Anatomy Lobotomy Linguini Rabbi

[ConCrete]

This thread will explore basic life drawing technique to give the artist a better understanding of the human form, proportion, line, texture, and shading, and anatomy.

The first assignment was to draw your hands or feet in 30 second sketches 10 times. Mind the 30 second constraint is very important, do not finish a drawing move on.

The second assignment was to draw ten 'as nude as you can legally find' entire human bodies in 30 seconds.

[Linguini]

Comments on first assignment: I was really surprised on how short 30s was, so I went over on the first couple. On #8, I didn't have any time to draw the toes. :( On #9, I focused on the shape of the shadows. I feel like #10 is the worst; when I was cropping it, I flipped it upside down and could see all the problems.

Comments on second assignment: I am kind of dissapointed at myself in these, especially the males. :( I need a looott of work. I think I also need to get used to the time limit, because I'm not used to drawing that fast. It was hard finding some pictures so many sketches have some clothes on them (I tried to imagine how the curve of the body went, though...not sure how I did).
I think a lot of my problems on females are from my shoulder:hip ratios (especially #6); the hips are too small. And I haven't really drawn males, so I guess I'm just not used to all the muscle. :O

[ConCrete]

Critque on Lingiuni's drawings:
Your females are better than your males, your line quality is okay…you should lay down a line with one stroke, and not carve the page to much. A little confidence and that will figure itself out. On the next set try to draw the entire figure. Hands to toes. The proportions of these are vitally important. You will draw them wrong for a long time and suddenly you will be really good at it and surprise yourself (that’s what happened to me). And I am still working on it. I like 11 on the females. You have confident strokes that flow with the curve of the body, in the shoulder. You lay one line and use pressure to weight the line this gives dynamic line which is aesthetic. You start shading in 4 …All of the torsos are thin. And interestingly the more dynamic the pose, the better you capture it, as soon as it is an normal pose you rely on what you already know, not what you see. Try drawing the figure slightly transparent; draw where the arms and head would go behind the chest. This can give you some idea as to where the hands really would land and how they would orient. I think getting a real model would help. Practice would help as well. I want you to repeat this assignment. 30 seconds per drawing, a spread of male and female. Do not get unconfident, you have taken two drawing courses in a day, most people would have gotten sick of this already, I am surprised you are still talking to me and still drawing if you keep this kind of dedication up progress is not far away at all. Remember making this fun is more important than doing it well. I am going to begin posting this in the forum so we can look back at your progress and others can maybe take something from your journey.

The whole image, not each toe or finger, unless you have time.

[Linguini]

Woops...today was busy, sorry. I took more time on these, more than 30s because if I didn't, it wouldn't have been the whole figure. :( But hopefully the results show it...although I can see some glaring faults right now. Bleeegh.

[ConCrete]

These are fantastic. A complete improvement on the previous set, that time limit really freaked you out, huh? 1 is good, the hips are awkward but besides that her chest is well laid out, she was leaning on a table, its good I can tell that just by the way you drew it. Your proportions are all good and your mark looks healthy. The most important point you’ve accomplished is getting proportions close enough to not throw me off. I think we can move to the next level. This is going to take some research, draw your subjects as skeletons. Spend no more than two minutes on each drawing and try to include as many bones as you can. Find an old biology/anatomy book or scour Wikipedia for illustrations of a laid out skeleton. You largest difficulties are going to be the scapula (shoulder blade) the pelvis, the forearm (tibia, fibula) and how they interact when the arm moves. Do not try to get all the details just try to get an idea of angles and how things bend. DO not draw each rib or vertebrae unless it helps you.

[Rabbi Satan]

Thanks for having me concrete, I did 3 pages - 10+ hands and around 6 feet.

I am somewhat ok at doing all of them, except for drawing the palms of the hand. For some reason I'm ok at drawing the outside of the hand, but when it comes to drawing the inside of the hand, I can't seem to do it. I'll just need to keep practicing.

[ConCrete]

The outside of the hand is a very obvious line so its easy to draw. the inside of the palm has subtle lines that are hard to draw. Try varying your pressure to get more and less solid lines. Use the thin lines for the palm and heavy lines for the obvious lines. The hand is usually divided on the palm into three sections, the muscle under the thumb, the muscle under the pinkie, and the pads under the first set of knuckles.

The creases become the lighter lines.

I would like you to repeat this assignment concentrate on proportion and line quality .

A hack job representation of what I mean:

[Rabbi Satan]

Thanks once again for having me :)

I did some more, I kept in mind the 3 muscle groups, did lighter lines for creases, and harder lines for the outside contours.

I did 6, but decided to post these 3.

I've also done these in charcoal, would you like me to do them in pencil instead?

[ConCrete]

Thats an improvement rabbi. You took longer than 30 seconds, but the point is to not worry about details and practice confident strokes, which you are working on. You are ready to move on to the next assignment. Do sketches of a as nearly nude as possible body in 30 seconds. Concentrate on proportion and line quality. Do as much of the body as possible and move on to the next assignment. Take a look at linguini for what to go for. I would prefer you use pencil. Charcoal is a more appealing line naturally so pencil sketches are inherently harder to do.

[Rabbi Satan]

Alrighty, I'll try anyway to do more quick bold lines and outlines for hands (I've been practicing and recently looked at Hogarth's Drawing Dynamic Hands book), and then focus on doing nudes. The big problem with me is that I am always trying to do everything from imagination, and stubbornly refuse to do any from reference. Its a filthy habit, which I'm trying hard to change.

Anyway, I'll post my results soon, have to prepare for me Mandarin lesson tonight :)

Thanks once again Concrete :)





Edit:

These are the hands from imagination done after looking at Hogarth's Dynamic Hands book.

[ConCrete]

Drawing form life is absolutely vital to anatomy and your artwork in general. Drawing from imagination is pretty much a waste of your time. I am going to really stress dropping that habit and drawing even your own hand, the improvements you will see are huge and you are selling yourself way short if you choose not to. Try to not draw the hands in a standardized way, with little balls for knuckles and stuff. You should draw from life and try to manage proportion with your eye, not form your imagination. When you have drawn enough hands to pull up any position from memory you can stop using reference until then use a reference even when you don't think you need one.

