Are you ever going to get married and settle down?

[Werewolf]

It seems like in our society we all are doing the same thing. Here's the basic overview. Your born. You go through school. You go through college(or not). You pick a career and stick to it. You do the job(s). You find a woman, get married, have kids. Raise the kids as you do your job until you retire. By which time you are old and wrinkly. That is if you are lucy(not all make it to old age). You then start to fall apart, along with your wife. You die. Your sons go through the same cycle. Heck, everybody goes through the same never ending circle of life.

Which brings me to this. What's the point of doing the same thing that billions of other people have done it before? Is it even worth it? You can try it but why go through all the way to the end? For experience? You love life? What's the point? What would you say say to this? What is your plan? And if you are already on the boat, how's the ride? Is it any different than before?

[Elwell]

And if you are already on the boat, how's the ride?
Awesome.

[BuckWeisel]

yeah! living life has been done to death.

[DavePalumbo]

I'm actually surprised how many people I know (mostly girls strangely enough) who are very vocal about never wanting to either get married, have kids, or both. :shrug:

[DarkConcept]

No. I can't have kids and I'm never going to get married and settle down. Not with the current laws at any rate.

As to what's the point of it all... Well, you've gotta do something until you croak. And it's not as if divorce isn't done.

[Mirana]

I've been engaged longer than I dated. It's too expensive to get married and I'm not patient enough to have kids and not end up in jail after I murder them (see icon).

[reidaj]

On the boat, and it is sweet.

As for your bigger question, from a biological perspective, the only purpose in life is to propagate the species. If that sounds a little limiting, then take comfort that at least your on top of the food chain. ;) Actually, come to think of it, the life of a lesser species, like a cat, wouldn't be all that bad. Lay around all day, play with some yarn, chase mice. Repeat.

[Grief]

the term 'settle down' is a bit elusive to me. i don't understand exactly what it means other than a vague sense of what it implies.

i.... well this is going to sound really corny, but i believe in love. ive only been able to experience fragments of it though. mere pieces i have been unable to connect together and appreciate in its entirety. i am confident i have found the source of it, a person i can devote myself to wholly. but the situation is embedded in the reciprocation of that love not being directed back at all times. i struggle to make things work in my pathetic attempts to control my own life.

i know only the process of pursuing love, i have yet to achieve and grasp it. art is the byproduct of this adventure as i document my triumphs and failures.

i suppose 'settling down 'is the acquisition of obtaining that which i desire.
or perhaps 'settling down' is having the objective of love firmly in sight although i do not possess it yet.

i am not sailing on that boat. i am sunken in a deep sea of resolve, wading through obstacles to climb into the sunlight, determined and adamant to never drown in failure. i do not know what awaits on that shore. Where my life and adventures would lead, should i ever reach this goal. a family, children, a career, its all out of reach in the future, a mysterious place i cannot be.

i am told to stop living in false hopes of the future, that my dreams of obtaining the Love i seek are too slim to entertain the idea of capturing. but i can't give up, i want no other. I'll bring her the sea one spoonful at a time should it please her, abandoning my hopes for a more accessible girl is a coward's way of dealing with an unfavorable predicament.

is it worth it?
the pursuit seems to be all i have ever known, my sole purpose to dedicate anything and all to achieving. it guides my art, it inspires my every move, it feeds my passion to succeed. why do you live your life if you arent 100% commited to what you do? be passionate, be intense, do not be weak, make your life epic.

now go fucking draw.

[Dirty C]

I'm actually surprised how many people I know (mostly girls strangely enough) who are very vocal about never wanting to either get married, have kids, or both. :shrug:

i've often found that anyone with a strong opinion about a way of life will tend to flip to the opposite in an equally strong way. people like to wrap themselves in conviction like it's armour.

[Slash]

6-4VOLeKBOw

[ArmoredGorilla]

Ok, Im gonna get nerdy here.

As for your bigger question, from a biological perspective, the only purpose in life is to propagate the species.

I get what you really mean but technically, 'life' is concerned with propagating its own, specific genes; not the whole species. Actually, it'd be most accurate to say its the genes that are interested in propagating themselves and that the organisms (i.e. life) are merely their vehicles.

So, from a biological perspective, we go through the cycle Werewolf describes because it tends to offer our genes a reliable, repeatable method of surviving, replicating, and providing for the offspring which carry our 'selfish' genes into the future. At least thats what Dawkins would say.

[Mirana]

Damn you, Slash. Now I have to put that CD in.

[reidaj]

I get what you really mean but technically

Technicalities aside, like I said, I've often thought being a cat might be an enjoyable existence, although I wouldn't be that crazy about the whole ass licking bit :)

[Dirty C]

**don't bother reading this post if you're not interested in evolutionary theory**

Wassup AG. Personally I was never that big a fan of Richard Dawkins. I understand the metaphor of the selfish gene but really think it's exactly that. A metaphor.

The thing Dawkins never really took into account in his argument - and I know I'm picking a fight with a titan here - is that sexual selection is the be all and end all. You can have the biggest brain on the planet or even the biggest cock, but if you're ugly as sin, your chances of reproducing are greatly limited. Big Dick always seemed to focus on the mechanics without looking at the overall logic of the situation.

The other thing is that I've always felt it glosses over the role of 'junk dna' too much. There's a bunch of theory which talk about this in one way or another, but Genetic Load or Muller's Ratchet cover it best. Too big a difference genetically will lock you out of the gene pool, and you can't get less complex. Like Irene said in a different context, you can't unlearn what you already know. So the species as an entity has momentum - because mating with something of another genus is generally speaking impossible.

Basically what I'm getting at here is that anthropologists and biologists think in slightly different ways. And Richard Dawkin's explanation always came across like an anthropologist who had studied biology but from an anthropologist's standpoint. Most of the geneticists I knew didn't think that much of him. But he did a great job of explaining difficult stuff to the masses, so obviously he deserves a lot of credit.

Course I'm not assuming you're not familiar with what I'm talking about - just never get the chance to talk about this stuff anymore :)

[James Kei]

I'm actually surprised how many people I know (mostly girls strangely enough) who are very vocal about never wanting to either get married, have kids, or both. :shrug:

This seems to be the case in Japan and in Italy, where the population is declining because the younger generation simply have no interest in getting married or having children.
So I guess we don't have to worry about over-population eh?

[Dirty C]

Kei, I know for a fact you've seen Idiocracy. Be careful what you wish for!!

[light]

i dunno billions of people have eaten and breathed and i still kinda like doing that i guess im a comfortmist

[TheBladeRoden]

I'd need to get a job and a girlfriend first.

[Coinpurse]

No one knows until it happens :D
Talking is just a concept.

[central]

I laugh in the face of marriage and kids ... hahahahaha

[NoSeRider]

Are you ever going to get married and settle down?

It's about keeping up with the Jones's.

Besides the people that told you that, like your parents, found jobs that would last 20 or 30 years with great retirement benefits.

Now you're lucky if can find a decent 401k plan and make enough money to support one kid, two divorces and one house.

We got over 6 billion people on this planet. Let somebody else procreate. There's enough people already.

[GebbethLord]

Well, I hate children, so I certainly dont plan to raise any. So, I wont be entirely like the majority of the worlds population. But I'll still get married, buy a house and get a job...

[solitude]

I don't ever want kids and I don't believe in marriage. Not so much that I look down on married people for conforming or anything like that I just don't see the point (apart from legal things… Money, rights of the father etc. but that's wrong in itself so) If there's love why does there need to be marriage? If there are religious reasons I don't get it in a lot of cases either since in most religions God is supposed to know everything already so it’s not like you have to prove a point to him. As for kids there are endless reasons I could ramble on about that make that a categorical NO.

[Serpian]

I believe humans are more than complex biological machines, and that we have a greater purpose. Life has more meaning than to propagate the species/genes/whatever. And kids are friggin cute.

[Farsh]

NEVER! I REFUSE TO CONFORM TO YOUR STANDARDS OF ACH-

Uh - check with me again in ten years.

[wassermelone]

There are a lot of reasons for 'marriage' other than just religious or social reasons.

Tax benefits, being able to visit your loved one in the hospital etc. etc.

Why do you think homosexual couples want 'marriage'? Its not because they think it will take their relationships to a whole new level. When Bill gets injured, Jason wants to be able to hold his hand in the hospital.

*edit
And nothing against those people who hate kids and don't ever want to marry... its certainly your choice, and its a valid one at that.... but I've seen quite a lot of people with those views start to think about getting married and having kids.

[JessiBean]

I'm just romantic, I think, and I see marriage as an awfully special thing. I believe there's someone out there who will fill in your gaps and challenge you and kick your butt enough to make you want to be with them forever. I'm happily finding my way towards that person even now...

And cheers to those who find it and stick with it.
:heart:

[Ryuartyi]

I probably will once I'm around my late 20's, just because I have my career I want to work on (see my sig), and I don't want to screw this up for me. I haven't found time to have a girlfriend, let alone thinking about marriage.

[AphexTweak]

Happily married with a 1 year old son and loving life. Not to say that life is with out any struggles, but to come home to two people who love you unconditionally is an amazing feeling and gives life that much more purpose. This path may not be for everyone, but I am sure glad I'm on it.

[solitude]

There are a lot of reasons for 'marriage' other than just religious or social reasons.

Tax benefits, being able to visit your loved one in the hospital etc. etc.

Why do you think homosexual couples want 'marriage'? Its not because they think it will take their relationships to a whole new level. When Bill gets injured, Jason wants to be able to hold his hand in the hospital.

*edit
And nothing against those people who hate kids and don't ever want to marry... its certainly your choice, and its a valid one at that.... but I've seen quite a lot of people with those views start to think about getting married and having kids.

I know these things, but I also think it's wrong that you have to be married to have these benefits in the first place.

Having said that I'm for gay marraige as an issue of equality, not because I think people should be married because A, B and C reasons etc... It's different if there's kids or if you're claiming for someone/supporting your partner (again, why can't you do this anyway?) but otherwise I don't see why anyone should get tax benefits.

[Meli Hitchcock]

"Are you ever going to get married and settle down?"

Probably not but that doesn't mean I won't ever get married either. Personally, I've had nothing but bad luck just when it comes to finding someone to date and as I get older, I just believe my odds of finding anyone remotely interested in me get smaller and smaller. Not that I care, I rather like the single life and my desire to be in a relationship gets smaller as the years tick away. And, as a chick, kids mean I have to put my whole life on hold and I'm not willing to do that. Pregnancy freaks me out and I am not fond of babies at all.

[Ilaekae]

"Are you ever going to get married and settle down?"







...mmmmm...nah. Prob'ly not... :P

[tomwaits4noman]

i believe marriage was invented by divorce lawyers

[Serra]

Which brings me to this. What's the point of doing the same thing that billions of other people have done it before? Is it even worth it? You can try it but why go through all the way to the end? For experience? You love life? What's the point? What would you say say to this? What is your plan? And if you are already on the boat, how's the ride? Is it any different than before?

I understand your dilemma but honestly...I think it's silly to jump ship on certain things just because "it's been done." That's not a good enough excuse. So what if thousands of generations have lived, eaten, breathed, worked, died? Those milestones are usually natural milestones. People don't fall in love because others TELL them to, it's because they find someone that captivates them and they want to share their lives. We generally grow old because we enjoy where our lives are going and decide to stick with it as long as possible. Obviously there are some deviations and different paths along the way, but I think that everyone's lives are basically the same. There are a few "choose your own adventure" moments where I turn to page 70 and Joe Schmoe goes to pg. 85, but the story is still the same.

I am going where my actions take me. So far I've ended up in love with the best guy I've ever met, I'll be graduating from college this semester, and then the boyfriend and I will try our hand at poverty and happiness. And I am perfectly content with that. I want the ring and the babies and the PTA (okay well maybe not that but you get my drift). I don't feel I'm a "conformist" for wanting those things. I feel like it's just what's right for me. It may not be right for you, but if that's the case then don't do it.

There is no "point". Things just ARE. Maybe some have the destiny or ambition to change the world but for the majority of us, we just exist and then don't exist at some point. And for some people it's really great. So if you are finding it's great, then don't worry so much about it. If it's not so great...then change things until it is.

--Serra

p.s. Meli Hitchcock: Pregnancy does tend to be reminiscent of that scene in Alien, but far more drawn out and with more vomiting and crankiness... ;)

[Mike Frank]

When Mu-chou was asked: "We dress and eat every day, and how do we escape from having to put on clothes and eat food?“

He answered, "We dress, we eat."

"I don't understand", said the monk.

"If you don't understand, put on your clothes and eat your food."

[Obsidian Glynn]

Well....I plan on getting married and maybe having one kid. After the one either me or my husband is getting fixed.

I think you don't have to be married to love and be with some one, but I do want that special thing that comes with marriage. I can't explain my feelings but I'm just a hopeless romantic.

[Sepulverture]

I tried that whole marriage thing once. It was saweet for a while. Then things turned sour on pretty short order. I got off that boat, hopefully I'll get back on soon enough with someone who I'm a little more in tune with.

[Blue]

What is your plan? And if you are already on the boat, how's the ride? Is it any different than before?

When I'm happy i draw more. When I'm sad i write more. So i've been drawing a lot more for the past few years. Having someone to go through the journey in life is a very nice feeling, even when you argue or get in tiffs. You find the highest high you had when you were alone, is still lower then the lowest low you have when you have someone you love.

