"An Anime Artist's Retort to the Anti-Anime Artist"(NSFW)

[FlipMcgee]

I haven't been following the burning anime threads here (too busy drawing) so pardon me if this opinion piece was already mentioned here before. Pic unrelated to article but included for educational purposes.


http://news.deviantart.com/article/35005/ (actual article begins where it says "Issue Eight" in bold text)


So why do Anti-Anime Artists act the way they do towards us Anime Artists?

Reason Four: ... Anti-Anime Artists are jealous of Anime Artists.

Reason #5: Fear of the unknown + Not the status quo = Anti-Anime Artists

[Seedling]

Could you please add "NSFW" to the title? Thanks.

[Elwell]

Could you please add "NSFW" to the title? Thanks.
Done.

[Costau D]

Wow.........

[rapxic]

i'm really confused is there anything called anti anime artist , i think if work is done really good , people will admire it .but if it looks cheap , don't expect anyone to put a high price on it., i think the person who wrote this was just over reacting. he should try harder to get a beter reponse.this article should just be ignored.

[Zilant]

Ah god,
My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

[JonZ_]

Funny how she (or he) end with a promotional of upcoming crappy dvd.

Jeaolous? I think it reciprocal...

[Elwell]

I've posted this before, but it seems appropriate:

251480

[mambo]

I've posted this before, but it seems appropriate:

251480

Classic. That's almost tattoo worthy! :D

[SpaceRogue]

DA = dramalama


I especially love how the 'u r just jelous' in art keeps returning.

(fear of the unknown ,wth XD )

[Farvus]

I think it's actually the opposite with "Fear of the unknown". Especially when cheap manga artist enters CA forum :).

[kev ferrara]

The fact is, Manga was an Axis creation during World War II. Hitler and Goering were looking for a way to spread the Nazi message in a more populist form and both being great fans of Disney (believe it or not) they engaged their culture ministry to obtain some cartoon artists in germany to create a popular style to use in propaganda posters. The German artists failed to live up to Hitler's wishes (Hitler having been an artist himself) so Hitler essentially outsourced the creation of these propaganda cartoons to Japan. Hirohito was glad to oblige, formed a huge studio of Japans best cartoonists, and this is why Manga came out of Japan.

Quite a bit of early Manga had hidden swastikas in the hair of the characters as secret code demonstrating its origin. Of course very few nowadays know the origins of Manga, so many draw the hair without the swastikas.

One of the reasons so few know about the origins of manga is because the main studio producing the propaganda was destroyed in the first atomic bomb blast. (It was right near the Nissan steel plant, which produced war material and had not yet started making cars, which I think first happened in the late 1950s or early 60s)

Anyhow, before anybody defends Manga too strongly, you should know its origins in Nazi propaganda. Its design was strictly for the purposes of fooling the unwitting. Unfortunately, it has found some degree of success lately, which I think demonstrates the resurgence of a certain ideology in the world.

[Seedling]

I see you are a proponent of recycling, Kev.

[kev ferrara]

The truth must be set free!!

[mambo]

The fact is, Manga was an Axis creation during World War II. Hitler and Goering were looking for a way to spread the Nazi message in a more populist form and both being great fans of Disney (believe it or not) they engaged their culture ministry to obtain some cartoon artists in germany to create a popular style to use in propaganda posters. The German artists failed to live up to Hitler's wishes (Hitler having been an artist himself) so Hitler essentially outsourced the creation of these propaganda cartoons to Japan. Hirohito was glad to oblige, formed a huge studio of Japans best cartoonists, and this is why Manga came out of Japan.

Quite a bit of early Manga had hidden swastikas in the hair of the characters as secret code demonstrating its origin. Of course very few nowadays know the origins of Manga, so many draw the hair without the swastikas.

One of the reasons so few know about the origins of manga is because the main studio producing the propaganda was destroyed in the first atomic bomb blast. (It was right near the Nissan steel plant, which produced war material and had not yet started making cars, which I think first happened in the late 1950s or early 60s)

Anyhow, before anybody defends Manga too strongly, you should know its origins in Nazi propaganda. Its design was strictly for the purposes of fooling the unwitting. Unfortunately, it has found some degree of success lately, which I think demonstrates the resurgence of a certain ideology in the world.


Hmmm.... I don't know that it makes sense to hold any link to Nazi propaganda against modern day incarnations of manga. Japanese culture has always been willing to mix words with pictures to form a graphical narrative. Modern manga has really nothing to do with the Nazi ideology despite it's roots as a propaganda tool. The Mitsubishi corporation was part of the Japanese war machine - producing fighter planes for Japan (the famous Japanese 'zero' fighter)... but Mitsubishi of today certainly has no links to a Nazi ideology. Why would manga be any different?

It sounds as if you're trying to draw some sort of link between manga fans being unwitting Nazis. lol.

:[

[kev ferrara]

mambo, you're missing the point. Manga is still effective as a tool for corrupting minds, just as it was intended. It is not devoid of all nazi content.

Just think about how racially similar all the charcters are, same eyes, same nose, same hair, etc... Its amazingly generic, just like the eugenics projects of the Nazis.

That's the problem with it. The message lives on in the style.

[Elwell]

Kev, I'm sure these folks (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Manga) would be interested in your information.

[mambo]

mambo, you're missing the point. Manga is still effective as a tool for corrupting minds, just as it was intended. It is not devoid of all nazi content.