[Rabbi Satan]

Hello again ConCrete :)

I started this about a day and a half ago, these were all drawn from life and from observation, none from imagination.

Anyway, I'll start drawing figures under 30 seconds now - does it have to be the whole figure? Or just as much as we can do with good line control in under 30 seconds?

Thanks :)

[ConCrete]

You should be able to draw in a basic proportional layout of the figure in 30 seconds. If you are taking longer you are paying to much attention to detail or just draw slow. Either way for the first part of this assignment fulfill the 30 second requirement as strictly as possible.

[Rabbi Satan]

I've done a few, and I'm quite disappointed in the results and in myself. If Linguini was able to do those drawings in around 30 seconds, then I don't know what I'm going to do T_T. I've really tried to do the entire body in 30 seconds, or as much as I can do so, but the results always end up skewed and ugly.

But anyway, I shall keep trying.

[ConCrete]

I can see you are working through it. It is difficult and the drawings aren;t 'pretty' but you are teaching yourself to take in a shape and put it on a 2D surface. Try drawing lines in one stroke. Your first attempt is your most successful. Try not to think about failure, think about the shape and the proportions. It is hard for some artists to draw something complex simple so fast but once you get it down it shows through out all of your work. In the first drawing of the last page you are unsure and you sketch the line back and forth. Lay down on line, as confidently and accurately as possible. If it is wrong redraw it quickly in its entirety. Try using conte or charcoal on this next set. You ARE learning and you ARE making progress, patience and dedication are going to really pay off, I promise. :D

[Rabbi Satan]

Thank you Sensei *bows*

I'll start the next sets on A2 size newsprint with charcoal now, I'll post the results soon :)

[Linguini]

Hi, sorry, had a really busy day with school and some other stuff. I'm still drawing the skeletons (only have two done) so I'll try to draw more tomorrow and post them here. Thank goodness I'm taking anatomy this year, the book we use really helps.

Hello, RabbiSatan! I hope we learn a lot of stuff together in this thread. And I think you're doing really well. Don't compare yourself to me; all artists are different. I've spent a lot of time comparing myself to the people in my art classes, and it's just left me frustrated. Plus, I've taken a couple of figure drawing classes, so I learned some stuff from there, too. What I did with my drawings was stare at the image for a couple of minutes instead of drawing straight on. It helped me to study the image so my mind knew what it was going to do before my hand did.

Er, ConCrete, would it be better to change the title of the thread now? I feel a little embarassed with only my name in it, since RabbiSatan is your mentee as well.

[Rabbi Satan]

Hello, RabbiSatan! I hope we learn a lot of stuff together in this thread. And I think you're doing really well. Don't compare yourself to me; all artists are different. I've spent a lot of time comparing myself to the people in my art classes, and it's just left me frustrated. Plus, I've taken a couple of figure drawing classes, so I learned some stuff from there, too. What I did with my drawings was stare at the image for a couple of minutes instead of drawing straight on. It helped me to study the image so my mind knew what it was going to do before my hand did.

Heh, thanks for the encouraging words Linguini, I only know the comparison thing all too well, its what got me on my road down depression many many years ago. But thankfully I'm out of it now :)

I'll try your tip of staring at the image for a couple of minutes or more and then memorizing it and drawing it. But I'm not sure if that would be evading the point of the exercise, which is to launch straight into the image. Or maybe its supposed to be a balance between the two. Thanks again though, I'll try to incporate what you said.

[ConCrete]

I would try studying the drawing for as long as you want before drawing. I also move my hand around the page before I make a mark to show my hand where it may go. Kind of a ritual thing, and also a warm up for all the muscles that I use to draw. The skeleton drawings are hard to do. i am not going to lie, I really hated doing them, but you rely on the bones for the muscles and the muscles for movement and action and balance. So they are vital. Book s also help a ton. Rabbi if you feel it would help you get a book. I would suggest, "The natural way to draw" By Nicolaides. It is pretty much the core of every universities life drawing curriculum.

Keep drawing Rabbi, spend more time look at the figure. A strong confident line is not a panicked line, some of your strokes are beginning to look expressive and really rushed, in the heels and hands of people. Take one minute for your next set of drawings. Again stress proportion and line quality. Define the curves and junctures and rely on the model for all of this. It's all there you just have to see it.

I will update the thread title.

Good job you guys. This is a necessary and painful step in a long and fruitful career as an artist. This is where many people fail at art, and you are kicking it in the balls. Keep it up.

[Linguini]

I've finished the assignment, but the pictures are so big from my scanner that I can't attach them directly but have to load them up on Photobucket and attach the images by url. Photobucket takes forever to load them; what can I do to shrink the image to make it load faster? I only have MS Paint and Gimp, and I don't really know how to work those.

I had a lot of fun with the skeletons. I even included a surprise for you, ha ha. When they're finished loading (...still waiting...) I'll post them. :D


EDIT: I discovered how to make them smaller!

#1 of the first set (the two front-facing skeletons) was way more than two minutes, more like five, because I wanted to get down the proportions and draw the shapes of the bones in general. I wasn't sure if the proportions were right, so on #2 of the first set, I focused more on proportions and met the two minute mark.

The second set has my surprise...Pikachu's skeleton! :D I was bored, and a Pikachu figurine is in my still life for art class, so I invented a skeleton for him. :teeth: While drawing #3, I had no room for the legs so I drew just legs in #5 to make up for it. You were right; the scapula and the pelvis were hard for me. Hopefully I can do better next time.

I've also included some bone studies I did in anatomy (some are on my notes to be easier to study from). The ones that are not on my notes took me around five minutes for each bone (we had stations where there were bones on each table) and the ones on my notes took more because I labeled the landmarks as well. Sorry, these are kind of light; after waiting a long time for then to load, I got kind of impatient and didn't adjust the contrast.

This was a great exercise for me because we just finished learning about the skeleton in anatomy. If we're going to do muscles in the near future, that'd be cool because we're starting on the muscular system this week. This is awesome; while having fun drawing, I'm studying for anatomy, and by studying for anatomy, I'm helping my drawings. :D Thanks again for the mentor-age! ((...is that even a word?))

