bargue!



I forgot to post the progress on my second bargue! Here it is:

http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue drawing 2 step 1.jpg

[Cashmere]

Shehaub, I keep the pencil as sharp as possible but my question is: can I do a really black tone using only a 2H pencil?

MindCandyMan, check the chin, it has a strange angle.
I noticed that you start drawing the middle tones and then the dark areas. Is that the right way to work? For instance: in my bargue, can I put some dark areas at the top of the body and then to finish the rest?

Signature, I become mad drawing and erasing, specially erasing...and measuring and drawing... and erasing... :) But after this, I see the objects around me in another way... they look more definite.
Your bargue (as mine) need of more measurements. You choose an hard copy! eheh

Work in progress:

http://digilander.libero.it/tuttobianco/Cash-0002bargueS.jpg (http://digilander.libero.it/tuttobianco/Cash-0002bargue.jpg)
click image for large version

[Shehaub]

We use hb's at the atelier. A true 2H is really not going to give you the dark that you are going to want to get with this bargue in particular, IMHO. HB's are not that hard to locate. You usually don't even have to go to an art supply store. I bought my last one at Walmart. Papermate American. Cheap as can be! It says 2 on it, but there is a small HB on it that shows the actual hardness. I have just switched to a mechanical with HB lead. Will let you know how that works out. :)

The way that MindCandyMan is working is exactly how I was instructed to do these. Get your basic shadow shapes put in. Squint down and locate your distinct shadow shapes. After you have your big shapes put in, you can push a little deeper and make the cast shadows nice and dark.

As you are shading, there are some tricks I want to pass on. You can use a kneaded ereaser as a hatching tool to bring up the values of a particular area. You can also glaze. Glazing is really just using a uniform pressure in multiple directions to get a uniform tone.

From what I see, you have a great start going on. Try to think in terms of "I know this area is at least this dark" and then work darker as you need to. Compare values as you work. Is the upper neck and chest area as light as that light on the right hip? Is the shadow in that armpit area on the right as dark as the shadow area on that right leg? Those kinds of comparing keep your values in check. They also get you to start really seeing what you are looking at. The first real dark I would put in would be what I decided was my absolute darkest. That is almost always going to be a cast shadow. Once you have your lightest light and your darkest dark, the rest is all going to be in between.

Signature, are you working on this with the image printed out and directly beside your drawing? I am horrible about having to see them side by side in order to really see where it might need help. With that disclaimer, I am going to take a stab at this and just tell you that you might want to double check the angles or width of the nose area on the right side. There is something about that area that I cannot exactly pinpoint. The next thing that I noticed is that perhaps the ear on your drawing is not in the same place as the ear on the original? I think yours might be a little low. Is the distance between the lower lip and the end of the crease in his neck on your drawing the same as the distance in the image? Again, this is just guesswork. I really like that you have your general shadow shapes in before you actually started shading. That is going to save a lot of time and frustration in the long run. There are some really nice shadow shapes to work with on the image you have chosen.

Its pretty exciting to see so many people tackle this challenge. MCM are you in an atelier program? Or are you just taking on this challenge for the sake of learning?

[Shehaub]

Signature, if you don't make a mistake, your kind of missing the whole point of doing this excercise, so maybe you are more on track than you are giving yourself credit. By correcting the mistakes you make, you are training your eyes to really see. Please continue to work on this.

When measuring angles, the easiest way to do this is to start at the top and measure from your vertical plumbline. Then measure from the horizontal line. Make a dot. Do the same for the end of the line you want to make. Now you have a dot for the start and end of your line. Draw.. tada! The dot to dot method also works on tough curves that you might struggle with.

If it were me, I would toss a temporary horizontal line right under the edge of those glasses. Draw it right across both images in one nonstop, but very light line. Then I would use that to measure all my vertical distances. (From the line to the bottom edge of the eye, the eye lid, the chin, the top of the lip the bottom of the nose, the wrinkle in the neck tope edge of the ear, bottom edge of the ear etc.) Your plumbline is in a great place, but you could also put another vertical line using the dot to dot method above on the left edge of his face to help see and measure those leftmost angles. Look at the negative space on that side. You might want to do that on the right hand side as well. Remember there is no such thing as cheating on these things unless you actually trace it. Three little lines to measure from might really help to correct a lot.

Above all, do not let yourself get discouraged. I am not convinced that this should end up in the sketchbook thread. Finding where you went wrong in this one drawing could be the breakthrough you need to stop bad habits. Are you habitually too wide/narrow/short/long? It really shows when doing these bargues and it is so easily corrected when you force yourself to see those distances and angles for what they really are. Please continue. The struggle IS the assignment. Your are doing a lot better than you are giving yourself credit. I have seen many starts that looked much worse than this. I believe my name was on one of them.

When I did my first bargue, nearly everything I tried to draw was too wide. I had no idea how often I tended to make everything so much wider than they really were. To some extent, I still do that but I have learned that about myself and I am able to keep that in check much better today than in Feb when I first tried a bargue drawing. That discovery has made a world of difference on todays life drawings! Its not something that someone can tell you because its retraining the eye to see and only you can do that.

I hope this helps and I will be checking to see how its going for you. Get that battery charged!

[Signature]

I thought it is a good idea to stop because erasing doesn't work here any more.
I'm still looking at the image and trying to figure out what went wrong.

Right now I'm thinking that it's not only the outline of the face ...
that just the bottom left outline part is wrong.

I think the features are scaled wrong ... and that is the biggest problem.
That part is somehow stretched vertically ... a lot!

Thanks for your long reply. It helped with my motivation! :)

[MindCandyMan]

signature - Use a ruler if you have to...not only measure from the plumb line to the outer edge but also from one side to the other...you would think they would meet up if you have both sides "right" but often times they don't...that's what happened on my first bargue drawing. Doing these drawings teaches you a really valuable lesson as well...not to be precious about your drawing...if it's wrong...erase that portion and correct it but be careful and analyze while you do that because sometimes only a subtle change will be needed...sometimes an overhaul is needed...don't rush to the overhaul though...analyze it and see what needs to be done. What is happening to you is what EXACTLY happened to me my first 3 weeks at the studio...since I pushed through that first stage I understand things a lot more keep it up!


Cashmere - Sorry it's so late I have been wanting to respond about your bargue. I will make it a lesson for everyone considering I made all the exact same mistakes.



Ok everyone listen up...I am giving a critique to Cashmere...but this applies to everyone...even myself on my current bargue drawing...not only do the measurements have to be right but all the angles and all the shapes that the angles create...THE NEGATIVE SHAPES...everyone needs to pay attention to the negative shapes that the lines they lay down are creating. Cashmere I darkened the contrast on your pic so we could see the lines...glad you did them lightly...you will be erasing ;) ...Check it out...what I did in photoshop was outline one side and then copy and paste to the other side the exact same line that I put down in photoshop to show the inconsistencies....all the angles need to be revisited and made correct all the while making sure they still measure correctly...this is how people can draw the figure well...they can do all this in their head and subconsciously after doing it so many times...don't be afraid to erase Cashmere...I almost wore my paper down on my first bargue...I had to use the razor to get rid of pencil ghosts in a lot of areas haha.

Click HERE (http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue%20update.jpg) to see the partially corrected version. This is where the rubber meets the road boys...kick it into high gear Cashmere........ahhhhhhh....I can feel you getting better already....I can imagine you looking at this thread and starting to understand......I like that feeling :chug:


Another thing that helps I think...is imagining the negative space shapes as animals or heads or something you can visualize...it helps keep it interesting too. Lemme know if that makes sense or not.

[Cashmere]

This is fantastic, MindCandyMan! Now I can see where I wrong and I'm very happy to see that top line is right!
Ok, I'll try to fix any angle...or better I MUST to fix all the angles (Not "to try" but "to do" :D)
This week I'll post an update.
Imagining the negative shapes as objects is interesting... my drawing is becoming a forest full of lions, monkey heads..and 1 snail eheh. It's simple but it works.

Shehaub, thanks for the advice, specially for this !! :

When measuring angles, the easiest way to do this is to start at the top and measure from your vertical plumbline. Then measure from the horizontal line. Make a dot. Do the same for the end of the line you want to make. Now you have a dot for the start and end of your line. Draw.. tada! The dot to dot method also works on tough curves that you might struggle with.

[MindCandyMan]

Also keep in mind Cashmere that the quality of the line has to be the same as well...if one line is a bit thicker...etc...that should be considered as well. I'm so glad you have such a good attitude about this...it teaches you so so much but so many people think it's a waste...IT ISN'T!!!...especially if you are just starting out. I can't wait to see the update! You will find you will grow tremendously as an artist through this process!

[Cashmere]

I'm working on the top left part of the drawing.
I added the values because I'm too curious to see how it will be... :p

http://digilander.libero.it/tuttobianco/Cash-0003bargue.jpg

mmm...:rolleyes: now I note that the "head" is not the same... ok, it will must be perfect :D

[MindCandyMan]

Good job Cashmere...yeah keep tweaking it...look at the negative shape to the left of the neck as well...that doesn't line up. Also see that line/hook type thing of shading that comes underneath the neck...yours looks different than the original. Don't go too far with the shading...sometimes it's hard to go back...what you have done looks fine for now though...you shouldn't have to change the shapes too much. Keep it up you are learning exactly what I am learning!!!