It is all biological though, kids especially. It's kinda like eating something delicious over something pure nutrition. Sure you can make plenty of justifications as to why vitamins and celery sticks will extend your life, but even if you put on a pound, you feel such pleasure from eating that chocolate bar. So much so, that you might grow a taste for chocolate, and just work out more to get rid of that pound.

[Professor Az]

Are you ever going to get married and settle down?

Too late. Like, 25 years too late. :P

[Flake]

Already settled down, no real urge to get married.

[Wooly ESS]

I was born. I went through school. I went through college. I picked a career and I stuck to it. I found a woman, got married, had kids. I raised my kids, and did my job and retired. I'm not too wrinkly and old. I had, am having, and will continue to have a blast!

What's the point of doing the same thing billions of other people have done before? You do it because that's what people do. I suspect there's a reason for it. It doesn't keep me awake at night.

If you can find something better to do, then you had better get doing it! You're born and then you're dead. What happens in between is entirely up to you. Only you can make it meaningful.

As for me, I am entering my first art show in a week's time

[N D Hill]

I'll get married when find a woman who will let me name the kids after the Herculoids.

In all seriousness, marriage could be nice. Though I don't necessarily feel the need to spawn.

[Sickbrush]

yes, i'd get married.
settle down? what do you mean by that? will i still paint? pff hell yea.
so i see no big issue here.
[btw, this resembles the marko - jelena djurdjevic discussion]

[Ilaekae]

To be absolutely serious, I was first married in 1966. The second time was 1970, still in effect...

No one involved was, is, or ever will be "settled down," let alone sane/normal/whatever...

[Chingwa]

I've been married for 7 years. Neither my wife nor I ever plan on having kids. ever. people look at us like we're aliens, as if to say "why's you get married if you're not having kids"...

...people just don't get it.



Live your life they way you want and do what you want to do.... anything else is just a waste.

[gruve24]

Only FOOLS get married, Settling down is for people who have given up on life. Marriage is a piece of paper that allows the government to be involved in your personal life whether you like it or not. I don't live to provide for women, I live for my own happiness.

Hopefully alot of you guys won't run into the true nature of most women..but marriage ensures them that if anything goes wrong in a relationship...they can (and WILL) take half or more of everything you own.

[Tselitel']

Sure, sure. Love and settling down is great, but I'm more interested in what happens next when you die.

[sve]

To be absolutely serious, I was first married in 1966. The second time was 1970, still in effect...

No one involved was, is, or ever will be "settled down," let alone sane/normal/whatever...

You mean you have an open marriage? :). Not that anything's wrong with it :).

[Flake]

Only FOOLS get married, Settling down is for people who have given up on life.
And the award for "Sweeping Generalisation of the Week" goes to...

Hopefully alot of you guys won't run into the true nature of most women..but marriage ensures them that if anything goes wrong in a relationship...they can (and WILL) take half or more of everything you own.
Someone got dumped.
Never mind, plenty more fish in the sea, no need to be bitter. :)

[pongopoo]

[QUOTE=Werewolf;1652345]It seems like in our society we all are doing the same thing. Here's the basic overview. Your born. You go through school. You go through college(or not). You pick a career and stick to it. You do the job(s). You find a woman, get married, have kids. Raise the kids as you do your job until you retire. By which time you are old and wrinkly. That is if you are lucy(not all make it to old age). You then start to fall apart, along with your wife. You die. Your sons go through the same cycle. Heck, everybody goes through the same never ending circle of life.
************************************************** *****

"IN OUR SOCIETY"
says it all.
Everyone who feels the need to belong to something called
*OUR SOCIETY* - feels they also MUST keep the rules - ie - appear to be 'normal' and
the 'same' as or at least similar to - everyone else.
OR the risk is there - of LOSING the 'society' and being all that 'outsider' implies. eg - Rejected, alone, ignored, unwanted,...

I love best - being an artist - in that an essential part of it is
that I have no *society* of that kind.
There is no club or group I 'need' to belong to
No community - that I feel so important - that I would
sacrifice anything I hold dear - to its cause.

All that I love - has no 'society' to sustain it.
I - and all I love
are self sustaining, along with that microscopic part - of all that I know of a remarkable unknowable mysterious universe.

Pongopoo spake.

[kovah]

Been with my bf for three and abit years, we moved in together into his flat and me out of home november before last and things are going well. From the outset we are both completely different, he is mathsy and logical and i'm crazy artist girl.

At the present time i have no desire to get married, or have kids (seems like a lot of effort and i hate wearing dresses. But if i'm gonna heave a wedding i am going to do it properly) It suits some people i guess but i dont feel like upsetting the setup we have now because of tradition or instinct.

[Dizon]

Marriage? It's possible in the future, but I need to find some lovin' first.

[phoenicorn]

don't know how i feel bout the whole relationship thing. 1 side of me likes the idea of having someone there for me but on the other side i like my solitude. i suppose i will try the whole relationship thing again 1 day but after my last break up where she made some prety nasty and untrue accusations to her father (we were both 15 at the time) i suppose the sting is still there.

[Duman]

Three words. I HATE CHILDREN.

[Vhan Juju]

I honestley have no idea why I'm takeing part of this discussion! lmao, I must be board.

I think that one day I'll get married, but I'm going to hold off on haveing kids for as long as possibe (I.e. waiting for the day me and my spouce start getting board with "just us" ya know, like 14 years after we are married, then have kids)

I'll "settledown" but I'm going to keep things fresh, Like deidacateing a entire room in the house to just, painting, drawing, all over the walls! fingerpainting, pastel, charcoal, acryillic, sure! Well paint over it eventually, but go for it!

[gruve24]

Why would anyone get married ??? What is the purpose ???? Why are people willingly LOCKING themselves into something that is permanent ???

waiting for the day me and my spouce start getting board with "just us" ya know, like 14 years after we are married, then have kidsWhile NOT uncommon is one of the STUPIDEST most costly Reasons for having children. "Because you are bored". If your bored maybe you need to improve your own life..instead of using kids as an escape from your loveless boredom.

and you know what else....even NOW you know you will NOT love the person your with over time..you will grow tired of her/him. Why not enjoy the good times you had with that person and move on to someone else ??? Why put yourself through the torture of living a miserable UNhappy life with someone your bored of ??

[eskanto]

wow. sounds like someone is bitter. gruve24, MARRIAGE is not permanent for alot of people. Many get remarried more than once. My mother is an example. Live your life. Fall in love. Handle responsibilities with someone you trust and possibly grow with them. HAVE AN ADULT RELATIONSHIP.

[Hyskoa]

I have no need for it now. I probably won't have a need for it 5-8 years from now either. I'll be 31 by then. I'll re-evaluate the situation then.
Kidswise, well, I'm not done with "me" yet. Nor will I be done with "me" for the next 10-15 years. I'll be 38 by then. After that I'll re-evaluate the situation.

For me, at present, the point of kids is, you're just giving up the best years of your life as well as money just to make sure your last name is kept and maybe 8 years out of 20 that are enjoyable to correspond with an over cognitive family pet.
I have no problem with my last name dying with me. Keeps me original.

[Rist]

What does that word mean, 'married'.

[Flake]

and you know what else....even NOW you know you will NOT love the person your with over time..you will grow tired of her/him.
Well, 12 years and counting, not bored yet. My grandparents managed 50 or so. The whole "death" thing knocked that one on the head though.

Why put yourself through the torture of living a miserable UNhappy life with someone your bored of ??
Again, you make these completely illogical assumptions. Go and stand in the corner..

What if I'm not tortured, miserable or bored? What if I'm having a fine old time living with a smart, sexy, fun loving nerd chick who drinks pints, likes metal and understands the offside rule?

Your logic needs work, read a book. Not a magazine, not an article. A book.

[alesoun]

Ah, phooey! I've been married 22 years and no time off for good behaviour.....

We fight, we squabble, we sulk, we love, we disagree and we (mostly) work as a team.

Marriage ain't for the faint of heart.... and it sure ain't complying with other people's rules....

Do what you want; just don't tell me what I should do, or call me conventional for doing it,- that's your values versus my reality

[Darjan Jurincic]

getting married for sure..and with lot of kids
nothing better than waking up beside a pair of eyes u would die for...

[Flake]

We fight, we squabble, we sulk, we love, we disagree and we (mostly) work as a team.

And that's what the teenage philosophers in the thread are utterly incapable of understanding. A good marriage / relationship is not so much a religious/society conforming thing as it is a wrestling tag team.

Or the arcade game "Gauntlet" from back in the day. And, yes, I did just compare the holy sacrament of marriage to a classic Atari coin op.

I suck at this, you suck at that, but together we find we are better and happier than we would have been separately.

Besides, good sex on tap = win. (and if it wasn't good you wouldn't still be there.) :D

[sve]

I understand that all those talks about marriage and children is actually in the direct dependence from your financial situation and how stable and secured about future you are... so ...it is all understandable and I don't take your harsh words about children and your potencial spouse seriously because of that... but it seems to me you still love yourselves too much, a bit narcissistic. If you want to live and sense, realize yourself through world around you you need to give yourself to the other person. You feed another person with love, he/she feeds you. You can restore your energy inside yourself independently, but it is limited...
If you can't give, you are dead I think.

And marriage IMO is simply an arrangement between two people to share and pay for a common propriety, raise children together, go through hard time, a guarantee for both partners to carry responsibilities they took together.

It has many shortcomings, but it is the best solution to keep things stable and rolling so far.
If two people are mature enough to understand and not try to escape from the responsibility in their relationship, well then in my opinion marriage is not necessarily... of course they need to convince government of the country they live in in this.

In some way marriage is sort of a business relationship. Love and respect and complementarity between two people makes marriage working and the shortcomings of your partner tolerable. Marriage is based on compromises in order to fulfill bigger goals you just can't do alone.
One of them is meeting your old years when you are weak and in need of help with a person who proved his/her reliability and humanity through many years before it...
Physical attraction, infatuation might go away, caring will stay.
That's what I think.

[gruve24]

What if I'm not tortured, miserable or bored? What if I'm having a fine old time living with a smart, sexy, fun loving nerd chick who drinks pints, likes metal and understands the offside rule?hey thats great Flake, and I wish all the best to you and your loved one, but YOU nor your grandparents represent the Majority of people in this country.

I think guys who have more experience dealing with numerous women will understand what I'm saying and agree with me. If love and marriage are working for you then by all means, do what makes you happy.

I have never been dumped and I get along well with women whose company I enjoy, but why will I or anyone who likes another person NEED to get married ??? I'm not forcing any ideas on anyone..I'm asking what is the IMPORTANCE of marriage ??? what will it change ?? besides ensuring a loss of half of anything earned by the other party who makes more money.

I suck at this, you suck at that, but together we find we are better and happier than we would have been separately.well that sounds awfully cute..reality will prove otherwise. If not for you, then the MAJORITY of other people living in the real world.

Besides, good sex on tap = win. (and if it wasn't good you wouldn't still be there.)I get great sex with several different women. When one doesn't feel up to the task, theres always someone else who is.

If your wife doesn't feel like having sex better break out the kleenex. Oh and you just admitted that THE ONLY REASON to keep a woman around is for good sex ! the 1st honest thing you've said this entire thread. theres hope for you yet.

MARRIAGE is not permanent for alot of people. Many get remarried more than once. My mother is an example. Live your life. Fall in love. Handle responsibilities with someone you trust and possibly grow with them. HAVE AN ADULT RELATIONSHIP.You can have an adult relationship WITHOUT MARRIAGE..and when its time to call it quits the both of you can move on like adults. This whole thing of re-marrying...whats the point ?? you just proved that marriage DOES NOT work..people would not have to re-marry if it did !!

and by the way...I'm willing to bet it was pretty easy for your mother to re-marry..next time you see her ask her how much she paid for the ring and wedding ceremony.

Marriage is based on compromises in order to fulfill bigger goals you just can't do alone.Like what ?!?!?! what bigger goals will marriage help anyone fulfill ?? you think people need to be married to take care of each other in there old age ?? You think the point of marriage is for someone to support you when you can't support yourself ?!?!?!? that is pathetic.

[sve]

Mutually support, my dear, mutually... World is cold, especially when you are old.

pathetic... maybe it is pathetic... who said marriage is ideal?... but I want to ask you about your plans when you are sick, old and have nothing to offer to beautiful young women :). You have no children, no spouses, just ex sex partners... who never dumped you, but you are not together anymore...may I assume you always dumped women in your life? what are your plans, sweety? Buying service of nurse? care for money? Is it pathetic? more pathetic or less, than honestly live your life and care about person you loved and supported.

Goals in marriage ... I already mentioned. read if you want again my first post.

[gruve24]

sve

What happens when You or your Wife dies first ???

Why do you assume that your spouse WILL take care of you ??

Why do you assume un-married people don't care about friends, family and lovers ??

What happens when you have a kid who grows up to be a criminal, handicapped or killed ??

Why do you have such a great fear of dying alone ?? (as if there was any other way to die)

Why do people NEED a business relationship ?? What purpose does it serve ?? (don't you think people should be able to take care of themselves and share their completeness with others ?? do you really need to be married to do that ??)

