The Notorious White Moth's Lair

[notorious white moth]

if this works, it's my official first art post
please let me know what you think--constructive criticism is always welcome

[Ramitxon]

Hi, Notorious, it's difficult to give criticism with only one sketch, I would like to see more of your work. You have started and that's important.
Seeing this one work I would dare to tell you to work on anatomy, it's difficult to understand it as it appear to have two pairs of arms in opposite directions.
Dont be shy and post more works.:yayca:

[_MOTH_]

I advice you to work on the anatomy.So when you do start with a sketch lines very finely (almost invisible) without using the tire, not until you clear the form and decide that you like then you are the bold lines, but not everywhere. Somewhere put under intense line,somewhere almost not visible and so ...My personal opinion is don't put too dark (black)lines for sketch.
But you must to know i give this advices only from one your sketch,post more for better advices.
Be rock

[notorious white moth]

I know I've been gone for a while, but my previous experience here left me feeling overwhelmed and out of place; here are some recent sketches (within the last week); the model sheet's a first draft, the other two are second drafts. I'd like to see what the community thinks.

The first is an exercise in foreshortening, one of my biggest weaknesses--her back paw's too high and her crotch is too small; she's supposed to be holding a pair of arming swords, but for now I'm focused on the figure--props can be added later. The second one, her eyes are a little off center and her right hand (her right) is too small, plus I have yet to add her tail. The hands on the second and third leave a lot to be desired, the hands on the first are oversimplified--because drawing hands is another of my biggest weaknesses

[notorious white moth]

I'm trying to understand the advice I come across here so often, "draw from life"--what it means, how it works, how it's supposed to help me. I've already noted that I have difficulty with hands and foreshortening, so in a fit bitterness, frustration, and self-loathing, I've decided to challenge myself to do 100 sketches of my left hand this month--here are 15 through 26. Something else I have difficulty with--how do I do a study of something that doesn't stay still long enough to be studied? Trying to draw one of my mother's two cats, unless they're asleep, I get one--at most two--lines before they move and what I've drawn no longer applies. Then what? This has happened too many times to count.

[notorious white moth]

just a quick addendum--how do I fix the thread name? it's supposed to be "White", not "Whit"

[Rhoades]

Hey there, you've got a good start! Your hands are looking ok, but obviously still need some work. My advice would be to buy a few anatomy books (If you haven't already), my favorite book for anatomy is by George B. Bridgman, the name of it is Constructive Anatomy. The book also has a nice section specifically on the subject of hands/wrists. The best advice of all is to just keep doing what your doing, you will see improvement! Keep it up

[notorious white moth]

it's supposed to be a dog--critiques please? (why are muzzles so hard to draw!!)

[Baka Youkai]

so far you're starting out reall good, i understand what you're saying about your anatomy, personally i would suggest anything by Burne Hogarth, he helped me so much.

[notorious white moth]

jpg even though I don't like the auto-aliasing; fixed the muzzle and added a ground line to make sure the legs are the same length, not sure what to do with the ear

[Goat Face Killah]

Check your PM's.

[notorious white moth]

self-portrait--eyes too low, I blame that on my glasses slipping <.<

[notorious white moth]

My high school drawing class taught me that there is a right away to draw from a model: contour drawing. Today, I learned that that is BULLSH*T. Today I discovered gesture drawing. Here's a sketch of my mom's stupid cat. Enjoy ^,,^

[notorious white moth]

Prelim sketch for DSG 1528--the scanner's old, everything scans that pale

[NothingReallyExists]

My high school drawing class taught me that there is a right away to draw from a model: contour drawing. Today, I learned that that is BULLSH*T. Today I discovered gesture drawing. Here's a sketch of my mom's stupid cat. Enjoy ^,,^

Do not be so quick to judge at what an education in art has to offer your techniques. You should pick and choose the things from each technique that work for you while keep applying yourself to the methods that you know best.

Right now, what you need to do is draw a lot. You are only submitting 3-4 pieces of work at the moment... and I dont know if you are drawing from your mind or drawing from life... but really it depends on how serious you are about what you're doing. Since you've found yourself here, I am a bit confused on how to take you, serious or not.

Look around your house, set up a still life, draw it. I dont care if its a door nob or all of the brooms in your house stacked in to a pile. DRAW. Draw a lot, draw often, keep a sketchbook on you, and draw at least 5 hours a day... THEN you should worry about technique.

Let your pictures speak all the words that need to be said.

[notorious white moth]

What I'm saying is that I was taught that contour drawing is the one and only right way to draw and that any other way is wrong, which severely limited what I was capable of doing as an artist; this goat guy that pm'd me the other day gave me the same bad advice. I am absolutely serious, which is why I'm here in the first place, and I've been drawing both from observation and from imagination, following the advice I've gotten here on this forum. I'm not posting everything I draw, I'm posting what I feel best exemplifies the work I've been doing. For example, I mentioned above that I'm doing 100 sketches of my hand. So far I've done about 80, but I've only posted one page of those. I've also been drawing from photos and doing various sketches from imagination. As for five hours a day, there are other things going on in my life besides drawing, and that seems a pretty arbitrary number, but I am devoting my free time to drawing as much as reasonably possible.

[notorious white moth]

reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Striped_Hyena_5.jpg

[notorious white moth]

The tl;dr version:
•I came here to ask for help, not to be insulted for needing it.
•Telling me to spend more time than I have on something that already leaves me exhausted doesn't help me.
•Telling me in a patronizing tone basic information that I already know doesn't help me.
•Giving me advice on my present situation that cannot in any way be applied to my present situation doesn't help me.
•I've come back, risking another profitless emotional beating, to ask for help, not to be insulted for needing it.
The long version:
It is not worth my time and effort to scan and post every single failed attempt at a doodle to show to a community that has made it quite clear that their only interest in me is as a laughing stock. I came here seeking a serious, semi-professional, education-oriented environment, and have only been met with accusations that I am not good enough because I lack what I am here to learn in the first place. That is why I have not posted anything in the last several months. I have made a point of drawing at least something every single day this year, and am seeing no significant improvement. Included with this post is a small collection of recent sketches, over which the question "now what?" seems to loom like Damocles' sword.
Anyone who wishes to respond with patronizing comments about
•fundamentally unrealistic time-management expectations given the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual demands of drawing and the fact that I do have to occasionally do such things as eat, sleep, and exercise;
•a lack of contour drawing, gesture drawing, line quality, basic shapes, negative space, or any other elemental details I already know about that are of use primarily in reproducing those same characteristics in existing works if and when they can be found and identified--with occasional application to drawing from life if one is not particularly concerned about the product bearing any resemblance to the subject matter whatsoever--or in refining work that is already up to snuff
is as far as I am concerned, an arrogant, elitist, immature douchnozzle who can please go fuck themself. These aspects DO NOT EXIST in drawings from imagination that have not yet been drawn. I am not here to be patronized, derided, or insulted. I am here to learn from better artists how to become a better artist myself. I will ask again in response to a previous post: If I were not absolutely serious, would I be here, especially given the kind of welcome I've come to expect?