Just think about how racially similar all the charcters are, same eyes, same nose, same hair, etc... Its amazingly generic, just like the eugenics projects of the Nazis.

That's the problem with it. The message lives on in the style.

I must have missed that point... because it's absolutely absurd.

To attempt to draw some sort of connection between manga and eugenics based on stylistic interpretations of the human form is just plain silly. There isn't anymore a Nazi/Eugenics message in Manga than there is in the classic Warner Bros. cartoons or any other form of visual narrative.

It's certainly not shocking that there is a completely homogeneous style with Manga... it comes from Japan after all. Arguably one of the most homogeneous cultures on earth.

I'm sure I'll be sorry for asking... (lol) but:

1) Who exactly is behind this dastardly plan to corrupt the minds of youth?

2) Why would they be corrupting them and to what end?

3) How can I get in on it? Put me down for the corruption of 16 year old cheerleaders with 36DD breasts. :teeth:

4) Do they have a secret manga-nazi handshake?

It all sounds so ridiculous. Please tell me you're not going to make Astro Boy out to be a nazi.

[kev ferrara]

If you don't understand that the creation of a generic set of facial characteristics is directly tied to the Nazi ideology of racial purity, then I really can't help you.

Maybe you look like a Manga character already, so it doesn't bother you. But where does that leave everybody else?

And if you think Manga is only about surface level sci-fi fun, maybe you should look at it at a deeper level. Understand, the leading Nazi were all "losers" too, who wanted power as revenge against the more successful members of society. Think about how many losers are into Manga. There's a reason they're attracted to it.

This is classic under-the-radar propaganda. Those who are already indoctrinated will not be able to see it.

[mambo]

If you don't understand that the creation of a generic set of facial characteristics is directly tied to the Nazi ideology of racial purity, then I really can't help you.

Maybe you look like a Manga character already, so it doesn't bother you. But where does that leave everybody else?

And if you think Manga is only about surface level sci-fi fun, maybe you should look at it at a deeper level. Understand, the leading Nazi were all "losers" too, who wanted power as revenge against the more successful members of society. Think about how many losers are into Manga. There's a reason they're attracted to it.

This is classic under-the-radar propaganda. Those who are already indoctrinated will not be able to see it.

errm... you still haven't shown how these nazis that apparently run the manga world from behind the scenes manage to control and orchestrate the thousands of manga artists out there. Mind control? Have they saved Hitlers brain and are using it to transmit signals to manga artists and readers everywhere?!?!

Surely a free market economy would be the dictating factor (lol - no pun intended) in the manga production of today... not some secret Nazi society out to corrupt the youth of today.

Seriously all this talk of under the radar propaganda... by who? To what end? What is their master plan? If their master plan is to get 16 year old males and 30 year paedophiles to rabidly jerk off to tentacle rape comics... then maybe you're right. Damn... they do have Hitlers brain!!! lol.

Since when were Nazis about tentacle rape of doe-eyed cartoon females?!!

I'd be curious how much you actually follow manga since your reference point was sci-fi fun. A very large portion of manga has nothing to do with sci-fi at all.

For what it's worth I'm not really even a manga fan... I just find that your post is completely and utterly silly. It's got about a much relevance to manga as chalk does to cheese. It's just one massive non sequiter.

mambo

[kev ferrara]

Propaganda is not "active measures". It is by nature "under the radar". If people know its propaganda, it doesn't work.

The people behind the manga phenomenon are the corporate hegemony, which is borderless and worldwide. If you study such things as how the Nazi empire was financed, you come across such companies as IG Farben and Thiessen Krupp. And when you see how they are tied in with the global economy you can see their influence.

And of course a dumbed-down consumer is always good for business. And if people seek to be homogeneous, much less variety of product needs to be produced, which of course saves factory expenses... You don't need to change the mold, just keep stamping out the same stuff. The same toys, the same television shows, the whole thing is about speedy broadcast of this "be generic" ideology. And the international banking cartels and their subsidiary corporations easily retain power, if all everybody seeks to do is conform.

The whole thing gets very complicated. But conformism to a fantasy racial purity that also happens to be childlike (indoctrinating the people into infantilism and helplessness) is very much the whole idea.

Don't keep the people down... have the people keep themselves down. Simple.

[Anid Maro]

ZOMG the Nazis have a secret agenda to corrupt the minds of our youth with Anime!!1!

*Respond in seriousness*

I'd like to inform you good sirs and ladies that perhaps a thread which:

1. Features a Japanese man screwing an Anime pillow.
2. Links to a poorly written article from the drama-queens at DA which happens to exhibit one of the lamest strawman arguments I've seen in quite a while.
3. Was blatantly Godwined (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/) on post #12.

... is in all likelihood, not deserving of serious discussion in any way shape or form.

Now without further adieu, feel free to continue with this ludicrous thread for my amusement.

*popcorn*

[Lotet]

i havnt red the article or any post yet so pardon me if im saying anything stupid, i will come back and post again when ive red the artcle


but i got really angry by the term "anti-anime artist" thats just...stupid, its like the guy reffer to anime as the real art and "the rest" is just people who DONT draw anime"

[kev ferrara]

Godwin was a part of a CIA psy-ops operation on usenet, in case you didn't know. (Sometimnes this info makes it to his wikipedia entry, but is very quickly deleted.)