[sve]

As I said if you are responsible you don't need to get married...
but once again... do you feel deeply about your sex partners in such way you will care about them when they are old? I never said anything about un-married people not caring about the people in their life... i asked you... what are your plans? who are you planning to meet your old years with? so far having someone to grow old together wasn't mentioned... you talk about keeping you sex exciting... and that's not a big thing..
If I lose my loved ones it will be tremendous grief for me. I want them be happy and healthy even if it is at my expense. I happily would give everything I have for their happiness...
Do you have anyone who will do the same for you?

You keep adding new questions..
Why it has to be business? well such is life... you have common propriety, responsibilities, future plans, which demands financial responsibilities as well, taking care of your children, caring about their future, health, mistakes,,, mortgage... No one can afford to go in all this without some guarantee.
it is more complex than having a good time together and if you partner is not in a mood for sex,,, you jump to the next one...

You never were dumped, my dear. Get ready :). In order to understand why people get married you need to experience this I think :). When you learn what pain is you will be careful not to make someone you care about suffer.

Afraid of dying alone? well I think it is a rhetorical question. I think you can think and find the answer yourself. I believe in you.

Grow a child who becomes a criminal or handicapped ... well that's a tragedy and it is your responsibility to prevent it until he/she is under your care. Two loving people will do a better job in this than one irresponsible young so called father figure.
Why I assume my spouse will take care of me when I'm old? yeah, it is a gambling in some way... but...
I live with this person. I know him/her better than anyone else... that's why it is important not to marry first person you met... your wife or husband has to be a good person and a friend. Person who is able to love you even when you lost your physical attractiveness. That's why you live with this person the whole life... it is a test... reliability is the most important thing in the end.

[pencilkiller]

"Are you ever going to get married and settle down?"

First I need to find a man respect my career choice as artist....

It's pretty hard, and I'm already afraid to get hurt or hurt someone anymore. :(

[Flake]

I think guys who have more experience dealing with numerous women will understand what I'm saying and agree with me.
Again, the illogical assumptions. You fail at logic.
Oh and you just admitted that THE ONLY REASON to keep a woman around is for good sex ! the 1st honest thing you've said this entire thread. theres hope for you yet.
Not what I said at all, You fail at reading comprehension.
You can have an adult relationship WITHOUT MARRIAGE.
I know, I'm currently having one.

[eskanto]

hey thats great Flake, and I wish all the best to you and your loved one, but YOU nor your grandparents represent the Majority of people in this country.
And I'm sure you've polled the 300 million people in the US (if that's where you are) to find that out hmmm? ...and stop throwing around the phrase 'majority of people' it's not cute.

I think guys who have more experience dealing with numerous women will understand what I'm saying and agree with me. I get great sex with several different women. When one doesn't feel up to the task, theres always someone else who is.
I think it's a sad situation when someone has to announce things like this on an INTERNET FORUM. It probably means you are experiencing the opposite.

I've lived in Florida and I live in New York now, i believe both are 50% states. Yet I know a good number of relatives and friends who have gotten married recently. Perhaps, it's not all about the money my friend. It would'nt matter if you simply said you didn't want to get married or have kids, but it's the way you so rudely assert that EVERYONE else is wrong for wanting to. Eventhough, you've quite clearly proven that you might not have learned yet what is really important about being in a relationship. (Read quotes above buddy.)

[Vhan Juju]

While NOT uncommon is one of the STUPIDEST most costly Reasons for having children. "Because you are bored". If your bored maybe you need to improve your own life..instead of using kids as an escape from your loveless boredom.

and you know what else....even NOW you know you will NOT love the person your with over time..you will grow tired of her/him. Why not enjoy the good times you had with that person and move on to someone else ??? Why put yourself through the torture of living a miserable UNhappy life with someone your bored of

Hehe, :) hey man, its not like I don't agree with you! I just don't really know how things will change- you know, after you get married. I'm sure that there are all sorts of stages that you go through, and eventually I'm pretty certian that we will both wan't kids!

And Hey, I'm abstiant! ("silver ring thing"- or whatever, some people have called it that)

I don't think I'm going to ger board of her very soon! :)

[wassermelone]

sve

What happens when You or your Wife dies first ???

Why do you assume that your spouse WILL take care of you ??

Why do you assume un-married people don't care about friends, family and lovers ??

What happens when you have a kid who grows up to be a criminal, handicapped or killed ??

Why do you have such a great fear of dying alone ?? (as if there was any other way to die)

Why do people NEED a business relationship ?? What purpose does it serve ?? (don't you think people should be able to take care of themselves and share their completeness with others ?? do you really need to be married to do that ??)

So just because bad things can happen you want to take part in none of the great things?

Guess you might want to just go huddle in a corner. Theres always going to be bad possibilities from ANY action, any life choice.

[gruve24]

wassermelone I was talking to sve about something specific. Your taking my comments to sve out of context and making them work in favor of your point.

Alot of you are probably getting your whole world rocked right now and can't believe that a person is able to have so much independence and control of their lives. No doubt a majority of you were raised by the television and think life is a great big fairy tale where you find the girl or guy of your dreams, get married have kids and live happily ever after. Give it a shot, if you think this will realistically work for YOU then by all means...chase the fantasy !

If your happy with a woman then BE WITH A WOMAN that makes you happy. You absolutely DO NOT need marriage to have and enjoy someone in your life. If you genuinely WANT children then HAVE them. No ones saying not to have children.

Guess you might want to just go huddle in a corner. Theres always going to be bad possibilities from ANY action, any life choice.guess you might want to re-read this thread before thinking your some kind of guiding light of common sense when the point your making is in reference to NOTHING.


Besides, good sex on tap = win. (and if it wasn't good you wouldn't still be there.)


Quote:
Oh and you just admitted that THE ONLY REASON to keep a woman around is for good sex ! the 1st honest thing you've said this entire thread. theres hope for you yet.
Not what I said at all, You fail at reading comprehension.
I'm sorry Flake...maybe I missed something, but I could have sworn you just said if the SEX WAS NOT GOOD, A MAN WOULD LEAVE A WOMAN...maybe you can elaborate and clarify how i failed to comprehend what you said.

[Vhan Juju]

Alot of you are probably getting your whole world rocked right now and can't believe that a person is able to have so much independence and control of their lives. No doubt a majority of you were raised by the television and think life is a great big fairy tale where you find the girl or guy of your dreams, get married have kids and live happily ever after. Give it a shot, if you think this will realistically work for YOU then by all means...chase the fantasy !


Lol, that made me giggle. :)

Hostley man, there is no reason to be hostile...

[Steph Laberis]

To answer the original question: Kids: NO. Marriage: not now, maybe not ever, but weirder shit's happened. I have a lot of work to do and a lot of deep breaths to take before that could ever happen. ;)

Didn't have a good role model for marriage - my parents were very unhappy from day one of my existence and thankfully separated. While most people might have moved on to other relationships or marriages, neither of them did and it sort of left me confused. One parent is happier being alone and I understand that now, the other just never got their emotional act together.

When it comes to having kids, my Mom used to tell my brother and I in no uncertain terms that kids "sucked the life out of her" and I took a lot of personal blame for her unhappiness in the marriage. Not a good start.

So I haven't had a very positive outlook on marriage and having children since I was very little and widely I still don't, it's only been recently that I've started to even give the notion a flicker of thought (in theory anyway) and look at the relationships/marriages of my friends as better working examples. I actually talked to my father recently about why he thought the marriage failed and his answers made complete sense, it helped to lessen the "it's MY FAULT!" default reaction that kids of divorce seem to have and take with them through their lives. If and when I find someone that compliments who I am and grows with me, I'll give something more serious some more thought. For now, it's baby steps. :)

[alesoun]

"Alot of you are probably getting your whole world rocked right now and can't believe that a person is able to have so much independence and control of their lives. No doubt a majority of you were raised by the television and think life is a great big fairy tale where you find the girl or guy of your dreams, get married have kids and live happily ever after. Give it a shot, if you think this will realistically work for YOU then by all means...chase the fantasy !"Just what exactly are you trying to say, Gruve? That everybody except you is a fool or a fantasist? That marriage is some kind of prison geared towards robbing you of your independence? Hmm.... Hasn't hobbled my independence or my husband's.

"guess you might want to re-read this thread before thinking your some kind of guiding light of common sense when the point your making is in reference to NOTHING." Didn't you say that to Wassermelone? But you're never going to marry, so how can you possibly know what marriage is really like? All you're talking about is based on prejudice, and not personal experience. It's a bit like an only child saying they know what it's like to be a twin....

Do what you want with your life, but respect other people's choices and stop making assumptions about their motives.

There's nothing wrong with not marrying. There's nothing wrong with marrying. There's nothing wrong with having kids or not having them. What in the heck is winding you up so much about the choices that other people make? It's THEIR life and their choice, surely....

[sve]

I answered your questions, gruve, you didn't answer mine. What are your plans for future?
Your relationship with women based on a physical attraction... if you are not young and attractive anymore... what are you planning to do?
Television and propaganda have nothing to do with my life. I'm married and have a child. I know it from the first hand: all good and bad sides. You on the other hand never tried living with someone for a long time and share hardship, you are in relationship only for fun. If I'm wrong about that I apologize, I judge from your posts.
So your opinion might be curious to read, but it doesn't have much weight.

[woodbert]

Kids are without a doubt the hardest part of a marriage and typically one of the reasons a marriage fails, not because it's the kids fault, but because the parents are unable to adjust to the responsibilities of having them and working together as a team.
As for why get married? Sometimes I wonder why, especially after a big argument but to be honest I don't have any regrets about it. I love my wife she loves me and after we talk about our problems we always promise to try to grow as individuals and as a couple. It's kind of mushy yes but it's working and we're happy.
Please don't base all of the work my wife and I have put into our relationship and family as watching too much TV and needing to fit in (what a load).

[wassermelone]

Alot of you are probably getting your whole world rocked right now and can't believe that a person is able to have so much independence and control of their lives. No doubt a majority of you were raised by the television and think life is a great big fairy tale where you find the girl or guy of your dreams, get married have kids and live happily ever after. Give it a shot, if you think this will realistically work for YOU then by all means...chase the fantasy !

:rolleyes:

Wow. The sound of you masturbating to your own brilliance is tremendous.

[Tessilago]

Personally, I want kids and marriage. I've very traditional that way. I am a hopeless romantic struggling not to lose faith in love. It makes me feel really sad to actually realise that it's just a fantasy. :( Sometimes I want to be alone for the rest of my life just because I'm so afraid of getting hurt. But that's just cowardly.

So to answer the question... Yes, hopefully. Will it be with my current boyfriend? Only time will tell.

[gruve24]

There's nothing wrong with not marrying. There's nothing wrong with marrying. There's nothing wrong with having kids or not having them. What in the heck is winding you up so much about the choices that other people make? It's THEIR life and their choice, surely....nothings winding me up alesoun, whats winding you up ?? I agree with all of your points ! 100%

What are your plans for future?It would take me a week to finish writing an answer to this question, but in short, My plans are to live my life the way I want to live it.

if you are not young and attractive anymore... what are you planning to do?The same thing I've always been doing for most of my life. Living it the way I want to live it. I don't NEED to have a woman in the picture to be happy but in all honesty, there IS ALWAYS A WOMAN that can be in the picture IF I WANTED HER TO BE THERE.

You on the other hand never tried living with someone for a long time and share hardship, you are in relationship only for fun.so lets see...the way I choose to do things will make my life happier and fun without hard ships or SHARED hardships that come with being attached, So because I choose to opt out of marriage or having a woman live with me I will be missing out on all the hardships that come with it..hmmm tough choice sounds like I will missing out on a lot (of grief).

It's kind of mushy yes but it's working and we're happy. Then that is all that is important woodbert and for the record

I NEVER SAID EVERYONE WAS RAISED BY TV. so if you don't fall into that category why on earth would you feel the need to comment about it ?? it doesn't apply to you.

Steph your experience SUX and I feel for you truly, but on the other hand you are far ahead of most people who have unreal or rosy colored influenced ideas on love, marriage and family. Even though you had to go through your hardships, YOU HAVE UNDOUBTABLY BECOME A STRONGER, BETTER, MORE HONEST, REALISTIC PERSON WHEN IT COMES TO LIFE. It will also be MUCH easier for you to think with a level head and logic before you make any life changing decisions !

I've very traditional that way. I am a hopeless romantic struggling not to lose faith in love. It makes me feel really sad to actually realise that it's just a fantasy. Sometimes I want to be alone for the rest of my life just because I'm so afraid of getting hurt.Don't you think its even more sad that you place such a STRONG emphasis on something you have no control over ??? Wouldn't your energy and effort best be served in finding happiness among things YOU CAN CONTROL that can improve and enhance your life. Love should be the extra that compliments a person who can find happiness alone. I think people like you set yourself up for disaster when things don't work out the way you HOPE them to. Live your life for yourself, Not in hopes that someone else will Love you as much as you love them..there are NO guarantees that will ever happen...and it it doesn't happen what will you think about your life then ??

[sve]

You think being alone you will avoid hardship :)? talk about living in fantasy...don't worry ... you will not miss any hardship in your life. And of course i don't care how you want to live your life... I was curious what you have stored for yourslef in case if you are sick and old. As I see: nothing. Good planning.

[Cthogua]

Haha great thread, even the silly parts atleast make for good reading.

I'm married and currently neither my wife nor I plan on having any kids...but who knows what the future holds, maybe in a few years I'll be more financially stable, perhaps alittle less selfish about my time, alittle less freaked out about the idea of loving something more than myself...but not right now. As for the marriage thing, I'm loving it. My wife and I were in a relationship for almost 6 years before we actually got married so we used to joke that we were already anyway. We kind of saw getting married as a public declaration to our friends and family of our commitment to our relationship, plus it allowed me to cover her under my health and dental insurance.

