Knowledge and Imagination

[Max Challie]

Something I've noticed is that knowledge destroys imagination. The more you know, the less there is to question. The more you know about something, less you can play with it, and the experience of that moment and activity in combination with the object you're playing with diminishes. You know the feeling, surely? Maybe when you first found this site, there was a feeling. Or when you started playing a game of some sort?


[edit]: If you're new to this thread, it's been discussed and opinions have changed. Please read to the latest comment before posting.

[kev ferrara]

Knowledge destroys the mystery of those things that can be "solved". But there are many many many things that will remain unknowable forever.

These are the universal themes of art. Love, death, life, the future, the past, adventure, conflict, emotions, the supernatural, etc.

kev

[Max Challie]

Yeah. It kind of tells us that life is full of puzzles. Have fun with them!

[Elwell]

The more you know, the less there is to question.
If you truly believe this, then you don't know anything.

[Jason Rainville]

The more you know about something, less you can play with it

I would argue the exact opposite.

EDIT: shit, Elwell beat me to it.

[armando]

As the others have said, this idea of yours is total rubbish.

[Nam]

I was much less creative when I knew nothing.


Fear kills imagination.

[Max Challie]

Now that I think about it, yes. I find them both to be the case.

But anyway, thanks for putting your rejection of an idea across in such a rude manner.

[Flake]

You see rude, we see honest.

[Elwell]

Now that I think about it, yes. I find them both to be the case.

Ultimate cop-out.

[Stephen Mason]

at least follow it through lol. Argue your point even if you think your wrong you must have some reason for feeling this way.

My opinion

I do understand what you are trying to get at but your not really hitting the nail you could say. When your are learning about art one thing you should keep in mind is that you are just looking at other peoples points of views, how people reach the goal they want to reach in there work. if you are talking about making things look real and learning about things like perspective etc. You should use this knowledge you have acquired as guidelines not as rules. Its great to find out "rules" like ones in perspective and see how far you can bend them. An opportunity to be creative which you wouldnt have if you didnt know the rules? Art is not about right and wrong its about what you feel is right.

Peace keep at it

[Max Challie]

You see rude, we see honest.

I'm not sure. Are the responses always relevant to the subject, or do some people simply not like me because I don't post art?

Ultimate cop-out.

When I get replies like that of armando's, it's not very encouraging to stick with the topic.

at least follow it through lol. Argue your point even if you think your wrong you must have some reason for feeling this way.

My opinion

I do understand what you are trying to get at but your not really hitting the nail you could say. When your are learning about art one thing you should keep in mind is that you are just looking at other peoples points of views, how people reach the goal they want to reach in there work. if you are talking about making things look real and learning about things like perspective etc. You should use this knowledge you have acquired as guidelines not as rules. Its great to find out "rules" like ones in perspective and see how far you can bend them. An opportunity to be creative which you wouldnt have if you didnt know the rules? Art is not about right and wrong its about what you feel is right.

Peace keep at it

EDIT: Thank you! Haha, I was composing the following paragraph, and posted it, only to see this. I just get turned off by replies that are rude on the surface, from my point of view, even though they may be helpful. Some people will simply reject an idea out of it not fitting them; a teenage stereotype might reject the idea of doing art at home instead of going out to drink alchohol, because it doesn't fit into their mindset. I should continue things through to a certain point, and if it is still rejected, then drop it. But stick with it.


Perhaps I just need to explain further. I can see that my first post was too quick and didn't leave a balance.

I thought about this after exploring some of the water in Shadow of the Colossus. It's done in a way that gives the impression it's endless, with deep water noises and blackness. This fascinates me, so I explore it more often and wonder how deep it is.

I started looking at the edges of the rock/ground, how they submerge into the water, looking at them as they descend to see how deep it is. I noticed that with a couple of bodies of water, the edges stop descending diagonally at some point, so that is probably the bottom. Now that I know this, I can't think about them as playfully as I did.

On the other hand, without any knowledge what-so-ever, it's not possible to question either, is it? And sometimes, a new piece of knowledge is riddled with all its own puzzles that open so many more doors.