In fact he was the first person to coin the term "Mangacist" for someone who is against Manga (aka Anti-Manga). Which is a classic counter-counter-propaganda effort.

Being called a Mangacist is the equivalent of being called an Imperial Stooge of Capitalist Oppressors (or something like that). I think calling a spade a spade is fine, as long as its true. To understand the nazi origins of Manga is not to invoke the so-called Godwin's law (see Case's Corollary... certain topics naturally lead to Nazi comparisons and item two in section two, which discusses invoking nazi comparisons when actually speaking about nazis, as in the case of the origins of manga)

[Lotet]

ok, ive red everything now, adn KEV...ur right, ive heard of this too, i understand what ur trying to say, but im not gonna argue agains of for it,


anyhow, i dunno what too say, some people are just chidish, both on the "real" artist and on the manga ppl, and we should not join the war, acording too me, its stupid to argue with those ppl, cause a lot of em are 12 yer old kids who just follow whats popular, and right now, manga IS popular, it will be gone in the wind, mark my words...atleast at the state it is now, the nerds will always be there, but u get my point, i hope xD


anyhow, i wrote a massive article on DA on it, so if u wanna read it, its on the response list on that verry link

[FlipMcgee]

The people behind the manga phenomenon are the corporate hegemony, which is borderless and worldwide. If you study such things as how the Nazi empire was financed, you come across such companies as IG Farben and Thiessen Krupp. And when you see how they are tied in with the global economy you can see their influence.


"This is the Samurai way"


LuNu2a4FGTI

[kev ferrara]

Sorry didn't mean to imply that Japanese culture isn't beautiful with a long tradition of fine appreciation. Just that WWII was an extreme circumstance that caused a slight rift that allowed Manga propaganda to slip through to infect unsuspecting citizens, now world wide.

[Anid Maro]

Being called a Mangacist is the equivalent of being called an Imperial Stooge of Capitalist Oppressors (or something like that). I think calling a spade a spade is fine, as long as its true. To understand the nazi origins of Manga is not to invoke the so-called Godwin's law (see Case's Corollary... certain topics naturally lead to Nazi comparisons and item two in section two, which discusses invoking nazi comparisons when actually speaking about nazis, as in the case of the origins of manga)

Actually, Case's Corollary states that there are certain subjects that will invariably lead to the discussion of Nazism and subsequent Godwining of the thread. Case's Corollary does not, however, exempt any of the related topics from Godwin's Law.

Godwin was a part of a CIA psy-ops operation on usenet, in case you didn't know. (Sometimnes this info makes it to his wikipedia entry, but is very quickly deleted.)

In fact he was the first person to coin the term "Mangacist" for someone who is against Manga (aka Anti-Manga). Which is a classic counter-counter-propaganda effort.

... so would that make what you're engaging in a "Counter-counter-counter-propaganda effort"? :O

"This is the Samurai way"

Heh, funny. And one would do well to remember that one shall not ask of the Taisho's secret personal history.

[kev ferrara]

If you want to promote racial eugenics through nazi-manga propaganda, hey, its a free country.

But you should know that manga art is intrinsically corrupt and anti-humane and promotes your own conformity to a corporate system that seeks to dominate your mind and keep you infantilized. Just keep that idea in the back of your mind as you slavishly copy the elements of manga style instead of developing your own artistic personality and gifts.

[DIMAGYAN]

this is the first time i read about nazi-manga relation.

in any case. kev ferrara ,are you refering also at the pre ww2 strips press and post tezuka comics (gekiga for example).

in my consideration manga(as we know now days) raise(or begun during the us ocupation.and change between the late 50's and the 60's . and get more comercial and a mixture between the middle of the 70's and the 80's.
but was in japan before the war in a progression since hokusai, through some small indictions in the differents periods,europe influences(specially in the press)
in the ww2 was a propaganda influence,until the us restriction.

but i can't see where the nazi "create" manga.

anyway can you put some link, or information to your arguments? i would like to read something about it.

also to be honest, the concepts you put about "loosers" and "succesful" persons is a bit blurry for me. can you explain what are yours (or the ideal) parameters? i think this is important since you make a sentence about "the new type of society" we live and the reasons of nazis and readers of this days. can you elaborate, please?

[Zilant]

Kappa roll. :tihi:
Pun-tastic.

Flip, what's the username you got that video from?
I searched youtube for The Samurai Way and it had the nerve to cough up a real documentary.




Elwell's right, we need a *Whoosh* smilie.

[Costau D]

The fact is, Manga was an Axis creation during World War II. Hitler and Goering were looking for a way to spread the Nazi message in a more populist form and both being great fans of Disney (believe it or not) they engaged their culture ministry to obtain some cartoon artists in germany to create a popular style to use in propaganda posters. The German artists failed to live up to Hitler's wishes (Hitler having been an artist himself) so Hitler essentially outsourced the creation of these propaganda cartoons to Japan. Hirohito was glad to oblige, formed a huge studio of Japans best cartoonists, and this is why Manga came out of Japan.

Quite a bit of early Manga had hidden swastikas in the hair of the characters as secret code demonstrating its origin. Of course very few nowadays know the origins of Manga, so many draw the hair without the swastikas.