What's funny about all the negative arguements against marriage....everyone's experience is so subjective. My parents are still happily married after almost 30 years. Other peoples parents split before they were born, or after, or after many years after. Some people desire companionship, others don't. Some people view the opposite sex with suspicion others see them as a compliment to their being. My wife knows all my flaws and helps me work through them, and I do the same for her. I used to get very depressed, and sometimes could be very negative. My wife on the other hand is almost obnoxiously optimistic, and drags me kicking and screaming out of my funks, and I love her for it.

[Obsidian Glynn]

Ok now Gruve24...going to bash me about this but maybe you should just stop qouting and bashing everyone who disagrees with you. That just makes you sound narrowminded.

Allow other people to have their own opinions about the subject and stop flaming everyone who disagrees with you.

[Dragonlady]

Forums are supposed to be about discussion - there is no discussion with gruve24. Might as well be talking to a brick wall - albeit an angsty brick wall.

Not wanting to marry or have kids? Wonderful!
Want to marry and have a slew of chitlin's? Great!

Now... (to default to every CA'er response)
Shut up and draw.

[gruve24]

3 pages and counting I think the discussion is moving along rather nicely and everyone is getting a chance to speak their opinion, plus theres tons of helpful information and points of views.

I'm not bashing or flaming anyone where would you get that idea Obsidian ? People are talking to me directly, I'm just replying back.

[Vhan Juju]

I don't know what happend to guys like you gruve24, but whatever it is, it sure has a way of destroying hearts... :(

[solitude]

Just talking in general here... I think a lot of people seem to think people who don't see the point in people running off getting married (other than the tax, legal, rights over children etc... things) have the wrong idea. Just like people marring because they love each other/want to spend eternity together… Personally I think that's wonderful and I count my self as a bit of a dumb romantic sometimes even though outwardly it doesn't often seem like that :P They think it's we don't want a lifelong relationship with someone or are somehow against the idea of it, or that not believing in marriage means not believing in love, commitment, or two people working through problems together and not breaking up at every little bump in the road.

Personally I don't, I jus don't see why marriage is needed if the love is there. You’ve found someone like that? Great! It's just people seem to talk about finding ‘the one’ and loving them for the rest of their life as a synonym for marriage, or as if it can't exist without it. A member of my family got married recently after being with the guy for 10+ years. They're a great, happy couple. They randomly (totally random, seriously, she even ranted before how she absolutely did. Not. Want. The whole wedding fuss ) got married last year... I said something along the lines of 'It's not going to change anything' and she basically agreed with me. Also I love her and everything, but she didn’t the whole white dress church big mad fuss thing when she doesn’t even believe in that sort of thing, which struck me as very hypocritical. Anyway, nothing did change. They’re perfectly happy, just like the last ten years. Yay…?

Oh well...

[enrigo]

:rolleyes:

Wow. The sound of you masturbating to your own brilliance is tremendous.

ROFL !!

[eskanto]

when people like gruve talk they way they do it's always the sign of some insecurity. Maybe the girls reject you? Is that why you're so angry? In fact, I think I'll second what wassermelone said, there is a GREAT deal of masturbation going on.

[kollatt]

deep stuff going down here. okay, i'll throw my hat in.

well i'm 25. i got married when i was 21 and my wife was already 4 months pregnant at the time. when my first daughter was born, it set me in motion to pursue becoming a professional artist. before that point i was working at domino's pizza, and my days of sketching and drawing in high school were becoming a distant memory. i suppose it's because she truly taught me to appreciate life. and i wanted to be an example to her that pursuing your dreams is very important ( not to mention showing her that's it's completely POSSIBLE if you just work hard to get there). since then i've had two more kids and i own my own successful business.

at the time getting married was very impulsive, so i can't claim that i had any big plan. i was just the sort of person who jumped into things feet first without looking sometimes. there's a million reasons why people choose to "settle down" and get married and have kids ( though the definition of settle down can mean many things.. i haven't stopped moving in four years ), but for me i think it was that having those people in my life opened me up to different possibilities. now granted.. i have an amazingly understanding and compassionate woman as my wife, and beautiful and loving kids. maybe i'm just lucky. but, they enhance everything i do. they keep me motivated, and inspired. they ARE what makes living great. aw! i'm gonna go hug them now. bye!

[Penumbra]

This may not be a well recieved observation but based on sheer statistics there is a MUCH greater chance of finding and maintaining a happy marriage or depthful relationship, than of becoming a professional artist.

As for kids:
My wife and I were talking one night and I said that I thought I would never be able to express how much I loved her no matter how long we lived. She said 'Well..maybe we should think about having a child then."
- I believe that is a good reason to have kids.

I make no appologies for living in this fantasy or for being a sap. Nor do I condemn those who prefer the single life. Most of the resolute singles that I know remain open to other possibilities. That is good.

I know people from all walks of life and their beliefs are widely varied. I know people who have multiple partners both men and women. I would not be happy in their life and I do not presume to insist they would be happier in mine.

As for being a fool because I am married, well...I 've been a fool for lesser things.

[TASmith]

I haven't read any of the posts here, but just as general advice...

I'm married, 29, and I have a one year-old son. I love my family and I'm glad I started fairly early. Heck, maybe I should've started earlier? But just so you know, taking care of a baby means less art production - much less. It also means you have to focus more on making money, and working. I have the added disadvantage that I'm still not a good enough artist to do what I want, and I'll have to wait many years to even start working/training towards the skill level I want. So, if you aren't at the artistic level you want yet, or you can't make money through your art, then settling down is going to delay you a good bit. If your not careful, your spouse may even consider your dreams a pipedream. My wife says growing up is finally doing something you don't like, for example.

If you're already at the skill level you like and you feel like taking some time off to "live" away from the art realm, then definately have a family early. It's great having the energy to take care of my son, plus younger couples are much less likely to have kids with birth defects/handicaps/autism, etc. Just make sure you marry someone you really know and respect. Don't marry someone if you haven't fought with them yet.

P.S. I also followed this advice, and am very happy with my family, for anyone wondering.

[Steph Laberis]

Gruve, I appreciate your sympathies, sincerely. But what scares me is that you think that you can have control over your life by virtue of being alone. Whether you personally decide to commit to another person or not doesn't matter to me as much, it's about what makes you happiest, but truly, if you think that you are maintaining control in your life by keeping others at arm's length, I think you are misguided.

The parent I mentioned who "couldn't get their emotional act together" decided that they would rather have complete control over their life rather than have a partner or really even friends or family. I mean hey, when you take a risk and really put yourself out there emotionally, you could totally be left standing alone, rejected and abandoned. I'd like to see a single person in this forum who hasn't experienced that. But in the end, I have watched this parent slowly wall themselves off, now over 60 with a long-time eating disorder (gotta have control, right?) and melting down every time their best laid plans fall through. I don't believe they are happy, I believe to the depth of my being that everything they have done to get themselves to this point was out of fear, fear of losing the control they think they have. A committed partner will not protect you from experiencing these things, nor, from my experience, will being a loner.

It's much harder to accept that you can't control other people or your life entirely. I'm still working at that one and that fact hasn't changed, no matter what my relationship status has been.

[gruve24]

Steph Laberis

You have completely misunderstood me and made inaccurate assumptions. You have somehow managed to twist my words and meaning into a crazy rant that somehow relates to your parent yet has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

People by nature are social.
- We NEED other people in our lives. We NEED to feel a connection with other people. We NEED intimacy.
- We DON'T NEED A PIECE OF PAPER (marriage certificate), OVER PRICED DIAMOND RING, GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE AND AN OVERPRICED CEREMONY TO TELL ANYBODY ANYTHING.


I'm not sure where you got this crazy idea that having control over our lives means keeping people at arms length.
I was telling, Tessilago, that it does NOT make sense to live life HOPING someone will love her, marry her and have kids with her. That is a factor she has no control over.


It makes me feel really sad to actually realise that it's just a fantasy. Sometimes I want to be alone for the rest of my life just because I'm so afraid of getting hurt.




Why on earth would anyone choose to base any kind of happiness on the shoulders of someone else or worse yet the shoulders of fate.

It would be a much healthier approach to find happiness in self improvement as well as goals that a person can work towards based on there own ambition and passion, NO ONE ELSES !! Sometimes achieving the goal isn't where the happiness comes from, sometimes it can be the process it takes to get there. The journey a person takes to achieve something through there own determination.

If someone should happen to find love, just let it happen and go with the flow. If people love each other There is NO NEED to get MARRIED. People change over time and if for some unknown reason things don't work out, you will both be able to part ways amicably or at least in an adult manner with minor casualties.

If you are married and things don't work out SOMEONE risks Losing half of everything they earned. Not to mention the headaches, hassle and costs of a divorce. Some people just don't want to deal with all the drama so they stay in LOVELESS MISERABLE MARRIAGES TILL THEY CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE AND LEAVE, OR DIE.

If there is no marriage, and 2 people continue loving each other, then guess what...2 people will continue loving each other, nothing changes. NOT BEING MARRIED HAS NO EFFECT ON THE WAY PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT EACH OTHER.

Why would you lock yourself into something so unstable based purely on luck ?? Why would you eliminate the option to leave ?? Why would anyone feel that it is wrong to leave ??




It's much harder to accept that you can't control other people or your life entirely.WHY ?????????????????????

WHY WOULD YOU OR ANYONE WANT TO CONTROL SOMEONES LIFE !!!!?!?!?
why is it so hard to accept that people control their own lives !?!??!?

and...obviously we don't have control over our lives ENTIRELY..but the more control we have the better (or worse).
We are not other peoples responsibility once we pass the age of 17 !

[Penumbra]

gruve24- The problem is that by saying this:
Hopefully alot of you guys won't run into the true nature of most women..but marriage ensures them that if anything goes wrong in a relationship...they can (and WILL) take half or more of everything you own.

-you have established a massagonistic undertone. Clarify this, what is the nature of most women?
-Why would a wife(Or partner if that's your bend) be undeserving of half of the fruits of a life that he/she has contributed to equally?

Bare in mind that I am not arguing the assertion that one needs to be married to be fullfilled.

and...

Why on earth would anyone choose to base any kind of happiness on the shoulders of someone else or worse yet the shoulders of fate?

because:

People by nature are social.
- We NEED other people in our lives. We NEED to feel a connection with other people. We NEED intimacy.


But If you change the statement to:

Why on earth would anyone choose to base all of their happiness on the shoulders of someone else or worse yet the shoulders of fate?

Then I could agree with it.

Finally,
The fact that we are social and we need those things, as you have pointed out, prove that we need others in part to make us happy. The fact that you choose to leave a relationship when it's not working(aka when you are no longer happy) implies that you are just as subject to the reliance on other people for your happiness as the rest of us.
You're just not the marrying type.

[emily g]

If you are married and things don't work out SOMEONE risks Losing half of everything they earned. Not to mention the headaches, hassle and costs of a divorce.
If a person is really worried about losing half of their property, they can sign a prenup. Divorce IS a headache, but if you are having some disagreement over splitting any joint property you will be glad for divorce court. Otherwise, your only recourse is taking the other person to regular court which just doesn't have the expertise in these situations that divorce court does.

Whether people agree with it or not, the U.S. government provides a lot of benefits to couples that are married. Anyone who has followed the gay marriage situation knows that gay people trying to guarantee themselves those same benefits have to go through so much hassle getting regular contracts--any of which could be challenged by other family members if one of the partners dies. Heterosexual couples can get all of those benefits automatically just by signing one piece of paper.

Some of the benefits the U.S. government gives to married people:
The right to visit the other person in the hospital.
The right to make medical decisions for a partner if that partner is incapacitated.
The right to receive a partner's social security, retirement, wrongful death benefits, disability, Medicare benefits, worker's comp, retirement, pension, etc. of a spouse upon that spouse's death.
The right to make burial decisions for a partner.
Being able to put your spouse on your health insurance and vice versa.
The right to automatically inherit your spouse's estate upon their death in the absence of a will. (Without a will, all of your property goes to next of kin rather than a partner you're not married to.)
The right not to be made to testify against your spouse.
Immigration and residency benefits for a non-citizen spouse.

People say, "We don't need a piece of paper to know that we love each other." But if you really love each other, want to be together forever, etc. wouldn't you want to guarantee each other all of those benefits?

[eskanto]

The parent I mentioned who "couldn't get their emotional act together" decided that they would rather have complete control over their life rather than have a partner or really even friends or family.

I COMPLETELY understand what you're saying Steph. My parents divorced and one moved on with thier life and entered other relationships, and the other just shut themselves in and never married or got into any type of relationship again. Now one parent is nearly 60 with tons of personal problems 'cause they could never open up to anyone else, for fear of being hurt again. Falling in and out of love is rough sometimes.

I also agree with Emily g, it's ok if you feel a piece a paper is not important, but me personally i would want the person i love to have all the benefits that come with that 'piece of paper'

I'm really wishing we still had that Groan button. SOMEONE in this forum need a good dose of groan right about now.

[solitude]

But what about the people who do it just because... Nothing.