[Swan]

I can remember one art class in particular where the teacher was practically tearing her hair out, because she had an otherwise talented student who scoffed at the idea of learning any art history at all. "I don't need it! MY style is absolutely original!" To which the teacher, grinding her teeth, responded, "But how will you know that? If you have no idea what your influences are -- and unless you've grown up in a sterile 10x10 room with no entertainment your whole life you DO have influences -- how will you change them? Defy them? Make them your own?"

In point of fact, this girl's "style" was a combination of manga and Art Nouveau (mostly Mucha) and there was nothing original about it at all -- but she did not understand or seemingly want to understand that. Her ignorance certainly did not make her more imaginative or inspired than her fellows -- it handicapped her in the worst way.

And don't even get me started on the number of beginning art students who have tried to argue to me that they didn't NEED to know anatomy because their "style" calls for a particular kind of distortion -- even though it was clearly evident from their work that they would have benefited greatly from the knowledge of what the rules of anatomy were before they made their caricatures.

The more I know, the more I know I need to learn. The more I know, the more vistas open up to me, the more I see that beyond that horizon is another, more tantalizing distance beckoning. What I know now is that I will never know enough, and where in my youth that was frustration, now it the most exciting kind of wonder.

[Jason Rainville]

I think what you're arguing max is that things are less mysterious and magical when you know more about them.

Which I agree with. Christmas wasn't the same after santa clause left, and life doesn't feel mysterious or magical now that I don't believe in god.

that's not quite the same as saying that because we know more, we cannot create more. Having more knowledge helps creativity rather than hinders it. If you know very little and it all feels so magical, you won't knwo the REASON why it feels magical in the first place, and will never be able to reproduce that feeling in your art.

To be more literal, the more things I know about history and culture, the more I can mesh certain cultures, the more I can identify what cultural style is most befitting of a certian region etc. The more I know about muscles, the better I can create my own for some odd creatures. The more I know about landscapes the better I can create unique rock formation out of my ass.

[Elwell]

Max, watch this:
Sk8TVopOBGE

[Ryuartyi]

I agree with most of the people here. When I didn't study the human figure, all my figures looked flat and bland (They still kind of do, but it's being worked on), but now they're starting to look a lot better.

I know if I don't study landscapes, I can't create epic ones that I envision. If I don't study color theory, everything doesn't look right, and the art piece falls apart.

Knowledge is the base of all art, and should be used to your advantage. Sure some of the things I wanted to do in my comic has changed because of science knowledge like physics and chemistry, but my comic has never felt more real which allows me to really feel what I'm drawing and writing.

If you don't try to learn everything you can, it'll just hinder your progress as an artist.

[Elwell]

If you don't try to learn everything you can, it'll just hinder your progress as a human being.
Fixed.

[Jason Rainville]

Thanks for that Elwell, Horizon is the shit :D

[kool-ka-lang]

You guys should watch all 5 parts. It's epic. I wish I had a relative like that.

[enrigo]

I think knowledge could hinders creativity, kind of when you know how something works and you lose the initial crazy idea you imagined about it.

But then dismissing knowledge totally is pretty stupid, literally.

[kev ferrara]

I adore Feynman. I just wanted to say that.

Two of my favorite stories (yes I'm assisting in the hijack)

How Feynman was hired for The Manhattan Project...

How Feynman discovered the cause of The Challenger Explosion.

I figured a tease would be a shorter and more effective way to get people to read more about Feynman...

(Warning: The knowledge that I have attempted to manipulate you may have adversely affected your imagined version of me.)

[Elwell]

I really, really miss Feynman.
And Jim Henson.

[HunterKiller_]

Max, watch this:

Such a nice guy. His father must've been a clever man.

[Farvus]

I understood quite differently what Max wrote in his first post. It's also something that was mentioned in Nick Pugh DVD about originality. The more you know and are passionate about subject connected with what you designs, there is less likeness that you will break into new territory and invent something new. Mostly beacause you're so immersed in what there is and you're so part of what has everybody done.

[Jasonwclark]

The more you know about something, the less you can play with it, and the experience of that moment and activity in combination with the object you're playing with diminishes. You know the feeling, surely? Maybe when you first found this site, there was a feeling. Or when you started playing a game of some sort?

In case you're wondering why so many people pounced on you, its because of the way you set up the discussion. The thread title is too forceful, and that first line "the more you know, the less there is to question," was bound to ellicit a hostile reaction.