One of the reasons so few know about the origins of manga is because the main studio producing the propaganda was destroyed in the first atomic bomb blast. (It was right near the Nissan steel plant, which produced war material and had not yet started making cars, which I think first happened in the late 1950s or early 60s)

Anyhow, before anybody defends Manga too strongly, you should know its origins in Nazi propaganda. Its design was strictly for the purposes of fooling the unwitting. Unfortunately, it has found some degree of success lately, which I think demonstrates the resurgence of a certain ideology in the world.

OH NO!

251900251902

[kev ferrara]

Zilant, I don't know what you mean by "whoosh" but I think the Nazi Manga post above shows how wrong your argument is. You are a dupe of the nazis pure and simple.

[kev ferrara]

are you refering also at the pre ww2 strips press and post tezuka comics (gekiga for example).

in my consideration manga(as we know now days) raise(or begun during the us ocupation.and change between the late 50's and the 60's . and get more comercial and a mixture between the middle of the 70's and the 80's.
but was in japan before the war in a progression since hokusai, through some small indictions in the differents periods,europe influences(specially in the press)
in the ww2 was a propaganda influence,until the us restriction.

but i can't see where the nazi "create" manga.

anyway can you put some link, or information to your arguments? i would like to read something about it.

For one thing, Tezuka is not his real name. There was a real Tezuka who was a medical doctor but he is often conflated with the collective of artists who originally drew Astro Boy, which ...

Y'know what, I'll just post all the links among the usenet spy networks about the topic. I just hope they don't clip it before it posts. If anybody gets the url before it gets removed by the bots please repost it or PM it to each other to check out the info, okay?

here's the url:

[Costau D]

I'm sorry but I have to back up kev on this.

LyZ8QuWmurg

[Micaiah Nelson]

Its a Sauwastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika) not a Swastika. Space chimp obviously that manga was about WWII. The only difference is the side its facing. And Manji the characters name means Sauwastika.

ax93wA0Wc_M

[Elwell]

I'm sorry but I have to back up kev on this.

LyZ8QuWmurg

:oneye: :heart: :skull: :coke: :mittenbop:

[Costau D]

An underground cosplay group.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Japanese_Workers_and_Welfare_Pa rty



251927
251928
251929

[Shmaba]

So...if you draw anime you're a Nazi. :anime:

This is going a bit far from the real topic. This was about people who hate Anime. Not bad guys who supported it.

[Jack the R]

A little counterpoint to all these feaky pictures of otaku and their pillows (which are probably meant as jokes anyway, word to the credulous) -

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/ca/cosplay/yrp.jpg

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/ca/cosplay/200608-08.jpg

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/ca/cosplay/Etna.jpg

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/ca/cosplay/goodRikku.jpg

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/ca/cosplay/ino1.jpg

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/ca/cosplay/Meroko Yui.jpg

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/ca/cosplay/WhiteRose.jpg

Any discussion of anime and manga is incomplete if it doesn't include the fact that it has girls coming out of the woodwork and doing things that are HOT. Not just cosplaying in skimpy anime costumes, but drawing manga and anime. To me, that is a very very good thing! Sure, you could find female artists before anime and manga took off, but anime and manga opened up a floodgate for women. There's no comparison.

Why might that be? The giant puppy dog eyes surely do not hurt. The proportions may not be "realistic" in a pure anatomical sense, but they could be considered "realistic" in the sense that mammals are hardwired to respond to youthful/infantile proportions. If you see the big eyes/forehead, small nose/jaw of a baby/puppy/kitten, and you don't feel the nurturing/protective instinct, there is something wrong with you. Anime and manga are caricutures of youthful proportions - at least, most of the stuff popular now is, although there are also realistic titles and super-masculine titles.

One thing that needs to be considered with anime and manga art, is that it is adapted to the needs of storytelling. As Scott McCloud pointed out in "Understanding Comics," the more iconic a face is, the easier it is to sympathize with. That is why these things : :) :\ :( :xpld: :confident :^^: are so universal. No distinguishing features, everyone can identify with them. Anime and manga take advantage of the same effect, which is why caucasians look at anime and manga and initially see caucasians (once you become familiar with anime and manga though, you will see that they really are asian. The biggest clue is the way the ears curve forward instead of lieing flat against the side of the head). It certainly has nothing to do with eugenics.

Regarding manga, there is also this to be considered (also from Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" -

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/understanding_comics/uc_50.jpg

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/misc/understanding_comics/uc_48.jpg

In comics, you want the faces to be iconic. And the letters too. The more iconic the art and letters are, the nicer they play together.

This is not as true for anime, but still, because of the limitations of hand drawn animation, you want the faces to be as simplified and iconic as possible. You're not going to get a team of cell animators who can animate on schedule and maintain the likeness of a realistic face - and if you could, they would be fiendishly expensive. Also, note that American animation also uses iconic representations of characters. But who's bitching about Samurai Jack or Dexter's Laboratory? Or Bugs Bunny, who looks more like an anime character than any rabbit I ever saw.

Proportions -

http://www.extinctionlevelevent.com/illustration/manga/femaleComparisonChart.jpg

Really guys, I think the Japanese know what they're doing. These characters are in fact based on real anatomical knowledge. Taking into consideration that these are animated cartoons, and that there are ectomorphic Japanese girls, like av idol Rina Sawaguchi, who are damn near this skinny, these characters are not all that unrealistic in proportion. They are not much less realistic than Loomis's 8 head heroic woman.