These are all valid reasons. Not that I actually agree with them being there, to me a long term boyfriend of 15 years not being allowed to visit in hospital when a 10 day impulse Vegas marriage guy can is just plain wrong. But that's off the point. If it's the only way available to you to have these rights I don't blame anyone for it (here in Ireland it has a lot to do with the rights of the father over the child etc... But that's wrong in itself because the person married to the mother automatically gets custodial rights over the child... Anyway I'm rambling off the point...)

A large number of people don’t get married for any complicated reasons to do with rights etc. The people who do it as some kind of validation or 'insurance' which should have already been there. Some people run around, totally insecure about their relationship, nagging about marriage marriage marriage as if it will magically solve any problems/trust issues they have, or people who think some great magical change will come over them or their not-so-perfect partner because they had a party and signed a document. People who think this from outside and inside the relationship. You don’t hear people going on about how wonderful their new legal rights are, isn’t it great for the happy couple… It’s treated like a step up from what was before when really, it isn't. Sometimes (and nothing to do with legality here) it seems two people who do get married and had the big showy celebration and popped out a baby is given more respect than a committed happy long term relationship that’s no ‘better’ or ‘worse’ to it in terms of commitment/stability… For no good reason.

Also, I don’t like hypocrisy, in that I’m not religious at all, but I hate this lying about believing in God just so you can use the pretty church etc. Or even people saying vows when in reality, they feel totally silly for doing so and it’s not their thing at all. Is there a way to get these rights another way? Is there a way you can just sign the document with a few witnesses, without any vows or walking up aisles? (Genuinely wondering here) Why aren’t there just ‘civil unions’ for everyone, and then people can do the whole white dress business or do nothing at all, depending on what they want personally, instead of having to make hypocrites of themselves for legal rights they’re perfectly entitled to…

Just for the record, I disagree with gruve24’s erm… reasoning. Although I do agree with one thing. I don’t like it when I see people going around as if another person will complete their incomplete self. There’s a lot to be said for being happy in yourself as you are. There’s nothing wrong with wanting it and thinking it would be great, but absolutely needing it and making it your life’s quest to ‘get’ someone is entirely different. Then that comes down the road of people who just need to ‘get’ someone and feel like marriage means they nabbed themselves a man/woman whether they even like them all that much or not, and now everything’s going to be okay.

[gruve24]

Penumbra 100% agreed. I won't elaborate on what I mean by "the true nature of women" because that will take this discussion in a TOTALLY different direction and many people aren't going to like it.

Why would a wife(Or partner if that's your bend) be undeserving of half of the fruits of a life that he/she has contributed to equally?this is subjective, but if a woman were to marry a wealthy person and later on got divorced the courts would favor her in alimony. A woman does NOT need to contribute anything equally to get half of a mans earnings. She simply needs to stay married for a few months.

But If you change the statement to:

Why on earth would anyone choose to base all of their happiness on the shoulders of someone else or worse yet the shoulders of fate?

Then I could agree with it.I'm changing it !! so now we're seeing eye to eye.

Just for the record, I disagree with gruve24’s erm… reasoning.It seems that you agree with me more than you would like to admit.

p.s. Penumbra you have amazing artwork !

[alesoun]

Is there a way you can just sign the document with a few witnesses, without any vows or walking up aisles? (Genuinely wondering here) Why aren’t there just ‘civil unions’ for everyone, and then people can do the whole white dress business or do nothing at all, depending on what they want personally, instead of having to make hypocrites of themselves for legal rights they’re perfectly entitled to…


Solitude. of course there is (well, here in Scotland, anyway). I got married in a Registry Office. no big white dress, no religious vows. Wore a dress that cost less than £20 and had twenty or thirty friends and family to the party afterwards. The marriage is much more important than the wedding. If we could have afforded a bigger splash, we might have gone for that; but I had a good wedding day, and the marriage is still ticking along....

Legally, you only need 2 witnesses, and you can get married pretty much wherever you want here nowadays.

[solitude]

It seems that you agree with me more than you would like to admit.

p.s. Penumbra you have amazing artwork !

How, other than on one particular point?



Solitude. of course there is (well, here in Scotland, anyway). I got married in a Registry Office. no big white dress, no religious vows. Wore a dress that cost less than £20 and had twenty or thirty friends and family to the party afterwards. The marriage is much more important than the wedding. If we could have afforded a bigger splash, we might have gone for that; but I had a good wedding day, and the marriage is still ticking along....

Legally, you only need 2 witnesses, and you can get married pretty much wherever you want here nowadays.

I know about registry offices and such... I mean like... With no vows, no nothing. Like in out and five minutes with none of the standing in front of a person or ceremonial stuff. Just signing a document and leaving kind of thing, basically doing it purely for rights and no messing about with anything else. Something where you could basically say you're getting these rights, it's not 'marriage' or anything like that.

[alesoun]

Erm.... you have to stand in front of somebody to sign the legal document, but the "vows" are really just you agreeing to marry. It can be as short and unfussy as you want. It can take longer to sign a will, actually. You basically declare that you know what you're doing, and that there's no reason why you shouldn't marry. Then you agree to marry and sign and have it witnessed. If you want to make pretty speeches you can; if not, don't.

Afterwards you can have a party or go back to work; it's up to you. Most people choose to celebrate, but it's not compulsory.

As long as the basic legalities are met, it can be as quick and unfussy as you want.

[DavePalumbo]

why is it so hard to accept that people control their own lives !?!??!?

I think the quote goes something along the lines of "man makes plans and God laughs"

Gruve, what I think has alot of people riled here isn't if you personally don't want to get married or believe in commitment, loyalty, etc. but (as it seems to me) your assertions that anyone who does is either delusional or lying. I personally don't agree with most of the statements that you've made, but you're free to believe whatever you please and you should accept that others will do the same.

[pongopoo]

So many 'we's...and 'us's
What 'we' all are, or should be or might be?
For someone so much into self sufficiency, as you gruve -
is that a pretty heavy internal conflict?
You like self sufficiency -
BUT - you need to know
how everyone 'is'?
You have to know, or like to know, or need to feel that you know - How 'WE' think how 'WE' feel?
OK - heres me - I think...
Some people dont need anyone in their lives - they settle for dogs or cats or memories.
Some people - having experienced intimacy - NEVER want to do it again.
Some never, or rarely, think of it
Some people feel a strong need for all the bits and pieces of whatever structure they feel supports them, that includes
pieces of paper, clothing or jewellery.
Some people need ceremony and ritual.
Some people love to live their whole lives in dreams - some in memories some in hopes, others in fears.
Some people love life best when they trust their own life to someone else
they believe in, or to fate.
Some people - when they fall in love - feel they must be married, or bound by whatever ceremony their culture dictates.
Some people remain forever as 'children' never become 'adults' by your definition..

Some people like to lock themselves into all that you think of as unstable.

And for all of it
Some people dont.


People by nature are social.
- We NEED other people in our lives. We NEED to feel a connection with other people. We NEED intimacy.
- We DON'T NEED A PIECE OF PAPER (marriage certificate), OVER PRICED DIAMOND RING, GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE AND AN OVERPRICED CEREMONY TO TELL ANYBODY ANYTHING.


I'm not sure where you got this crazy idea that having control over our lives means keeping people at arms length.
I was telling, Tessilago, that it does NOT make sense to live life HOPING someone will love her, marry her and have kids with her. That is a factor she has no control over.

Why on earth would anyone choose to base any kind of happiness on the shoulders of someone else or worse yet the shoulders of fate.

It would be a much healthier approach to find happiness in self improvement as well as goals that a person can work towards based on there own ambition and passion, NO ONE ELSES !! Sometimes achieving the goal isn't where the happiness comes from, sometimes it can be the process it takes to get there. The journey a person takes to achieve something through there own determination.

If someone should happen to find love, just let it happen and go with the flow. If people love each other There is NO NEED to get MARRIED. People change over time and if for some unknown reason things don't work out, you will both be able to part ways amicably or at least in an adult manner with minor casualties.

If you are married and things don't work out SOMEONE risks Losing half of everything they earned. Not to mention the headaches, hassle and costs of a divorce. Some people just don't want to deal with all the drama so they stay in LOVELESS MISERABLE MARRIAGES TILL THEY CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE AND LEAVE, OR DIE.

If there is no marriage, and 2 people continue loving each other, then guess what...2 people will continue loving each other, nothing changes. NOT BEING MARRIED HAS NO EFFECT ON THE WAY PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT EACH OTHER.

Why would you lock yourself into something so unstable based purely on luck ?? Why would you eliminate the option to leave ?? Why would anyone feel that it is wrong to leave ??

WHY ?????????????????????

WHY WOULD YOU OR ANYONE WANT TO CONTROL SOMEONES LIFE !!!!?!?!?
why is it so hard to accept that people control their own lives !?!??!?

and...obviously we don't have control over our lives ENTIRELY..but the more control we have the better (or worse).
We are not other peoples responsibility once we pass the age of 17 !

[BuckWeisel]

- We DON'T NEED A PIECE OF PAPER (marriage certificate), OVER PRICED DIAMOND RING, GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE AND AN OVERPRICED CEREMONY TO TELL ANYBODY ANYTHING.




I assume you're an artist as we're on an art message board. I would also assume as an artist you know the power of symbols and their importance in society. But before I talk about that, im going to point out some things, while most are obvious you might appreciate the subtlety of others.

By the text you have typed onto these here servers, whether you meant to or not, you have implied that your definition of marriage is what I quoted from you above. I believe this comes from your experiences with failed marriages and current trends in society. Then you move on to assume that anyone who is "for" marriage, has this devalued definition of it also.

Now, back to the point I was going to make earlier. Marriage, to people who take it seriously, is not about paper, rings, ceremonies, or delicious cake. Its about doing something to show that you're committed to the person you love. Its a symbol. It two people's way of saying they love each other on a special level.

While yes, two people can love each other just as much without any of these things, some people prefer to partake in that symbolism. It is very apparent by your fancy formatting and wording that you do not, that is fine. However, please understand that others do not feel the same way you do and constant stating and re-stating of your beliefs are not necessary. In the even that someone would like your prerogative on their outlook on life and love, im sure they would use the convenient messaging system provided to us, and allow you to further tell them what they need.

[gruve24]

I personally don't agree with most of the statements that you've made, but you're free to believe whatever you please and you should accept that others will do the same.ok Dave but for the record I've never had a problem with other peoples choices unless it directly effected me on a negative level.

pongopoo
nice post, I agree fully !



I assume you're an artist as we're on an art message board.Nice deductive skills. Could my sketch blog also have been a small tip off ??

ok BuckWeisel if some folks feel the need to "show they are committed" I've got no problem with it.

others do not feel the same way you do and constant stating and re-stating of your beliefs are not necessary.Quite a few people re-arranged/manipulated my words to fit a non-related point they were trying to make. I had to explain that my words were taken out of context and re-instate my point so there would be no more confusion hence the redundancy. It's not my fault that people misconstrue my words.



In the even that someone would like your prerogative on their outlook on life and love, im sure they would use the convenient messaging system provided to us, and allow you to further tell them what they need.on a public message board I think i'll do as I please. Hence why we have moderators.

[aesir]

a couple of the people in this thread have been a bit too... holier than thou as they've been ragging on gruve and how he wants to live his life. There are an infinite amount of ways to live your life. Find one that works for you. Or dont.

[Vhan Juju]

Marriage, to people who take it seriously, is not about paper, rings, ceremonies, or delicious cake.

no cake~! I'm DOOOMED! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo!

(lol,)

[Joshua Fountain]

I'd like to some day.

[Quigleyer]

so i'm unsure about this thread, about marriage or life or what?

SO...

twenty years from now, New Years Eve (OK, not twenty years exactly!) I'm going to jump out of an airplane, naked except for the yellow cape and designer swimming goggles i'm sure I'll remember to buy for the occasion, in the middle of times square. I'll be on fire. Some witnesses my describe the shit-eating grin on my face, some might notice the tattoo i got ten years ago (that's ten years from NOW) that reads "Lord Humongous"... with a depiction of Lord Humongous himself.

When you see this news report, I want you to remember that was THIS GUY, RIGHT here...

... Hail of gunfire... or just fire.

[Hyskoa]

I think the quote goes something along the lines of "man makes plans and God laughs"


I don't believe in god. I believe in logic and not having one's head up one's arse when it comes to organising and planning a certain small part of your life.
Say 5 years?

All this indicates is that people seem to live their life from one pittfull to another or from one stroke of genius/luck to another. Doesn't seem quite like actually living, more like being a sheep.

[Sideburns]

Luck is when opportunity meets with preperation - Tom Waits

Anyway, I haven't read everything here, but it's an interesting question to ask yourself. Not so much because of the practical pro's and cons to marriage, but because of the underlying question. What do you want, or expect, out of life?

I'm 21, closing in on 22, so I don't classify as the most experienced person in life. However, what I do agree on is Werewolf's statement that life is pretty damn useless if you think about it. And following that train of thought, everything we do is inconsequential by default. Tough shit huh? That said, who the hell cares?

Despite my young age I've seen three good friends pass away well before their time, something which only convinced me more of the fact that life's too short to worry about what may or may not happen ten years from now. I went to a scientific grade highschool, graduated, studied history in University for a year... And quit, just to end up working at a bicycle repair shop and later at a package distribution service as a glorified box carrier and shiftleader, a job I quit last week in order to spend three weeks on my portfolio, art academy application assignment and final project for a 3D course I'm currently on. (All due in about three weeks, ain't life grand?) Needless to say, going to the higschool I went to, I never expected to be working in the fields I worked in, nor had I ever imagined myself there.

