Whats the deal with artists....

[gasmask]

Hey guys, im an artist too but why do i always hear people complain about their salaries in this industry, i know the pros are making bank, why do you act like it pays minimum wage or something?

[stalecracker]

Define "making bank"... If you think that we are rolling in dough, you're sadly mistaken.

[gasmask]

hahahahahahaha, well i guess that depends how u invest ur money too, no what i mean is i heard the game industry pays like 30 to 150k a year, and from a reliable source, and i assume if ur pro, thats pretty dam nice considering most homes average less than 50k a year

[ClocktowerArtworks]

consider the amount of time and effort put in to not only creating a piece of art, but the lifetime of practice and preparation it took to reach the level of skill needed to create that piece of art. Now try to put a price on it. Good luck.

[Sammy]

True ClocktowerArtworks, but we are a dime a dozen...

In my opinion a conceptual designer should be getting paid "bank" for his imagination and how well he's able to visualize it .... not how well it's rendered or that it took 20 hours to do...

but does everyone here want to be the concept artist their whole career? I might.. I'd have to see how it goes.. but I like to at least dream of becoming a Lead Artist or Production Designer.. big dreams maybe.. but gotta try :)

[gasmask]

Yeah same sammy, i plan to work in the industry but after awhile i want to go bigger. like start a design studio or yeah production design would be dope.

[stalecracker]

I'm a Senior and current Lead at Sony. I'd say it's 75% management and 25% creative. Sometimes 50/50 . Wether or not that's true at other houses... who knows. All I know is I would consider a pay CUT to be "just a concept guy". But I have a family and that don't pay da bills. SO I slog through the less creative aspects of the daily grind and relish the creative moments. But the bulk of my creativity finds it's home in the freelance arena.

[Sammy]

stalecracker, what position did you start out as .. if you don't mind my asking..

It's very interesting what you said .. 'cause now we see why management positions are paid more ... they just aren't as fun..
In my opinion I think that Managing positions are best served by current or former artists.. at the very least they RESPECT the projects..

[Chromo48]

I don't want to make this 20 questions for Stalecracker, but I'm just curious, since it was sort of touched on earlier.
Obviously you need to be able to draw/paint with a moderate level of skill, but... In your experience as a concept artist, which was stressed more; your ability to render an image nicely and quickly, or your ability to come up with original and catchy ideas for the rendering? Or is it a pretty even balance?

[N D Hill]

Though I'm not one with the experience to back what I'm saying, but I think you have to be willing to adapt. With the groing popularity of videogames, the supply of artists has definitely surpassed the demand. Unless your one of the legends, I think it's hard to achieve the stable income in job security. Who knows, even then it may be pretty tough. I think it's an important thing to have done a lot of different kinds of work and being willing to adapt and do more than just make concepts. Graphic design, storyboarding, straight up illustration and making 2-D textures are all important skills and so is an art education. I also think it's important to make a name for yourself and be able to do things you may not like to do but are usefull to the industry. Experience is a pretty universally valued resource too.

Right now, I'm an art student but I'm also working on a project for an independent developer where I only get paid if we end up selling to a publisher. If I don't get paid, I'll at least have the experience of having done the work.

Okay. Now it's time for one of the pros to tell me I'm all wrong and make my world come crashng down.
:rambo: :machinegu :xx:

[stalecracker]

Sammy: I satrted as a Concept Artist at a small, no name start up that instantly failed. Making minimum wage plus a buck or two. I kept drawing out of a love for the "craft" and worked my way up. It's NOT just enough to be able to draw well. You need to be able to think n your feet and sketch quick. Produce decent art fast. THe secret, inmy opinion is not to create a finished, beautiful piece. But one that has a life. Vitality, personality... a good concept should tell a characters story without needing to have it spelled out for you. Take a look at HawkPreys thread...

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10005


Those pieces, in my opinion sum up good, quality concepts. They look quick and energetic and yet they look like REAL characters. They have personality and each "have a story to tell". Hawk could take any one of those and "finalize it" and BAM you've got a good solid concept.