[endregan]

another question. where do i get the thread? O_O lol
does it matter how thick or what colour

[MindCandyMan]

Nah the thread doesn't matter...black is the easiest to see against white paper though...just don't get white hehe. You can try downloading a picture from the internet and putting it on disk and getting it printed out at a local print shop type place like kinko's or something like that. Not sure what Canada has for those type of stores hehe.

[endregan]

Here it is. hours of work, erasing and erasing and linework ugh! It was frustrating at times but it was fun too.

Only thing I can see now is minor touches and how the heck do I shade with a 2H pencil!!! :)

hope you dont mind me doing same one cash!!

one thing i found- this had too many details but shapes are shapes !!

i would do a more simple drawing next, and my printer quality is not that great, but i got the most of it, just not some details..
http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/nov15/barguefinalsmall.jpg

[Shehaub]

endregan - You can keep that 2h pencil handy for glazing over and getting the subtle halftones, but your going to have to knock it down a notch to an HB to get any real darks. I am not sure what kind of stores there are there, but I get mine from Walmart in the office supply area. They are pretty cheap and chances are, if you look around, you might even have one around the house. I steal mine from the school supplies for my kids.

When I shade, its usually a lot of layers. I like to fill an area going in one direction first and then go over it in another direction. I repeat this process until it looks unified. Keep a really sharp point on your pencil at all times and make sure you are on the point as you do your hatching. This ensures that you don't get that "smudgy" look. (I am guilty of that error a lot. My instructor is always asking me when I sharpened my pencil last.)

You have a great start on this. I am drawn to that bright spot to the right of his hip that looks like fingers. It could be just me, but the angle or shape on that looks just slightly off. The top of the neck has some bumpy areas that will need to be added, but the general shape looks correct. Double check the placement of bottom left corner of the base. It might be a little low. Having said this, I haven't measured this out in PS or anything to double check my own observations, it is just something that I am eyeballing. I could be wrong.

Of all the bargue drawings I have seen, this and the one similar to this with the head seem to have the most complicated puzzle piece type shapes. You and Cashmere are pulling this off sooooooo nicely. Amazing work! I think its awesome the way you are both tackling this with such a vigor. Your energy is addicting!

[endregan]

I think im pretty much done.

Suggestion for first timers - choose something more simple!

I was off the slightest bit in some places and it put it off just enough that its not noticable when you first see it. i changed the torso 3 times and it was really hard..at first my version wider than it should of been.

I know its not perfect but this was a great exercise to train my eye...



http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/nov16/bargue2.jpg

[MindCandyMan]

I would say you don't have to make it as dark as the printed out version but you definitely need to achieve the proper relationships between the values...for instance...the darkest darks need to be the darkest darks on yours. Also you need to revisit the shapes and do a lot of erasing. The big negative shapes on the whole left side do not match up with the original drawing. Just look back and forth quickly at the negative shapes and you will see them "shift" and get smaller. Also the torso on your drawing is significantly smaller than the original drawing...it does not have the same outward thrust to the right that the original has. A lot of the angles and line quality is different as well. It's virtually impossible to do a true bargue in a day. Perfection is what teaches you the lesson. You need to learn to slow down and perceive every angle and to acurately render each "shape" you see. Keep at it this is a great start.

[Signature]

Don't take it personally.
He wrote You will spend weeks on this trust meIf you work on the drawing for too long you don't see the errors you make properly.
You have to take breaks and come back to the drawing.
MindCandyMan pointed out what errors there are.
The goal is perfection ... as he wrote.
There's a lot of information in this thread.
I'd read the advice Cashmere got again.

I'd be interested in the originals of MindCandyMan's drawings too.
They are great.

[endregan]

yeah I guess i got frustrated we all do that sometimes

i will see what else i can add to it! ill try and see better... :)

oh and jon i was wondering where i could get a more simple bargue to do that will allow me to start with simple shapes first....this one is a bit much to begin with

[Cashmere]

Endregan, I was tempted to tear my bargue, I wanted to finish it as soon as possible. I never worked on a drawing so long...but day after day it is become a challenge: me Vs me. Cash Vs Cash.
Today I am maybe at 20% of work but I want to finish it. One week, one month, one year.. (no.., one year no :p) but I want to finish it. And it must be PERFECT!
However,...(I don't know why), now I am glad when I find an error on my bargue..I don't know why. Maybe because now I reach to find errors while I'm drawing, maybe because now my target isn't finishing the drawing in an hour...
I was tempted to tear my bargue!!! :D

[MindCandyMan]

Don't take it personally.

Absolutely right...nothing personal...just art. Ok just to go along with everyone...I just finished my 2nd bargue tonight...I officially HATE IT...but I have learned a whole lot through it. Seriously though...if you want to draw from the figure...etc...anything from life or not the kind of precision used on the bargue drawing is exactly the precision your brain has to get used to when drawing from life. When I first looked at these professionals I thought...wow they just draw so quickly and fluidly...and of course I would try and it was awful. What I realized (am realizing) is that they are way far beyond where I am now in terms of their brain. They have worked so hard on the fundamentals that it has become 2nd nature in their brain. Think of it this way...a guitarist has to learn his scales before he can play a solo...being emotional in a solo is the last step in the learning process...only when you can find the right notes (without thinking) can you be free to sing with your guitar. Same with art...these are our scales...we must practice them and get our foundation first. It sucks I know and it's crazy boring. Ok let's be honest...REALLY boring. But it's necessary so we can draw dragons...etc... later. Jack you are hitting a point where your skills are starting to develop more...I see more signs of growth now than I have ever seen before. My crit was to keep you going and help you ride this growth spurt as far as it will go. If you keep pushing through it Cashmere is right...you actually enjoy making it perfect...it gets fun...but sometimes...like me with mine now...it's getting boring...but it's just in time for me to start my third one hehe.

I will definitely post some high res versions of my drawings...I just need to scan them in.

[endregan]

Yeah cashmere i was happy at times to catch my errors and fix it, but after this far there are some sublties i dont see or see but dont want to change because i would have to reconstruct the whole thing, but ill definitly give it another shot!

MCM: thanks man i will try and finish this one to the best of my abilitiy. if you have any high res of the original pic that you started from id like to try that, or something more simpler in form. where do you get the drawings?

also about my growth, i see i am beginning to see more, but i hit a point where i go to draw from my imagination and i dont have enough studies on the body to even begin to try and draw the body like i want to. should i just stay with the head and torso with arms, or should i try the whole thing ? ive also been drawing from life a lot and practicing hatching, its quite fun and being inspired from wes9000 sketches :)

well off to my bargue

[MindCandyMan]

honestly endregan you or I really shouldn't be drawing from our imagination at all right...at least in a minimal way. This is my opinion and some may disagree but it's like a new student of guitar trying to write his own songs...they will come out contrived and lame. Don't worry about drawing from your head at this point...it's too much to expect. If we can't draw correctly from life when it is right in front of us...how can we do it from our head? Draw from life build up your skills of how to see...all the while learning anatomy...doing studies to help understand things...etc...


but after this far there are some sublties i dont see or see but dont want to change because i would have to reconstruct the whole thing

Exactly...that's the point of the bargue...you lay down some lines and then have to put them down all over again. Doing so teaches you to maintain proper proportional relationships. There comes a point in time where you will learn more actually by moving on but you are definitely not at that point yet. Keep reworking the drawing...patience ;)

[Pencil Soldier]

ehh...what exactly is a bargue drawing?

[MindCandyMan]

In short it's an exact copy of a master's drawing...read through this thread and you will see.

[Pencil Soldier]

How does that make this diffeent from the Master Study thread?

Sorry if im being annoying, im just trying to figure this out. :p

[MindCandyMan]

endregan - It's already framed so it's kind of a hassle to get it out and scan it again...try this in the meantime though...it's a sargent drawing and it's really high res:

http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/s/SARGENT_John_Singer/Sargent_Studies_of_Aphrodite.jpg


Copy and paste this link into your browser...delete the http:// and then press enter...that will print out beautiful and is a great one...plus it's cool to copy sargent ;)



pencil soldier - No worries it's not annoying I can definitely see how it seems the same thing. The difference is in the technique used. The term bargue comes from Charles Bargue...because he was the pioneer of this technique if I'm not mistaken. He created some drawings of sculpture that his students copied in this manner...thus a "Bargue" drawing. If you do an exact copy of a master's drawing I guess there isn't much difference except the technique employed to get the end result. Bargue drawings have a specific technique to train your eye to draw from life (and other positive byproducts come as well)...at any rate I hope that answers your question.



2nd bargue done:


http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue%20drawing%202%20final.jpg

[endregan]

awesome one jon!!

well i was wondering since on the first one you copied from a master, that you would have the master copy online or its available somewhere?

the sargent one looks good too!

i notice the paper you use is a lot rougher than what im using. im just using printer paper :P. so when i press too hard it really shows (and stays).

they frame for free?! hehe

also, you do this on a table am i right?

btw hows the bakery going!

[Elwell]

A book of the complete series of Bargue's original plates (plus additional drawings) is now available through the Dahesh Museum (http://www.daheshmuseum.org/). For more info, check this (http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?threadid=3480) out.