Because of that I changed my views on relationships, the question of marriage and the rest of my life. I don't intend on getting married, my parents married because of the benefitis (Both financially and legally) a year after my sister was born. There weren't fancy dresses or parties. Just sweaters, jeans, and the witnesses at city hall. To me, marriage isn't valued as high as it is to some, but I'm not giving a definite no on it either.

I've had plenty of girlfriends, and plenty of relationships that are hardly worthy of carrying that name. Guess I'm a bit unlucky in that department, but hey, that's life, what am I gonna do about it? Do I believe in love? Not at this time, and I'm not bitter about it. I just never experienced it the way it's been described to me by friends, or felt enough for a girl to want to spend my life with her or be with her every waking hour of the day.

In essence, there's no point to life other than living it. And doing the best you can while you're at it. That doesn't mean you have to make huge amounts of money, be successful in your field of choice or be a great lover. It just means doing what feels right at any given time.

So, to answer the question posed in the subject title... I don't rightly know. Do I want to? Not at this particular moment. I find 21 far too young to get married or have children (for myself that is, if anyone else considers themself ready for it, by all means go ahead) My parents were 35 when they had my sister, 37 when they had me and 36 when they got married. So regarding that, I still have plenty of time to figure out what I want.

[DavePalumbo]

I don't believe in god. I believe in logic and not having one's head up one's arse when it comes to organising and planning a certain small part of your life.
Say 5 years?

I don't exactly believe in God either, or at least not in any traditional sense, though I think that quote still elegantly sums things up.

We can convince ourselves otherwise at times, but the best we're ever really doing is steering, we're certainly not "in control" no matter how much planning we do. Countless outside influences and random chances are at work at every moment of the day, to suggest that we call all the shots in our lives is wishful thinking.

[gruve24]

I personally don't agree with most of the statements that you've madeI've been meaning to ask you, what exactly Don't you agree with ?? and why don't you agree with it ??

We can convince ourselves otherwise at times, but the best we're ever really doing is steering, we're certainly not "in control" no matter how much planning we do.You contradicted yourself, Dave. You are trying to hard to sound philosophical. STEERING IS CONTROLLING.


Main Entry:
2steer
Function:
verb
Etymology:
Middle English steren, from Old English stīeran; akin to Old English stēor- steering oar, Greek stauros stake, cross, stylos pillar, Sanskrit sthavira, sthūra stout, thick
Date:
12th century

transitive verb1: to control the course of : direct; especially : to guide by mechanical means (as a rudder)2: to set and hold to (a course)intransitive verb1: to direct the course (as of a ship or automobile)2: to pursue a course of action3: to be subject to steering <the car steers well>

YOU CONTROL the choices you make, the CHOICES YOU MAKE directly effect you.


YOU might NOT be able to control all outcomes and circumstances but YOU DO CONTROL your choices which in turn effects your life which in turn means, YOU DO HAVE CONTROL OVER YOUR LIFE.

[sve]

Unfortunately, 5 years planning (commitment) is not enough. Raising a child takes longer.... Ha, even paying for mortgage you share with your partner might take longer than 5 years. 15, 30 years... you have to plan despite the fact we are all mortal and unpredictable... or you will live the whole life in a smaller than you want apartment, alone, not being able to afford things you can afford when you are a family.

[gruve24]

Raising a child takes longer.... Ha, even paying for mortgage you share with your partner might take longer than 5 years. 15, 30 years... you have to plan despite the fact we are all mortal and unpredictableTOTALLY AGREED SVE!

FACT: Having a family does not guarantee financial success and stability.

FACT : After a person has achieved those things (financial success, happiness and well being without a family), having a family only serves to DRAIN those resources (there might be a few instances where you share some good times and loving memories with your family).

I'm not condemning kids or marriage but if one were to rationally think about how much money, time and effort it takes to ensure a good family structure and how much risk is at stake and how much of your life you can lose for a mere romantic symbol of love, MOST PEOPLE would probably feel a bit differently about having a family AND/OR getting married.

The RISK is LOGICALLY not worth it. Unless you are extremely wealthy and can afford to lose/throw away money.

[sve]

? who said a family guarantees all this? not me. I'm talking about taking a bigger apartment or house because circumstances ask for this and as a result a need for longer commitments. Even in case of roommates relationship you have to be sure in your roommate commitment.
Actually I don't have anymore questions to you or an interest at what you have to say... everything is pretty clear.

[gruve24]

I was agreeing with you SVE read below your quote

[sve]

not the first time I read.

[gruve24]

sorry I tend to make snap decisions when typing, I revise most of my replies after I have posted. It only took me a few seconds to realize I originally mis-read what you typed, but you make EXCELLENT POINTS that will surely HELP anyone who listens to what you have to say.

[sve]

My dear, I'm for taking risks in our life and I think logic doesn't rule in human relationships. They built on instincts very often and emotion, it is irrational and against one's selfish interest sometimes. But sure it is not meaningless.

[DavePalumbo]

I've been meaning to ask you, what exactly Don't you agree with ?? and why don't you agree with it ??

Without going back and re-reading this entire thread, your general philosophy, so far as I understand it, seems very surface and self centered. You seem mostly interested in sex and short term commitments, if any commitments at all. In simple terms, it seems that you don't believe in "love" and don't believe that anyone who gets married will ever find happiness with their partner.

I'm not saying any of this as a judgment or put-down, simply a summary of my interpretations of the things which you've said here. Personally though, I feel otherwise.

You contradicted yourself, Dave. You are trying to hard to sound philosophical. STEERING IS CONTROLLING.

I'm not trying hard to sound anything, I'm just telling you the way I see the world. Steering is maintaining partial control. Obviously we all have some control over the events in our lives, and even in cases which we feel we "have no choice", it's really just that we have no desirable choices. To think that you have complete control over your life is to be living in a fantasy though. You have absolutely no idea what may happen in your life or in the world tomorrow that falls outside your control. A car accident, an accidental meeting, an earthquake, a promotion, a death in the family, etc. Right place right time, wrong place wrong time. Things are always moving around you and all we really to is try to anticipate and to react. I call that steering.

Personally, my life has undergone radical and, to a certain extent, irreversible changes in the past eight months that I could not possibly have predicted and in doing so, it's cause further changes in the lives of those closest to me. It's far from the first time that I've experienced this. Be the changes good or bad, we just have to adapt and roll with them, and try our best to guide our lives with or against (as the situation may be) a current of outside influences

[Rabid]

One thing that has always seemed like an inevitable struggle for me is settling down with someone as well. Given my nature as an artist and the fact that, no offense to those, but all th MB masters and likewise other massive devoters to art seem to mostly be single or going from relationship to relationship with no real success. However, this only seems consistent with the younger professionals (20-35). Is it just me or does it always seem to take artists longer to find their one than others, if at all?

My problem is my advancement as an artist tends to superceed anything else in its path...

I recently tried dating a girl I had known for about 5 years and always loved but never had the courage to go through with it. But it never turns out like the brainwashing love stories. She simply called me one day and said she didn't think of me that way...terribly disappointing but at least we are still friends. And, in light of this wonderful subject, I have found even more courage to take back the one question I never got answered...why she didn't give me a shot. Can't wait to hear this.....

[Arteater]

I try not to think too much into the future, I have waisted too much time hoping and waiting to find someone, when the person was always right there. I'm not getting married anytime soon, Its hard to settle with the way things are
today. let alone bringing a kid in this world with my fathers jeans. Its sad but I don't want to continue his name :(

[Cthogua]

Something I find interesting about this thread is for all the agonized searching and reasoning for why people get married, only one person has mentioned the social aspect of it. Honestly I think the biggest reason most of the people that get married do so is because it's part of our culture to do so. We are raised with the idea that marriage is the next step for a relationship, that it solidifies the couple as a new "family unit." From a cultural stand point it's a way of attempting to ensure the survival of that culture. Sure you can throw all the sheepish, baaaing, conformist accusations at people for doing what their cultures dictate, but the reality is no one is immune from the influence of their culture. You want to see someone who is truly living life free from the dominating influence of culture? It's that naked guy standing on the street corner speaking to his hand in a language no one else understands.

This is a forum of artists and because of certain beliefs about individualism and creativity is probably home to alot of people who consider themselves "counter-culture" or atleast individuals attempting to "see through the bullshit" Undoubtably our culture, and many others are brimming with bullshit, mostly left over societal controls from harder times in humanities past. Marriage is hardly the most sinister of these cultural ideals.

[gruve24]

far as I understand it, seems very surface and self centered. You seem mostly interested in sex and short term commitments, if any commitments at all.

soI'm not saying any of this as a judgment or put-downOnce again Dave you have FOOLISHLY contradicted yourself, you ARE INDEED passing judgement on me. Even worse you have MIS-judged me. How do you know what I want ?? Where did I state any specifics on what I was interested in ??


Obviously we all have some control over the events in our lives, and even in cases which we feel we "have no choice", it's really just that we have no desirable choices.

we're certainly not "in control" no matter how much planning we do.Yet another contradiction...When ever someone calls you out on your flawed thinking you conveniently change your words around to come off sounding like you have an idea of what your talking about. Which in reality YOU DON'T. You simply piece together words into something you think sounds good and makes sense in your own LITTLE world.

A car accident, an accidental meeting, an earthquake, a promotion, a death in the family, etc. Right place right time, wrong place wrong time. Things are always moving around you and all we really to is try to anticipate and to react. I call that steering.
freak accidents can happen at any time. What does a freak accident have to do with a persons ability to make decisions that effects the direction of their life ??? You mention a promotion. A person has a choice whether or not they want to accept the promotion, hence they have control.
A potential car accident is not going to control your decision on where to live or what kind of job you will pursue.

Personally, my life has undergone radical and, to a certain extent, irreversible changes in the past eight months that I could not possibly have predicted and in doing so, it's cause further changes in the lives of those closest to me. It's far from the first time that I've experienced this. Be the changes good or bad, we just have to adapt and roll with them, and try our best to guide our lives with or against (as the situation may be) a current of outside influencesYou don't have to adapt or roll with anything that you CHOOSE NOT to adapt or roll with. YOU DO HAVE TO ADAPT AND ROLL WITH THE CHOICES THAT YOU MAKE, the choices that YOU MAKE directly effect your life.

Since YOU ARE MAKING THE CHOICES you are DEFINITELY IN CONTROL of your life.

you can argue with me till your blue in the face...but the bottom line is, YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO PREDICT WHERE YOUR LIFE IS HEADED (which is a stupid thing to do in the first place) But YOU CAN CONTROL THE DIRECTION YOUR LIFE IS HEADED IN.

unexpected occurrences have nothing to do with control as long as you are able to make decisions during these occurrences YOU IN FACT ARE IN CONTROL.



My problem is my advancement as an artist tends to superceed anything else in its path...WHY ?!?! why is this a problem ???

I have found even more courage to take back the one question I never got answered...why she didn't give me a shot. Can't wait to hear this.....WHY ?!?!?! why would you care about the reasons that a girl DIDN'T want you ??? what is so courageous about that ??? There are an infinite amount of reasons people don't want other people..from the way they dress, the sound of there voice to the way they walk. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY THIS GIRL DIDN'T WANT YOU. What matters is you go out there and FIND ANOTHER GIRL THAT APPRECIATES YOU FOR YOUR QUALITIES. Don't be the pathetic emo loser that stays friends with a girl who has no interest in you, sure it hurts when people we like don't like as in the same way, but thats life, Be a man and move on, find another girl and most importantly KEEP WORKING HARD AT YOUR ART AND MAKING IT THE FOCAL POINT OF YOUR LIFE !

Marriage is hardly the most sinister of these cultural ideals.Its not that there is anything wrong with marriage itself. It is the government interference that corrupts marriage. Why is the state involved in the personal lives of people ??

If Americans were able to marry without gaining or losing anything then there would be nothing wrong with marriage.

No Such thing as Alimony
No such thing as Prenuptial
No Such thing as Divorce lawyers
nothing..

just 2 people who if they so choose would be religiously joined FOR FREE !! left to celebrate the whole event any which way they pleased. But there would be NO obligation to PAY ANYTHING*

[enrigo]

unexpected occurrences have nothing to do with control as long as you are able to make decisions during these occurrences

A bit extreme example, but say you are an athlete heading for the top and that's you plan for the future. Then you got into a car accident and you became a quadriplegic, that is going to change 90% of the course of your life for sure.

I don't see anything contradicting in Dave's posts, it's just that he sees a different in having "some control" and being "in control". The athlete's accident is something that normal people with some control cannot avoid for sure, but can prevent it from happening to some extent (drive carefully and etc.).

[Rabid]

WHY ?!?!?! why would you care about the reasons that a girl DIDN'T want you ??? what is so courageous about that ??? There are an infinite amount of reasons people don't want other people..from the way they dress, the sound of there voice to the way they walk. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY THIS GIRL DIDN'T WANT YOU. What matters is you go out there and FIND ANOTHER GIRL THAT APPRECIATES YOU FOR YOUR QUALITIES. Don't be the pathetic emo loser that stays friends with a girl who has no interest in you, sure it hurts when people we like don't like as in the same way, but thats life, Be a man and move on, find another girl and most importantly KEEP WORKING HARD AT YOUR ART AND MAKING IT THE FOCAL POINT OF YOUR LIFE !