Chrom 48: In a quick summation... I'd say it's 50/50. I LOVE seeing finished, fully rendered, beautiful art but I don't have that time in my schedule. Ironically... if someone on my team took say a full week to give me a fully rendered concept... my response would be "Nicework! But I need to see 3-4 more in a day or two. Game produstion isn't slow and methodical. It is quick and ruthless. For the most part...

Exo: In my opinion... the gaming industry is on the end of a "Glut of artsy people Vs. quality artists" The comic book industry went throught the same thing several years ago. Too many people who could "sorta draw" flooded the market and to keep up with demand... people were hired withouthaving a well rounded set of abilities or limited artistic abilty. i.e" Hey, I can draw really cool decapitated heads" "Perfect, we are doing a decaptitated head GAME!!! You're hired!!!" When the project ends... then what?

I think the two most important qualities a concept artist can have are 1)Ablity and 2) Adaptiblity.

Guess which one will get you the farthest? :cool:

[Sammy]

Thanx for all the nice info!

I've always thought the best concept artists should be the best Pictionary players.. so I've always looked towards my speed.. and communication..

when speaking to a company how do I describe to them how fast I am? (I'm really fast.. it's what I've worked towards) Should I put it on my website?
I've always worked on my ability to creat something visual within 10 min.. 'cause it seems like being the concept artist would come in more handy at the meetings sketching stuff out on the whiteboard.. or on a napkin..
getting the whole team inspired and thinking positive about the game..

[gasmask]

This is all good info but still my point remains, if ur good and a lead, how are u not making good money? i have researched it and i found a few things like....http://austin.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2002/06/17/daily20.html........and thats on average, sounds pretty dam good to me, and dont get me wrong, im not on this path to make money, i do it cause its whats fun to me, i just want to know why i always am hearing artists dont make jack

[mtmckinley]

I'm a new 3D artist at a game studio. My first studio job, and I make approximately $30k a year. Not bad, right? But then factor in rent, car payment, insurance, utility bills, etc etc plus, as a contractor, having to pay 100% of my own taxes from my pocket rather than witholdings, etc etc that "ooh, nice!" can quickly go to, "Where'd all that money go?" :)

Just my view on it. Besides, money's meant to be spent, right? Might as well spend it on the electric bill. lol

[gasmask]

yeah thats my point, ur still making good money but ya gotta pay bills ovcoarse but consider that u can make over 100k a year, thats way better than most people

[Elwell]

Originally posted by gasmask
... thats way better than most people

Artists are better than most people:p. I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling that we should be compensated accordingly, or with bitching about it when we're not.

[gasmask]

what are you talking about, i think the rates that i have seen on average from my research is great.

[Vader]

As long as i can draw for a living i,m fine.

I,m finishing my graphics course at A level this year and building up my portfolio. Well actualy its going to be my first proper portolio. Next year i hope to study Illustration at a nearby collage. My question is what should i do then? i would like to go to uni but i,m not sure what course to do.

Concept art is one of those blurry areas of employment, not to many people know what it is. So what courses should i look at?

I also have a chance to go to a local theatre company and meet with set designs and the art group. will this benefit me?

[Szyslack]

i think that job security is one factor that is overlooked in this thread.

[gasmask]

I didnt intend for this thread to be about job security, thats a diff subject, but i wouldnt worry, if ur good, getting a job shouldnt be hard.

[bat]

Originally posted by gasmask
I didnt intend for this thread to be about job security, thats a diff subject, but i wouldnt worry, if ur good, getting a job shouldnt be hard.

