Question on color

[andymania]

After reading and studying color so much (especially the book "Alla Prima" by Richard Schmid) I gained a huge understanding of color and its attributes (hue, chroma, value, temperature) I think I finally understand how color works thanks to this site and great books, however I still have a few questions:

1. If I wanted to intensify a color, do I add more pure pigment or do I have to adjust the pigment's value by adding white and get the same value as the color I want to modify prior to adding it? Then again, white also decreases a colors intensity as well so how does this work??:x

2. If I wanted to paint in a middle chroma palette such as Sargent for example, and I mix up my skin tones using yellows, reds (prior to mixing I adjust the values of the colors by adding some white in order to get the value I want). Now after I have my final mixture, should I then proceed to add some gray of the same value as my mixture in order to desaturate it more? Cause colors still look a little intense and high key even with white added.

3. Let's say I am painting a face with a warm light source and I mix up a bunch of "local color" Hypothetically speaking lets say my skin mixture is Naples Yellow, vermillion and some white. The shadow side is cool in temperature and darker in value obviously. Now:

a. Would I mix in a little of my local color with the shadow color? Andrew Loomis stated in Creative Illustration that shadows do contain a small tiny amount of the color you see in the light just not very saturated. Now if I mix in a small amount of local color to my shadow mixture which probably contains alot of ultramarine or some dark browns, wouldnt the color get muddy since I am mixing colors from opposite sides of the color wheel?? Also adding the color would also lighten the value of my shadow color as well...so I am a little confused here.

b. can I make a totally separate shadow mixture that contains only maybe one color from the light mixture?

4. Color temperature: warm cools and cool warms.

Ex: Would A lot of Cadmium Red with a touch of ultramarine blue be considered a cool warm and a lot of ultramarine blue with a touch of cadmium red be considered a warm cool?

5. Richard Schmid talked about how important color temperature is but more importantly HOW MUCH cooler or HOW MUCH warmer one color is compared to another.How can I tell the degree of temperature between colors?

That's it for now......any info would be greatly appreciated.

-Andy

[andymania]

any ideas on this?

[Art_Addict]

If I wanted to intensify a color, do I add more pure pigment or do I have to adjust the pigment's value by adding white and get the same value as the color I want to modify prior to adding it?

I don't understand that question. But... in general paints coming straight from the tube are in their highest chroma. It's the value of some that can be distracting. And yes adding white to any color desaturates it.

Take a look at Munsell. That might be of some help to.

3. Let's say I am painting a face with a warm light source and I mix up a bunch of "local color" Hypothetically speaking lets say my skin mixture is Naples Yellow, vermillion and some white. The shadow side is cool in temperature and darker in value obviously. Now:

a. Would I mix in a little of my local color with the shadow color? Andrew Loomis stated in Creative Illustration that shadows do contain a small tiny amount of the color you see in the light just not very saturated. Now if I mix in a small amount of local color to my shadow mixture which probably contains alot of ultramarine or some dark browns, wouldnt the color get muddy since I am mixing colors from opposite sides of the color wheel?? Also adding the color would also lighten the value of my shadow color as well...so I am a little confused here.

You should paint the color as it appears in front of you. Blur your eyes to get rid of the detail and form and identity of the thing you're painting and just look at is as a spot of color while keeping in mind the temperature of your lightsource and surrounding colors. Move your eye over the subject all the time. Don't stare into a shadow. Always move...

b. can I make a totally separate shadow mixture that contains only maybe one color from the light mixture?

Again.. what do you mean with one color of the light mixture? I may be wrong but I think you're looking to much for straight rules. When it comes to painting from life, there are none. It's more important to realize that all things are relative. One situation vs another, how colors appear next to each other, temperature, value even focus and edges etc etc. It all works together and is NEVER the same in another setting.

About color temperature. : Ex: Would A lot of Cadmium Red with a touch of ultramarine blue be considered a cool warm and a lot of ultramarine blue with a touch of cadmium red be considered a warm cool?