[notorious white moth]

If I'm defensive, it's because I've been taught to expect to be under attack. I suppose what I've been trying to say is that none of the well-meaning but ill-presented advice I keep seeing here acknowledges--nor even seems to realize--that parlaying the skills used in drawing from life into drawing from imagination is a skill set unto itself.
That said, why am I been talked down to like a child who's decided to pick art as a random hobby, rather than seeing even half the encouragement that this user has?
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=188328

[notorious white moth]

Ok, since these Bargue plates--that I had never heard of until last night--are suddenly supposed to be some sort of be-all end-all universal standard for what's considered art, maybe with this I can actually get some legitimate feedback instead of just having basic terminology I already know regurgitated at me.

[Prion]

Hey man. Not everyone is out there to get you. There have been many responses here that are more than helpful. The problem is you're not taking them in. Many people go back to the basics, anatomy etc in order to understand complex forms. I am a beginner and have been drawing boxes, spheres and many anatomy sketches. I, like you, don't see the need to post everything as it takes a while to photograph and upload images. Uploading pages and pages of shapes would be silly.

I suggest bridgman like rhoses, his book makes more sense to me than any other anatomy book out there. Your lines look rushed and way too sketchy and it is to my understanding that bargue plates are meant to take weeks of work. They're also meant to teach shade, values etc. Your piece here has 2 values and somewhat rushed lines. Take more time when doing something like this. It won't help you if you don't learn anything in the process.

Ok, swallow your pride for a second: you do not know the basics yet. I don't know the basics yet. Upon accepting that you don't understand the basics and begin studying you will improve. I am not patronizing you, I am not attacking you. I am telling you what you really need to do. Draw fruit if you don't like drawing spheres, draw tables if you don't like drawing boxes. With respect from drawing from life I've found that it helps to flick back and forth from the object and line things up with one another. For example, if something has a circular form in it find what size it is in relation to the other things in that form. If that makes sense. It also helps to draw a box in perspective first and then draw in relation to that box. Loomis covers this I believe.

Attitude is #1 for improvement. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. I wouldn't have taken the time to type this if I didn't think it'd help you.

[notorious white moth]

So I spent a week or two studying anatomy and it has helped me a lot--but it's also highlighted some other underlying problems.

There's an issue of proportion in this particular image, in relation to the character's torso. How do I give a figure wide hips and a narrow chest--so that they actually look female--without either expanding the hips or compressing the ribcage to ridiculous extremes? I don't know how to fix this without either dismissing everything I know about the human body, compromising the integrity of the composition, or both.

"make measurements to make your proportions more accurate"
but this was drawn from imagination: I can't measure something that doesn't exist to be measured.

"so use references"
which runs into the brick wall of relevance, because how is a reference image supposed to help me draw anything other than that reference image? This is, to the best of my knowledge, an original--if uninteresting--composition of an original character. Unless I can somehow find a reference image that is for all intents and purposes identical to what I want to draw--in which case why draw it at all when I can just use the reference--I don't see how using references can help me.

"Keep practicing"
I am, every day

"keep studying anatomy"
an academic understanding of anatomy doesn't help me if I don't know how to put it into practice.

[notorious white moth]

oh by the way the difference in quality is because I got a new scanner. I hope I've made it clear by now that this is not intended as a showcase: I'm here to learn. So what exactly am I learning by sitting here waiting to be ignored?

There are two key questions in my previous post:
1: How do I fix the problems with the shoulders, chest, and waist without ruining the hips, arms, and legs?
2: How is working from reference images supposed to help me draw anything other than reproductions of those reference images?

[notorious white moth]

Here are two drawings: a freehand drawing of a teapot and another drawing of the same teapot using a reference image with similar shapes and proportions to a teapot, but not itself a teapot. This is to illustrate the previously discussed relevance problem in trying to draw something from a reference image that is dissimilar from the intended product.
Here's the reference image: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/chicken.jpg
Here are the drawings:

[notorious white moth]

Logically there are a grand total of two possibilities for each of these questions: either I am the only person who has ever had the problem in question or every single person who doesn't has learned how to resolve it. If the prior, I'm wasting time trying to draw in the first place. If the latter, countless users here are wasting my time by not answering my questions.

*How does one use a reference image to draw something that is not that image?
*How do I fix the torso and shoulders without ruining the limbs and hips?
*What's the point in posting here in search of help if I'm not going to receive any feedback?

[notorious white moth]

The reason I'm bumping myself is because that's the best solution I've found to the catch-22 I'm trapped in of having to be the artist I need help becoming to get the help I need.
*How does one use a reference image to draw something that is not that image?
*How do I fix the torso and shoulders without ruining the limbs and hips?
*What's the point in posting here in search of help if I'm not going to receive any feedback?

[notorious white moth]

Who do I have to kill to get some help around here?

[notorious white moth]

If I'm going about this the wrong way, where should I be looking for help? I don't have the resources to go back to school, and I've posted on the mentoring board on these very forums to no avail.

[equilerex]

How do I give a figure wide hips and a narrow chest--so that they actually look female--without either expanding the hips or compressing the ribcage to ridiculous extremes? I don't know how to fix this without either dismissing everything I know about the human body, compromising the integrity of the composition, or both.