The sentiment that you're trying to express is easy to write off, but you're also not the first person to venture into unstable epistemological terrain. You might check out Heidegger's "Question Concerning Technology", or "Totality and Infinity" by Emmanual Levinas. They explore the issue from different directions; the former with a heavy focus on ontology, the latter from an ethical perspective. Both offer broad ranging critiques of Aristotle, who is still the father of the sciences, even if most scientists don't bother reading him anymore. At issue in Heidegger, is not so much the knowledge drive per se, but rather a certain attitude towards the world or Being, which can develop as a result of it. Levinas goes further and discusses the knowledge drive as an act of violence. Feynman highlights the same issue, in his own way, when he discusses the difference between “knowing the name of a bird” and actually “knowing the bird.”

Just remember, anytime you start to get too comfortable with something, when you think you really 'know' it, that's when you're probably running yourself into trouble.

[Giorge]

Something I've noticed is that knowledge destroys imagination. .... when you first found this site, there was a feeling. Or when you started playing a game of some sort?

Not really , i find that being well informed can help you allot, general knollage has nothing to do with imagination , in fact imagination is fed by the amount of information you gather , just look at the pre-renaissance painters , that tried to paint creepy/fowl and horrific beings , but all they got is some funny very human like with wings like sticks and ppaper and they looked like krap. Then folowed the renaissance with all the study and ... you get it :)

[Leysan]

Non-physicists know and like Feynman ... people, I have new respect for you.
Feynman was truly awesome.


What Swan wrote.
The more I know, the more I know I need to learn. The more I know, the more vistas open up to me, the more I see that beyond that horizon is another, more tantalizing distance beckoning. What I know now is that I will never know enough, and where in my youth that was frustration, now it the most exciting kind of wonder.

The more knowledge you have, the more bricks you have with which you can play.

[Max Challie]

Jasonwclark - I felt at the time of writing the title that it was pretty abrasive. I've found over time that when you think you know something, the opposite smacks you in the face. I've found it on forums, in ideas and philosophy, etc.

It seems that modesty and being sucked into the subject rather than thinking about how well you're doing brings the most success. When I step back and wonder how good I am or how a piece of my work is, it falls apart.

A few months ago, I was taught not to try to fix a problem in a painting, and only to criticize it when it is finished, because I would fiddle with it otherwise.

[kool-ka-lang]

I think, that if you now know more about a subject, you can then turn that into a different kind of imagination.....or what I'd like to call messing with kids. >:D

Say when you were little, you thought there was a ghost in your house. Now, you know it's just a cold draft going under the door making those sounds. If you're baby-sitting or have a little bro or sis, you can use the knowledge of it being a draft to freak them out more. You could say "you'll know it's a ghost, when you get a cold rush of air around the room, letting you know that they're here.". you know, something like that.

[enrigo]

I'm wondering how the tribal/ancient people thought up some really imaginative creation stories and myths, it seems almost impossible for modern people to thought up something close to that.

It seems to be related to this idea, are they imaginative because of the lack of knowledge?

[kev ferrara]

When you know more about a subject, say science. You know a lot more about what is *not* known about that subject, which tells you what you should research. That's very important.

In art, you are exploring the world through your own personality. The more you know yourself, the less you know the world, and vice versa. Its a never ending battle.

[Max Challie]

I'm wondering how the tribal/ancient people thought up some really imaginative creation stories and myths, it seems almost impossible for modern people to thought up something close to that.

It seems to be related to this idea, are they imaginative because of the lack of knowledge?

Science's effect on society. In this case, I'm thinking my original post was accurate. But, please prove me wrong.

I think there is a social taboo towards the sixth sense these days. This sense being intuition. Kind of like how people will pick on you for your failures or mistakes (although that's a part of nature). Maybe a lot of people are scared of this sense, for it being the unknown? Sight seems to be relied on a lot.

Of course this kind of thing becomes a bandwagon like everything else, but a lot of people are lost, and need bandwagons until they are ready to think for themselves. I don't think people who think for themselves are better than those who don't, I think they're just different.