[ConCrete]

Bravo lingiuni. Your study of the bones is fabulous. Learning them by anatomical names and laying them out as such is fantastic. The rib cage seems to be a little small in some of your drawings but that may be your source. The next set of drawings I want you to work from natural poses. Draw the outline of your figure's body around your bone structure. DO not worry abotu muscles yet. Place the bones within a framework. See how the femur does not run down the center of the upper leg but is diagonal within it. Also try to pull from more dynamic poses. Pay attention to the forearm, shoulder, ankle/foot, and torsion of the spine. These are the most complex intersections and subsequently the most difficult to depict. And the pikachu skeleton roxxor, though his skeleton would probably be far more animalistic, which we will be getting to later. I will be working along with you on those drawings.

[Rabbi Satan]

Heya concrete, I noticed I was having the same problem that I had before when I went to a figure drawing class back in July several months ago.

Whenever I try to draw the contours accurately, the proportion of the figures goes way off. I've asked several places around already about how to approach figure drawing, and they all said that trying to draw the contours accurately first meant that your composition and your proportion would be all out of whack when you finally finished the drawing. Since this exercise is all about observation, and NOT about invention/construction/drawing from imagination.

I can draw somewhat ok from observation by making contours that consist of straight lines making simple 2d shapes out of thee figure, and then refine it from there. But when you have a time limit like 30 seconds or a minute, you don't have time to refine the shapes and draw the inner lines. What should I do?

And thanks for the book recommendation, I've already found it on the internet, but I'll order one anyway so I can get my own hard copy. I'm already doing the blind contour drawing exercises as prescribed in the book.





Edit:


Ok, I guess after doing some more, the most crucial element would be mileage, and for me to keep drawing over and over until I keep getting better. So should I just practice at the posemaniacs website until I do?

But I'm looking forward to some feedback :) Please forgive me, since I'm not too good yet.

[ConCrete]

Lingiuni, you should be able to resize those images in the most basic programs. Or you could just scan them in at a lower resolution. Heres a basic rundown of resolution...

72 pixels per inch is the usual pc screen resolution. So scan the drawings in at that, or near it.

300 pixels is when youstart getting into print resolution and that gos all the way up to 600 pixels per inch and higher. When I digitally paint I scan in at like 1000 pixels just so I get tons of pencil details. Anyway.

Rabbi, Your line is very even and heavy. Try going super light and laying down the angles of the limbs and torso and shoulders, your dominant lines. Super light is the point and then lay in lines over the light drawing to define the contours. Vary pressure and lay inlines within the figure to define folds in skin and changes in the surface. Look at linguini's drawings, there are lines to define the edge of the rib cage and the knee cap. These lines are super light but help define the surfaces and how they change across the model. Also try drawing form different sources. Eventually you will be drawing from memory more than anything and switching it up is healthy. And finally keep it up, you are improving and learning. Never apologize for your artwork. You are drawing everyday and really caring about improvement, thats a big deal.

The art is secondary to it's creation.

[Rabbi Satan]

Ok, light lines, angles of limbs and torsos. Does that mean there should be at least some construction lines? I was always under the impression that drawing form observation meant no construction lines and no construction whatsoever, and that you just drew what you saw, starting from one point in the contour and lines, and then drawing until you reached the end.

But anyway, I'll try some construction lines at least, since that's something I seem to be good at :) I'll try to post results today, but might not, since I have yet another Mandarin lesson to go to now (3 times a week for 2 hours each). I'll try to post it tomorrow.

[ConCrete]

To be perfectly honest, whichever way works best for you. In life drawing i draw differently depending on my media, my time limit, my model, the color of my paper, my mood, so many things influence it and someday's I can draw wonderfully others I can't lay down a single line worth it. Stretching to try new things should be important to you and thats what I am here for. If you do not like a time limit or a media or a philosophy of drawing then do it a way that feels comfortable. But keep in mind never to be too comfortable.

[Rabbi Satan]

Here we go, I managed to make 2.5 drawings last night, was quite busy.

Would you still like me to continue with this concrete, or move onto the skeleton assignment?

[ConCrete]

I think you should keep drawing. Find some different models and rock out another page. I can see massive progress just in these drawings and I want you to have the basic form down before you tackle the skeleton. It's a real difficult situation to take on without a foundation. And you are on your way to finding that.

[Rabbi Satan]

Ok, I shall keep on drawing till I get it right :)

Should I still impose a time limit on myself? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 2 minutes? None?

Thanks :)


I've done some more drawings, and I can't see how Linguini is able to do such good drawings (First batch of figure drawings) strictly within 30 seconds. The best I can do within 30 seconds is rough outlines of the figure with good proportions some of the time...am I doing something wrong here?

[ConCrete]

You just have to be patient and draw. Certain things like art are relative in nature so his drawings are not better than yours, he draws differently and appeals to different aesthetics. It just so happens you both are trying to appeal to the same aesthetic, the art community. Do not think of it as better, just different. As far as time limits, I am going to have you do three five minute drawings. You have made progress in your proportions, you are beginning to understand the form. Look at your first drawings compared to the newest ones, they are more proportionate and the line quality seems to have improved. Now take what you have learned and really study it. I only really learn from the long drawings, the half hour and hour long still lifes, these short ones are for proportion and line quality.

[Rabbi Satan]

I just did 3 drawings this morning, two 3 minute drawings, and one 1 minute drawing, and I think I can finally start to see how Linguini was able to do those drawings, he works a lot faster and more accurately than me, hehe. I guess its just practice and mileage now that I have to keep chipping and hammering away at.

Anyhow, I looked at the clock as I was drawing, and it seems that 3 minutes is perhaps too much. 2 minutes is the time it takes for me to finish a good drawing, and 1 for a nice outline. I'll just keep practicing then. Please don't give up hope on me ConCrete :hugsmile:

[ConCrete]

No where near it.

You should not have a 'time' you can draw, you should be able to take the time you have and make the best drawing with that time. Does that make sense?

Anyway take some time to do one or two really long drawings of a model, a self portrait or your hand and get into all the detail. Somehting not form a photo. Maybe a still life.