[MindCandyMan]

that's awesome elwell...thanks so much!


endregan - I use a drawing board and tape them on there side by side. I am using the drawings that my teachers did...I am working from copies of their drawings. They did this at the florence academy of art but they don't have the originals...but using their drawings is the same thing. You wouldn't think it would be too fun to get up early and make bread but I really am enjoying it...it's a fun environment and everyone is relaxed there.

[MindCandyMan]

Sorry for the much delayed response...I didn't see my email reminder for this thread...sorry about that!

bio - This is the atelier that I currently go to Pantura Studios (http://www.panturastudios.com) ...the charcoal drawings you saw were most likely charcoal but the first steps at that atelier are copying another actual drawing with pencil (unless they've changed things.) Much similar to the one that you posted that you have done! A master is exactly what you said...also a master could be an extremely skilled artist still alive...masters tend to get their status after they are dead though hehe...ironically. Basically the reason they call them Bargue drawings is because of Charles Bargue who did a series of drawings that students used. Check it out here (http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?threadid=3480) You can read all about the book of Bargue drawings that just came out...great stuff!

Rash Overdrive - That is not a very unsuccessful bargue drawing...the fact that you can see that the arm is way off shows that it indeed was a success!!!! Definitely do another...this looks great for your first one. My first one had some pretty big problems hard to resolve as well. Keep it up...seeing is the main goal of a bargue...training your eye to see all the defects your drawing has...seeing the wrong things with your drawings and figuring out how to fix them is the success of a bargue...so well done!!

winjer - That's awesome! Wow...wish I still lived in philly :(


My third and final bargue drawing...I do a charcoal drawing copy and then on to casts...woohoo!!!



http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue drawing 3 final.jpg

[spork891]

Originally posted by bio
yes, that's one thing i can't figure out with these "classical" artworks. does the golden proportions reduce the penis to something really short? like the bargue i posted above, as well as Michaelangelo's David all have a really short penises.
The models I draw from in any figure/life drawing session generally have larger ones. it's baffling and i have never been able to figure it out.... :confused:

The reason is simple, the greeks thought that large penises were ugly, so they changed them.

[Edit] I'm actually not sure on the bit about the greeks specifically, it could be true for other periods and peoples, I am sure about the reason however.

Well I must admit I was skeptical after reading the first few posts to this thread, but now I have read the entire thing and intend to start my own Bargue drawing.

Still a tad confused on something though: Do you ever move the thread on the original, or is it stationary; your only reference point?

[MindCandyMan]

glad to see you came around spork hehe...I know it sounds stupid...copying something exactly...it feels at first like there is no value to it...but trust me it teaches a whole lot...it teaches not only how to get the proper contour and how much that means to a drawing...but it also teaches how to shade and create smooth transitions...etc... You will be glad you did it!

The only time I moved my thread on the original was when I was just about done and it was getting in the way of seeing the tones underneath. That should stay there for 95% of your drawing though. Have fun...can't wait to see it!

[jules12]

For our first Bargue drawing, the thread is stationary the whole time pretty much. But for the successive ones, we are not allowed to tape down the thread as a plumb line. We had to "memorize" the top and bottom points where the plumb line goes through and place the thread there everytime we need to make a measurement. This makes it even harder. The argument to do it this way is that when we move on to casts, we won't be able to tape down a plumb line...

The most important part is to get the measurement and shapes right in the beginning. You can take big diagonal measurements to check your drawing. I.e., for the torso drawing, measure the distance between tip of right arm to the bottom of the left thigh. Once you get that all right, it's just rendering/modeling.

Angel Academy is good... the teachers are really strict. There were students who took the whole trimester to finish one Bargue drawing!

[MindCandyMan]

that's really interesting about the thread thing jules...that would make it a whole lot harder!


Everyone listen up...this is wise advice:

The most important part is to get the measurement and shapes right in the beginning. You can take big diagonal measurements to check your drawing. I.e., for the torso drawing, measure the distance between tip of right arm to the bottom of the left thigh. Once you get that all right, it's just rendering/modeling.


Thanks for jumping in this thread jules!

[spork891]

Well here is where I am after a whole day, I'm not too good at it yet, still getting the hang...

http://e.domaindlx.com/spork891/bargue01.jpg

This image host is awful so I just broke down and paid to get my images hosted elsewhere, no more red x's soon!

[DanaT]

Hi. I'm a new member that just found this thread from Wetcanvas. I just went to the Bargue exhibition today and bought the book. Lots of good stuff to work from.

Right now I'm doing the first exercises of the individual features of the face so it will be awhile until I get to the fully rendered torsos but I thought it would be fun to watch you guys until I get there and be able to ask some questions.

Two questions so far. Why aren't you using the horizontal line in the Bargue drawings? Where did you get the idea of a thread?

For the eyes I'm basically following the instructions in the front of the book that says to place the high point, low point, farthermost left and farthermost right point and construct a square around it then place the horizontal and vertical axis and plot the points.

How are you doing it differently?

[MindCandyMan]

DanaT - We are using those horizontal lines but when we are just about to finish the drawing we erase them so they don't show up anymore...but we use the plumb lines while plotting out the points. That's an interesting way to go about doing the bargue as well...constructing that square around it...I just measure from the plumb line outward. I also plotted the highest and lowest points as well. Our approaches seem very similar I would guess.

[John]

Hey MCM, i want to do a bargue drawing too. I already got the aphrodite study you suggested printed out, but i'm wondering about the horizontal line. Do you draw that onto both images? Do i erase the plumb lines before i start putting in the values? I'll just start now with only a vertical plumb line as you suggested first.

[MindCandyMan]

they aren't stupid questions at all...I never used a horizontal plumb line I just measure from the vertical line outward (horizontally) to get those points...that's the way that I have done it at least...at any rate...I would keep the plumb line in until the last possible moment that you can...if you need to judge a value in that areathen get rid of it but be careful you may need to refer to it later on. Have fun!

[John]

Thanks for clarifying these points MCM. I just think that figuring out stuff like that is part of the lesson. I'm really enjoying it, although it is really hard to do. I did contour studies for Nicolaides "The natural way to draw", those were mind numbing, but since that concentrating on the bargue is ok. I think that after doing a 5 hour contour study of my boring room (lots of straight lines), i can concentrate on anything when it comes to drawing.
I have some fingerprints on my bargue that i have a hard time getting rid of, i think it's printer ink since i hadn't fixed the printout at first. How can i remove those? You said you used a razor, how does that work?

[MindCandyMan]

What I did with the razor was lay the blade flat on the paper and slowly take off small layer by small layer till it is gone...don't lose patience or you could make big rip in your paper.



I think that after doing a 5 hour contour study of my boring room (lots of straight lines),


yeesh...sounds really boring wow...you have some patience!

[geronimo66]

anyone know where I can find some of the nice Ref pics you haves used here. I have looked a little though don't know what exactly to search. I would like to try this as it seems like a great way to develope precision and control.


Thanks

[John]

geronimo66:
http://www.artrenewal.org/.../Sargent_Studies_of_Aphrodite.jpg (http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/s/SARGENT_John_Singer/Sargent_Studies_of_Aphrodite.jpg)
This is the Aphrodite in high res.

http://www.artrenewal.org/
You can find many high resolution picture on this site, just browse for something you like :) Look under "Museum".

MCM:
It's not that bad really, it's split over a period of 5 exercises, so you don't do the 5 hours all at once :)

I go really slow with my bargue, spending hours on just one line. I also don't get to work on it every day, i think i'll need months to finish it. Doesn't really matter though, it's good to know what to practice when i have the time.

[Journeyman]

Some additional info about the Bargue copybook lithos that have been beautifully reprinted - (albeit, much smaller than the originals) - by the Dahesh Museum (www.daheshmuseum.org) Bargue. This is the site of the author of the book. http://www.geraldmackerman.com/ ). There are a few repros of some of the original Bargues to be found on that site. (A little less than a decade or so, I told a pal where he could find an incomplete set of the original set of large lithos - they were at a college somewhere in Ohio. He drove there and took some beautiful photos of many of them... and used to sell prints of the shots he took. One or two of his photos are better than a couple of the repros in the Dahesh reprint... but the Dahesh book has more repros - the complete set, and is very informative... and the pics are lovely. Should anyone live in Toronto, they'd do well to hook-up with this angelartacademy.com if their preference is to have fabulous instructors guide them through the Bargue drawings).