[kool-ka-lang]

actually if you think about it, those stories and myths used to be one of the few things they could use their imagination on. Compare that with modern times, where we have significantly more outlets for us to unleash our imagination on, on a more spread out basis. (ie videogames, books, movies, animation, drawing, comics, etc.)

We have some amazing stories about everything from the beginning of the world, to the end of the world, everything inbetween, and beyond.

You just gotta read more. and watch and play more. and listen.


another point -
What I was trying to get at with my previous post, was that what is so simple and mundane to you, might be fascinating or scary for others. Any one of the pros here at conceptart can make an amazing painting, and the little kid who had little interest in art might suddenly be inspired to take up drawing, just because it's so mysterious to him how someone could draw like that.

err...This might be the first time I've actually tried to post coherent paragraphs to support an idea, and so I dunno if it gets the message through.

[Flake]

I don't think people who think for themselves are better than those who don't

Read that back and think about it.

[Elwell]

Max, have you watched the Feynman video yet?

[Ilaekae]

"Of course this kind of thing becomes a bandwagon like everything else, but a lot of people are lost, and need bandwagons until they are ready to think for themselves. I don't think people who think for themselves are better than those who don't, I think they're just different."

I think Flake beat me to it.

Thinking/thought is a process that is self-generated. Those who allow others to think for them are NOT thinking...

I'm not sure what it is they ARE doing, but it's NOT thinking. This is something that modern philosophers like Limbaugh and Coulter understand very well...[sarcasm alert]...

[Renegade89]

When you know more about a subject, say science. You know a lot more about what is *not* known about that subject, which tells you what you should research. That's very important.

This is exactly what my chemistry proffesor told us last trimester, and he is a recognized scientist, that everytime he studies, no matter how hard, the only thing he really learns is how ridiculously little does he know compared to was there to be discovered. Isaac Newton wrote a great phrase about it, something like how he felt like a little kid on the sea shore looking at small rocks while facing an infinite sea of knowledge yet to be sailed.

"I'm wondering how the tribal/ancient people thought up some really imaginative creation stories and myths, it seems almost impossible for modern people to thought up something close to that.

It seems to be related to this idea, are they imaginative because of the lack of knowledge?"

In a way yes, a lot of myths were created to explain phenomenons and things in nature that those people couldnt understand yet, they satisfied their curiosity and the fear of the unknown with simplistic stories,that provided easy to understand answers to their questions, that rain is some goddess tears, the stars are spirits from the dead and so on.

Greek mithology expanded on the fact that ancient greeks didnt have soap operas so they got bored and gossip the stories about the gods, who werent flawless, and dealt with affairs similar to the normal people, just adding the mistical element. When people get bored they take things that surrounds them and start making up new things with their imagination, they tell other people about it and so the myths are born.
I spent my entire infancy scared of the whistler coming with a machete or the sayona taking my soul, a bunch of folkloric myths that were born during colonial times when country people didnt have much to get a laugh off but to scare little kids to death. And all the characters relate to the socio economical period the stories were made, and there are tons of different versions due to the fact of the oral tradition were everyone adds their own piece to the tale, becoming even more imaginative.

[Favila]

Someone told Max Planck when he was a student he shouldn't go into physics because almost everything was discovered in that field. But then he came up with the quantum theory.

(Carl Sagan?) said that our knowledge is like the surface area of a balloon. The space outside the balloon the represents the stuff we don't know (the unknown). So as the balloon gets bigger, it gets in contact with a bigger part of the unkown.

Robert B. Hale said that if we know the norm, we can more easily see the deviation. So my thought about all this stuff is that imagination gets destroyed when all you strive for is to stick to the norm.

[J Wilson]

And don't even get me started on the number of beginning art students who have tried to argue to me that they didn't NEED to know anatomy because their "style" calls for a particular kind of distortion -- even though it was clearly evident from their work that they would have benefited greatly from the knowledge of what the rules of anatomy were before they made their caricatures.

Soooo true. How is it that so many young artist's confuse lack of knowledge with "style"? Yes, your art is distinct to you (your "style") because it reflects your particular artistic shortcomings. I think they fear that the more they learn, the less their artwork looks like what they are used to producing, and the less "theirs" it makes it. I knew a young artist who only drew half faces, because he had problems with symmetry. When I prodded him to practice the whole faces, he said that it was his "style" to do half faces. Sigh.