[Linguini]

I am so sorry I haven't been posting anything. *whacks head on desk* School was horrible at the end of the week, with a bunch of tests, and I started doing some SAT and ACT prep, too. Then I had a piano competition yesterday...and to top it all off, my computer had died on Friday. Sorry that these are all excuses, but I am really trying to do the assignment. I'm just not sure if I can post it (I'm on my dad's computer right now...I don't know if he'll let me hook the scanner to it). Sorry again!!

Oh, and ah...heh......I'm a girl. :girl: :teeth:
Maybe that's why my proportions on drawing girls is better? Heh...woops.

[ConCrete]

You do what you gotta do. Shit happens and keeping the faith through that is important. As long as you ARE drawing somewhere in there, you will be fine.

[Rabbi Satan]

Heya Concrete. My apologies as well for not posting the last 3 days. I've been busy drawing other things, doing other assignments, learning Mandarin, and keeping to doctors' appointments. Please don't think that I've abandoned the course that you're teaching us with :) But I HAVE been drawing, I haven't been idling by doing nothing.

These figures that I drew were from Poser Figure Artist, which I got 2 months ago. It's ok, quite handy, but no substitute for the real thing. I did these in a relaxed state of mind (Which is where I work best, under no tension) and without a timer (But Definitely under 5 minutes for the main one, under 3 for the rest). I'll continue doing more of these if you want me to.

[ConCrete]

Keep at it.

I wish you were drawing form life, but if this is the best you can do then draw away. Try switching up methods of drawing on each page. Draw in straight lines in one drawing and in loopy lines the next. Find where you operate the best, unless of course you already have.

[Rabbi Satan]

Thanks Concrete,

I think I know what you mean by straight and loopy lines. I am already comfortable with drawing outlines with straight lines - I can't seem to do accurate contours with loopy lines, as I have to draw the line and think of the contour at the same time, whereas with straight lines, I can think, then draw, think, then draw, think, then draw, etc and repeat until the contour is finished.

But I'll try to experiment with using loopy lines to draw contours before I move any further.

But I have a question - am I doing badly? Since Linguini was able to proceed faster than me, and I'm currently stuck here T_T.

Thanks :).

[ConCrete]

You should not compare yourself to Linguini. This is not a race. You have some work to do yet on the foundation of form. Patience and enjoying yourself while you draw the human body in many different styles and media are what you need to concentrate on. You are making progress and you are learning, I know its rough and you may get bored but fighting that and simply drawing are the best solutions. Compare your first drawings to your newest post. I see a massive improvement. Keep that up, thats your assignment.

[Rabbi Satan]

Heya Concrete, here are 4 more pages.

The first two I did for some time.

The 3rd and 4th I did quickly, but I don't know how much time I took. But it was over 30 seconds and under 2 minutes for each.

[ConCrete]

These are a good. Look more at the hands. The planes they create. Their size in relation to the entire form. As well as the feet. If you want to impress someone have a really nice life drawing, and easily understood feet. Well done. Keep up this kind of study.

[Rabbi Satan]

I hope you don't mind me starting to draw things in photoshop using the tablet, as I seriously need practice in that area :)

I decided to try to go for drawing feet. I am somewhat ok at drawing the outline, but I am horrible at drawing the toes and the "ridge" of the foot. I have no idea how to draw the ridge, do you have any advice concrete?


Edit:

Here are some more studies of hands, I did these all from imagination with my left hand as a reference for the more tricky hand gestures/poses. So they weren't all from imagination.

[Linguini]

I realize this isn't the assignment...but here's something I did in art class to show I'm actually, er, trying to do stuff that'll help me progress as an artist.

It was an assignment in colored pencils studying color...and my first completely colored pencil piece, if you don't count a failed toy study that I gave up on. - -"

This week was just so massively busy; I'm going to try to catch up over this weekend. Sorry, again.

[Rabbi Satan]

That's a lovely piece of art Linguini, nice use of vibrant colours :) Makes me think of Leela from Futurama with 2 working eyes.

Here are some more studies of hands and figures done from imagination.

Edit:

ConCrete, do you know a good place to find poses for feet?

I'll try to do some from observation.

[ConCrete]

WOw guys, my subscription wasn;t updating me on these. I will respond tonight to all of them, my bad.

[ConCrete]

Rabbi, The ridge of the foot is not a solid line, you have to suggest it with soft lines, or the front of the ankle leading into it. A human brain knows the shape of the foot and how it is put together, so suggesting it is all you have to do. Your feet are short and blocky, I would find some more pictures of feet, and no there is not a compilation of feet somewhere on the web, you need to look for them in magazines or online or ask someone to pose for you. You have to draw lots and lots of feet before you 'get' them. I finally got hands a couple of weeks ago, it take me one or two tries when it used to take ten to get dynamic hands that read like hands. Feet are messed because they have two shapes, one for load bearing and one not. The entire shape changes when they are weight bearing, in any case keep drawing, its something you discover by trial and error.

Lingiuni, Her face is very well done. Some suggestions, her skin tone and the background are too close for me. I would have blued her some more. Her face is slightly lopsided but otherwise believable. Her shoulders are far too small for her head, unless shes a child, which is doesn't seem is the case. you have such awesome depth in the eyes, they really pop for me, I wish we could have had that throughout her face. But thats more an artistic call than anything else. Its a wonderful study, a success in my book. I figured you were female because your proportions were better. No biggie I have actively maintained "linguini' as gender neutral throughout most of the thread.

[Rabbi Satan]

Danke Schon Concrete :)

But in other news, I'm trying to draw faces for the exercise in the "Classroom for All!" sub-forum. I know that I can draw the faces form reference and observation, but I want to try to draw them from imagination to improve the drawing from imagination skills. I can draw male faces alright enough, but I'm having trouble with female faces. All I know are that the female faces are much more smoother in shape and contours, thinner/narrower chin and higher eyebrows, but that's it. And from what I draw, they don't make convincing faces.

Would you have any tips and pointers in drawing the female face?

I'll also get back to drawing hands and feet.