It's not that I care on a massive scale about the answer dude. It's just small talk, since we are still friends man. I resent being called emo, in fact I have already started dating other women again, which means you havn't being keeping up the the Rabid Gazette paper, but then again there isn't one so don't pretend like your reading it...

by the way...

Tonight, somone breaks into your house and you hear them, go to stop them and they shoot you in the face.....

control that....

The decisions that come at you are not going to always have any rational difference
ex. Execution, would you like it in the chest or the head? WOW now theres a choice that gives me alot of consiquential differences....

You think your in control over your values and what you put effort into, and your right you are, but your not in control of circumstances that can totally fuck up anything you thought would turn out the way you wanted just because "you put all your effort into it..."

[Vhan Juju]

its like listioning to marrige advice from phyco mantis...(Sorry, I just HAD to thow that out there!)

=Vhan switches his controller to port two, braceing himself for incomeing flame=

[Rabid]

unexpected occurrences have nothing to do with control as long as you are able to make decisions during these occurrences YOU IN FACT ARE IN CONTROL.


Damn I wish all occurences were the garden variety (occurances with decisions based in them) but they arn't.....sorry

Then you would be the next Dr. Phil but even that is a kunundrum in itself.

[gruve24]

Then you got into a car accident and you became a quadriplegic, that is going to change 90% of the course of your life for sure.

by the way...

Tonight, somone breaks into your house and you hear them, go to stop them and they shoot you in the face.....

control that....You both mention unexpected circumstances and freak accidents..and then both try to use them as examples of a person having control (or lack of). and I'm wondering why ?? I don't disagree that a person can not control outside circumstances or freak accidents. But a person does control the decisions they make after the occurrences. An athlete who becomes a quadriplegic may have lost the ability to become a star athlete but they have not lost the ability to make daily decisions on how to live there life. They still have control of there lives they just lost the ability to achieve a certain goal.

Getting shot by an intruder is a circumstance that the victim has no control over, NO ONE HAS REFUTED THAT, NO ONE HAS SAID PEOPLE CONTROL CIRCUMSTANCES. But if you survive the shooting you still control the decisions you make to live your life daily..YOU ARE STILL IN CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE, you just had no control over a circumstance.

I resent being called emo,I didn't call you EMO, I said "don't be" in other words, "don't become"

Damn I wish all occurences were the garden varietyNOT ALL OCCURRENCES ARE PEOPLE GETTING SHOT IN THE FACE OR BECOMING QUADRIPLEGIC!!


I don't see anything contradicting in Dave's posts:wtf: all one has to do is simply read his posts.

[Rabid]

Iv'e stated my qualms, and frankly this is getting off topic and these differences are boring me since there is nothing to convince you, something tells me you might understand later in your life but that is up to time and not me...let me know how your CONTROL CIRCUMSTANCES theory pans out...just remember your practice theory is you, you are the test subject...in all the best, in 50 years time if you have come up with a solid conclusion most wont remember your arguement to begin with, probably why I am so dissinterested in dealing with your statements. This is my strongest reason why you should stop professing and live it because your not going to save any lives here.

I'm sorry if I seem frustrating with my dismissals, but I see topics like this get off track so fast because someone has THE IDEA....and THE IDEA can't be disuaded. I feel like I'm selling rubbers to a blind priest...

Mad props to the moderators for the lounge section since they have to deal with this trivial back and forth shit all day...later

[DavePalumbo]

you asked what I disagreed with, I told you straight up. If I've misunderstood you, perhaps you need to be more careful in how you express yourself, because this thread seems to be full of other people who are getting the same impression. I don't see the things I've written as contradictions at all, but I can see how they might seem so when trying to oversimplify a complex issue. In any case, I'm with SVE on this one, no point going further.

[KLEVR]

hhhmmmm... while there's a part of me that wants nothing more than to get married and be a dad, i don't think i've ever made a relationship last longer than a few months, as so it seems very unlikely, but who knows? I've met a total of two women i could really envision myself with in a marital relationship, and i've consciously passed up opportunities to be romantically involved with both of them, doesn't make alot of sense to anyone i tell that to, and not much to me sometimes when i think about it, but then i think of everything else in life that doesn't make sense and i feel a bit better. So we'll see.

[losloslos]

yeah, i feel perfectly without girlfriend ~

[Ilaekae]

Damn...so much mis-communication...

Wouldn't it be kewl to have something where we could all discuss hairy subjects like this at length without getting bent out of shape? I don't know...maybe something like an electronic thingie...maybe over phone wires or computers or something...

We could call it the InnerNet or something kewl like that...






...nah. :P

[daestwen]

Damn...so much mis-communication...

Wouldn't it be kewl to have something where we could all discuss hairy subjects like this at length without getting bent out of shape? I don't know...maybe something like an electronic thingie...maybe over phone wires or computers or something...

We could call it the InnerNet or something kewl like that...






...nah. :P

Sounds like quite the pipe-dream to me, sweetheart. :P

[serhc]

You contradicted yourself, Dave. You are trying to hard to sound philosophical. STEERING IS CONTROLLING.

-

The RISK is LOGICALLY not worth it.

the THING IS, YOU see, WHEN YOU STEER, there IS AN ENGINE that provides YOU WITH THE INERTIA AND without it you CANnot MOVE. SO, THE IDEA is that life SWEEPS YOU ALONG AND the currents themselves are hard TO CONTROL. if YOU MISS A TURN or A stop your ROUTE IS altered and YOU HAVE TO go TO PLAN B. DON'T TAKE THE analogy too literally, but the IDEA BEHIND it is that no MATTER HOW much control you believe yourself to have, YOU'RE GOING to END up SOMEWHERE ELSE.

FIND happiness WHERE you WILL - and IF FOR YOU that's some KIND OF self sufficiency, CONGRATULATIONS. however, DON'T TRY TO convince us that LONG TERM RELATIONSHIPS, RESULTING in children is illogical. GO TELL your parents, OR WHOEVER, or WHATEVER institution THAT RAISED you they've MADE a GRAVE mistake and so SHOULD STOP their OPERATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY???????????????????? ? ? ??? ? if YOU REALLY believe SELF improvement is the ONLY REASON to live, BECAUSE the FINANCIAL and EMOTIONAL RISKS are too much OF A burden - then YOU WOULD simply STOP LIVING RIGHT now.
you SAY, people who GET MARRIED are illogical, BECAUSE THEY risk so MUCH FOR something THEY CARE about, THAT they desire. that is, THEY ARE willing TO RISK MUCH, for the center OF THEIR VALUES (or whatEVER the PROPER TERM is).

and UNLESS you are COMPLETELY APATHETIC, you TOO have a center OF values, for which YOU ARE willing to RISK much. YOU RISK not achieving maximum happiness, TURNING YOUR back on ESTABLISHED TRADITIONS. IN FACT you take a BIG risk, fostering AN attitude like that - ITS VERY hard to REVERSE. YOU TAKE self IMPROVEMENT to be the greatest HAPPINESS, AND yet YOU DON'T consider the risks of AVOIDING PERSONAL INTIMACY.

YOU RISK a DELUSION of happiness by SEEKING IT in yourself, just AS YOU believe THE REST OF US TO be DELUDED by traditional MEANS of approaching THE SAME PROBLEM.

so in THE END, YOU HAVE no more proof than TRADITIONALISTS that YOUR WAY OF LIFE is empirically BETTER, thus - YOU ARE GUILTY of intellectual DISHONESTY by OUTRIGHT ASSUMING your way is THE WAY OF achieving MAXIMUM HAPPINESS without sufficient EVIDENCE.

[gruve24]

There is plenty of evidence..There are MORE people who are divorced and single than there are people who are married.

Happily married people are in the minority (an extremely small minority).

DON'T TRY TO convince us that LONG TERM RELATIONSHIPS, RESULTING in children is illogical.

I don't have anything against kids. If people are financially secure and have a genuine desire to have kids, I'm all for that !!! it is the best way to propagate the species under the most ideal circumstances.

I just don't see a reason to get married, thats all.

Believing there is NO reason for marriage does not mean people don't need love or companionship because we DO. We don't need to compromise our values if we don't marry. In fact not marrying seems like it would be a more honest test of love.

If your with someone whom you love but won't marry lets see if it is the idea of marriage and getting half of your money or TRUE love that keeps them around.

[Floy]

You know, instead of bitching about what others are doing or would do.... There is a simple answer.. Yes, I want to get married. No I don't want to...Whats the point of turning this thread into complicated babble? No point in all...... So for a very quick answer. Yes, I wish to get married and pop out a few kids. Around the ages of 24-30 To be exact.

[Floy]

I totally agree with you. I think the people that push their values on someone else have a serious commitment and intimacy issues. When most likely it what they believe, is in fact from sever emotional stress and trauma caused by something when they were a small kid, It isn't all that healthy to continue acting and thinking the way they do today, I suggest several years of therapy ..... 8)~

[gruve24]

You know, instead of bitching about what others are doing or would dowho is bitching ?? People are posting to me directly, I am simply replying back to them.

I think the people that push their values on someone else have a serious commitment and intimacy issues. When most likely it what they believe, is in fact from sever emotional stress and trauma caused by something when they were a small kidYou have managed to come up with an elaborate IMAGINARY story with spiteful undertones...and for what reason ???

You believe people who think differently than you MUST have suffered
sever emotional stress and trauma caused by something when they were a small kid You also think
It isn't all that healthy to continue acting and thinking the way they do today, I suggest several years of therapy

Why do you think these things ??? Why do you make the assumptions that you do Floy ??

I think the people that push their values on someone else have a serious commitment and intimacy issues.Why ?!?!? Why do you think so ?? and please provide proof of people "pushing their values on someone."




YOU RISK a DELUSION of happiness by SEEKING IT in yourself, just AS YOU believe THE REST OF US TO be DELUDED by traditional MEANS of approaching THE SAME PROBLEM.How can you make anyone else happy if you can't find happiness in yourself ?? What happens if your a good person but never find love ??? What happens to priests and nuns who take vows of celibacy and never marry ???

[eskanto]

oh god, when will this thread die. end this already.

[gruve24]

It's funny...but I always ask myself, if there's a certain topic that doesn't interest a person and they have the choice to ignore it, why would they choose to be a part of it ??

What keeps these conflicted individuals coming back to the topic that they have no interest in ?? and why are they complaining ??

[Sorknes]

Well, my two cents on the original question...

I was one of those girls that was pretty sure I'd never marry. My parents are divorced, and I didn't see a reason for marrying if it wasn't gonna be for life. It was a nice divorce (lucky us), but still, marrying felt hypocritical.

When 14 my mum gave birth to my brother, way later than my sister and I. I spent a lot of my mid teens taking care of him due to health problems in the family. So I didn't want kids, I felt I'd already done a part of that, and I also felt that even if I loved my brother to death I wasn't cut out to be a parent. I felt that "borrowing" kids from friends and family was the best I could do, so I could "give them back" when I'd had enough.

I am at times a VERY solitary person. Which also gave good reasoning for not marrying and not having kids.

As for the ride? Well, what do you know. One and a half year ago, I married. That's the best decision I've done in my whole friggin life. I've been so lucky that I've found a person I really, really love, and a person that understands me. For a solitary person to have a husband that is nowhere near going on my nerves socially, it's Heaven. With a big H. We're two to share concerns, two to share happy times, two to delegate the work, two to have the best memories together. And so on. And since we both have that solitairy streak, we're good at leaving each other alone when it's needed. When you find someone you really, really want to grow old with, it's worth it. Way worth it. I've been in longer relationships before, but this was the only one I've ever wanted to marry.

It means for life, and I know a lot that end up divorced thought it would be, but I hope we're of the kind that will stick through it. It's for good days AND bad days. Marriage will at some point need heavy work to prevail. I hope I'm cut out of the same as my grandparents. They're 95 now, and has been married for friggin 70 years. And it wasn't all good days.

As for kids. That has changed too. Surprise, surprise. The reason for that is that I for the first time in my life has found a man that I'd really like to see as a father. And I'd like to be mother next to him. And my biological clock has started ticking. As you get older, the reasons and convictions you had as young, and in the early 20's starts to change. You get more mature, you get another perspective of life. I can't even imagine what I'll feel and think and mean 30 or 50 years from now. And I hope that I will have kids around to share that. I feel different towards kids now, I don't just want to "borrow" them. I feel with the extra luggage I got during the last years, I'm more cut to be a parent.

I'm glad I didn't marry early. I'm glad I didn't get kids early. Some say it's good to have it done with, but to be honest, I don't think I'd last long with any of it if I'd done it in the early 20's. You change as life goes by, and I am ready for kids now. So it's about time to cross my fingers and hope. :)

Well, two and a half cents then. :)

[Gloominati]

gruve24-

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......huhu...haha, yeah :D

no, seriously:

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA,

duuuuude, either you've got some kind of really weird complex or you are just veeeeery very young, at least younger than me, and I am 19 :P

Of course there is nothing bad about not wanting to get married, but the reasons you give to defend your attitude towards this questions are hilariously childish and funny :D

It's all about that gangster "uh I'm THE man. I don't need anybody, cause I'm so tough, I'm having so much sex with so many women I'm leaving just afer I fucked them, cause...uh, ...I'm so tough...........yeah......uh..tough, hehe"
Man, this videogame-Maincharacter, gangsterrapper attitude is so hilarious that I honestly just can't stop laughing at you right now, grow the fuck up, dude! noone wants you to get married, just grow up and turn a little bit wiser.