I think what you want to achieve is a standard feminine "sand clock" figure... meaning that its not the ribcage you need to compress but the waist, the hips and sholders should be of similar width

some references:
http://erieye-stock.deviantart.com/art/Gym-rings-stock-156186113?q=boost:popular+in:resources/stockart/model/women/femalenude&qo=128

http://mjranum-stock.deviantart.com/art/Venus-on-the-half-shell-57458802?q=gallery:mjranum-stock/1854061&qo=87

you might also want to make those hips longer and smoother instead of short and bulky like volleyballs


"make measurements to make your proportions more accurate"
but this was drawn from imagination: I can't measure something that doesn't exist to be measured.
a typical human body has generic measurements you can apply to any drawing (and adjust them as needed) normally the head-width method is used..

a lil example, too busy to find smth better
http://snigom.deviantart.com/art/Female-Anatomy-Patterns-43675502?q=boost:popular+in:resources/tutorials/tradart/drawing/anatomy&qo=7


"so use references"
which runs into the brick wall of relevance, because how is a reference image supposed to help me draw anything other than that reference image? This is, to the best of my knowledge, an original--if uninteresting--composition of an original character. Unless I can somehow find a reference image that is for all intents and purposes identical to what I want to draw--in which case why draw it at all when I can just use the reference--I don't see how using references can help me.
humans/humanoids are universal, if you have something in mind, find a reference with the pose and body type you need, draw the anatomy/shapes off that photo and add the clothing/features you want to make the unique character you want, even professionals do that.
Drawing references also gives you practice where you can see what youre doing and over time you will learn how to draw the body so you can eventually do it out of mind... i bet my ass that most artists have started like that... first learn to draw by copying your surroundings and once they have the skills, they start to draw what ever they like out of imagination


"keep studying anatomy"
an academic understanding of anatomy doesn't help me if I don't know how to put it into practice.
dump the anime anatomy and learn the basic figure/structure/perspective.

once you can draw a figure without struggling you should probably see it yourself how you can put it into practice.


Not criticizing or anything, just want to help you find your way.
as for feedback, conceptart is huge and super fast community where a lot of feedback is gained through social interaction and giving feedback yourself, it can be tough but it is rewarding, though there are also other options if youre not used with the pace in here

[notorious white moth]

dump the anime anatomy and learn the basic figure/structure/perspective.


Did you read or just skim? I said I have an academic understanding of human anatomy. I said I've been studying anatomy. I said I spent weeks studying anatomy. I was getting hung up on the whole idea of anatomy because most of the art-related sources I've come across present anatomy as a holistic study, which is the exact opposite of what anatomy is. The word "anatomy" is from the Greek for "part". I dedicated weeks to learning the basic shapes and relative positions of the bones and superficial muscles of the human body, and do my best to draw them as accurately as I can both alone and in context. Also, what does anime have to do with any of this? See, it's for comments like that that I end up feeling like I'm under attack--like I don't belong here. As for your advice about social interaction and giving feedback, if I had any to give I would. I've already explained in a previous post that I've gone through the forums looking for anything to comment on and found myself completely over my head. The actual advice I appreciate, though you did contradict yourself: "a typical human body has generic measurements you can apply to any drawing" "you might also want to make those hips longer and smoother instead of short and bulky". So which is it? Are the proportions generic and universal or do they vary from one figure to another?

[Naidy]

Oh dear, come on lad- you've been given some amazing advice here.

I know it's irritating whenever you think you're making progress to be told to do what you believe you've already been doing too much of- but these people have spent YEARS of studying, not weeks or months.
I sympathise with you, I really do, but you have to stop argueing with these people and prove them you are capable of great things.

When someone tells you "This is where you are going wrong" and even shows you things you can learn off of, don't even waste time replying about how long you've already spent slavering over your studies- click on them links and actually learn from them
yes, it's hard
yes, it's irritating
yes, they are generic- but right now you need a foundation to build upon.
When you understand the underlieing features of a person's body then in time you can draw different varations of someone's body structure and what not, different races, different heights and weights. But not now- not yet.

but if you actually start setting yourself goals, say- an a4 page chock full of figures a day then you're on the road to improvement.

Please stop hurting yourself by lashing out at the brilliant advice you're getting, if you want to take little segments of what I say out of context and tell me why I'm wrong and why no one is helping you- fair enough, but don't say people haven't tried.

[equilerex]

Did you read or just skim? I said I have an academic understanding of human anatomy. I said I've been studying anatomy. I said I spent weeks studying anatomy. I was getting hung up on the whole idea of anatomy because most of the art-related sources I've come across present anatomy as a holistic study, which is the exact opposite of what anatomy is. The word "anatomy" is from the Greek for "part". I dedicated weeks to learning the basic shapes and relative positions of the bones and superficial muscles of the human body, and do my best to draw them as accurately as I can both alone and in context.
It didnt show out in your drawings, theres a difference between reading/knowing the theory and hammering it into your brain through practicing so you can draw while asleep. if your more into gesture drawings that dont require too much knowledge about anatomy, look into vilippu's teachings. as for learning muscles and bones, its useless if you dont have the solid buildup in the fgure department

Also, what does anime have to do with any of this?
your drawings in this thread are of anime nature.. the eyes, the body proportions and overall style, while fun and easy to draw, it's more effective if you learn human anatomy


The actual advice I appreciate, though you did contradict yourself: "a typical human body has generic measurements you can apply to any drawing" "you might also want to make those hips longer and smoother instead of short and bulky". So which is it? Are the proportions generic and universal or do they vary from one figure to another?

the hip thingie was meant for your specific drawing, as for universal human structure, the proportions still apply, you draw your 8 heads tall figure, make the ribcage 1,2-1,5 heads wide, hips 2heads wide (or change the values a bit if something needs emphasized, place other parts where theyre meant to and edit their to your needs.. fat fold here, abs there, weird and crooked legs there, the structure is mostly the same you just play with the values a bit, when drawing from imagination that will help, when drawing with a reference, you can do the same thing but you can use your eyes for measure.
better reference: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/mrmad/fig.jpg

atleast i know how it might feel for you... i was once rather defensive too up to a few years ago when i started to follow the constructive criticism i received, put it into practice and my work improved (a lot) and i appreciate it ever since. just kill your emotions and try to take it with logic and you can learn a lot, otherwise being here will be useless.

[notorious white moth]

Parietal, frontal, occipital, temporal, sphenoid, nasal, zygomatic, maxilla, mandible
seven cervical, twelve thoracic, five lumbar, the sacrum and the coccyx
twelve pairs of ribs--seven true (connecting directly to the sternum), five false
the sternum is roughly dagger shaped, for which the lower point--the xiphoid process--is named, from "xiphos", a kind of sword
at the top, the sternum connects to the clavicles, which extend laterally, joining to the scapulae, which are vaguely triangular. The head of the humerus joins to the medial margin of the scapula. Above the articular capsule where the humerus joins is the acromion, a large horn-like projection extending from the spine of the scapula. The lateral end of the clavicle joins to the acromion. Cavitary from the acromion is the much smaller coracoid process.
The sacrum of the spine joins to the ilium of the pelvis, which is fused with the ilium and ischium. The joint of the three forms the acetabulum, the socket of the femur.