[Journeyman]

Shucks, you're most welcome. Check out some of Bargues lovely paintings, also reproduced on Ackerman's site. There are many other books that, when used in concert with each other, can help with one's approach to the Bargues. Books such as, "The Practice and Science of Drawing", by Harold Speed. (He was a late 19th Century-early 20th Century artist/educator/author who teaches out of the academic tradition (out of which such artists like Bouguereau, Gerome and Bargue grew). His two books - one on drawing and composition, the other book on academic painting - continue to be reprinted to this day, and can be found on amazon.com. Current picturemaker/teacher, Anthony Ryder has a book titled, "The Artist's Complete Guide to Figure Drawing" that's also available from amazon. The begining stages that he makes mention of are especially important to focus on. We sometimes rush to finesse a drawing (whether in line or in tone) before we've attended to the broader aspects that are the foudation of the drawing. Ryder and Speed touch on these most important foundational stages. Check with Angel Art academy ( www.angelartacademy.com ) because their step-by-step life drawing video might be available for sale - though I can't say for sure. That would be an extremely useful tool to have in your kitbag. There was also another 19th century tome, titled, "Drawing in Charcoal and Crayon" available now only in photocopied form from www.street-level.net/booklist. There's also another book by a fine 19th century painter named, (oddly enough) Solomon J. Solomon. It's a book almost entirely on academic and old master painting methods... but the first couple of chapters touches on some important drawing info. The Solomon book is available at that street-level address too... as well as other books of use. "Drawing on the right side of the brain" also touches on some important things. "How to draw comics the Marvel Way" also will trigger some important things with which to grapple. There was a fine article on drawing from casts that had some beautiful drawings shown step-by-step in (I think) the Artists mag of some years ago. (I leant mine out and will have to retrive it... at which point, I'll be able to post the exact info). There are tons of books and instructional aids, but some will, of course, be far better than others... but if you scavenge, you can sometimes find that you can at least glean one or two good morsels of info from even the lame books - Overall, if this is the kind of path one is interested in pursuing, I'd suggest getting a good grounding in the academic method of studying drawing from casts and life drawings - (like the kind of info provide in both Angel Academies - the one in Toronto, and the one in Florence Italy... there are academies in the US too) - and then once that method forms the roots and trunk of the tree of your approach, then supplement that info with books, videos and whatever other tools cross your path.

[Journeyman]

...oh, and IMPORTANTLY... study the heck out of the drawings of others that influence you the most... drawings from all eras, and all parts of the world. Pick from them, the things that you like, and that inspire your own vision. Treat the works of others like you would treat a banquet; choose from them, the things that fill your own plate. Tailor all info to suit your vision.

[endregan]

everyones look so nice!

been working on my next one:

http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/2004/mar12/bargue2.jpg


http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/2004/mar12/bargue1.jpg

[MindCandyMan]

hey endregan this bargue is looking good but you are far from being done hehe...I am just gonna list out the things that I see at first glance...you need to look more in depth at everything yourself...the camera DEFINITELY distorts so take a look at it yourself in real life and see if what I am saying holds up:

I will start from the top and work my way down:

-The hairline on the original fans out a lot more on the left than your drawing does also the right side of the hair "fades" into white (the paper) and yours is just a line.

-The jaw isn't constructed like it is on the original...the bottom left side of the jaw isn't right.

-the arm on the right that is being raised up (her left arm) is a little bit smaller than the one on the original drawing...if you look back and forth very quickly (starting with the original drawing) you will see it "shift"

-In general everything on your drawing from the bottom of the chin to the knees looks too low. What I mean by that is that it doesn't horizontally match up with the original drawing...look at the placement of the belly button and the breasts and you will see the horizontal difference.

-The hips on your drawing are much smaller and don't have the angle of the original drawing...they either need to come out further on the right side or the left...measure and make sure. I suspect the torso probably needs to come out further to the right because the negative space between the breasts looks much smaller on your drawing and also that would help solve the small arm problem on that side. Take a look at the left side of the hips as well...where the hips start on the left they have a horizontal angle that juts out first and then the angle is started...yours are missing that "jut out".

-The shape of the negative space between both ankles...(between the legs at the bottom...the negative shape that comes to a point facing upward) is not quite right. I think the plumb line may have been confusing for you in that area and the angle of the knee is a little off in that area.

-The legs (just like the hips) are much smaller on your drawing than on the original ...could be a camera distort measure it to make sure.



All these things could be affected by the camera...measure and make sure keep it up.

[endregan]

Did a LOT of work on it, but still have a LOT to do haha :)
http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/2004/mar16/bargue1.jpg

http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/2004/mar16/bargue2.jpg

From what I can see, the torso should come out more on the right side, and the plumb line is still throwing me off, but I should fix that leg/knee area

[dCepT]

Endregan: Nice work! But you're right in saying the torso should come out more on the right side. It looks as if she's kinda tensed up in your drawing. Pulled her shoulder in, kinda. I think the line that goes up to her right shoulder should slope more outwards.

Otherwise, as I said, good work!

keep posting.

d-C

[MindCandyMan]

Did a LOT of work on it, but still have a LOT to do haha


From what I can see, the torso should come out more on the right side, and the plumb line is still throwing me off, but I should fix that leg/knee area


These statements make me so happy dude...you are really learning to "see" and that is the goal with a bargue drawing (with the added benefit of learning from the original artist)...awesome man...keep plugging away...bargues are boring but what you are doing is at the root of all drawing from life...go go go!!!

[endregan]

http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/2004/mar19/bargue1.jpg

think the leg and torso is still off... just ever so slightly.

change one thing and you find something new! its exciting in a way..

Thanks jon for the encouragement., without you I wouldnt be doing these and moving on!

Peace! still have work to do hehe

[MindCandyMan]

looking good endregan...although I still think (unless it's the camera) that your upper torso and also the hips are a lot smaller on your drawing than they are on the original...what do you think? I tlooks as if everything is too skinny on yours...the legs as well...measure and lemme know what you think.

[endregan]

I dont think the legs are smaller. I will double check. It may be the camera, but its pretty close! It is tricky to the eye sometimes.

I think the torso is a bit off. I did a lot on it. It is getting closer.

I will double check to make sure, for sure.

Maybe I change one thing and it all falls into place ;)

[draw]

Hi, I am a new member, another lucky one to have found this sight. There aren't any ateliers in australia (to my knowledge).

here's a bargue I have done some in pencil
http://img71.photobucket.com/albums/v215/markfeiler2004/Picture_0908.jpg

[endregan]

http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/2004/apr3/bargue.jpg

the legs were too big haha. just took me time to realize..

still have to work on them a bit too.

man i wish i had more time to focus on art. I will have to keep myself on track somehow :)

[MindCandyMan]

jimithing - Definitely go to an atelier if you can...do anything to get there you will not regret it! And if you can't get there then do these bargue drawings/cast drawings and stuff on your own and we will critique you here on the boards. Glad to hear someone excited about these techniques they are awesome!

endregan - Now that is what I'm talkin about!!!!! That looks ten times better than before man...you are pushing forward and you are developing your eye! That's great. It's a little fuzzy so it's hard for me to tell some things but I think on your drawing (the one on the right) the hips need to come out a little more on the left...they stick out a little more on the original drawing...then evaluate the legs again...it may be playing a mental trick on you. If your drawing is the one on the left which it may well be then the hips and legs are still a bit too big...that's probably what you were talking about anyways heheh. At any rate the upper torso looks much much much better man! It looks great! The torso looks a little too wide and there are some other little things that are off but it's looking much much better. Keep it going man!

draw - That is really nice man! Post a larger version so we can critique you and help you out!

[jimithing_36]

hey Mind Candy MAn
where can i get copies of Bargue lithographs here in the net ?

[jimithing_36]

what kind of easel do u use for doing bargue drawings ?

how large do u think the copy should be ? im referring to the printed copy.( the size of the paper not drawing for the printed copy)

[MindCandyMan]

http://www.artrenewal.org/images/ar...f_Aphrodite.jpg


Copy and paste this link into your browser...delete the http:// and then press enter...that will print out beautiful and is a great one...plus it's cool to copy sargent...this is pretty much one of the only ones I have found online.

You can also order a huge book of Bargue's drawings and paintings through the dahesh museum:

http://www.daheshmuseum.org/

You can then copy ones straight out of that book...or use a copy machine on one of the pages and then go at it. Good luck man we will be here to critique you as good as we can!

I didn't use an easel when doing mine but you certainly can...I just did mine on a drawing board and I would set it on the couch if I needed to get up and walk away for a bit. The copies that I did were on about 8 1/2 x 11 paper...that worked out ok for me. I have seen people go larger but it's all about what you want to do and how big the original litho is...hope that helped ;)

[endregan]

really only 8.5x11? That last one I did was on 12x18.

maybe thats why it took so long :o

If I knew I could do them that small I would be doing another one right now!

I can print out one on 8.5x11 and do one?! SWEET!

[Pesmerga]

I'm not really into bargue drawings. It's interresting though. Seems really hard to duplicate a full body. Especially if the subject has a lot of details on his clothes. I don't think I'm ready for that...

If that's "the middle class" I'm way behind the average noob :(

[MindCandyMan]

Pesmerga don't worry about screwing up the first bargue drawing just take your time on it and don't rush it...let it take you a month to do it if that's what it takes. This is how you move from noob to getting better...by doing stuff that challenges you...trust me this is the first step in learning to draw well...and eventually draw from life very well. Do it we will be here to help critique you. ;) :rock:

[endregan]

Pesmerga. The first step to success is failure. How do you think the pros got to where they are? You cannot hide from studies, these are what make you progress. What do you have to lose! Just go for it :D. Working hard in whatever you do is the only way to succeed, just like in high school or anywhere else!