[ConCrete]

I have said this before but drawing from life IS how you build the vocabulary for drawing female faces from imagination. Very rarely should you draw from imagination alone. I cannot stress how much even the top artist rely on either pulling from abstract or life. So draw from life, and eventually you will be able to pull from imagination but that may take years. And your art will be so much better in the mean time if you use source. C'mon Rabbi, don't make it harder than it already is.

[Rabbi Satan]

Heheh, ok, thanks :) I guess it's just my stubbornness playing up again.

Ok, I'll draw from reference.

[Linguini]

Thanks to both of you for the comments. :teeth:
The face is actually a lot more blue and pink in the actual drawing; my camera kind of leeched some color, and made the orange more yellow-ish, too. I think in the picture I used, the model is extending her head near to the camera, or something, but I can see how the shoulders look too small. Thanks for the critique - I'll definitely try to pay more attention to the proportions and the color next time.

So I finally have the assignment, heh. I hope the picture is alright; I got a new computer (early Christmas present, heh) and the scanner software isn't installed, so it's taken with a camera.
On some of my reference pictures, some bones were prominent so that really helped. I'm afraid I'm at a loss at how the elbow works, though (I better look it up), and some joints were hard for me to picture the bones. Each one took maybe...ten minutes?

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r315/Fettucine/002.jpg

[Rabbi Satan]

Here are some more feet studies (All from observation, no imagination this time, heheh), I'll switch to hands next.



Edit:

Here are the hands - done from observation from Hogarth's Dynamic Hands book.


Further Edit:

Nice figures Linguini :) I find that the toughest parts when drawing the skeleton for me are the radius and the ulna, and foreshortening. I have to keep remembering that the radius is always on the outside when it starts at the eldow, and vice versa for the ulna.

[ConCrete]

Linguini. Wonderfully done. The outside of the femur, below the hip extends to the skin. You can feel it. It runs diagonally through the quadricep and the femoral bicep. The scapula moves a ton depending on where the arm goes, pay attention to where it is depending on the pose of the arm. With my palm up my ulna and radius align parallel, thats as far as they go, when I tunr my hand down they turn over each other. It takes a while to be able to get it but it does impact how someone reads your pose and sometimes assuming the pose helps greatly in finding out what goes where. Otherwise well done. They look phenomenal and I can tell you are learning. On the next assignment I want you to focus on the specific joints you listed as being more difficullt, the shoulder, elbow, wrist, and of course the pelvis.

Rabbi. Very very nice. Those hands look wonderful. Whatever you are reading or looking at for additional help has worked. these are a real step above the rest. The toes are skewed by the nails laid into them, and thats okay, the toes themselves look good, the nails are the next step for you, they are really instrumental in describing the orientation of the toes and fingers. In all of your hand drawings you are placing lots of lines on the surface of the hand, either to show the tendons and or the veins. These are distracting, find where a few lines need to be and use the saying "less is more". Now do a page of these kinds of hands without Hogarth's help. Do not fall into Hogarth's style, but use what you have learned to better express your style.

In both of your cases, very well done. Keep up the amazing work, you both are showing so much progress I am freaking out.

[Rabbi Satan]

Thanks for the positive comments ConCrete :)

Anyway, I'm quite good at drawing from observation and "copying" the drawing by itself, but I'm still quite bad at drawing from imagination. I still haven't gotten all the subtle nuances that Hogarth was able to instill in his hands. I'm also bad at extreme foreshortening of the fingers, such as when they're pointing directly straight at the viewer. I don't quite know how to approach it - any advice? (I try to imagine the form in 3d space, but I'm not good at this - is this something of a skill that can be developed further?) I currently try to solve this by either drawing the parts that are visible to the eye, but that leaves a flattened image, and if I try to build upp the form by drawing the ball joints behind one another, it leaves a bit of a mess. Any advice would be wonderful :)

Anyhow, as for the drawing I'm attaching, the main one was done from imagination, with some elements taken from observation for correction, and then some imagination corrections again to make it more my style. It's still abundantly Hogarthian though, but it's a style that I quite like.

The other 3 crap ones were done form observation - Number 2 was the one I was having the most trouble with, I just don't know how to tackle extreme foreshortening. I know how to tackle light to medium foreshortening, but none extreme or severe.

Thanks ConCrete.

[ConCrete]

Practice Practice Practice. Draw what you see. All the hints and comments are going to be the same, it either sells as a finger or it doesn;t, and drawing it over until it does sell si the only way to 'know' how to draw it like that. Again STOP DRAWING FROM IMAGINATION! Fine artists draw from imagination if you are here to be an illustrator or concept artist you draw from reference and from source. Unless you are Marko Djurdevic. Then you draw form imagination. You and I and Linguini are not anywhere near Marko, so draw from reality and life! Draw light and draw over and over and you will find a method and a way to make it work, it just takes time and practice. NO MORE IMAGINATION! For now at least. And take it easy on the ball joint hogarthian style. It looks comic book, which is NOT good. The fingers on your big hand are super small, both in width and length. You are getting better though. So much better than your first drawings here. I am proud of you.

[Rabbi Satan]

See what I mean how stubborn I am when it comes to drawing from imagination? :D It's been ingrained into me by myself since childhood to draw from imagination, its a hard habit to kick.

But anyway, I'll try my utmost to kick the habit. No more formulas then, just observation drawings.

(Also, I thought the reverse would be true - Fine Artists draw from real life, and concept artists and illustrators draw from imagination?)

Danke Schone Senor ConCrete :)

Thanks.

[ConCrete]

Well it really depends on the artist. I think fine artist are all over the place and I know illustrators beg borrow and steal everything they can, as far as concept, I have seen some ridiculous ways to stay fresh and inspired. Watch Android Jones's $10 film on thumbnails. I think that school for me at least was all about imagination and just recently have I relaized that reference is how you do it, until you are SO good as to not need it. But I rely more and more on reference, not tracing, not copying, reference for my work and the quality went through the roof. The human mind it built to adapt, built to augment, it is not built for originality. There is rarely and original idea, to borrow and steal from another, but show it in a new light is not a bad thing. Its all about making it live its own life. And slowly human kind evolves higher and higher art. Thats completely off the record and off the books. Just draw and you will figure it all out in time.