Learning to Draw Anime/Manga Style First

I'm going to come out in favor of it, if it's what you want to do with your life, and here's why. As you saw on page 50 of Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics," iconic art is halfway to being language. It is going to be very, very difficult to "speak" the anime/manga language convincingly as a 2nd language. Drawing anime/manga well enough to be indistinguishable from the "native speakers" can take years of unlearning and relearning. I got started drawing the anime/manga style as a challenge from a room mate who was into it. I started out as most of the guys on CA.org, seeing it as an inferior style which could be easily conqured. Then I actually tried it, and it was not easy. I came close enough to halfway convince my room mate, but there was a clear difference in my own eyes between what I did and the real thing. Even now, a good ten years later, I'm not sure I could convince a Japanese artist that I can draw "manga" and not "AmeriManga."

In my opinion, it would be better to start off drawing from manga/anime, then real life. You've got to learn the sensibility of manga that can't be taught, only absorbed through constant observation of manga and practice. No, you can't get perfect knowledge of anatomy without going to real life, but yes, you can get a basic knowledge of it by drawing from manga. From there, it's easier to graft on a fine knowledge of anatomy than to start with realistic anatomy, unlearn a realistic drawing style, and learn the style of manga well enough not to look like a fake.

I wouldn't recommend this to someone wanting to work in the U.S. art industry though.

Why They Hate

Simple. It's the same thing as parents hating their kids music. Muscle car guys hating ricers. People with good fashion sense hating "bling" (oops, letting my own bias show). Style is usually a love it or hate it thing. You either get it or you don't. It's also common for style to act like the social glue for a group, and people are usually not friendly to groups which are not their own.

[kev ferrara]

A lot of the original surviving documents passed between Himmler and Hirohito's propaganda staff about the creation of Manga can be found at this usenet archive:

http://groups.google.com/group/operationshinjothule/thread/9cd6262f1/36572b2591944?lnk=raot

The last book I saw on the topic was in special collections at Yale University Library. It was just really a binder, 4 ring, leather bound, falling apart, all written in German. It had some of the working papers of the German cartoonists. cut out and put in plastic sheaths (which was so old it was rock hard and so brown you could barely see the images beneath it) At the end there was some Japanese documents that had been translated into German.

I wish I could be more specific as to the location of more of this material. I lot of the guys on the usenet spy networks had a lot to say on the topic (not all of which I believed, of course)

[Shmaba]

Kev I think you've read a bit too much into what things were and not where they are going.

[kev ferrara]

As Scott McCloud pointed out in "Understanding Comics," the more iconic a face is, the easier it is to sympathize with. That is why these things : are so universal. No distinguishing features, everyone can identify with them.

Exactly the reason they were created! Hello!

Check Fritz Künkel's "Arbeit am Charakter" from 1929 and "Angewandte Charakterkunde" from 1929-1935. The German psychologists invented this idea! Not Scott McCloud!!

[Shmaba]

Exactly the reason they were created! Hello!

Check Fritz Künkel's "Arbeit am Charakter" from 1929 and "Angewandte Charakterkunde" from 1929-1935. The German psychologists invented this idea! Not Scott McCloud!!

And that exactly shows that people who draw anime are not Nazis! Hello!
People draw it for the look not the history.

[Anid Maro]

A lot of the original surviving documents passed between Himmler and Hirohito's propaganda staff about the creation of Manga can be found at this usenet archive:

http://groups.google.com/group/operationshinjothule/thread/9cd6262f1/36572b2591944?lnk=raot


Well, this should be interesting...

Not Found
The requested URL /group/operationshinjothule/thread/9cd6262f1/36572b2591944?lnk=raot was not found on this server.

...totally surprising.

I wish I could be more specific as to the location of more of this material. I lot of the guys on the usenet spy networks had a lot to say on the topic (not all of which I believed, of course)

Must be hard to be more specific when the supreme commander of the counter-counter-propaganda relations organization keeps deleting any and all sources, huh?

Have to hand it to ya', you're quite the dedicated troll. Funny stuff, even if it's way over the top. I give you an "E" for effort.

Edit: By "troll", I mean his attempts to post something ridiculous and string others along. I didn't mean to malign his character or standing in the community. Thought I should clear that up. No offense intended. :)

[kev ferrara]

Anid Maro... its very easy to make fun. But if you don't know your history, you shouldn't snark. I'm sorry the link doesn't work. I'll try to get another one up.

[kev ferrara]

Wait, somebody's at the door....

[Shmaba]

Your logic is silly...

[Anid Maro]

Anid Maro... its very easy to make fun. But if you don't know your history, you shouldn't snark. I'm sorry the link doesn't work. I'll try to get another one up.

I'm quite well aware of history, actually, and nothing you speak of in this thread seems to deserve anything more than a snark.

I'd be more than willing to retract my snarks and pay respect to your views were you able to post any sort of credible source for these views that Anime is some sort of secret mind-altering Nazi propaganda. But as of yet, you've offered baseless tinfoil hat-esque assertions and a broken link.

As such, I will continue to treat this discussion as a plaything for my personal amusement. :)

[invinciblewombat]

Wait, somebody's at the door....

DON'T ANSWER! IT'S A TRAP! \w//m\

[Costau D]

251996

[invinciblewombat]

we were too late, admiral ackbar got him, the world will never know the truth...

[Costau D]

Long Live Admiral Ackbar!!!