Shadow shapes WADOWW
http://www.visiblesurface.com/sketches/2004/july7/bargue3.jpg

[MindCandyMan]

Hey Jack awesome to see you doing this...this one is tons tons tons better than your other one. You have come a long way and you are learning to control your medium (pencil in this case) a lot better! I circled some areas that were off in the photo to me at least. Also there are some things that look a little off...it looks too squashed...your drawing looks too squashed I mean. Measure lots of points and make sure they are exact from the plumb line to see where you may have strayed and then analyze it and figure out why that happened so you can avoid it next time. Also you have poor line quality in certain areas...they is a "built up" line of a bunch of small different lines...if the line isn't right erase it and draw it again or just erase the "hairs" around it and make it a lot more precise. Also pay attention to the line quality in the original drawing you want to duplicate that...if the line is a certain darkness/lightness or width duplicate that as well. The areas I circled look off to me...this is looking great overall though man awesome job! Keep it up.

http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue3.jpg

[endregan]

Hey thanks for the indepth crit. I will definitely have to keep working on those areas you mentioned.

Yeah for the bad line quality parts I kind of rushed the bottom part a bit. I have spent more time on it since then and fixed some areas. We will see...

I should measure and see where I went wrong, I think I may have fixed that though. I will check it out!

It may be the left shoulders angle from the pointy thing that is making it look smaller. heheheh

Thanks Jonny!

[Journeyman]

This is a site for the author of the recently reprinted Bargue catalog - (for the show that took place at the Dahesh Museum a few months ago). Some Bargue drawings are shown on this site.

http://www.geraldmackerman.com

[Martin de Madrid]

I was going to post a thread on Bargue drawing, but it looks like you beat me to it by about 2 1/2 years! lol!

GREAT THREAD!

I have started my Bargue technique, but I am using a cast of Seneca. I want to back up and do several from the drawings first. One thing in the book that has not been discussed on this thread is that the curves are all put in using straight lines first to avoid the tendency to draw arcs and to get the amplitude and curvature correct.
I am putting a link to this thread on my site. If you want to see the information I have on old master techniques visit:

1st Class Pinups Old Masters' Painting Techniques Newsletter (http://www.1stclasspinups.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=11) (Link dead, Sept, 05)

Love this thread, and this board! Will post my progress here as I go. Many, many thanks. It is wonderful to see people charged up about the old methods and aesthetics. I moved to Madrid from Laguna Beach, CA to study Velazquez at the Prado over 4 years ago. Best decision I ever made. Have two friends (Zach Lawson and Annette Lear) from the Art Institute of Southern California (now the Laguna College of Art and Design), where we studied for four years together, who went on to the Florence Academy. I visited Florence last March and got the info on the Dahesh source for the Barge book.

Now my wife and I are purchasing a house west of Toledo (if everything goes ok) and I will be starting a teaching taller (atelier in Spanish). We have a three-bedroom fully furnished apartment downstairs and a large studio area below that (and a huge garden with chickens!), pool, landscaping, castle in town, another ten minutes away, located in one of the best wine regions of Spain! Yeah! Life is Very Good!

Martín 8)

[Firenze Phoenix]

Hi!............
I just stumbled upon this site looking for Bargues my mom can draw.....she wants me to teach her what I'm learning.

I go to The Florence Academy of Art....I studyd Bargue drawing for 2 trimesters.....but some go faster...others slower...I did 3 easy small Baruges in pencil..then 3 larg harder ones....the Belvidear torso is the hardest brague to draw.... http://digilander.libero.it/tuttobianco/cashmere-0001bargue.jpg and I did that with charcoal....it took me 5 weeks to do...and it was really large...... http://img71.photobucket.com/albums/v215/markfeiler2004/Picture_0908.jpg this one is good for a first or 2nd pencil drawing...........................
http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue%20drawing%201%20final%20side.jpg this ones good for a 2nd drawing....

If I find them on the net or find away to show you my drawings I did...then I will..but some people need to do more then just 3 pencil and 3 charcoal to get to cast drawings....and sometimes it takes some people3 months to do one drawing...everyone is different.............DONT USE A RULER TO MESSURE ANYTHING.........it really does not help you!

Put your drawings on a bord next to eachother eye leavel on a easel thats strait up and down....plum your easel to make sure!..do the drawing standing up!...step back lots to see it from a disstence!....We NEVER sit down to draw! I stand 6-11hours aday drawing...now I'm drawing my 3rd cast...

Keep your pencil extraaaaaaamly sharp!!!! Use an exacto knife and shave the wood away to expose around 1-1 1/2 inches of graffite(make sure you dont carve the lead...it will make it weaker and more easy to brak)....now use a fine fine fine sand paper..so smooth its kinda as fine as the fine side of a nail file...go to a hardwear store....get it!..you dont need a huge pice....maybe as big as your hand..(sometimes they'll give it to you for free)....now tape this to a bord........sharpen it to a nedel point...like a wepon...(sorry my spelling sucks as s)....keep a few penciles ready....2h-HB..maybe even 5h-hb...........you do the same with charcoal once you get there.

get a little mirror the size of your hand with no rim....but tape the back and around the edge(so if it breakes there wont be such a mess to clean)
You should use the mirror lotssss!!!!!!!! upside down or backwords or butterfly.......its a great tool!

You really need alot of time and dont let it frustrait you!.It sure has helped me!.....I can see sooooooooooooo much better now!

But its still best to go to a art school........I think that The Florence Academy of Art is the best there is....but if you can get something close..then try..but if you can get in here..its worth it!..or if you can find someone to studdy under that studyd here for a few years..at least 3-4......

yup..well..its cool that you guys are trying Bargue drawing.......its worth it!

ciao ciao
-someartgirlinflorence

[the_allejo05]

question are you doing the bargue drawings the ones that took you weeks..from a distance..like the cast drawings??..oh here are mine for critique..bare with me..they took me half an hour maybe less or a bit more..
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_192530.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_192534.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_185935.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_185280.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_189741.jpg

i just did plate 51 this time it took me like two hours..i'll take a pic of it..it was really challenging..im not use to detailing..but next one i will do it properly i guess..from an easel..my eye needs acurateness buahhhhhhhhh...
oh mindycandyman..do you have sargeants portrait charcoals..by dover publications very cheap and very cool here are some that i copy last year myself..
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_186323.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_186321.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_186313.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_185248.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_186345.jpg
this is one i painted from a book.. i did with acrylic that's why it sucks i need to manipulate the paint..so i better stick with oil hehe
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_186346.jpg

[sflagirl]

hi,

i would like to start a bargue drawing. i scanned in the plate from the book at a high res [600dpi] and printed it out on gloss paper. do you recommend professional printouts over home printers?

what paper would be good for these drawings since you have to erase quite a bit?

i usually use an ingres paper [fabriano or hahnemuhle] but i am not sure if it is durable enough.

[Dizon]

hi,

i would like to start a bargue drawing. i scanned in the plate from the book at a high res [600dpi] and printed it out on gloss paper. do you recommend professional printouts over home printers?

what paper would be good for these drawings since you have to erase quite a bit?

i usually use an ingres paper [fabriano or hahnemuhle] but i am not sure if it is durable enough.


I think any good drawing paper is ok like the big Strathmore pads. I don't know what the Ingres paper looks like but I suggest using white colored paper. For erasing use kneaded erasers and the staedler white erasers.

[MindCandyMan]

allejo - I don't have that sargent book but I want it...it looks really cool! (see critique below)

sflagirl - I would definitely definitely suggest using stonehenge paper for these...stonehenge paper is awesome and it takes a beating. You can get it HERE (http://www.misterart.com/store/view/001/group_id/3844/RISING-Stonehenge-Drawing-Pad.htm) ...that's just one place...the pad is nice for bargue drawings cause you don't have to cut the paper. Work softly at first...light touch is always needed though.

patdzon is right about being able to use any paper...but use stonehenge if you can...I use those erasers he said as well...can't wait to see the drawings.


Here is an overdue critique for you allejo hehe...I think a lot of the problem comes in the fact that they were done in under an half an hour. The point of doing bargue drawings is not for a quick copy (although that may have other benefits)...the goal of a bargue drawing is to get it to look EXACTLY as the original drawing(s). You want every subtlety of line...you want all the values to be the same...you want all the edges of the values to be the same. These are really good for 30 minute studies but it isn't enough. You need to spend about 30 hours on each drawing and if you are asking yourself "how the heck can I spend 30 hours on one bargue drawing?" then you haven't grasped the concept...and you won't be able to draw from life effectively. You have to rub your kneaded eraser between your fingers till it gets a point on it and pick out all those little black spots in your value areas and lightly fill them in with a pencil in order for your transitions, etc... to look right. You need to look at the angle of your line and imagine dropping a marble onto it...where would the marble rest?...is it the same as the original drawing. Look at the critiques I gave to endregan earlier in order to get an idea of the type of things you have to look for when doing these. The point of these drawings are to make you look very very deeply and to discipline yourself to see the true nature of everything before your eyes. Don't simplify it...don't assume...get it to look exactly the same. People ask me how I get the casts to look real...I put down exactly what I see that's how it looks real. When I say exactly...I mean "exactly"...no simplification. So it's hard for me to critique these because they are only 30 minute studies so they will inherently have things wrong with them. I hope that helps...but if you just trust me and really really really push on one of them you will learn more than doing ten 30 minute studies. Also...don't paint at all right now...you are not ready. Painting is 90% drawing and you need to work on drawing first. I have to tell you this...you have a good work ethic...and you are choosing the right path. Plus...I like people with amibition...i like telling people to slow down...it means they are excited...and that's a very good thing...keep that! Just learn control as well. Hope that helped.