[Rabbi Satan]

Ok, here are some more studies from the Dynamic Hands book. I just wish there was one called "Dynamic Feet" :)

Theses all done from observation.

[ConCrete]

Drop hogarths for the next assignment. Apply it to a set of hand drawings and do not look at hogarths.

[Rabbi Satan]

Here are the next studies. It turns out that I don't have Hogarth's style deeply ingrained into me just yet. I kind of like Hogarth's style in a comic sort of way, but I'd like to get achieve realistic hands first.

[ConCrete]

Simply pay attention to distances between objects and the edges of objects. Draw what you see.

[Rabbi Satan]

Here's another study I just did - there was hardly any "construction" here, I drew what I saw. The circles for the knuckles and joints were added in afterwards for my benefit to see if the fingers fit. But I think the ring and the middle finger were a little bit longer than they were supposed to be.

[ConCrete]

The actual palm/hand portion is way too small. If it were bigger the fingers wouldn't seem so thick and long. But the shapes are all there. You just need to pound out the proportions.

[Rabbi Satan]

Thanks CC, will keep practicing :)

I'm still having trouble with female faces, will try to keep doing that from ref, but they still awfully look like male faces though :( Oh well, will keep trying.

[ConCrete]

Those bottom two hands are fresh as all get out. SO MUCH BETTER than the first few posts. Amazing! Keep it up!

3 Pages WOOT!

[Linguini]

Thanks for the great comments, guys. RabbiSatan, your hands are great! Maybe we can get together to work on faces sometime; my faces tend to lean toward femininity, and I can never get a male face right.

ConCrete...sorry, but I haven't got the assignment. Could you maybe show me how the joints move so I can get a better grasp? I've been overloaded with exams, since Christmas break is coming.

On the other hand, I just finished my friends' Christmas presents, and thought I'd share some of the holiday spirit with you guys. :teeth:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r315/Fettucine/Cocoa.jpg
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r315/Fettucine/Spoon.jpg
I made chocolate covered spoons to go with hot cocoa. :D

[ConCrete]

I am leaving for Italy in 2 days for 2 weeks. When I get back I will give you a hand. Try drawing muscles. They help a ton in showing how torsion and joints work.

[Rabbi Satan]

Ah, Italy :) Have a great time Concrete - will you be keeping tabs on this thread from Italy? Or after you've finished with your Christmas Holiday in the heart of the Renaissance's origin?

I've been busy with Michael Mentler's Bottega, the classroom for all section, a thread in community activities and a thread in fine arts section. And add all that to my daily routines, so I have been having to partition my time. But I'll try to do some more hands before you leave.

Very nice Christmas present there Amy (May I call you Amy?). Perhaps we can work together on our portrait drawing problems? I have the exact opposite problem. I can draw male faces from imagination quite well, but when it comes to female faces, I can't do them very well.

Tell me what you know of how to draw male faces, and I'll help to clarify some issues.

I know that the male face is slightly wider than the female face, but both have the same height. The male face is more angular, with everything having sharper angular features. The nose is bigger, the eye brows are closer to the eyes and angular as well. And the male skull has a noticeable ridge for the eyebrows, whereas the female face it's more smooth.

[ConCrete]

The trick to female faces is an absense of lines. You need to communicate beauty, and beauty in the face of a female is softness, which takes away all of the heavy lines. In a males face the angularity of it communicate male. It is heavier and a beard may be showing through. The eyes are squarish while a females are thinner. Lots of tricks and rules.

And the answer is to draw until you understand.

I have a feeling I will have access but I don't know. I will have a crit night and handle everything I haven;t yet when i get back so don;t not post because I am not here. Have a wonderful holiday season you both and congratulation's on making so very much progress.

[Linguini]

Italy...that's awesome. Bring us lots of pictures! :D And have a great time. I'll try to look up some more joints descriptions in some books and stuff while you're gone.

Sure, you can call me Amy, and thanks. My friends seemed to like them...mostly because it's chocolate. XD

Hmm...I think my problem is that I try to make a man's face "prettier," in a sense, and by doing that I make it feminine. - -" The only way to tell a man from a woman in my sketchbook is mostly by the hair. Umm...I mostly try to define the jaw, make it more square-ish, and thinner eyes, more pronounced cheekbones, and no eyelashes. D: If I have time, I'll try and post a few of my tries.
Er, ConCrete covered most of the defining features of female faces, I believe. Well, of course, since he's the mentor. XD Umm...bigger eyes, definitely, and if you want to make them really pop, I would suggest a bit more almond-shaped. The eyebrows are definitely thinner, and the eyelashes are pretty pronounced (and if you're female curles her lashes or wears mascara, they go "woosh" and are really dark and curvey). I'm not very good at describing these things, heh. Most women have bigger/thicker (?) lips than a man's, which really helps the face become more woman-like. And the hair, of course, is, I think, one of the key features...personally, I like a few strands floating, really gentle lines, etc.



EDIT: Entered into Teen Challenge #39. Hooray!
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r315/Fettucine/SP1-1.jpg

EDIT^2: Going to try to enter something for Chow #100, Medusa. Probably going to be in the beginner category, thank goodness. :D
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r315/Fettucine/001-1.jpg ((Pre-lim sketch for the pose. Going to transfer to better paper once I'm sure the anatomy is right, and add clothes and details and such. I did so much research for the pose, it was a nightmare. But I think it paid off. Ehh...))

[Rabbi Satan]

Heya Concrete, how was your holiday in Italia? Are you back yet? :)

I still have some problems trying to draw female faces, even though I am drawing from reference. (See: http://www.femalefaces.com/)

I have a question and a bit of a cry for help - what's the difference between male and female hands and feet? Besides the hands, feet, and head/faces, I can draw male and female forms convincingly, the arms, legs, thights, torso, shoulders, etc.

[ConCrete]

I'm home.

Crazy trip.

In any case where were we.

Rabbi was asking about hands and feet distinction form male and female and Linguini was working on joints.

Rabbi - Male hands are wider, the fingers are wider. Rarely finger nails. The joints bulge and are hard in nature. Female fingers are long and straight, thin and dainty. Practice a page of female hands and then a page of male hands.