[kev ferrara]

Eeeahaghghghggh!!!! Its DOCTOR MANGALA! :anime:

[Favila]

I always heard the Holy Bible was created initially as a script for a Manga, and that would make kev ferrara's arguments false, while proving a lot of stuff your theory can't prove kev.

[Anid Maro]

I always heard the Holy Bible was created initially as a script for a Manga, and that would make kev ferrara's arguments false, while proving a lot of stuff your theory can't prove kev.

Unless God is... a Nazi?

[Costau D]

Long live...GOD!!

[kev ferrara]

Unless God is... a Nazi?

Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.

[Elwell]

252028

[FlipMcgee]

Zilant, just double click the tube.

---------
And for our closing animation this evening..."Walt Disney Presents"

.
xabAjxjYhbU

[Robert.B]

ROFLMAO!!:wtf:

[Silvertone]

.....

[kev ferrara]

On post #61... The question that always occurs to me is, how in the world can an artist at that level of mental illness actually finish a picture?

Does anyone else have this thought?

[bhanu]

Its a Sauwastika not a Swastika

Its a swatik....a word comes from sanskrit. a sacred word for hindus, but hitler and his so called aryan race ruined the word...now the word is asociated with all things evil.... we still have swastika signs in our praying ceremonies...and in our houses...and hitler wasnt an aryan...people in the Indian subcontinent are....the guy fucked up the history.

[Dizon]

On post #61... The question that always occurs to me is, how in the world can an artist at that level of mental illness actually finish a picture?

Does anyone else have this thought?

And, of all the anime/manga characters, why Megaman!?!?!?:wtf:

[JL.Alfaro]

jealousy? ...well, i am jealous of this (http://damaged927.deviantart.com/art/Violet-Redux-63955176)
but after reading that, I think Im going to go join DA and draw some animu for a while...
bye guys.

[Cepro]

Yes, the Sauwstika is used in a lot of manga and anime. You can also find it on maps of Kyouto, near buddhist tempels and on scrolls etc.
It sipmly is a sign for something Buddhist. You see it all over Japan (and other buddhist countries). But it doesn't have anything to do with the nazi Swastika, except it probably has the same Origin: India.
Also note that it usually is mirror-inverted, when compared to the Nazi Version.
Anyway in Buddhism I think it represents Buddha's footprint.

[Jack the R]

Exactly the reason they were created! Hello!

I don't know if you are really this crazy or just goofing around - manga pre-dates Japanese contact with the west, let alone the Nazi's, and simplified iconic art goes back to cave men.

On post #61... The question that always occurs to me is, how in the world can an artist at that level of mental illness actually finish a picture?

I dunno, how does Giger do it? I've talked to a guy who knew Giger, and my impression is, it's all a big joke to Giger which foolish puritanical Americans take seriously.

BTW, the swastika, in addition to being an ancient Buddhist symbol, is also a symbol used by some native American tribes.

[kev ferrara]

Are you really Jack the Ripper? The guy who terrorized Victorian England?

[DIMAGYAN]

Y'know what, I'll just post all the links among the usenet spy networks about the topic. I just hope they don't clip it before it posts. If anybody gets the url before it gets removed by the bots please repost it or PM it to each other to check out the info, okay?

here's the url:

i think i miss the links.... damn bots!.....

[FlipMcgee]

Oh My Schnitzel! Heil Kitteh (http://secretkittyhello.ytmnd.com/) has brainwashed the Bats!

.

[Ilaekae]

Here, Toto...have a sugar cookie while we wait for the nice doctors to come back...

[FlipMcgee]

while we wait for the nice doctors to come back...

is that the cue to bring out the Itchi the Killer :wtf: manga pages?

.

[kool-ka-lang]

pfffffffffttt.......who needs anti-anime when you have the anti-anti-anime artist?

:o

[kev ferrara]

Kool-ka-lang... just to clarify, just about everything I've written on this thread is just pure fun silliness. It was prompted by Flip McGee's first post which linked to an article which proclaimed anti-manga folk (who I later joked were also called Mangacists) were somehow jealous of manga and were failing to appreciate its qualities because it was outside of their cultural frame of reference.

Now, one either engages with these kinds of "arguments" or one simply transcends them with more absurdity. I chose the latter.

I do have personal artistic differences with certain aspects of manga/anime/whateverthehelltheretentiveaficianadoswanttocallit sotheycanfeelsuperior that I would tend to categorize as stylistic eccentricities that are contrary to observable reality, the endless repetition of which has resulted in a tumult of visual clichés cascading into world culture. I have a problem with that tumult of visual falsity.

I do think art reflects character and affects character and since I do prefer idiosyncratic people to homogenized automatons, I would wish that artists would be more personal aesthetically rather than conform to a mass styles. (Not that I don't find hieroglyphs, for instance, wonderful.)

Then again, I have really enjoyed some of the animated movies I have seen in this style.

I do not think people who are into Manga are necessarily losers.

[kool-ka-lang]

DOH>:|

I knew it was to absurd to be true. I guess i need to stop lurking and start posting more. :blahblah: I have a bad sense of sarcasm I guess.:shrug:

I'm keeping parts of it up though. I like the part in bold.

[smugbug]

252028

And with this, I must add that my SO's brother has a cat named, "Hitler". Now, he and my SO are both half-Japanese.

So this either falls into kev's hypothesis or just means my SO's brother is ultra...odd. I vote for odd (cuz, he IS).