I could go on, but do I really have to?
Now. TELL ME I HAVEN'T STUDIED ANATOMY.
Other than what bones and muscles connect to what other bones and muscles where, what is there to be learned about what bones and muscles connect to what other bones and muscles where? The issue here isn't anatomy, the issue here is proportions that--as I've been trying to explain--are not uniform, or different people couldn't possibly have different builds.

and I'm already filling a couple pages a day with gesture drawings.
You want to help me? Tell me something I don't know.


I understand that you're trying to help--and I appreciate the effort--but what have you told me that I wasn't already doing?

[notorious white moth]

There's a part of me that says it's not worth it--that I'm no good and I never will be...

but I know that's a lie--and this..
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2231410&postcount=8
this story frightens me

It's so easy for me to say 'I'm a writer, not an artist'--it would be so easy for me to give up, to stop going out of my way to make a real effort every day and just keep a sketchbook for enough occasional doodling to keep from feeling dead inside. As for that last point of advice, if I killed my emotions that's exactly what I would do, because there would be no frustration, no fear, no drive, no determination, just empty numbness--I wouldn't have to worry about feeling dead inside, I would be dead inside.

[notorious white moth]

I know I'm kind of working backward here, but..
did...
meaning that its not the ribcage you need to compress but the waist
account for...
--so that they actually look female--
?

Because umm...

[equilerex]

Other than what bones and muscles connect to what other bones and muscles where, what is there to be learned about what bones and muscles connect to what other bones and muscles where? The issue here isn't anatomy, the issue here is proportions that--as I've been trying to explain--are not uniform, or different people couldn't possibly have different builds.


and i absolutely agree with that as i said in here:
as for learning muscles and bones, its useless if you dont have the solid buildup in the fgure department

i myself started on figures in june and wish i had your knowledge of muscles but that will wait til i get better hang of my figures.

but il stop it, i dont know that much anyways, only got 3 months of experience, it seems that you know your way.

as for the last example, il still finish off by showing what i meant since
the image still has shoulders wider then the hips which is a male trait and too bulky muscles (well, if she was meant as an athlete then it will do but then shes not supposed to look that feminine anyways)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/mrmad/testt-2.jpg

wish you the best of luck and hope you'll get where you want with your studies without too much stress :)

[notorious white moth]

OK now I HAVE to call you on this:
... meaning that its not the ribcage you need to compress but the waist
because your edit of my horrible drawing that illustrated this advice not only reversed this but is exactly what I was talking about! You've proven my point by doing the opposite of what you told me to do! Anyway, If you look back at the drawing that started this conversation, you'll notice that the hips and shoulders are roughly the same width--the problem I'm trying to find a solution to in the first place has nothing to do with drawing the hips or the waist--it's how do I keep the chest and arms from crowding eachother out, using the hips as a general frame of reference for the width of the shoulders so I don't end up with another mess like this poor girl.
Can you understand my frustration at being bombarded with references for every single proportion of the human body EXCEPT the one I'm trying to fix?

[Naidy]

I noticed that you put up an anatomy study, see? that's progress. Because you're actually doing something other than argueing.
Keep doing things like that - from different positions, different angles and you will actually understand yourself what a body's meant to look like on paper than just in your head.
And I don't care if you've done 20 before of those, do 100, do 1000. Don't stop until you're confident you could draw everything about the human body perfectly with your eyes closed.

Now, I see that you're having problems making things look feminine and right now your definition of feminine seems to be the life-time-of-wearing-corsets type- which is fine.
But do yourself a favour and actually look at photos of women, actually measure over the pictures for the width of their shoulders, waist and hips and you'll see that whilst as you draw them that way it doesn't seem 'feminine' right now they don't particularly anatomically sound.

No one is saying you haven't studied anatomy, but they are saying you need to start putting pencil to paper and actually showing us results.

You know all the details?
Show us you think about each and every muscle, bone and tendon as you draw a body.
Think about how they relate to eachother, how they connect, what sizes they are in relation to what.
I know I can't yet, and that makes me know I need to do more studies and listen to what people tell me on this site.

Your study looks fine but when you do other things it looks suspiciously like you forget to really look back on your studies.
equilerex already told you he's a novice- thus the errors, all he's trying to do it help you by example so don't then go about proving how intherior his draw over is.

So to conclude this, I'd love to see you take some photos and actually refference from them- I've been told to do so many times and at first I'd think "Why would I want to, drawing people 'realistically'? it makes them look even worse!" but I promise you, you need it. We all need it.
Don't just copy, don't just draw.
Think whilst you do so.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot you're rebelling against anatomy. You still need to learn it though, Bend your own rules after you can show you don't 'need' them. As I keep saying the study is a foundation, if you knew that you would know you also still messed with the anthro's ribs when you pulled in the waist.

[notorious white moth]

If this doesn't get the point across, I don't know what will.

[Naidy]

I'm afraid to say that I see that the shoulders aren't wide enough. I do the same problem myself. This in turn makes the torso seem crushed between the arms and the waist incredibly thin.
Now I'm a girl myself and I can tell you neither I nor any woman you will ever meet will have a body like that, not even ones with a serious deformity.
This is why people are telling you to keep the rules of anatomy in hand when you draw the figure.

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u332/nengs10/cathiejungsmallestwaist.gif
this woman has the world's thinnest waist, but still, she has a wider waist than what you've drawn.
Think about that, mull it over.
then learn from that mistake and try again.

[notorious white moth]

And I don't care if you've done 20 before of those, do 100, do 1000. Don't stop until you're confident you could draw everything about the human body perfectly with your eyes closed.

I've been doing exactly that. Obsessively. Day and night. As I've already tried to explain.


right now your definition of feminine seems to be the life-time-of-wearing-corsets type

Bullshit! If you were paying attention you would realize THAT is the problem I'm trying to figure out how to FIX! The only reason the waist is so thin is because it has to be because the chest is so narrow because otherwise I end up with either no arms or the problem I had with the hyena girl. That's what I've spent the last dozen posts trying to explain--and illustrate!