No, again, it's relative. Only against another color that is warmer or cooler. Maybe in one situation but not in another.

No straight rules, I'm sorry. You just have to learn to see, that's all.
Hope this still helps.

[Jason Ross]

To be honest andy. You are asking a question that requires an extremely long winded answer. And your question is on topics that have been discussed numerous times in these forums. Try searching some key words.

but ill try to touch on some of your concerns best i can.

1. add pure pigment. adding white lightens the value of color but desaturates it as well.

2. adding the same value grey to your mixture sounds right to me but i would recommend finding a book on sargents technique.

3. a... it shouldn't get muddy because the mixture of your shadow colors should start from your local color (in your example). that helps harmonized the local color to shadow color transition.

b...yes imo. the color of the shadow side of objects are based off of the same theory as the lighted side. shadow color + illumunating light source color. its just that most times its abmient or reflected light in shadow.

4. yes. its usally based from the artists experience with certain named colors. if your are used to labeling certain blues as ultramarine then you may see a blue color as...(ultramarine + little bit of cadmium red) = a warm ultramarine even tho it's still actually blue and thus a cool color. but color temperature is usually personal and based on the painting as a whole "color average". as in a cool painting with some warm touches. those warm touches are still "cool colors" but look warm in comparsion to the rest of the painting.

5. practice by doing really. experimentation and observation is best here.

heres a great link here at conceptart.org
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=84105
very solid info.

[andymania]

Guys,

Thanks a bunch for the response. Art Addict, let me clarify question 1 for you.
I realized now that it is a bit confusing. Let's say for example I have a cabinet made out of wood that is orange/light brown in local color. Now let's shine some bright warm sunlight on it (12 noon sunlight). Now lets presume I used too much white paint in order to create the area on the cabninet that is lightest in value. Richard Schmid mentions that in order to recompensate for the cooling and desaturating effects of white, some warmness has to be added/ Does this mean I should I a very small touch of a pure warm pigment (maybe yellow, not sure)? I am just afraid since color=value that by adding pure pigment, my value will go up as well.

I hope this is a little more clear.

-Andy

[Farvus]

a. To me the muddy colour would be good result beacuause you want to get something less saturated in shadow than in light.

Unless it's really strong light that falls onto bright surface (like pale skin). Bright objects next to this pale skin would create lots of reflected light and all that ambience would make shadows on skin become more saturated than on the light side. While also light side would be even more desaturated beacause of strong white added to it. But maybe I'm wrong :).

[Art_Addict]

Guys,

Thanks a bunch for the response. Art Addict, let me clarify question 1 for you.
I realized now that it is a bit confusing. Let's say for example I have a cabinet made out of wood that is orange/light brown in local color. Now let's shine some bright warm sunlight on it (12 noon sunlight). Now lets presume I used too much white paint in order to create the area on the cabninet that is lightest in value. Richard Schmid mentions that in order to recompensate for the cooling and desaturating effects of white, some warmness has to be added/ Does this mean I should I a very small touch of a pure warm pigment (maybe yellow, not sure)? I am just afraid since color=value that by adding pure pigment, my value will go up as well.

I hope this is a little more clear.

-Andy

ok :) Well you should warm up the mixture if your light area seems too cool.
But no, it does not mean adding yellow or any other color cause that, again, depends
wholly on the circumstances presented in front of you. I can not give you any straight
mixing/color advice based on a mental image.
If the lighted area seems too cool, it can also be that your shadow is too
warm. Relate one thing against the other. Painting shouldn't be about copying exactly
what's in front of you. But more about capturing the effect of the
light. I can not stress this enough, compare constantly !

About understanding the relationship between tube color chroma vs value, Munsell might be of help. : http://www.applepainter.com/

[andymania]

ahhhhhhhhh,

A light bulb went off again. Thanks art addict. I understand now. Thanks a lot guys.

-Andy