You have no idea. Job security doesn't really exist anymore, in most any industry. Doesn't matter how good you are, there are always downtimes for freelancers. I know people who have gone from making AWESOME cash doing Magic cards to doing odd advertisement jobs and chopping wood to make ends meet. Never overestimate your skills. Not to sound like a downer, but a realist. Even the big companies in role-playing, Wizards of the Coast, the biggest for example, chopped around 90% of their staff artists. They are the good people, making good money, do you think they all found jobs right away? I think job security is a major factor, and definitely related to the big picture.

bat

[gasmask]

My point is, if ur a pro, you will easily be able to find a new job like that, i can gurentee that the pros get swamped with emails for job offers

[bat]

Originally posted by gasmask
My point is, if ur a pro, you will easily be able to find a new job like that, i can gurentee that the pros get swamped with emails for job offers

I won't name names, but I know for a fact that this is not the case. Think about it in a larger scope, the entertainment field; there are a lot of out of work actors that were in major motion pictures, and how many bands are one hit wonders? There are no absolutes. You are not guarranteed anything. The best thing to do is to keep pushing yourself and always keep contacts open. It is always favorable to share job information. The artist/illustrator you help find a job when you are swamped will hopefully return the favor when the chips are down for you.

bat

[gasmask]

And i also know for a fact this is the case that pros get swamped with job offers, i know a pro......so if ur a pro concept artist ur gonna be highly sought after because their arent that many out there at all, and concept artist jobs are rare unless u are a pro.

[Szyslack]

i think you should ask your friend why he get so much work all the time. i'm betting that he/she has good networking skills.
thats my guess anyway.

[gasmask]

not really, just a well known concept artist

[daniela]

Hey gasmask, why don't you give us a name, or web site or something for this friend of yours? It would be great if you could get this friend to post something here to defend your pov, and maybe give some pros here advice on how to be "swamped" with job offers. I'd like a little more info. It's hard to believe that anyone, no matter how good or well known they are, has so many job offers in today's economic climate. I would like to know their secret.

[gasmask]

umm ok, they do post here and i wont name names, but its someone with a pro tag, and yes, if u are indeed a professional concept artist, i mean pure talent, i gurentee it will be that way.

[stalecracker]

Success in this or any creative industry is HEAVILY based on networking. Ability or "talent" factors in as well... but I CAN, with complete certainty, say this... I would rather have 3 mediocre, yet dependable/hard working artists on my team as opposed to one "super-talented" slug. I can show people how to expand their thought process or help inspire creativity. Gasmasks friend may be a talented individual but either "he" or someone close to "him" (i.e. publicist, agent, Mom...) is networking and calling and emailing their ass off. Work don't jest fall from dah sky. I am busy 24/7 ONLY because I am obnoxious and stick my foot in the door and say "got anything for me?"

Artists and whores have one BIG thing in common... we both have to sell our asses to make our money.
(A PHENOMENAL Art Professor at S.C.A.D. told me that)

Truer words were never spoken.

[Sammy]

I'm at SCAD.. mind telling me the professor ? or PMing me if it's personal?

I'm assuming you went to scad.. what major?

As an art lead.. how permanent are you.. I was under the impression that art leads don't really do freelance unless they're workaholics :)

[stalecracker]

Sammy: The Profeesor was Zdislaw Sikora. He was/is an anatomy prof. I was their 91-93. Got my MFA in Illustration there.

As an art lead I'm as permanent as any regular job. AS long as I perform and remain creative I am relatively secure. Of course... there's always LAY OFFS!!! Fun stuff... reminds you how expenable you are. Like my Dad always said "...There's no such thing as an indispensable man" As far as freelance goes... I do it because my job can be "not so creative" at times and I refuse to go gently into that goodnight. I want to stay in the flow. To many of young'ns are nipping at my heels. The key(s) to longevity in this bidness is to have a vital network of contacts and evolve artistically and never assume you can't learn anything else.

[poopinmymouth]

Coming in late to the thread, but I just wanted to comment. I make 30k a year as a junior artist, and it is letting me live pretty well. i would of course love to have more, but Just the experience is really making it worth it. Also on the comment of being good is enough, im sorry but like Stale cracker said, it just isnt. You need so much more than that to procure a job and to keep it, its jut not funny. Its you as an overall person, getting along well with the team, speed, quality, how fast you catch on, being in the right city at the right time. I feel very lucky to have this job right now, and I know there isnt a garanteed tomorrow, but I am lovin it anyway.