Note: I'll not mention the old Chinese designs that I've seen that contain something that looks strangely like a swastika. :oneye:

[FlipMcgee]

.....

[kev ferrara]

How would you handle this situation?

First, I'd erase the head.

[enrigo]

This thread is just awesome, all threads in the Art Discussion forum should be this "educational".
ROLF

I have seen some manga and anime that I highly admire so I wounldn't consider myself anti-anime, but even me can't stand being with the anime fans for a period of time. These people absolutely can't talk about a topic unrelated to anime and turn off that damn J pop music in the background.

It really is ironic that us in here, presumably the so called anti-anime-artist, are having some absurd discussion, while the ones from that deviantart article are being serious in changing our mind.

[donalfall]

Now, one either engages with these kinds of "arguments" or one simply transcends them with more absurdity. I chose the latter.

Can I say to you, Kev Ferrara, that your response was timely, accurate, and very, very funny. I'm just sorry I missed the pre-denoument (sp?) part of the argument. I was about to chip in with a few facts of my own. Ah well. It's been a bad day, and you just made me laugh very hard. Bravo.

[Jack the R]

but even me can't stand being with the anime fans for a period of time. These people absolutely can't talk about a topic unrelated to anime

I can, what do you have in mind?

I think your problem is more with obnoxious kids than with anime. The DA article was genuinely stupid, I grant that, but stupid tends to go with being 12.

[HunterKiller_]

Ugh, if I see another Anime debate I'm gonna smash something.
Hopefully it will be Deviantard.

[mambo]

Note: I'll not mention the old Chinese designs that I've seen that contain something that looks strangely like a swastika. :oneye:

That's only because when the Japanese invaded and occupied Manchuria they were very careful to rewrite their Nazi-manga ideology into Chinese history books (or scrolls as it were). In fact at the time Russia was Japan's biggest rival in the region... however the Japanese were soooo successful at weaving their sinister Nazi-manga ideology into everything that the Russians unwittingly took manga with them back to Russia... in the form of Russian icons that the Japanese had secretly repainted manga style. All of which gave birth to the Russian skinhead movement that manga is so popular with today. The Chinese were some of the first to be severely inundated with Nazi-manga... so much so that even their armies took to wearing Nazi Wermacht uniforms. Below is just but one example that backs up what I'm talking about.

mambo

[kev ferrara]

Those Chinese are actually Danes in disguise.

[FlipMcgee]

...are actually Danes in disguise.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9540/suppliesmh1.gif

[enrigo]

On post #61... The question that always occurs to me is, how in the world can an artist at that level of mental illness actually finish a picture?

Does anyone else have this thought?

Kev, are you expressing something like...perhaps your fear of the unknown ?

:rocker:


๋Jack the R: Most of them are a bit older than me. But what makes me feel tired of them is that, say, if I get some pretty good drawing tutorial in English and share with them, they'll pretty much ignore it and instead ask me to download some sort of tutorial in japanese for them. I got it and it wasn't very good and nobody can understand what is said in the video.

It's like they don't want to involve in anything at all that is non-Japanese, even if it's of great quality, including movies and music and many other things. So that must be why they don't talk about anything other than Manga and Anime at all.

but again, I guess that's just my experience and I wouldn't try to generalize the whole group of people there.

[kev ferrara]

On Post #61...

Kev, are you expressing something like...perhaps your fear of the unknown ?

Are you expressing your love of the familiar? :moon:

[Costau D]

Just to be fair. There is just about as much messed up western underground artwork as there is Japanese.

[Ilaekae]

...and I can post all of it if 250 people vote "Yes, please do it!" :P

[Costau D]

Yes, please do it!

[mambo]

Just to be fair. There is just about as much messed up western underground artwork as there is Japanese.

I suspect you've never been to Japan. :P

[HunterKiller_]

Yes, please do it! (whatever it maybe, I'm assuming it's hentai?)

Dear Old Cat

For the sake of many sanities, I'm asking you to please, if you would be so kind as to auto-spam future Anime debates with hardcore hentai.

Sincerely,
Daniel

[Anid Maro]

...and I can post all of it if 250 people vote "Yes, please do it!" :P

Do it.

*New account - User Name: JimmyP*

Do it.

*New account - User Name: PimmyJ*

Do it.

*New account - User Name: PeeingJ*

Do it.

*New account - User Name: JeeingP*

Do it.

*New account - User Name: SeeingP*

Do it.

...

Ad infinitum...

Do it. :)

[Costau D]

I suspect you've never been to Japan. :P

Japan does not treat it as taboo as bad as people in the west do. Especially in America... I'm really hesitant to say this in fear of changing the subject, but it really has to do with ethics of a culture based on the common belief system of what is bad and what is not. But, I do agree that Japan would probably win. Their underground industry is quite large compared to other places.

[FlipMcgee]

...and I can post all of it if 250 people vote "Yes, please do it!" :P

.....

[Costau D]

i found this to be quite...interesting, and funny.

http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/

As if learning the language wasn't hard enough, Japanese classes in America tend to attract the kind of student who makes you wish that a large comet would strike the earth. There are a few basic type of students that you'll always find yourself running into. These include The Anime Freak, The Know It All, and the Deer Caught In Headlights.