Linguini - Joints...This is where having a muscular friend who doesn't mind taking there shirt off comes in handy. Anyone you may know who lifts weights on a regular basis or has zero body fat will work. Tell them to hold something with a minimal weight, like 5 pounds. And then put their arm into different positions torquing it over their back and beneath their other arm and just watch how the muscles interact. Draw them. I am assuming a model is not going to be available to you so we will figure something else out. I want you to focus on the shoulder. Heres an example of what I am looking for from you.

These are three drawings of male shoulders form older works. They are not completely accurate but I to be honest I have little work that does analyze this joint accurately right now, in the process of refining it myself. Anyways the last one shows torque in the shoulder. The red is the bicep, hidden by the tricep (light blue) and the pectoral (light green). It is flexed so it is small and very defined in shape. The tricep is beginning to flex to bringt the sword down into the unsuspecting gladiator below so it is in the process of becoming shorter. TRicep means three, becasue the tricep is composed of three muscles (wow) and I have not shown those three but it will be important to know where they are. Really muscly people who have zero body fat do show all three. Most of the tricep is the ligament that attaches it to the elbow, bu we will get into that later. The pectoral is a very odd muscle. It attached on the breast bone all the way around to the collar bone and goes onto the inside of the humerus. There are numerous small muscles that make this up and a bunch of deep muscles underneath it but for our sake its one big blob of muscle. The latissimus dorsi is the aqua colored thing on the back. It is a huge muscle that attaches on the underside of the humerus and to the spine from the middle back to the base of the spine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latissimus_dorsi_muscle)

It is responsible for the downward motion of the arm, a rowing motion or in this case, the rapid dropping of the sword into the head of the enemy. Now the lat brings the arm down, the tricep brings the arm straight, and a whole ton of muscles guide this movement, mainly the pectoral.

I want you to analyze pictures or people and their shoulders. I want you to define the pectoral, bicep, tricep, deltoid, latissimus dorsi, trapezius. I think that is all of them. All the muscles that involve the shoulder. And their corresponding bones. The humerus, clavicle, scapula, rib cage, and the spine. This assignment isn't supposed to look beautiful, it is messy and ugly, but you will learn all you need to know about the shoulder. I want three drawings from different angles. You do not need to label them, just show different muscles in different colors. Maybe draw big and small muscled people, or male and female. Your call. Does that sound good?

[Linguini]

Hey ConCrete, welcome back! I bet Italy was molto bene. :D

Oh gosh...umm, let's see, muscular friends...all of the guys I know don't really work out. Except for one, but he lives in another state, woops. It's kind of funny, but the only people who I know are muscular are girls, and asking them to take off their shirt is a little awkward. I can try to look at myself in the mirror; actually, I got a full-length mirror that I've been wanting for Christmas so I could try out poses, so I can try that.

Ahh...we are just now studying muscles of the axial and appendicular skeleton and we got diagrams today, so I will study them in detail tonight. And I'll try to find some good reference pictures to draw and color.

Oh, and we are dissecting cats on Monday, so I'll be sure to take lots of pictures since we are looking at the muscles. :teeth:

And please forgive me if I don't reply for maybe a week or so...I'm taking the SAT in January along with a few big piano competitions (one this Sunday! Aaaah...) and more schoolwork. Thanks for your patience! :D

[Linguini]

Okay, got this done. It was just a sort of pre-study for the other ones. Just did the torso, didn't get the biceps or triceps, so I'll have to search for some reference pictures. Just wanted to let you know that I'm working on stuff.

[ConCrete]

Absolutely Gorgeous. My own studies rarely were this clean. Very nice. This is a wonderful step. Keep exploring. Start to bend the limbs around and find how the muscles speak. When Michelangelo was shown the sculpture "Lacoon and his sons" after it had been restored by another artist he proclaimed that the arm, that was missing in the original, was supposed to be bent. The muscles of the back called for it. The discussion between muscles is very very detailed. Most artists never get to that point. Michelangelo was a genius. But still. Pay attention to every detail. Good work.

[adien]

hey guys,

was browsing the mentor section, and found this thread.

Since you were doing quick drawings, thought I might drop a link to Pose Maniacs, a site I first saw Stoph recommend in another thread. It's not in english, but you can choose the time that the pose stays on the screen (from 10 secs to 90 secs), then hit start. The poses are 3D models with full musculature shown, both male and female.

Pose Maniacs (translated by Google) (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http://www.posemaniacs.com/pose/thirtysecond.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dposemaniacs%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

not sure if it will be useful since I think you've moved on to other assignments...

[Linguini]

That's an awesome site, thanks! Definitely going into my bookmarks.


Finished a page of arm/shoulder studies. These really helped alot and added to my knowledge of the shoulder and arm. Who knew it was so complicated?

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r315/Fettucine/Muscle2.jpg

[ConCrete]

Thanks a bunch adien. Thats an awesome site. Like wow.

I want you to find dynamic poses. Either from that site or from scuplture or from a model or pictures and draw the in dynamic ways. Dynamic being the keyword.

[Rabbi Satan]

My apologies for my absence, I decided to take a bit of a break to recharge.

Anyway, back to business. Concrete, I've been drawing hands for a little bit now, and I've taken in your advice on drawing female hands. But I still can't do it. I can't draw female hands properly. I've tried making them thinner than my usual male hands, but they end up looking like male masculine hands. I've tried "smoothing" my lines by making them curvy, and they work somewhat, but they're still quite masculine.

Any more advice? Like accurate mathematical proportions that I can learn? Not that I will use it religiously always when drawing female hands, but so that I can absorb the generalities and learn to draw the female hand without resorting to turgid mathematical formulas.

I'll post some drawings for you tomorrow, when I can find my digital camera.

Thanks.



Edit:

Oops, forgot to comment in Linguini's studies. They're superb. Keep it up, you're doing far better than I am :)

[ConCrete]

If you are looking for mathematical accurate proportions for any of this you are in the wrong business. I am a mentor rabbi, I show you what you need to learn, I do not teach you. If you need mathematic proportions to better draw female hands type it in to google and find them, I am sure they exist.