[the_allejo05]

yeah dover books are very cheap..and i got all the collection of the master drawings..degas,rembrandt, sargeant,mike,leo,ingres,rubens..all those nice artists..i just study some of them for fun..
i just read your critique..and well i did some other plates after the post..i put them in another thread but i will post them here..
well this have taken a tad longer..5, 6 hours, others 3..is far from 30 hours..hehe..but im trying to slow down. and be more exact with my eye...
this new ones i put them on an easel at a distance..with a string to mark the vertical, use some measurements with my pencil..and later with my eye....to get a better rendering i finish them off at my drawing table with the book ..on some i use one pencil on others different ones.
.now i think i will pick up that stonehenge paper..i was using white regular print paper and it does not take much eraser.i dont erase much anyways..
i will be starting another plate..one with a lots of folds it looks very challenging and well i will take my time...;)
Mindy (i just killed your name hehe) i understand what you say to just not paint..but right now...im having fun..sometimes taking it serious sometimes not..so i just want to get confortable with oil a bit..(i did do the charts of richard schmidt (ook me like 2 months..which i take it you like him too :), i will give his brushes a try..but i think i like rounds more..i do paint with filberts cause i bought them last year..)
I am having an interview this saturday with Jeffrey Mims in carolina to see if they take me into their studio..it will be an atelier just like pantura..and yes they start with bargues..and i guess i will have to do those the proper way...hopefully i will start in october i can't wait.
here are some of the new plates i have done..i being more careful now..
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_207229.jpg the shading looks crappy because it was done from a distance..while at the easel..kinda of using your memory..thanks to padtzon i change my approach so now i finish them with my book side by side..
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_209922.jpg
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_211474.jpg
I will post my new one here..later
i can see a bit of my eye getting better..after doing these longer bargues
i always sketch on mondays
the figure on a cafe that i pay 3 bucks..15 minutes a pose...is good enough..when drawing now..i imagine a vertical line..as well as focusing outside to inside...hmm bargue certainly new something hehe..

[MindCandyMan]

allejo - I'm so happy for you that you get to go to an atelier!!!! That's awesome! So many people don't get the chance to do that...you will love it! You should come to my atelier if you can hehe...that would be cool. These bargues are much much better and it's easier for me to critique them because of that. I think you are really seeing shapes very well...I see a lot of chiseled edges on the bargues...lots of little straight lines instead of making the thing like a blob of curvy lines. So that's really good. I think the problem you are having is in the shading...you are not paying attention to the edges as closely as you could. If you look at the belvedere torso on his back...the shadows are very very sectioned off into little pieces here and there. In the bargue book there are soft transitions on some parts and hard parts on other shadows. All these little subtleties describe form and describe how a thing exists in space...a lot of the shading that you have in these pieces is kind of confusing and it doesn't describe the form. You want the feeling that the back of the torso is really turning in space...and all those muscle undulations need to be treated with much care. Here is my bargue that is like your second one...i may have used different source material but you can see what I mean.

http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_uploads/bargue%20drawing%201%20final.jpg

Now this bargue is far from spectacular but you can see around the butt and other areas all the subtle shading that creates the look of a sphere or round surface. Most of the shading on the human form is not harsh...it is subtle and needs to be observed exactly as it is. When doing someone's portrait from life you will really see this come into play because if you create (by wrong observation) a different facial structure than they actually have it won't look like them...if that makes sense. These are looking good though my friend...keep going I admire your work ethic! It will pay off in the end for sure. Keep going and thinking and working.

[the_allejo05]

thanks mindy, i just had the interview saturday..and well im in! I will start in october since i have things to do until then. the town is quiet and nice..just perfect to focus. This guy is awesome he is self taught and he helped with the curriculum in florence, studied fresco with Ben Long and had some guidance with Pietro Annigoni. He is a muralist and that is my goal at the end. They took me on a tour around their studio an is small and very clean and orderly..hehe something i will need to learn. His tecnique is extremely high I feel like a tiny ant but very excited.
Yes i had plans to go to pantura (hans accepted my application) ,but im south american and the cold just kills me hehe. Sometime in the future I would love to visit your atelier and we could interchange ideas, I am in the same boat..lots of dedication and study for life ..hehe. I do admire your progress..simply amazing. thanks for your critique i will focus more on what you said
oh here's the latest one i did . im gonna try the stonehenge paper on the next i do..on this one i try to imitate the hatching of the drawing following the form
http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/18782_216399.jpg

[MindCandyMan]

This one definitely look better but you can still push it! Oh hey I know that school I have seen it often! I realized once I went to the website that I had visited that website a ton of times. That looks really cool you will be able to do color studies, etc... some really cool stuff down the road besides casts. Should be really fun you will do awesome I know it.

[wim]

Okay, this will look like an unbelievably stupid question, but still...

About using the horizontal piece of thread, when laying it across the paper it never stays tight (unless I tape it down like the vertical piece of thread, but that defies its purpose as a measurement tool).
Another solution would be to just hold it with both hands when measuring (like this (http://users.pandora.be/level-zero/thread.jpg)), but then I can't hold my pencil anymore.

What am I missing here ? I'm obviously doing something wrong, but I can't see it :S

[MindCandyMan]

haha...you are doing it exactly right wim...you have to grab the string with both hands. You have to find your mark and then drop the string...remember where that mark was and make a mark with your pencil. Then you grab the string again and check to that your mark is right. Doing a bargue is about building a visual memory too...so when you look at the model...still life...etc and you have to walk far away from your canvas...it won't matter cause you will be able to judge relationships properly. It's not a stupid question...I get that question from the people I am teaching as well...they all asked me that at the first lesson hehe. That's why a ruler is forbidden for being used to plot points...your mind won't be sharpened by that.

[Dizon]

goshdarn wim! That looks mighty difficult for a your first Bargue! I suggest you find something more simpler. Feel free to go to this download link for some good scans of Bargues I got from some friends.

http://dl2.filehd.com/download.php?get=968668622

To anyone else who is interested, feel free!

[wim]

I think I'm going to finish this one anyway, since I've already spent quite some time on the outline (still working on that). It's frustrating, but fun as well :)
After that I'll try one of the bargues you provided (download in progress).

[mir]

patdzon,
thanks for the bargues.I was thinking of doing one.I still haven't chosen which one.Also I wanted to ask you guys how large is your copy from which you are looking A4,A3 or other size.
M.

[Dizon]

patdzon,
thanks for the bargues.I was thinking of doing one.I still haven't chosen which one.Also I wanted to ask you guys how large is your copy from which you are looking A4,A3 or other size.
M.

Hey heartbeat,

I suggest you choose a simple one first, and be sure to read the method on how to copy those plates. I had some of mine printed about 13x19 inches so it's a bit big but it's all up to you. I won't suggest a print-out that's pretty small though. Take advantage of the high resolution scans.

[wim]

As patdzon said, it turned out to be mighty difficult indeed.

http://users.pandora.be/level-zero/drawings/bargue_0.png

The green lines on the original (left) represent my pencil lines on the right (barely visible, even with enhanced contrast).
Everything went reasonably well in the beginning, but I guess I lost concentration after a while, and it shows in the drawing (left arm & right part of the socle both wrong).
I think I'll start anew soon with an easier bargue...

[Dizon]

As patdzon said, it turned out to be mighty difficult indeed.

http://users.pandora.be/level-zero/drawings/bargue_0.png

The green lines on the original (left) represent my pencil lines on the right (barely visible, even with enhanced contrast).
Everything went reasonably well in the beginning, but I guess I lost concentration after a while, and it shows in the drawing (left arm & right part of the socle both wrong).
I think I'll start anew soon with an easier bargue...


hhe told ya! Atleast you tried anyway. Well good luck with the new one!

[MindCandyMan]

yeah start simply if you have problems with concentration. That's part of what the bargues do for you as well...they teach you patience and a working method and both of those things are vital.

[mir]

Thank you ,patzdon for the answer.
I read all the posts above so I am almost ready to begin.I chose a plate with a hand.I printed it size A3.And this is my set-up.I just need to add the thread but my question is where exactly should I put it.First,I thought it have to be in the middle but then I looked at other people's threads and they are not in the middle.Do I have to chose some position which I think is important?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/Mishkata/Bargue_01.jpg

M.

[Dizon]

yes. Choose where you think the thread should be placed. Take your time on this. Try to place the plumb line where it passes 2-3 key/obvious points on your subject.

[MindCandyMan]

Glad to see you taking a lead on this patdzon! It's nice to see other members...all of you guys taking this stuff seriously. It will help you immensely. The point of doing these is so that you learn to draw from life properly. You learn to see proportion and you begin to start training your eye. Even though this is a drawing you are copying. Pretend that it is a model standing in front of you...a model that stays completely still heheh. You can draw from life the same way you draw here...checking the angles...judging distances etc...

[Dizon]

Yes, MCM. If you can do it, so can we! :)

[MindCandyMan]

That's definitely true...If I can do it...anyone can heheh...I certainly know that to be true hehe

[wim]

New setup :

http://users.pandora.be/level-zero/drawings/bargue/bargue002.png

More on Sunday...

[MindCandyMan]

That's a good one to start with definitely.