[bat]

Originally posted by gasmask
My point is, if ur a pro, you will easily be able to find a new job like that, i can gurentee that the pros get swamped with emails for job offers

When you get there, let us all know, then you will be speaking from experience. I feel your friend is more a fluke than a fact.

bat

[gasmask]

a fluke? give me a break dude, when i say good, i mean all those things poop said, why would i make it up

[bat]

Originally posted by gasmask
a fluke? give me a break dude, when i say good, i mean all those things poop said, why would i make it up

I never said you made anything up. I meant a fluke as in an exception to the rule. A lot more goes into being in art than 'being that good'. I know people that good and they still have downtime, clients drop out of business, deals change, contracts suck too bad to accept. And you narrowed it down to concept art, which is a much narrower field. I am not sure exactly how the thread was perverted from artists in the business to an untouchable nebulous concept artist.

bat

[gasmask]

it wasnt supposed to be that way but i had to use that as an example

[gallon]

Interesting points...just started applying for industrial jobs to make ends meet...hopefully I'll get the time to freelance and some money... hopefully

[AfroLaxMan]

gasmask-
I am a pro, been a pro for about 6 years. I know my work doesn't even come close to the talent level here on this site, but, as stalecracker hath speaketh- speed and abilty to show your concepts (even partially) has given me more work than any of my finished works ever could. I have worked for 3 failed companies in the last 2 years, and all had good potential, had good backing (i.e. job security), and all had failed, not to mention, none of them payed well ( worked for free at one place because I beleived in the project).
I was unemployed for the better part of a year, had my baby son just about to arrive, and an empty mail inbox. Then, I knew a guy at my present company, and I luckily got on before all the positions filled up. I didn't take a pay cut, but I know other people who I have worked with in the past that had to in order to pay the bills. I would have just so my son and my wife could eat.
Salaries are relative to the area your are at, as well as how much the company thinks your worth. There are those making some serious coin, but it isn't everywhere, in fact, my experience, it is rare. I don't do this job for the money, but for the passion, no doubt, and never expect more than that.

[gasmask]

good info afro, that was cool u shared ur expeirence in the industy but no offense, u may be in the industry but your not really a pro, when i say pro, i mean the type of talen you see in the main page galleries of the site, your way better than i am but thats what i mean when i say pro.

[AfroLaxMan]

none taken, I know I suck. I am only an enviroment artist, and my stuff gets yanked more than it gets used. All I can say, adabtablity is my only saving grace in this industry.

[gasmask]

You definetly dont suck, you got skills and it makes sense for you to be in the industry seeing the work you have but some people are just ridiclously good is all, haha i wish i was one of those people

[mtmckinley]

pro·fes·sion·al - having a particular profession as a permanent career ; engaged in by persons receiving financial return

If you make money in a particular field as a job, you are a professional in that field. Period.

[gasmask]

do u want a cookie? because i dont care, the people that get all the jobs are the ones on the skill level of the galleries on the main page PERIOD, lol

[headbleed]

its better than digging trenches for a living

[Gr8t100]

even the profesionals you hint at had to pay their due's, nothing comes to you without sacrifices.

[Undertow]

My point is, if ur a pro, you will easily be able to find a new job like that, i can gurentee that the pros get swamped with emails for job offers

Gasmask, speaking from personal experience when you're freelancing for the video game industry there is allot of waiting by the phone, and even when games go through development they don't always make it to their respective platforms. More often than not you'll end up looking for another job after initial development is finished. It's not easy to get a job as an in house guy for some of the bigger companies out there. Check out http://www.escapefactory.com/ I have the power point presentation that was done as a post mortem on what they did wrong if you're curious about the business end of game development.

-Mike

[April]

Just because a couple of people can possibly make up to six-figures doesn't mean everyone is making that much. Most people have an income around the bottom end of that 30K-150K range.

"Pro" is not limited to the top 10% of the field. You can call it what you like, but someone gave the definition of Professional already--as people who make their living at it (in this case--art in general, free-lancing concept art in particular).