[notorious white moth]

I'm afraid to say that I see that the shoulders aren't wide enough. I do the same problem myself. This in turn makes the torso seem crushed between the arms and the waist incredibly thin.
Now I'm a girl myself and I can tell you neither I nor any woman you will ever meet will have a body like that, not even ones with a serious deformity.
This is why people are telling you to keep the rules of anatomy in hand when you draw the figure.

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u332/nengs10/cathiejungsmallestwaist.gif
this woman has the world's thinnest waist, but still, she has a wider waist than what you've drawn.
Think about that, mull it over.
then learn from that mistake and try again.

Ok, now that you've finally started to try to tell me what I've been trying to tell you, the question is still HOW DO I FIX THIS PROBLEM

I knew what the problem was from the start. You're just starting to catch up--and still have yet to offer any insight toward a resolution

[Naidy]

Oh dear, watch your language would you? xD

Yes, I have to admit I got a little frustrated but don't we all?
Seriously, that's why I'm saying you have to keep up the studies.
Anyways, enough of that I'm happy to help.

Now, earlier I said that the shoulders are not wide enough -in relation to the head.
The style you're drawing in is what I'd call a variation of manga, and I know they go by slightly different rules.
If you want, I can try to draw a diagram myself between the different ways you can draw women, though it might take a wee while and I'm still a n00b myself so i'd be happy if you'd bear with me.

Does that sound allright to you?

[notorious white moth]

Thank you. I apologize for my negative behavior--I'm angry because I'm frustrated because I came here days ago saying "this is the problem, how do I fix it?" and it's taken this long to have someone explain to me--the one who pointed out the problem in the first place--like a grade school teacher talking to a six year old that yes what I said was the problem in the first place is indeed the problem.

[Naidy]

You're quite welcome. I think I understand your frustration to some extent too.
It took me a while to realize on this website that they like to help people help themselves.
When someone tells you to learn anatomy, it's their way of generally saying "I can see some inconsistencies in how you draw, perhaps you can spend some time getting to know bodies better" when all you want is to understand what's wrong in the first place.
I even once had someone tell me "Draw nothing from your imagination for a year, only study" and I was horrified, but I didn't fight them, I just decided to listen to them half way, every time I do something from my head I do a study first and slowly I'm learning how to see the problems myself.

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab227/Naidy-face/DSC02502.jpg

Right, back onto helping you.
This isn't perfect, I know.
But can you see that really, waists don't go in that much at all. Women generally have less wide shoulders than all over guys, and yes, they have thinner waists, but it isn't really as much as you'd think.
If you have anymore questions I'll be happy to do my best to help you.

Edit: As a small request though, I'd love you to post more anatomy studies, I know you hate them, but when I can see them I can help point out where you're going wrong a little easier.

[notorious white moth]

But can you see that really, waists don't go in that much at all. Women generally have less wide shoulders than all over guys, and yes, they have thinner waists, but it isn't really as much as you'd think.
As I've been trying to tell you, if I thought it went in that much this conversation never would have happened to begin with: the only reason I made the waist so narrow was because I had to because I had to make the chest so narrow because otherwise I would have ended up with either no arms or massive shoulders extending off the page. This whole conversation started with me asking how to fix that problem--a question that still hasn't actually been answered, though your diagram is a big help. You are again accusing me of trying to do exactly what I'm asking how to avoid. I'm the one that did the drawing, *I have an IQ of 138, and I hate being corrected when I'm right.

Edit: As a small request though, I'd love you to post more anatomy studies, I know you hate them,
I'll gladly post some more--who said anything about my hating anatomy studies? See above*.

[Naidy]

Aha, I know someone told you to pull in the waist instead of the whole torso and they were right.
You're a smart lad, judging by the IQ score you've given me. And you're on a sight full of smart people, so listen to what I'm about to say (the whole thing, not just little bits of it out of context)

If you are going for the cartoony look, then when you draw the head you can make the shoulders half a head wide on each side.
If your pictures go off the lines when you try this, then simply draw smaller. Many people do little sketches (stickmen, if you will) to make sure that this doesn't happen when they finish.

Keep on studying anatomy, bodies all have distinct rules they go by it's generally up to you to learn how they relate in size. For instance. If you draw a head that is an inch high when you know that a normal head might be around 8 and a half (I'm making a guess here for the sake of example, so please feel no need to correct) then you know everything else must be made smaller to the right proportion.

I'm guessing you're a scientific minded sort so think of people's bodies mathematically relating to eachother.

And I'm glad that you have no problems with learning anatomy. The reasons why everyone here constantly tells eachother to keep learning it is so that they can learn to teach themselves the right proportions and so on.

If you keep calm, don't jump at critisisms (because they are not there to make you feel bad) and simply keep studying in a month, a year, you'll see differences.

I know that answer may frustrate you but learning is a long process and you will succeed if you listen and learn how to learn.

[Naidy]

That reminds me, if you want to know more about how parts relate to eachother I'm sure Loomis is full of them. If you already know about him and the way he maps faces and bodies then I won't give you the links, if you don't then tell me and I'll send you some.

Again, I understand it's annoying that we all seem so vaige, but drawing in itself is composed of infinite things, just keep working at it and you'll see improvements.

[notorious white moth]

Ok, in keeping with your request I'm going to try not to take things out of context--if I do, I'm sorry.
First, you're now telling me to bring in the waist after telling me at least twice that I already made the waist too narrow--so I'm going to tell you again that the only reason the waist was as narrow as it was is because the chest was so narrow, and the only reason the chest was so narrow was to make room for the arms within the width of the pelvis, which in women is generally at least as wide as if not slightly wider than the shoulders. The problem has always been that there is not room within the width of the pelvis for both the arms and the chest. The problem with the waist is contingent on that. What I'm going to assume you mean is the waist, as a general rule, tapers inward from both the chest and the hips--which I already knew: anatomically the waist is the gap between the ribcage and the pelvis. The only bones there are the lumbar vertebrae and the distal ends of the floating ribs, the rest is filled in by the digestive tract--and in women the reproductive system. If you'll look at the drawing, however, you'll notice that there's very little room for the waist to taper because the chest is squeezed in between the arms. Broaden the chest and either the arms shrink into oblivion or the shoulders end up going significantly beyond the width of the pelvis, making the figure look like a man, as in the hyena girl. This--the problem of figuring out how to fit the arms and chest into the same space--is the problem I'm asking how to fix. This is what I've been trying to explain for the last four days.