[Cthogua]

There is plenty of evidence..There are MORE people who are divorced and single than there are people who are married.

Happily married people are in the minority (an extremely small minority).


I like how we're just making things up and stating them as facts now. From every place I can find statistics on the matter it looks like the divorce rate hovers slightly below 50% and appears to have actually dropped since the 90s to slightly below 40%. Now that probably sounds shocking if you think that every marriage should work out....but thats just foolish. However if you're looking at it in terms of predicting you chances of having a happy marriage or atleast one in which you're commited enough to work through the rough spots, the odds are atleast half and half, if not slightly in your favor.

If you're basing your life decisions on the probability of them working out (Which IMO is a horrible idea)...you should probably get out of the art game then. I don't have any definite statistics on the matter, so I'm not going to state them like their facts...what I do know is that art schools are churning out hundreds of fresh young artists every nine months or so, every month for schools like Full Sail....and only a small fraction of them actually go on to become professional artists. From my graduating class I would estimate that not more than 10% of them got jobs. I imagine the percentage is even less for a specialized position like a concept artist.

All that having been said, I think statistics are shakey at best, and should not be used as a predictive rule to base your life around. Statisics are falsely objective observations that can be subtly tweaked to appear however you would like them to. They can partially be used to predict the actions of large groups, but not of individuals. The individual is chaos, he or she can do whatever they want at any moment. Society, and cultural norms are the attractor that produces stability and structure from that chaos. Just because 40% of marriages end in divorce doesn not mean that YOU are 40% likely to get divorced, it means that out of a some arbitrarily large group of people less than half of them will get divorced for a whole slew of different INDIVIDUAL reasons. It also means that the attractor holding our society together is breaking down. With people abandoning traditional ways of being and finding their own norms the larger over all structure fragments and starts to become smaller pockets of tight knit organization loosely held within a larger structure by a few tenuous similarities. Thus statisics claiming to be able to predict the actions of these groups become less and less reliable as each group begins to react in their own way to effectors. Alright, sorry...its a rainy friday here in Raleigh NC, I'm procrastinating at work and just brough chaos theory into a discussion about marriage.
:geekg:

[InvertedChalupa]

"I'm not bashing or flaming anyone where would you get that idea Obsidian ?"

"Only FOOLS get married, Settling down is for people who have given up on life."

wow.

[gruve24]

ok, let me re-phrase. Marriage is a foolish ritual.

Hopefully I didn't hurt anyones feelings.

"wow"

[Gloominati]

ok, let me re-phrase. Marriage is a foolish ritual.

Hopefully I didn't hurt anyones feelings.

"wow"



:assspank:

[Chris Noeth]

Having kids and to raise them is the only way to achieve immortality.
And regarding your question about the cycles everyone goes through I think you are asking in the wrong forum because here are many artists around who exactly do NOT go through the cycles 90% of the rest of the world goes through. ;)

Best,

Chris

[Movenski]

i saw the title of this thread and was interested then i did a bit of skimming and saw all this commotion with "gruve24" ... shit's a pretty heated debate,

well as for getting married and settling down, i'm newly married and after reading that it's a "foolish ritual" i do feel a bit insulted, but i realise gruve, you're a very cynical person (i gather this from your posts) and you're naturally prone to stances like "marriage is foolish" "relationships aren't worth it." and fine, thats your thing. but don't insinuate that people are idiots for choosing someone to be their partner in life, thats just rude.

as for the topic of this thread, i think getting married actually only has as much bearing on "you" (the subjective/anyone you) making artwork as you let it. i know folks at both ends of the spectrum on this front - people who're fantastic talents, get married, get a family going and cease producing art and lead perfectly fulfilling lives. tandemly one of my friends just had a baby a few months back and is working on MULTIPLE paintings and drawings AND taking care of a newborn and being a wife! i myself am just coming out of a big post grad lull and am rediscovering what i love about making work. but the bottom line is, if you're driven then you're driven, and if you're not, you're not. noone else stops you from making work or achieving as an artist, you're responsible for that yourself. you can't blame your spouse for not letting you work etc etc.
earnestly i think the phrase "get married and settle down" is problematic, the only thing getting married did for me was give me someone in my life who's supportive and is as ardent about wanting me to succeed as i am, and is there every day to help me out, and there's not a damn thing wrong with that. so whomever started this thread, if you're thinking about getting hitched, i'll say from experience, its not the worst idea you've ever had. you just have to make certain whoever you marry knows what they're signing up for, my wife did, (as did i with her) and we have a great marriage. so don't let cynical people talk you out of it with "bla bla bla 50% end in divorce bla bla bla states too involved with marriage bla bla bla"
these people aren't married, probably haven't been married, and if they have they clearly don't have the qualities to stay married and as a result of any of the above shouldn't talk about things of which they clearly have no idea what goes into them being married is just as great a thing as you think it can be and just as awful a thing as you think it can be. its really about saying to one person " you're the one i want to have around until i die" and despite others thinking, otherwise... its not bad having two players on "Team You".

RM

[Ashkitty]

I like to randomly wonder what would happen if gruvey went blind. Theoretically, not insultingly. I know he would "take control" of this new fate, but I wonder what the play by play would be. I doubt we'd hear about it for a long time, due to obvious acclimation reasons and his non reliance on people...

Anyways, back to the beginning.

I really like the idea of marriage, and sincerely hope to be married one day. Sure, there would be problems, but for each of those there is a happy moment that wouldn't have happened alone. This has been touched on repeatedly, as history has proven it true.

As for chitlens.. well, when I was younger, I was completely and utterly opposed to the very idea of having anything as mis-behaved as myself to deal with like my mom had to (...hindsight, lol). Now, because of life experience and a slowly growing maturity, I toss the idea around every now and then, going in and out of the phases of "maybe" and "hell no." This leads me to assume that one day a yes might even be thrown in, but time will tell, and I try to think my life-altering decisions over very thoroughly.

I'm currently quite happy in my relationship with my boyfriend, too. Without his help and support, I might not be doing so well in school and my art studies. We are both artists. Ironically enough (to a section of an aforementioned debate), dating him has been a tremendous inspiration to my confidence and improvement as an artist.

Fancy that. :)

[gruve24]

but don't insinuate that people are idiots for choosing someone to be their partner in life, thats just rude.People are NOT idiots for getting married but they are taking a big risk that does NOT need to be taken.

"marriage is foolish" "relationships aren't worth it." and fine, thats your thing.relationships are definitely worth it and beneficial!!! especially when you have 2 people who compliment each other well.

i think the phrase "get married and settle down" is problematic, the only thing getting married did for me was give me someone in my life who's supportive and is as ardent about wanting me to succeed as i am, and is there every day to help me out, and there's not a damn thing wrong with that.Thats awesome !! I'm not saying you or anyone else has ABSOLUTELY MADE A MISTAKE choosing to get married, I'm saying you have put yourself in a position to lose money and the freedom to love other people in the future. You have basically assumed that you can predict the future and the 2 of you will always be loving and supportive without any concern that PEOPLE IN FACT DO CHANGE !! and not always for the better. Relationships IN FACT DO CHANGE, and they can become more toxic and harmful than helpful. Nothing is 100% guaranteed so why even lock yourself into a decision(marriage) that will have no effect on the nature of a who a person is ?? Why take away the option to leave if things become unhealthy ??? and even if things don't become unhealthy what will marriage change if 2 people stay together and love each other ??

these people aren't married, probably haven't been married, and if they have they clearly don't have the qualities to stay married and as a result of any of the above shouldn't talk about things of which they clearly have no idea what goes into them being married is just as great a thing as you think it can be and just as awful a thing as you think it can be.Now your just making ASSumptions and being judgemental. Just because I don't want to be married why do you feel that I don't have the qualities to make a marriage work ??? If anyone ever met me in person I think they would be extremely surprised that I'm not married already. I'm not a bad a person and don't think any of you are either. I just choose not to put myself in a position that prevents me from leaving when I want to.

If I truly loved a woman I probably wouldn't want to leave (with or without marriage)??


I like to randomly wonder what would happen if gruvey went blind. Theoretically, not insultingly. I know he would "take control" of this new fate, but I wonder what the play by play would be. I doubt we'd hear about it for a long time, due to obvious acclimation reasons and his non reliance on people.where were you going with this ??

[sve]

I developed a new question to you with your later revelation... the women with whom you have relationships,, are they aware and in agreement with your way to look at things... do you warn them in the beginning of the relationship that you have to be free to leave them in any moment. Is this symmetrical? Could be your leaving them a preventative measure not to allow them to leave you fist?
You know that it will be all right only if you deal with women with the same principals and expectations and if they are aware of the agreement... any other way, when person is not aware of your open kind of relationship preference is a deceit. And I think you carry responsibility of not warning this person.

[DSillustration]

I just choose not to put myself in a position that prevents me from leaving when I want to.

And there you have it.
Classic commitment issues.

The dynamics of a relationship change when you know you HAVE to make it work.
When the option of leaving is there, there is not as much incentive to resolve problems.

I wouldn't want a business partner that is unwilling to commit despite hardships.
The same way I wouldn't want a life partner that is going to just walk away whenever they feel like it.

Marriage is not a 'social imposed shackle'... it's a promise.
It's a promise to your partner that no matter what, you are there by their side...
forever.
You may not have met a person worthy of that promise yet.
But the real question is, are YOU worthy of that promise?
When you have that level of commitment, you are free to explore deeper aspects of love and life without fear.
What woman is going to want to bear the child of a man that just "leaves whenever he wants to"?

Besides,
Isn't taking marriage advice from Gruve a little like getting sex advice from a virgin?
Oh, I know, I know, "I don't have to be married to see what it's like, blah, blah."
The fact is, you have nothing but notions of what marriage is.
You have zero experience in the matter.

[Flake]

I wouldn't want a business partner that is unwilling to commit despite hardships.
The same way I wouldn't want a life partner that is going to just walk away whenever they feel like it.
Marriage is not a 'social imposed shackle'... it's a promise.
It's a promise to your partner that no matter what, you are there by their side...
forever.

I never got married but I did make that same promise many, many years back and I've stuck to it. It's been generally awesome, sometimes difficult, rarely bizarre and traumatic but I still love her more than cakes.

Quite the adventure so far.

Isn't taking marriage advice from Gruve a little like getting sex advice from a virgin?
Oh, I know, I know, "I don't have to be married to see what it's like, blah, blah."
The fact is, you have nothing but notions of what marriage is.
You have zero experience in the matter.
Yup, might as well have the fat guy offering advice on diets and marathon running..

[gruve24]

I wouldn't want a business partner that is unwilling to commit despite hardships.
The same way I wouldn't want a life partner that is going to just walk away whenever they feel like it.
Don't you dare act like you know anything about me, and don't pretend that you know anything about my work ethic and sense of loyality.

Marriage is not a 'social imposed shackle'... it's a promise.
It's a promise to your partner that no matter what, you are there by their side...
forever.Save your pathetic attempts to try and sound virtuous for someone under the age of 25 whose only experience with life and love is what they watch in the movies. I and NO OTHER HUMAN BEING is obligated to promise anything to anyone if I choose not to. Don't you ever confuse business and reliability with your idiotic sentiments on love, and don't ever try and tarnish my name by implying that I might be an unreliable employee/ partner.

get one thing straight fool, if I commit myself to work/employer/person then I am doing just that. I am choosing to make an obligation that I am responsible for !!

I don't need someone like you to judge me based on my 1 opinion of marriage. Don't think you know anything about me or my life based on that opinion.

But the real question is, are YOU worthy of that promise?it is a simple question and its not a question I can answer. The only person that can answer that is the person that needs to choose if they want to be in a relationship with me. I don't need to prove myself worthy of anything ! i only need to be true to myself and if a woman admires my qualities then it is up to her to decide how intimate she chooses to be with me.

When you have that level of commitment, you are free to explore deeper aspects of love and life without fear.
What woman is going to want to bear the child of a man that just "leaves whenever he wants to"?Please explain in detail what "level of commitment" you are talking about ??? how do you separate levels of commitment??? what deeper aspects of love and life do you think I am afraid to explore ???

The fact is, you have nothing but notions of what marriage is.
You have zero experience in the matter.Again, you try to assume that you know me or anything about me based on an opinion about a ritual. I don't need to climb Mount Everest to know that it is dangerous and I would be taking a risk, I don't need to play with fire to know I could get burned, I don't need to loan money to a crack head to know that there is a strong chance that I will never get that money back.


I don't NEED to be married to love someone.
Hopefully that computes through your head DSIllustration.

What woman is going to want to bear the child of a man that just "leaves whenever he wants to"?A mans has to WANT to first be a father before a woman can worry about wether or not she should bear children with him, This is not a question YOU need to worry about nor is it a question YOU NEED TO ASK ON ANYONES BEHALF (besides your own). make a note of that.

[DSillustration]

get one thing straight fool

haha

You chump.

[Elwell]

You know, out of all of Werewolf's stupid, retarded threads, this just may be the stupidest and most retarded, simply because it's managed to generate OVER A HUNDRED AND SIXTY REPLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course, at least half of those are gruve24 vs. everybody, which is it's own special brand of retarded.
And speaking of retarded, everybody knows about arguing on the internet and the Special Olympics, right?
Say goodnight, Gracie.