The top 10% of any field will be making some nice money. Even THEY will complain about not enough work and not enough pay sometimes. Who cares? It's a free country still, isn't it? Or has complaining been declared a terrorist act and outlawed under home security?

Another thing--whether 30K or 150K is good enough depends on the cost of living in your area. If you're living Parkside in Manhattan, 30K ain't gonna cut it. It's not so great if you're in the Bay Area or in many parts of L.A., also.

If you're free-lancing, you need to pay out for health insurance and other things that people on a salary don't. And as someone mentioned there are taxes. And if you're supporting a family the 30K doesn't go far. And you know that the bus drivers and receptionists are possibly making more than you.

I turn down free-lance jobs (in illustration, I'm not really a concepter). Just because you have people wanting you to work for them doesn't mean you like the job they offer or if it pays well, or is the kind of work you do, etc., etc. There are a lot of crappy jobs out there.

Even the top guys go looking for good jobs--or better jobs, no matter how many people are contacting them with job offers.

I'm not interested in hearing second-hand information about friends. If you've got personal experience, then let's hear it.

I've worked in the computer game field for ten years. Artists tend to be paid on average less than the programmers, designers, leads, directors, producers, marketers, hr, etc. If I want to bitch about the pay rates, that's my business. But I won't. Even if the pay isn't that great! :trouble:

[Duq]

I think there is one thing that a lot of people are overlooking here. Being a conceptual artist isn't enough for most comapanies. If you take a look at the game industry for example. There are a lot of gamedevelopers who aren't hireing because artist are eventually very expensive game testers. You are valuable when you can draw, animate, design and can do some programming. No development studio will hire you so you can just draw the first half year for the project and next 1,5 year do shit.

[el coro]

well, as one of the mainpage guys(lol), i'd love to add my 2 cents...lotsa good points here.
Duq: you pretty much nailed it. to be a real asset to a company, you need to know more than just how to draw. i do modelling and lots of texture painting as well. these days to be an asset, you just gotta know that stuff.
i am a concept artist/fine artist/illustrator, working actively in all three fields, and while im not broke, im not making as much as i'd like to. sure i get job offers occaisionally, but very rarely does something come out of thin air...its al networking and who you know. shit, thats almost a job in and of itself. and i would be nowhere if i didnt have friends in the industry. granted im not a top top guy... and back to the pay issue, well, 30-150k is decent money, but when you owe 45-100k in college loans,and pay out the ass in taxes, its not as much as you might think. dont get me wrong, becoming a professional has definitelty helped raise my standard of living...but its never enough...i just went contract at my company, so i have the ability to take on other work, and im pretty much sure at the end of the day i will prolly be making less take home wise, and honestly that scares the shit out of me. i guess where im going with this is that the grass is always greener on the other side, and its not all fun and money in the pro sector. and its alot more living day to day than you might think. the more you know:)...-c36

[kmscottmoore]

Gasmask,

I think that you need to keep in mind that over the course of your life, your financial needs and expectations will change. When I was in college, I was lucky enough to have a job that paid $8/hr (at the time minimum wage was $3.35/hr) I thought if I ever got to the point where I made $50K/year that I would be rich! Big house, BMW, the whole bit.
15 years later, if someone came to me today with an offer of a $50K/year job, I would have to find the most polite way I could to tell them to stick it.

Also, in regards to the article you linked. ALWAYS be suspicious of statistics that you see, especially in the newspaper. Most writers have a very poor understanding of statistics. A little example:

The paper reports "Average salary is $40K a year"

The data:
4 people make $25K, 1 person makes $100K
4*25=100 + 100=200/5=40

While what was reported in the paper is technically true, it is misleading. The more useful measure in this case would be the mode, or the most commonly occuring number, not the mean (usually referred to the "average")

Take a statistics class before you graduate, or at the very least, read the book How to Lie with Statistics. You will be suprised how many of the numbers that are circulated in everyday news and publications are completely wrong.

[nick reynolds]

Hopefully I didn't skip a post on accident and end up repeating it.

Coro if I read it right had to go "contract" for his company so he could take on freelance. Sounds like you get paid less for being contract so you can try and add on top of that with freelance and hopefully make more.