I don't intend to stop working on anatomy--nor anything else that I can empirically say helps me improve as an artist.

I'm aware that in adult humans on average the head accounts for between one seventh and one eighth of the full height of the body. I'm also aware that the length of the hand from the base of the palm to the tip of the middle finger, the length of the foot from the point of the heel to the tip of the big toe, and the height of the face from the point of the chin to the brow ridge of the frontal bone are roughly the same, that the span of the arms is the same as the height of the body, that the forearm from the olecranon of the ulna to the tip of the middle finger is one fourth of the body's height, that the elbows line up with the navel which is centered in the front of the waist, that the wrists line up with the crotch--again, I could go on but is it really necessary? The single most comprehensive artistic study of the human figure was Leonardo da Vinci's The Vitruvian Man--which featured meticulous measurements of every dimension of every part of the body.

[Naidy]

It's all about balance lad.
You took in the waist, which was fine, but in context to the general considered proportions you took it in too far. This is why people before have mentioned photo refferences.

This is why you should keep up the the proportions learning which you are doing dilligently, that way when you draw a figure you can go "Aha! The head I have drawn is this wide, so the shoulders should be this wide which means the rib cage is that wide and the waist goes in this much" and so on. Use a ruler to start the plans if you have to, but right now it seems you go straight into a drawing and all this amazing knowledge of yours is left behind in the process.

Your underlining problem starts with the shoulders I'm afraid. Think of it as dominos.
You say you know alot about proportions and that's great, so just keep them in mind as you draw, I'm afraid it seems you will have to spend some time practicing making what appears in your head coincide with what ends up on paper.

So, in that aspect I can't really help unless I force a pencil in your hand and sit you infront of some paper, so good luck and just keep drawing.

[Jazz]

Hello there, Moth! I'm afraid this is going to be all talk, but I need to say this to you...

I've been reading through your posts, and my first impression was more negative, to say the least. But you must be feeling impatient to get these problems worked out. Do you feel trapped about it all? You might not want to hear this from someone else (maybe more than twice), but you're not alone in this artistic journey.

To get anywhere though, you NEED to calm down, focus yourself! You're trying to do different things at once, by the looks of your pictures, and you want MANY answers to surface! I'll tell you right now: that ain't happenin'! Okay? It won't just happen for you! And you might find yourself in a worse place if you keep up with this crazy sour attitude!

This art improvement isn't about your IQ or about your knowledge of the names of muscles, bones, etc. It's about you acting on your goals, getting creative with your knowledge, and trying to improve with your hands as well!

You need to work on your stuff with committment and not snap every time someone says something to you here. Naidy and some others have been kind enough to stick with you during your progress. This is a different setting and a person can sooner up and leave anyone's SB without so much as a word.

So I re-iterate, you have GOT to calm down!

It's time you focus your energy...what is one thing RIGHT NOW that you really could use some help with? I saw you were doing some gesture drawings. You seem to scribble them out and you don't have a definite gesture. You're looking at the movements, the curves of the figure...maybe even the mood! You bring it out in a gesture. You're not trying to make it look exactly like the figure, that's for more thorough work. You should see what I did before with gestures...very stiff because I was looking at the wrong thing. I wasn't focusing on how the person posed or moved, and I lacked confidence to give them more oomph. I changed that an STILL am. It's hard work to create even a fluid gesture at first, but the more you do it, the more your hand will glide and enjoy the draw as much as your brain does. ;)

That being said, I also noticed you talking about making the waist in a picture narrow because you had to make the chest so narrow. What's happening really is that you're squishing the waist because of the chest. You may have to widen the chest...and to do that you'll have to move other parts outward perhaps. You may not want to deal with correcting things so often, but you will have to! The more you do it, the more you can tolerate doing it. :) I kid you not, this is from my own experience.

So you may not get it right the first time; you'll need to work over it sometimes, or start from scratch. That's fine! It'll save you more time and you'll see results by comparing earlier work anyway. If tracing paper might help you correct things, I suggest you try that! It sure helps ME! I know I need tracing paper like crazy when I'm bringing a sketch to inking status.

I'll just end this. If you need anymore help, I'm very thorough, and I'll help you when I can. If you don't, that's fine, no hard feelings. :D I understand...there are some artists who don't really get why they give advice like "Look up so'n'so books!" but usually artists know because they've dealt with similar issues. So give this journey some time, okay?

BTW, references are wonderful--pros use reference as well. It's not so much that you're copying verbatim everything that is in a reference...but if you can see better (and more frequently) what you're trying to get on paper so you can later elaborate on that idea, then it's worth looking at and studying. Especially where everything won't stand still for long enough. :P

Oh, and the other thing: to edit your title, in your first post go to Edit > Go Advanced and you can edit your title there. Just save changes after and you're all good. :D

[bubblesaw]

The first step to becoming a better artist is to learn to take criticism in. :)

[notorious white moth]

Thank you very much for that wall of text, Jazz (for everyone else if you don't want to dig through my own wall of text, just use the find feature to look up TL;DR)--after I sorted out what exactly was going on (which took me about half a week of frustration) I calmed down significantly

Do you feel trapped about it all? You might not want to hear this from someone else (maybe more than twice), but you're not alone in this artistic journey.
The one thing someone who feels alone needs to hear more than anything is "you're not alone"--but it's easy to feel alone when it takes so much time and effort to explain that all the problems other people are pointing out are the results of the one I'm asking for help with in the first place because if I could fix the one, that in itself would fix the others.

You're trying to do different things at once, by the looks of your pictures, and you want MANY answers to surface!
If you read the text that went along with those pictures you would notice that I was looking for a grand total of one answer--the rest was trying to weed out the refuse and get to the heart of the problem.

This art improvement isn't about your IQ or about your knowledge of the names of muscles, bones, etc. It's about you acting on your goals, getting creative with your knowledge, and trying to improve with your hands as well!
I know that--probably better than a lot of people. My point was that I'm not an idiot and I quickly get fed up with being treated like one.

Naidy and some others have been kind enough to stick with you during your progress. This is a different setting and a person can sooner up and leave anyone's SB without so much as a word.
I've tried to be patient, to apologize for my frustration, and to express my appreciation for the time and effort Naidy and equilerex in particular have put into trying to help me.

It's time you focus your energy...what is one thing RIGHT NOW that you really could use some help with?
The thing I've been trying to make sense of for the last four days, which I realized this afternoon is the context of the scapula.