When I have found myself bogged down in something artistic I switch my subject. I honestly think the key to female hands lies in their relation to the entire form. If you draw the entire form, or atleast some of the form with the hands, it may be easier to say, wow, female hands. That or come back to this hands debacle in a month with fresh eyes and motivation and try again. Would you like a new assignment?

[Rabbi Satan]

Mmmm, ok, thanks for the advice Concrete :)

I will consider moving to another topic, but I'd still like to tackle this problem. I'm a believer that individual body parts can still be identified as masculine or feminine regardless of being drawn with the entire form. I guess I might be mistaken of that, but I keep seeing drawings of just eyes, nose, hands, etc, by themselves, and they look decidedly masculine or feminine to me.

But what do you mean with the first sentence of your post? I'm slightly confused ?

Thanks, I'll keep at it. I might not be able to post the pictures yet, as I've got a Mandarin lesson coming up tonight. But will definitely do so tomorrow.

But in anycase, I am quite good now at drawing the basic forms/shapes/mannequins of the human form. I can post some if you'd like to see them.

[ConCrete]

The first sentence relates directly to the fact that in art the last thing you should be looking for is a mathematical solution to a problem. Art IS all about problem solving and it relies on instinct and practice, not any sort of mathematics or black and white, wrong or right solutions. So if you feel that you need a mathematical solution to this specific problem, a representation of female hands in comparison to male hands, you should find another outlet for your energies.

What all of that boils down to is, don't look for numbers or statistics to help you draw female hands. Draw female hands over and over until you feel you have accomplished what you set out to do. Look at other artists interpretations and study it by drawing it. Look up a book about drawing hands and study it.

Post whatever you work on. Good luck with mandarin.

[Rabbi Satan]

I can respect what you have to say ConCrete, but I disagree a bit. I'm looking for mathematical formulas as a rough guidline only. I follow them at first, but after a while, I learn to deviate and then draw them however I like, without resorting any more to the original mathematical formulas. That's how I currently draw male hands.

I've done more hands, but I cannot for the life of me draw female hands. I really need all the help I can get on this. I am COMPLETELY lost, and I have no clue how to proceed. I can't find a good source of female hands on the internet, if you know of any that would be a great help.

Can I see how you draw female hands concrete? Any methods of construction is great.

All I know is what you told me - that female hands are narrower, the fingers are narrower, there aren't as many veins on the female hand, the hands are smoother. That's all I know, yet I still can't draw them :(.

Thanks for all the help you can give...

And I still can't draw female faces...



Edit:

To add, this and the female face is giving me a lot of grief, so much so that I've stopped drawing at the moment, I'm incredibly frustrated with this.

[ConCrete]

Like I said. Drop it and come back later. Getting all worked up messes with flow. I will see if I can draw some hands for you to demonstrate. And disagreeing with me is entirely your prerogative and entirely okay. It's art. It's supposed to be personal. And everyone is different.

What else would you like to tackle rabbi?

[Linguini]

Hey, sorry I haven't been around. School and everything, plus I took the SAT on Saturday so I was dead all weekend. I'll get right onto those movement drawings, sorry!



Thanks for the encouragement, Rabbi. Don't give up! I'm sure you're doing great, just keep on practicing. Why don't you post some of your drawings so ConCrete can see what you're having trouble with?

Here's some female hand links (just click on whatever picture you'd like to see):
http://search.deviantart.com/?q=hands%20in:resources/stockart%20in:resources/stockart/model/women+in:resources/stockart/model/women/anatomy&section=browse&qh=boost:popular%20age_sigma:24h%20age_scale:5
http://search.deviantart.com/?q=hands%20in:resources/stockart+in:resources/stockart/model/women&section=browse&qh=boost:popular%20age_sigma:24h%20age_scale:5
Here's some male hand links:
http://search.deviantart.com/?q=hands%20in:resources/stockart%20in:resources/stockart/model/men+in:resources/stockart/model/men/anatomy&section=browse&qh=boost:popular%20age_sigma:24h%20age_scale:5
http://search.deviantart.com/?q=hands%20in:resources/stockart+in:resources/stockart/model/men&section=browse&qh=boost:popular%20age_sigma:24h%20age_scale:5
The stock art section at DeviantArt is pretty darn amazing. :D

The mathematical formula you're looking for might be the golden ratio...? Leonardo Da Vinci used it a lot in his works, I believe. It's based on phi, 1.618..., an irrational number like pi. You probably know it already. The golden ratio is...hmm...I don't explain things well so here's the Wikipedia article, heh heh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio . It's everywhere in nature, especially on the human body. I did a research project on it once in middle school.

The golden ratio relates to the Fibonacci sequence (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8...), and this site really shows you how it applies to the human body: http://goldennumber.net/hand.htm . I gave you the link to the section on hands and feet; it's a really great website.


That ended up being really long, sorry. And sorry if it seems like I'm disagreeing with you, too, ConCrete, about the math formula, I just find the mathematics in art really fascinating. - -"

[ConCrete]

Again, perfectly okay to disagree. You guys, and girls, have to understand I am a student as well, I learn from you as much as you learn from me.

I am very traditional as well. Art is in the eye, all you have to do is learn how to see and you can draw or paint anything accurately. The golden number is fascinating and if thats your angle go for it.

Rabbi, you see how Linguini finds a bunch of source photos of her subject. Learn to do this anytime you are in a rut and you will be golden. Concept art is hugely a research occupation.

I apologize for not having drawings up for you. Between my own independent study I barely have time to type to you guys and girls. When and if I get a chance I will explore with you, until then draw from the deviant art searches or move on to another topic.

[ConCrete]

Are we dead???

[Linguini]

...maybe? I apologize for my absence...I know you said that you were busy, so I didn't want to bother you until I got my assignments done, and well...I haven't gotten them done yet. Junior year is killing me and I have had all this crazy stuff...yeah, sorry, these are all excuses. I'm just trying to get all my pieces for my portfolio done and I haven't had time to really "practice."

But I did have an art show yesterday, which was mucho fantastico. I had four paintings, a graphite portrait, and two ceramic pieces in it. :D