I have a big fat contract that says i can't do any work with other games companies. I can't concept, model, texture, animate or anything else with them or i can get sued and fired then probably getblack listed for breaking contract. So basiclly all my money making talents can't be used outside of work to make more money. When you focus so hard to get into one industry you kind of ingnore those other ways of making money like making websites or doing graphic design. So it is very possible to get trapped. I know I am trapped and poor in LA and it sucks just getting by so I can make games 50-80 hours a week. That giant school loan is always bitting at my heals too. I had more money and free time when i was in college, had a nice big SAFE place, and a part time job in AZ. I guess you have to sacrifice to get in or something I'm not sure only time can tell.

All I know is that I can't post my work until the game is shipped so all my work is hidden so I don't have anyone banging on my door or filling up my email. So good luck to you and I hope you can be called "pro' on your terms and make a billion dollars.

[Jason Manley]

Hopefully I didn't skip a post on accident and end up repeating it.

Coro if I read it right had to go "contract" for his company so he could take on freelance. Sounds like you get paid less for being contract so you can try and add on top of that with freelance and hopefully make more.

I have a big fat contract that says i can't do any work with other games companies. I can't concept, model, texture, animate or anything else with them or i can get sued and fired then probably getblack listed for breaking contract. So basiclly all my money making talents can't be used outside of work to make more money. When you focus so hard to get into one industry you kind of ingnore those other ways of making money like making websites or doing graphic design. So it is very possible to get trapped. I know I am trapped and poor in LA and it sucks just getting by so I can make games 50-80 hours a week. That giant school loan is always bitting at my heals too. I had more money and free time when i was in college, had a nice big SAFE place, and a part time job in AZ. I guess you have to sacrifice to get in or something I'm not sure only time can tell.

All I know is that I can't post my work until the game is shipped so all my work is hidden so I don't have anyone banging on my door or filling up my email. So good luck to you and I hope you can be called "pro' on your terms and make a billion dollars. in right to work states those non competes you sign are worth nothing. they make you sign them but they arent worth the paper they are printed on. if you are not in a right to work state then those contracts are good. if not...its just BS.

coro is right...stale is right...april is right. here is a way to think about it. an artist in games with about three years experience will be around sixty thousand in many cases. 60k is about 1850 every two weeks take home. If you live in LA then you can wipe 1500 out for rent if you live by yourself. throw in 300 bones for car payment on a jetta, 150 a month insurance, eight hundred or more in student loans a month, six hundred for food, two hundred utilities, 100 bucks gas,....a couple hundred in fun money...and thats it. wait for the next paycheck. now consider that this artist is workin eighty hours a week and you get the fukkin point. point is...in LA and SF or the like that kind of cash is enough to be able to afford to go to work. no one is going to be driving a new porsche 911 on that kind of cash. a game pro with that salary cant even afford to BUY a house where they live. Houses in LA or SF will run 300-325k just for a one bedroom condo unless you are on the dirty side of town. The payment and taxes on a piece of property like that is out of the reach of that salary level for the most part. Granted, those making that cash are not living on ramen...they are not rich either. bump to seventy five k and its a new tax bracket yes? well there goes that raise you just got. When you make that much cash, then you will see that it is not a lot of money. If you live in texas or florida or the like then 60k goes a long way...relatively. Just gotta look at the numbers vs. the hard work and you will see that anything in the range of 30-70k is barely making it in the big city.


when i got my first job i thought...jesus that is a lot of cash...im going to make FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS....thats it..im getting a porsche...i can get a porsche....then taxes came...rent...bills...moving expenses....hmmm...where the hell is my porsche? hahaha. Ill have to settle for my rx. J

[nick reynolds]

Oh, thanks for the tip I'll look into that tonight.