Back to the original poster's topic though, I think there is a point in your art education where you feel that the more you know the less creative you are, because you are trying very hard to juggle a lot of rules and knowledge. At that point it's important to take a step back, and go back to your intuition on what feels right to you, what excites you, which has now been tempered and matured with knowledge. Knowledge can only enhance artwork, once it's had time to become part of you.

[Arshes Nei]

OK, here's a question for you. How would you draw Bahumut?

[Renegade89]

OK, here's a question for you. How would you draw Bahumut?

Bahamuth? Like a really badass biblic hipopotamus XD

[Micaiah Nelson]

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” Albert Einstein.
I give you vegetables.
http://www.physiol.ox.ac.uk/~ket/THESWEBII.pdf

[Rabid]

OK, here's a question for you. How would you draw Bahumut?

Definetly wouldn't start by drawing it like every other highschool FF lover....
P.S. Thanks for vegetables...

[_Mario]

Bahumut

Here: :ab::aa::ah::au::am::au::at:

As you didn't specify anything at all (besides the letter) I thought using the wobbly CA letters is a good enough pick out (of roughly unlimited different variations).

How do you draw a human/bicycle/car/sky/book? Isn't this type of question a bit too generic?

[Arshes Nei]

lol, well I meant "Bahamut" - I misspelled it.

But if most people went by "knowledge" they'd MOST associate it with this:

http://bahamutoriginel.free.fr/Bahamutzone/Bahamut%20(36).jpg

However, if you actually *know* the origins of Bahamut, you'd realize it's wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahamut

Now....if they knew what the origin of the creature was, it doesn't seem like they were in any way hindered by their imagination to completely make it a different creature.

[Renegade89]

I never knew it from ff games, in spanish is behemoth/bahamuth . That silly dragon has nothing on the badass biblic hippopotamus who fights a badass biblic crocodile ;)
302211

Mythology is a great source of inspiration, more when you read more about the civilization and the time it came, you realize how everything relates to the real world, and it stops being so imaginative and weird, it starts making sense.

http://bestiary.ca/ How about the bestiary?, all weird creatures that looked that came out of a pipe dream, but all the descriptions end up being religious or political methapores and "ooh, now i get it. the weasels totally screw through the mouth and birth though the ear because of that, duh!"

[Vhan Juju]

knowledge- the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association (2): acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique b (1): the fact or condition of being aware of something (2): the range of one's information or understanding <answered to the best of my knowledge> c: the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning

imagination-: the act or power of forming a mental image of something not present to the senses or never before wholly perceived in reality.

[Favila]

Imagination is based on knowledge. You can't imagine something if it's not by association of things you actually know

[Eric Lofgren]

I think can understand what the OP was trying to say. I recall feeling the same way at one point when I was younger. But it didn't take me long to come to realize that the more I know, the more I actually don't know.

If that doesn't spark the imagination I don't know what would :)

[egerie]

"Foist of all..." :D

I guess you have to be inherently curious. Or else, whaT's the point of doign anything, even to live?

[Max Challie]

Elwell - Yes, I've watched it. Thank you!

"Indeed the great Leonardo remained like a child for the whole of his life more than one way; it is said that all great men retain some infantile part. Even as an adult he continued to play, and this was another reason why he often appeared uncanny and incomprehensible to his contemporaries." - Sigmund Freud, 1910


I believe that failure is not the monster so many people make it out to be - I see it as an important part of learning. If one does not fail, one becomes too vulnerable to failure, and it crushes them upon arrival. I favour balance and too much of anything can cause problems. I have found that while having my work torn apart by criticism is emotionally strengthening, receiving accurate, relevant praise from an industry professional for the quality of the work feels great.

I'm happy with both failure and success, as long as I learn from my experience. That creates knowledge and as others have said, opens doors to new learning experiences. Indeed the more I know, the more I have to play with, but it can break the magic in some cases.

[nonie]

One thing learning does is make you realize how silly/stupid you've been in the past. Some peoples' fragile egos can't handle it. Most often the part where you see how dumb something you did or thought was comes much earlier than the understanding of how to do it better.