[Boogieman]

Hey, decided I wanted to do one of these. God knows I need it. I haven't gotten very far yet, just set the thing up and marked the highest and lowest point. I got some other projects going on alongside this that need attention too but I'm gonna try n dedicate atleast 1 hour a day to this bargue. Hopefully I'll finish within the year... Thanks patdzon for the scan.
http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/4029/bargue018no.jpg

[mir]

Boogieman, you chose a head .I also was thinking of a head but then decided this should be more suitable for my first Bargue.Hope you'll post your progress.
Here is where I am so far.And I should say it took me about 4 hours I think.
I try to measure different parts with the thread:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/Mishkata/Bargue_02.jpg

M.

[Dizon]

Nice set up guys! I just want to make sure on one thing. Are you guys doing this using the Sight-Size method?

[mir]

Paztzdon,
Well,I read the explanations here and also in the plates you had shared.I think the only different thing for me is that I am not doing it on an upright easel.
Could you tell me if you thing something is not like it have to be.Thanks.

[Boogieman]

I'm doing it with the method MCM explained in the start of the thread. The method from your scans I thought was only applicable to cast drawings? Maybe I didn't read it good enough..

[Dizon]

I'm doing it with the method MCM explained in the start of the thread. The method from your scans I thought was only applicable to cast drawings? Maybe I didn't read it good enough..


It's applicable to both. My easel is not upright so I taped both my paper and the Bargue on a wall. I stand a few feet away from it, taking note of my vantage point by marking the position of my feet with tape.

[Dizon]

Paztzdon,
Well,I read the explanations here and also in the plates you had shared.I think the only different thing for me is that I am not doing it on an upright easel.
Could you tell me if you thing something is not like it have to be.Thanks.

you can tape both on a wall. It's really important. It has to be upright so you don't get any distortions. All judgements must be made from your vantage point. Do not look at the original upclose. Imagine if your drawing an actual cast by being very near it. Your drawing would be distorted because you're looking at parts of the subject, not its entirety. This is one of the things the sight size method teaches you; to look at your subject as a whole.

[MindCandyMan]

Heartbeat that is looking really good although I would suggest doing something a bit different for everyone else and for you for next time heartbeat. It's totally cool this is part of the learning process...but you want to start a lot more general than you are starting. If you download those bargue plates and then look at how he would block them in...that's how you want to start blocking yours in. You want to go from ultra ultra general to specific. When I first block in any drawing that I am doing I start with probably about 8-10 points total. Tony Ryder calls it the "envelope" around the subject that you are drawing. If you don't do it this way it will be hard for you to get out of sight size drawing into comparitive drawing. Start with the most general points you can and make sure that all your lines are definitely definitely not rounded off in the beginning...pretend like everything is a square angle, etc... Plus you want to bring the whole thing up together...Later on when you have way more experience you can start on one area and work out but it's much much easier to bring the whole thing up together at the beginning...the process makes more sense. So you start really general and then you step back and look at it...does what you put down look like what you are drawing...where does it look weird? Then find where it looks strange and analyze WHY it looks the way it does. Start very very general so you can control what's going on. What will happen if you don't is that you will have to move one whole side of the arm out possibly or something and you won't do it because you "spent so much time on it" so then at the end you have a drawing that doesn't look anything like what you are looking at and it is polished off...that's what they call a polished turd. Good job though keep it up...it's ok for this one...but you see how the right side isn't even on and the left side has a lot of detail...just don't do that for your next bargue. For this one...just be willing to erase that whole side if you have to hehe.

[MindCandyMan]

*************
Ok I have an announcement about - Atelier Private lessons...I posted this in my thread but I thought it would be a good idea to post it here too to see if you guys are interested...since you are interested in doing your bargues. You could do your bargues with me if you wanted! hehe

I am currently in the process of renting a 400 square foot studio space in this apartment complex ( http://www.block24.com ). It's a big open room...very large and spacious with huge north light window doors. It will be more than enough room for me and a model setup etc... The reason I am writing is to say that there is room to teach some people in the "atelier style" there and I am going to do that. I will probably have space for about 2 or 3 people but this is how it will work. I will take you through the same training that I received (bargue drawings, cast drawings, cast paintings, still life paintings, etc...). You will be able to have your own small space blocked off with dividers where you can do your bargues and your cast drawings and I will provide the casts...the bargues...the lights, etc... The studio will be in the same huge building that my apartment will be. If you look at the block24 website and look at the plans...you can see building 21...right above the number "21" is where the space is located...facing north as you can see. There are a billion apartments there so you can easily find a place in there where you can live and walk to this studio space. I plan on being at this space for at least two years...probably more...while I build up my body of work. I haven't decided on the price yet but it will be something similar to what I charge my private lesson students except that you will get my help for the whole month at any time during the day instead of just an hour or two a week. If anyone is interested you can find it on my website HERE (http://www.jonathanhardesty.com) and look on the contact info and you can contact me by phone or mail. If you contact me I can send you the document that lists the curriculum...supplies...everything you need. If you are interested...even to take a six month crash course or something just lemme know.

Here is the information here as well

Jonathan Hardesty
4408 Taylor Lane
Richardson, TX 75082
214-227-6521
jonathan@jonathanhardesty.com

If you are a nasty and mean person...I'm not interested in sharing a studio space with you hehe.

[mir]

Patdzon,
I will think how to place my next one vertically,thank you
MindCandyMan,
Thank you for the explanation.It was very useful cause I was really doing it wrong,I'll try to make the rest more general although I know it should be general as a whole(from the beginning),so I'll try to do the next one in the right way.
Now I made this part with more looking at general angles and more straight lines.I placed it roughly,afterwards I will compare things to see what is wrong.
And good luck with the teaching.I wish you to do your work with pleasure.
This is it so far:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/Mishkata/Bargue_03.jpg

M.

[Dizon]

Here is my first Bargue! FInally....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v735/patdzon/firstbargue1.jpg

There are some small mistakes here. It's hard even when working on a simple one. The smaller details/features are the hardest to get! I'll do better next time. However, I feel I've improved a bit with my eye. All in all, I think I did a good job with this first one, and I'm quite happy with it.:)

I also used a different approach. I didn't use any sort of vertical/ horizontal plumblines. All I did was enclose the original in a box, and I did the same with the drawing itself. From my vantage point, this enabled me to judge the negative shapes within the box to find the shape. And everything was also done by eye as much as possible.

I couldn't quite get it as dark as the original as I was using graphite. I want to try vine charcoal next time, if ever I get good charcoal paper.

[mir]

Patzdon,
great , and the important thing is you are learning things, because in some cases I feel that I do not learn anything which makes the process pointless.
Good luck with the next one and it would be interesting to see your progress if you don't mind.

M.

[Dizon]

heartbeat,

thanks! I think learning something takes time. Get the most out of that Bargue by spending considerable time on it, and not by hurrying the process.

[MindCandyMan]

Good job patdzon...one of my students is working on this same one so I know how it shoudl look hehe. The reflected light is too light on the heel. Also I like how angular you have made everything because it allows for a more solid looking drawing but I think some of the angles need to be smoothed out in some areas. The left bottom part of the base...underneath the toes needs to be smoothed out a tiny bit more and same with the ankle bone on the right of the bargue. Also the edges need a bit more care. You can see at the top it doesn't fade into white...it almost looks like a line of lighter shadow next to the darker shadow. Also you can see dark blob areas within the shadow areas that you should very carefully pick out with a kneaded eraser. Roll the kneaded eraser in your fingers so it gets a super long and thin point and then you can pick out those areas of darkness. There are other areas that need work but it would be hard to explain the specific areas with text heheh. Good job for your first one by yourself though...keep a light touch and keep your pencil sharp. Keep us updated too. It's just awesome that you are taking the initiative to do this on your own. Push much much harder for your next one though. Be meticulous about it...make it perfect.

[Dizon]

Hey thanks MCM! There were times when I really wished someone experienced was guiding me, but I'll do better next time. I'll keep in mind the soft edges as well.

[MindCandyMan]

just the attitude of the response you just had shows you will be a good artist. Being teachable is everything...someone with a teachable spirit will always look for how to make their own art better. That's a key ingredient and you obviously have it. You would be surprised how many people ask for help and then argue with you about it...it's funny.

[Dizon]

just the attitude of the response you just had shows you will be a good artist. Being teachable is everything...someone with a teachable spirit will always look for how to make their own art better. That's a key ingredient and you obviously have it. You would be surprised how many people ask for help and then argue with you about it...it's funny.


haha. A friend always reminded me that once I start my Atelier training, that I should keep an open mind and throw everything I know prior to it out the door. I guess it's true, coming from a guy who studied at Cecil and Graves back in the 80's.

[Dan1989]

I've been working on this bargue for about 13-14 hours and I feel like I got way off track trying to do elaborate shading and such too early, I messed up alot of my drawing and at this point I'm just trying to salvage the drawing. These are two seperate scans so I can't guarantee that the size/tone relationships between the two are accurate, any advice or help would be appreciated!
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5241/bargue25ni.jpg

[darkwolfb87]

Just finished my first bargue, now on the second one. I think I rushed it at 20 hours as there's several big mistakes that were too dark to fix. Excuse the bad photo, the flash bounced off the wrist area:

[Pixeldragoon]

Where can I find these plates? =\

[MindCandyMan]

patdzon - Yes and then when you are done with the atelier training...block that out of your mind for a little while as well heheh. Don't become a realist robot either hehehe. There's a danger in that.