I saw you were doing some gesture drawings. You seem to scribble them out and you don't have a definite gesture. You're looking at the movements, the curves of the figure...maybe even the mood! You bring it out in a gesture. You're not trying to make it look exactly like the figure, that's for more thorough work.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. It's hard to tell what you're saying I do and what you're saying I should do. The parts that I'm pretty sure you're saying I should do--just like the problems I've already been dealing with--I'm seeing a whole lot of "what" and not a single word of "how".

That being said, I also noticed you talking about making the waist in a picture narrow because you had to make the chest so narrow. What's happening really is that you're squishing the waist because of the chest. You may have to widen the chest...and to do that you'll have to move other parts outward perhaps.
That's what I said--the waist because of the chest, the chest because of the arms. That's the point I've been trying to get across. The other drawing was my best example of the wrong way to fix the problem.

You may not want to deal with correcting things so often, but you will have to!
This is exactly what I do want to do, the problem is I don't know how, which is what I've spent the last four days trying to explain.

So you may not get it right the first time; you'll need to work over it sometimes, or start from scratch. That's fine! It'll save you more time and you'll see results by comparing earlier work anyway.
I'm not expecting it to be quick and easy--nothing worthwhile ever is.

but if you can see better (and more frequently) what you're trying to get on paper so you can later elaborate on that idea,
Therein lies the problem.

Oh, and the other thing: to edit your title, in your first post go to Edit > Go Advanced and you can edit your title there. Just save changes after and you're all good. :D
Thanks, it's finally been fixed--also, this is the first response to actually answer one of my questions.

I'd identified the "what" from the beginning--though it took me until today to pinpoint the source of the "what". The problem isn't the "what". It's generally a good idea to assume that the genius who did the drawing knows what they're talking about when they tell you what they need help with. I see patterns, I make connections, I understand cause and effect--so when I say that the problem with the waist is a result of the problem with the chest, which is in turn a result of the problem with the arms, which is ultimately a problem in understanding the positioning of the scapula in relation to the soft tissue of the shoulder, it's because in the process of drawing, reflecting, and studying, knowing my own patterns and thought processes, and being familiar enough with what I wanted to draw--and with the human body in general--to know what, where, and why my mistakes were, I've managed to figure out causal relationships among the details. When I ask a question, don't tell me what you think I want to hear, answer the question that I'm asking--because if the answer to the question I'm asking weren't what I wanted to hear, I'd be asking a different question.
The only answer I've gotten (with one exception--thank you again Jazz) was "what" when I already knew "what" better than the people answering. The answer that's going to help me isn't "what". The answer that's going to help me is the one that answers the question I've been asking over and over and over.
That question is HOW
HOW do I fix the problem with the scapulae, and thereby the chest and shoulders, and thereby the waist? (let me break that one down)
How do I fix the problem with the waist? By fixing the problem with the chest.
How do I fix the problem with the chest? By fixing the problem with the shoulders.
How do I fix the problem with the shoulders? By fixing the problem with the scapulae.
So how do I fix the problem with the scapulae? That's the question I've been asking for four days. I'm not really much closer to an answer than I was four days ago because instead of helping me find an answer everyone's been telling me everything else that's wrong with the drawing because of this one problem in as much trivial detail as they possibly can. Everyone I've asked how has only told me why. I'm not looking for more reasons to fix the scapulae--I've got a whole laundry list of those; (TL;DR version of the last four days: ) what I'm looking for is a method of fixing the scapulae. (end tl;dr) My best friend suggested trial and error--I'm hoping for something a little more consistent, but at least his suggestion actually made an attempt to answer the question I asked.
HOW do I get what I need out of references without forfeiting what I want?
HOW do I capture the gesture in gesture drawings?
HOW do I fix the typo the name of the thread? (I really do appreciate that, Jazz)
HOW do I convince this community that all the "what"s and "why"s in the world are worthless when the question is HOW?

[notorious white moth]

The first step to becoming a better artist is to learn to take criticism in. :)

I don't have a problem with accepting criticism, in fact I quite encourage it--when it is in fact legitimate criticism. I have apologized to both Naidy and equilerex a number of times, and thanked both of them and Jazz for what little of what they've told and shown can honestly be considered help. What I have a problem with is people talking down to me, explaining things to me that I've already shown them I already knew, and answering my questions with irrelevant information that they got from me in the first place--i.e., treating me like an idiot.

[bubblesaw]

I don't have a problem with accepting criticism--when it is in fact legitimate criticism. I have apologized to both Naidy and equilerex a number of times, and thanked both for their help. What I have a problem with is people explaining things to me that I've already shown them I already knew and answering my questions with irrelevant information that they got from me in the first place--i.e., treating me like an idiot.

that is what you are not understanding. Everyone here is trying to help. If their comments make you feel like an idiot, it's your problem ! Think about it, why would anybody want to put you down. It's in nobody's interest.

Here is something i did to try to help you. It sucks but maybe it'll help

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l324/gablain/111.jpg

[notorious white moth]

Thank you, Bubblesaw. Your redline edit? That is a critique. That is also the first attempt I've seen at actually addressing the issue that started this whole mess in the first place. Now if you would actually read the multiple pages of responses I keep typing, you might see what I mean about the information I'm receiving being dumbed down versions of what I had already said or shown in the first place--which does not constitute criticism.

[bubblesaw]

well that is probably because most people just look at your drawing, and base their comment on that rather than reading through all the debates. But we should stop talking about that and start drawing. Me included lol :P

My advice is to keep your questions short and simple :)

Good luck

[Naidy]

If people keep saying the same things, it's probably because they might be onto something you aren't opening up to the idea of yet. So perhaps you should change your definition of "bad advice"

HOW do I get what I need out of references without forfeiting what I want?
Say you're going to draw your female character sitting on a log, you will thus have to find a picture of a woman sitting. They don't have to be exact, they don't have to be on a log. As long as they are sitting you can take note of how they're posed in the refference and make the necissary adjustments in your own picture-e.g hair and clothes.

HOW do I fix the problem with the scapulae, and thereby the chest and shoulders, and thereby the waist?

One word: Proportions.
I've seen you've earlier said that you can't see the point of trying to measure something that doesn't exist.
But put it this way; if I want to draw anything - lets say a person, it will have to be recognised as a person to everyone that sees it, including yourself.
Hence you have to figure the measurements of normal people and then APPLY it to what you draw.
I'm not going to spam Loomis links at you, but I will say there are books around that can show you easier ways of remembering proportions and how they relate.