The Anime Freak is probably the most common, and one of the most annoying. You can usually spot a few warning signs to let you identify them before it's too late: they wear the same exact Evangelion shirt every day, they have more than one anime key chain on their person, they wear glasses, they say phrases in Japanese that hey obviously don't understand (such as "Yes! I will never forgive you!"), they refer to you as "-chan", make obscure Japanese culture references during class, and usually fail class. You have to be extremely careful not to let them smell pity or fear on you, because if they do they will immeadiately latch onto you and suck up both your time and patience, leaving only a lifeless husk.Your Classmates Desperate for human companionship, they will invite you to club meetings, anime showings, conventions, and all other sorts of various things you don't care about.



254040 254041


After reading this. I WANT to learn Japanese.

[mambo]

Japan does not treat it as taboo as bad as people in the west do.

I think that perhaps in Japan people don't have much of a choice really. It's a very homogenous society. No one steps out of line for fear of being ostracized... a fate worse than death in Japan. There is something about Japanese culture that causes Japanese people to avoid conflict or misunderstandings at all costs.

Especially in America... I'm really hesitant to say this in fear of changing the subject, but it really has to do with ethics of a culture based on the common belief system of what is bad and what is not.

Agreed. It's handled very differently in America. Mass media tells America one things... the conservative protestant roots of many Americans tell them another. Many end up in some sort of ethic/moral schizophrenia. Uncomfortable in their own skin when it comes to sexuality in any form other than that which is foisted on them by the mass media.


lol... ok enough of dimestore cultural analysis from me. :P

[Brendan N]

Do it!


Do it!


Do it!

[Fuzzeh]

Well...the manga/animu fanatics crazy antics do sorta seem like SHOVE IT DOWN YOUR THROAT nazi enthusiest way. ;o

no, no, manga has nothing to do with nazis. it brainwashes like mad-crazy, though.

I DUN EVEN KNOW WHY THEY CALL THEMSELVES MANGA ARTISTS, SRSLY. A manga is, like, a book. D:<

[sciboy]

Yes, please do it!

[Fuzzeh]

Dooo Eet

[Rabid]

I find a severe lack of inspiration in the manga community that I saw at my college. Nothing fresh ever comes to the art table. If you can draw your friend anime style suddenly your a terribly skilled individual. As far as art goes they tend to set themselves apart in their art from people like me or other artists. This is received differently, but it tends to be they have their own artistic judging system where they only express opinions and crits from other anime artists and not from the outside spectrum.

And if you thought people who draw marvel characters too much and have no inspiration of their own. Just walk down a dorm hallway in Magaville and I garauntee if you peek your head in 10 rooms...at least half will be copy drawing from a manga book or have a paused DVD of their favorite character in a pose for replication....

[Nrx]

. cut out and put in plastic sheaths (which was so old it was rock hard and so brown you could barely see the images beneath it) .

Slipped up a bit there Kev :P only ww2

[subversive-imaginati]

Perhaps someone should tell them, it tends to not be a case of not liking the style but disliking the rabid, brain dead, artistically stagnant, fans/artists who cling to "their" Anime style as if actually drawing more than just six stock faces/poses and exploring art is something that will destroy them as a person by forcing them to actually learn.

Did anyone notice that the writer of the article has stolen anime art in their dA gallery? I bet if it got deleted they'd be all crying about how mean everyone is.

It's not just present in Anime admittedly, it's just that there's way more unskilled and rabid anime artists on places like deviantart so we notice it more. I've seen some similar stuff on par with it from the underground comics movement, there's nothing like dealing with someone who is convinced that their art form alone is the pinnacle of artistic expression and omg nobody who isn't them can possibly understand how important their scat rape robot molestation comic is to the future of western comics.

Personally I trace the whole thing back to the "everything is art" movement. Time was you weren't an artist until you had studied for some years and proved your skill, now any tom, dick or harry can stick a pencil up their nose, drool over a bit of paper and proudly proclaim that they are an artist even if they draw like a retarded paralysed stoat.

[Emerald_Mara85]

Lol.
You guys love making people laugh!!!
If I was drinking something, I'll probably drown or choke or spit it out.

Whenever I tell some newbies at a local forum to not just study manga the usual phase is...'I'm just drawing for fun. Don't be so serious!'
This is the part I go *huh?* at least for the 1st time...
But you posted 'Please give me critiques or comments' in a art section...

And it never ends. (But I'm sure you guys know this part waayyy too well)
I love drawing in manga style.
But these jerks keep coming and give manga a bad name!

[Whyatt Thrash]

This whole discussion brought me onto a whole different topic... It's about time we reclaimed the swastika. The nazis have been preying long enough on one of the most powerful and deeply rooted symbols throughout a plethora of cultures...

Time to take the power back!

http://www.manwoman.net/images/Manny.jpg

Manwoman (http://www.manwoman.net/) FTW! :D

[Renegade89]

I have gotten people pissed at me when i told them that the "how to draw manga" books are only good to wiping your ass after taking a shit, a pretty expensive wipe those books are.

I enjoy good quality japanese comics and animated films, i have always been influenced by japanese illustrators, i hate those costume anime conventions(they become very popular in venezuela from a couple years back) i hate every music genre with a J in front, sushy taste like crap to me too, i really get pissed on this dumb otakus giving a bad name to anyone who just likes manga without being a totally fixated retard. You know the "no knowlege of anatomy cause its my fucking style" jerks
I always have found it though to find people with similar interests. :/

Btw ilakeae: Yes, please do it!