Dan1989 - This happens to the best of us...just remember next time ;) ...take your time with the drawing...wait till the last minute you can hehe. In general the left side of your bargue (from the plumb line) is squashed compared to the original. Measure all the major points on your bargue on the left side from the plumb line and you will see how small that left side has become. It's basically just past the shadow shapes as well...the negative spaces to the right of the major shadow shapes look fine so it's probably to the left of them that is causing the problem. Keep working you are doing well...just move all the lines you need to and then get all the subtle areas and then you can start rendering. There are some nice things going on here too...I can see you are paying attention to negative shapes and you are really getting the angles right which is HUGE. Keep up the good work!

darkwolfb87 - Good job for your first one...I would post a better picture though...take it outside during the day that will allow for a better picture...then we can critique it even more.

pixeldragoon - http://dl2.filehd.com/download.php?get=968668622

[darkwolfb87]

Thanks MCM, I'll get a new pic of the arm when I can.

Here's my second WIP, I think about 5 hours so far:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/darkwolfb87/bargue2.jpg

Interesting...an overlay shows a lot of wrong outlines I thought were spot on heh

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/darkwolfb87/bargue2fade.jpg

[Dizon]

Darkwolf, good thing you did that overlay cuz that means that you shouldn't be in such a hurry finishing that Bargue. Do it in stages. Like for a couple of days, locate points and placement of each part, then make sure it's all correct. Then spend another couple of days working on the "block-in"( a simplified shape of the drawing, like what is often seen on most Bargue plates). After that, you can focus on the final contour. After a few days, you finally start the shading process. About 3 hrs each day is good. Dont tire yourself.

[darkwolfb87]

I just re-measured those bad spots in the overlay, luckily a lot of it was just the barrel distortion from the camera...scared me for a while :) I am in college full time and see my teacher once a week for 3 hours so I do rush sometimes. I'll definitely aim for 3 hours, but realistically it will require cutting down on my other activities during the day.

[darkwolfb87]

K here's my first bargue, close up:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/darkwolfb87/barguearm1.jpg

[Dizon]

looks great to me, man! How do you get it so dark??? The paper I'm using does not allow me so. Maybe I should use a medium or rough surface.

[darkwolfb87]

I used a 2H pencil all the way through, went over the shadow areas countless times, and gradually put more pressure on the paper. I did scratch the paper too hard along the wrist bone though. The paper I used was really thick and a little textured, sorry I'm blanking out on the name.

[MindCandyMan]

Nice job darkwolf...the pointer finger looks a bit strange though and I've never seen that bargue before but there is something strange about the pointer finger. But it looks like you have captured all the subtlety of line all around the bargue which is really nice. Some of the shadow edges look really forced but all in all it's a pretty good first bargue. I will be interested to see what else you do. Don't be afraid to grab an hb if you have to for the shadow areas. Just remember to always have a light light touch and you will be fine. Good job.

[Dizon]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v735/patdzon/barguefoot.jpg

A Bargue I just finished a few days ago. I dove into the darks with a 6b this time around. I managed to make it as dark as the original.

[MindCandyMan]

From what i can see it looks really good. Did you scan this or take a picture? If you took a picture you can take it outside and take a picture of it and it will turn out a lot better.

6b pencils are tough because you have to have an ultra light touch so that the paper doesn't look greasy or shiny...but it looks like you did well with them. Try to take another pic if you can if you want more critiques...I am having the same problem with my current camera...I need a new one like it's nobody's business hehe.

[Dizon]

From what i can see it looks really good. Did you scan this or take a picture? If you took a picture you can take it outside and take a picture of it and it will turn out a lot better.

6b pencils are tough because you have to have an ultra light touch so that the paper doesn't look greasy or shiny...but it looks like you did well with them. Try to take another pic if you can if you want more critiques...I am having the same problem with my current camera...I need a new one like it's nobody's business hehe.

I only used the 6b for the dark areas which have the white spots that needed filling up. It looks really good actually. It does not look shiny at all. I'm still stumped with Bargue's awesome technique cuz his drawings have this nice quality even upclose. Did he use charcoal to get that quality?

I'll try to take another photo tomorrow. I'm using someone's laptop as my PC needs repairing and my scanner is connected to that.

THanks!

[Gloominati]

starting my first bargue drawing. Damn I believed that this is hard but dude now I know why it's said that this will take some weeks, lol. So I decided to post this progress in small steps so that everyone can correct me easier and so that the result turns out as perfect as it can be.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e168/gloominator/bargue1.jpg

Update:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e168/gloominator/bargue2.jpg

[MindCandyMan]

good job so far gloominati but the big problem is that you are focusing in on the details way too soon. You need to block in the whole bargue very loosely and bring everything up together. You won't have an idea of proportion if you just start with the head and then to move to everything. This way of working is fine if you are a professional with a LOT of experience. But for starting out you need to loosely block in the whole bargue and then refine each part of it slowly together. You start loose so that when you need to make changes to the proportion you can erase very easily and not feel attached to anything you have put down. The angular approach looks really nice though.


patdzon - Nice...I can see it a lot better with the new picture that you posted. It looks really nice! You should feel really pleased with that it has a sensitive feel to it! You dealt with a lot of the edges in a really nice way and I think your confidence and attention to detail and patience show through in this...awesome! Do you feel you learned a lot from doing this?

[Gloominati]

MCM
Oh so I got this bargue drawing thing wrong, I thought that it should work without all the construction and basic shape things. Thanks for pointing this out dude, this will make things a lot easier for me :D

[Gloominati]

next update:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e168/gloominator/bargue3.jpg

[MindCandyMan]

Good job that's exactly how you want to start out. Like you said...it's much easier to start looking at the big picture and then move to the details. The angles look nice on this one but I think everything is a bit skinny from the waist up. The hips and tops of the legs by the hips are really skinny compared to the bargue and also the upper body looks a bit too thin as well. Measure the size of those across the whole form not just from the plumb line and see what you come up with. It might be the camera angle but I think it looks too skinny

[Pixeldragoon]

I know this is kinda like cheating, but I did an overlay for ya.
http://img425.imageshack.us/img425/1862/barguethingymajiggy1zj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Red is yours, green is the plate.

[Gloominati]

yeah thanks dudes! Now that you've pointed this out I see it as well. Thanks for the crit, I'll work on that!

[Gloominati]

working, working

update:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e168/gloominator/bargue4.jpg

[Dizon]

patdzon - Nice...I can see it a lot better with the new picture that you posted. It looks really nice! You should feel really pleased with that it has a sensitive feel to it! You dealt with a lot of the edges in a really nice way and I think your confidence and attention to detail and patience show through in this...awesome! Do you feel you learned a lot from doing this?

THANKS MCM! Yes, I did learn a lot from it, in terms of how I should approach copying one.

I'm afraid it would take a while for me to copy another as I am currently working...:(

[darkwolfb87]

Here's an update on my bargue, haven't gotten anywhere near working 3 hours a day, but I'll try to at least till the end of this week:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/darkwolfb87/bargue22.jpg


Keep it up everyone! :)

[goro_kiss]

My first " Bargue " exercice :thinking:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/med21/brague_1.jpg

[darkwolfb87]

This is as far as I'm taking the second one, I covered up the camera flash in the middle:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/darkwolfb87/bargue222.jpg

[goro_kiss]

Update
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/med21/brague_2.jpg

[goro_kiss]

52 min
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/med21/brague_4.jpg

[-The Swift-]

Here;s mine,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/RLHolden/Bargue1.jpg

let me know what you think

[darkwolfb87]

The Swift - overall it looks pretty good, the main thing that's holding it back is line quality; the curviness at the top of the foot should be envisioned as a series of straight lines. Try to look really closely at Bargue's drawing, I think you will see very small points where the straight lines connect to make the curve. Keep the pencil razor sharp :)

[goro_kiss]

Quick sketch 1:23
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/med21/bargue_5.jpg

[Metrini]

hey guys. I tried to get the plates from the site you listed MC but the link isnt working. Any other place I can get the plates?

[goro_kiss]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/med21/bargue_6.jpg

[Farvus]

I started doing Bargue drawing and it feels a bit like practicing on shooting range. Interesting experience :).

[spicycricket]

I know this is a really old thread, but its all new to me...I set up a blog about my own journey...

http://atelierjourney.blogspot.com/

http://sticksandjones.com/Plate1.7_02.jpg

I would love to hear from people who have already been through an atelier program?
Thanks
Angie

[lednar]

I have read many threads here about bargue drawing course, because i started also to try it out myself. But I am lack of source. I do not have the book, because its hard to get with reasonable price right now. Mostly just out of stock. I have found low-res. pictures, but printing them out and try to archive the best is not really possiable. Can anybody give me info, is there any hi-res image avaiable or pm me some?

[pim]

Hi
I have searched for some bargue drawings on web but i couldn't find any copies with appropriate resolution . I would be very gratefull if someone could reuppload or pm me the copies posted by patdzon.

[Adam Nowak]

Yeah, I'm in the same situation as you two. I have searched and searched and I cannot find them. I ordered the book once but it got lost on the way here.

[Rblackmore]

If you are looking to buy the book, I ordered mine from Bud-Plant(budplant.com), $100 for the hardcover and should still be in stock(unlike Dahesh). As for Gamerhomie, hope you had insurance? :[