Learn proportions, experiment with them and have fun. (if you already 'know' proportions then just keep brushing up on them and listen more to the last two)
You want to learn art and you're serious about it so there's no need for frustration (even if this doesn't answer your question) if we're not helping just say "to hell with this, I'm going to figure it out myself!" which you've probably done by now.

SO as a last note, I'd like to see more drawings from you and less jibberjabber (why not draw before you reply to us and then post it after you're done?)

[RoisterDoister]

hi, white moth.

I've read through this entire thread and I've got to say, I don't think anyone is trying or even wants to patronise you, just give you the best advice they can.

I'm a little confused as to what you want from us though, nobody seems to have satisfied you yet, so here's my attempt;

1. Widen the waist.
2. Widen the chest.
3. Widen the shoulders so there's still room for the arms.

The most glaring mistake to me is the width of the waist, it definitely needs to be wider. You seem to know all about bone structure, so make sure you when you draw you keep in mind the ribcage and pelvis widths.

[Jazz]

Glad to help you with that part, Moth. It's a tricky one... ;) Now then, for another "wall o' text":

Look, it is difficult for me to physically read and keep that amount of text in my memory, so I won't bother looking back AGAIN. :) You seem to have a better idea of what you're looking for as far as "how". Naidy actually gave an answer that I was going to give: Measurements. They are WONDERFUL to use, and I suggest you look up methods of doing this around CA. There are probably some VERY useful threads about using measurements.

And just to answer these questions:

HOW do I get what I need out of references without forfeiting what I want?

You just don't overuse them; don't depend on the whole reference to splash an awesome picture on your page. You work with references and they work FOR you.

References aren't there to suck away your creativity or mindset on a picture. You might want to get an understanding of the elements within that reference, so you can more accurately portray what you want in your own work. This includes shapes and form, texture, lighting, perspective, etc. You can then use what you understand to apply it to your own work. You're looking at the whole picture as well as narrowing down the elements within. If/when you find elements that will help you improve on what you're doing (including practice), that reference will have been of some help to you.

All that being said, your best and most accurate reference is from life itself. If you're ever worried about using references TOO MUCH, draw objects, people and places wherever to have access. When you DON'T have access to a subject that you really want to use, references are SO handy.

HOW do I capture the gesture in gesture drawings?

This one's harder for me to explain, so I will send you to Vilppu with his gesture drawing help:

http://www.awn.com/mag/issue3.3/3.3pages/3.3vilppudrawing.html

He's a master drawing instructor, and a pal of mine showed me his page while I too was struggling. The reason it's hard for me to explain is because I'll just be babbling on, you might lose me and that's not what I want for you. There are things you're looking for in your subject that you want to express in the gesture. Anyway, if you look over that, it might really help you out!

HOW do I convince this community that all the "what"s and "why"s in the world are worthless when the question is HOW?

You can't because those questions ARE useful, and "why" is VERY useful, especially when you're composing a piece of work or something. "Why does light reflect from THIS side while the sun is shining from the opposite side?"--"Reflecting from an adjacent surface that is also getting lit by the sun." And so on.

Last thing: NO ONE is treating you like an idiot here! No one knows what you know, and vice-versa. You surely don't know anyone's intentions here! If you feel alone, treating someone like they're a jerk to you won't help you feel better. I know this much because I'd been at that point for some years now. I want you feeling comfortable with tackling the subjects you're approaching, and I'm not the only one.

Now, even though I know you've been genuine in your apology, I just feel that I can't help you. All we'll do is talk back and forth. PM me if you need to respond to me, but I can't return. Good success in your journey, okay? Like the others said, enough talk! Time to walk! Time to get to it, and don't worry if it takes you awhile.

[notorious white moth]

I needed a break for a few days to digest some of the last week--and just to get some of the emotion out of my system. At least this time it was days, not months.

[Naidy]

Very good! I really like these posts, and glad you're back and posting pictures. :D

[notorious white moth]

thanks ^^ I obviously need a lot of work on faces though :/

[Naidy]

Ah, same here. But I like the second post, was she from refference?

[notorious white moth]

no, that was from imagination, a new character of mine--and personally I think the facial features somehow seem too big or otherwise distorted
thank you though

in other news, zwarrior has agreed to mentor me, which I'm very excited about, so expect a lot of upcoming art coming out of that

[RoisterDoister]

Your art's definitely coming along, liking the anatomy studies especially. : ) The more of them the better.

As for the girl's facial features- her eyes are slightly too big and her mouth slightly to small, but that's easily fixable I'm sure. Perhaps focussing on making your lineart a bit less sketchy by drawing firmer, more confident lines would be beneficial too.

[BenjaminL]

Hi, I have just stumbled upon your sketchbook and am seeing progress.

If you want to work on faces, then you need to learn the rules. "RULES?!?!", you say? Well, you do need to learn the rules FIRST, then you can learn when it is okay to break certain rules to go for a certain effect. Also, you will find that if you never bend the rules, all of your faces will look the same. So, no, you don't have to cling to the rules like the dickens, but you do need to understand them.

There should be many resources available on the web to help you learn to draw faces (and figures in general.) However, I would suggest picking up a book or two. There is just something about physically having a book on a shelf behind your desk that you can go to, mark in and dog ear all you want.

Best of luck, I look forward to your progress.

[notorious white moth]

just a couple proportion studies

[notorious white moth]

life's been hectic lately, should have something new to post soon

[notorious white moth]

This was tedious.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/mf.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/mb.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/ml.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/mr.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/ff.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/fb.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/fl.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/fr.jpg

[notorious white moth]

had some minor issues getting the sketchbook lined up on the scanner
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularmf1.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularmb1.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularff1.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularfb1.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularmf2.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularmb2.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularff2.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularfb2.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularmf3.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularmb3.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularff3.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/angularfb3.jpg

[notorious white moth]

this one was kinda fun--a little chaotic though
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/disposableposablef.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/disposableposables.jpg

[notorious white moth]

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/poses.jpg can't really account for it, but feels off somehow..

[notorious white moth]

Shading work; fifth image is property of Andrew Loomis' estate.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/shaderef1.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/shaderef2.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/sphereshade.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/geoshade.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/shadingquiz.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/crumple.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/faceshade.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/notorious_white_moth/stilllife.jpg