You say "Wow, it's so stupid to think that I used the believe a fat man would come down my chimney on Christmas to bring me presents" and then because you don't like the feeling of having to doubt something you thought was true, and it makes you wonder what else you believe is a silly or an outright lie, you wish to have that child state back. It's nice to not have to question yourself, but it's not the lack of knowledge that gives you that - it's just that you hadn't developed a sense of self in the first place so you couldn't doubt it yet.

This same moment of realization comes in art, when what you're drawing just doesn't look right and you can't do better without admitting that you're doing badly. Those art students who say "it's my style," stop at this point because it scares the fuck out of them - they give up art altogether because they lack the will to work and learn, or they hide behind the style argument hoping that others won't notice their shortcomings. They actively work to avoid learning because they don't want to be confronted with the limit of their knowledge again. They look backwards instead of forwards because they can't let go of their failures. They don't want to question what they know and thereby question themselves.

You're not going to reach any sort of true connection between yourself and your art if you don't get past this point, just as you're probably not going to be a great novelist if you refuse to learn the alphabet past the letter E because those additional letters can just be put together in additional ways and it's too big for your head to handle.

When you reach the acceptance that the universe is totally unknowable, that you and everyone else in the world will forever be in a state of constant discovery, and that every one thing you learn opens up a thousand new paths for your imagination, that's when the magic comes back.

[Crane]

You have to know the rules to break them

[s.ketch]

Some of you people are confusing imagination with guessing. Look at the things around you, the thing you're typing on, the car you ride in on the way to work, educated people do indeed have great imagination. We have an entire civilization based on the imagination of people with knowledge. All knowledge does to imagination is give it rules to bend and break.

[JJ McKool]

I understood quite differently what Max wrote in his first post. It's also something that was mentioned in Nick Pugh DVD about originality. The more you know and are passionate about subject connected with what you designs, there is less likeness that you will break into new territory and invent something new. Mostly beacause you're so immersed in what there is and you're so part of what has everybody done.

Ha, that's exactly where my mind went too. There's definitely an extent where knowledge can hinder oneself. I think the reason might have something to do with different types of intelligence; creative/practical, and absorptive. Learning in and of itself, isn't really that much use to anyone other than the person, but it provides potential. The more you learn, the more potential you have. Science in itself isn't necessarily noble, but curing illness is; religion in itself isn't necessarily noble, but charity is; learning in itself isn't noble, but what you do with it sure can be. The building blocks analogy is good. You can't really ever "create" anything, but you can sure build something cool if you have more stuff. Of course, that can't exactly be tested, but common or contemporary sense seems to say it's at least mostly true.

[solitude]

Random essay on the topic of fantasy novels that is still kind of relevant to this conversation:

http://www.sffworld.com/authors/b/bakker_scott/articles/whyfantasyandwhynow.html

[Carl Dobsky]

"When you reach the acceptance that the universe is totally unknowable, that you and everyone else in the world will forever be in a state of constant discovery, and that every one thing you learn opens up a thousand new paths for your imagination, that's when the magic comes back."

-Nonie

Nonie, you are awesome.

[Dusty]

"Please read to the latest comment before posting."

Sorry, but this is an amusing comment with the pr0n spam that is currently the last reply that will no doubt be deleted by the time anyone else reads this...

;)

-D

[Maidith]

I agree with those who say your idea is rubbish.

While it's true that I find out more and more things as I improve my drawing and painting skills, there are many more things I barely begin to grasp. In other words: The more I know and discover, the more I feel that there are whole new universes I don't know anything about.

[DavePalumbo]

Sorry, but this is an amusing comment with the pr0n spam that is currently the last reply that will no doubt be deleted by the time anyone else reads this...

what's really amusing is that they resurrected a thread from 6 months ago to post it. :shrug:

[Black Spot]

It’s one way of finding interesting topics that I don’t have time to look back to because I’m imagining and actually drawing stuff in between surfing here.

[MiniGoth]

'When I began the martial arts, a punch was just a punch, a kick, just a kick.

When I learned the martial arts, a punch was more than just a punch, a kick, more than just a kick.

When I mastered martial arts, a punch was just a punch, a kick, just a kick.'

Bruce Lee

It feels like imagination gets pushed aside a bit while you're learning, because you study from life.

Once you know how things work, the imagination comes crashing back, because you can apply all this new stuff.