[Jason Manley]

i didnt say it wouldnt make your employers unhappy...lol....but its not anything you can get sued over if you are in a right to work state. thats why its called a right to work state...but that also means they can fire at will too. J

[DwayneClare]

Speaking from the low end of the pool here.
I am a concept artist for a SFX company in Vancouver.
I make 15 dollars an hour and I work fast. Thats how I got the job.
In no way will this job pay my bills. I don't even get 80 hours a week!
My 'real' job is working at a door factory. I have been for 13 years. I make 45,000.00 cdn working there.
The reality is with a mortgage, kids, loans etc. I can't afford to quit my 'sure thing' at the factory.
If I took a full time job at some game company, say, EA hired me. I would be lucky to be making 30,000.00 I couldn't do it.
Thats the reality.
Artists are a dime a dozen. This is true. And in tough economic times its hard to convince people to pay for something like art and you can be sure there will always be someone willing to do the work for less.
Hell that guy is me, but in my case if I wasn't willing to do the job there would be no-one doing it. I was just lucky. I had a break, I took it, and I am hoping it will translate into something more rewarding.
Its all about paying your dues I suppose.
The good thing is, unlike, say, a pro hockey player, (or a factory worker, ha) you will never get too old for your job. Stick to it long enough and you are bound to get somewhere eventually.

[fixx]

Haha, adding up the student loans, renting an apartment, insurance, and god knows what else, I have no illusions. And my teacher in anatomy gave all his students a proper smack upside the head and told us about the real world. Quote: "If this was the real world I'd fail you all right now!"
So, all things considered I'm glad I have three years of working experience as a receptionist! Hey, could some of the so-called pros ;) give us noobs some tips about the market? Or is there a thread I've missed?
But thanks for the help Mr. Manley, I appreciate honest people who tell us what we're are in for lol.

[3dimentia]

This thread makes me laugh. I have been in the industry for almost a year now love it, and worry about job security every day. The whole damned thing can come crashing down. Networking is ABOVE ALL the most valuable asset to finding work. And the "Real pros" that you are talking about that are listed on the front of the site are often just extremely technically gifted, not necessarily artistic. I see alot of rehashed work....boring...same as the game industry. Same game, different name, different paint...Look NEW GAME! HAH so not true.


In all why worry about whos a real pro and be all secrative about your "friend" if they are that talented it shouldn't be a problem to call out a name or a website or something else, thats just rediculous.

Anywho, above all, again, networking is key.

My .02

[sciboy]

I actually find this thread a little comforting, i just started my new job with a multimedia company being the all-round code monkey.
And with concept art and animation still in-training on the side there is lots of room for me to expand and make myself a more flexible and valuable addition to the team.

Also something i've heard many times is that the best way to increase profits is to decrease expenses, and it seems that it is nothing but truth considering how quite a few have already mentioned in this thread how quickly your income disappears. =P

[Mort]

ok i was thinking last night as i have been told not to do.
about the money problems of many artists.
lets take a logical approace to concept design. ok you have a company with a great idea, then they need to design the product so it whould sell.
they call a concept designer and he makes the design . the company later can sell their idea.

ok hmm.. how many times i think about it i dont get it. why the concept artist dont make much more money then they do. ok i dont have any charts or numbers, but i have listen to diffrent artist here on the forum and it seems that even the most established artist makes just enough to get by.
that considered that hes got a family house and shit.

what whould metroid be without android for example. the idea that the company has is great but it wont sell until the artist designs it. and that is like 80% of the whole picture . without a good artist then they just got a fancy idea on a paper.

it just dont make sence. i think by that fact that the salarys should be doubled or some legal things to be done about the normal way of payment.

to me its allways the product or the logo that sells and not the guys behind the desk who thought about the product. i just think that concept artists are heavy underpayed.

that and the pr guys.
'
im sure im missing alot of legal stuff here and whatnot but it just seems wierd
when i look at it that way.

[Pixeldragoon]

Almost 2 years old now, this thread is. :D

[Mort]

as yoda you must speak.

gone in time , this thread is.
say i might. older the thread is.

browse another thread you must do.

[John]

And the "Real pros" that you are talking about that are listed on the front of the site are often just extremely technically gifted, not necessarily artistic. I see alot of rehashed work....boring...same as the game industry.

Be careful about whose toes you're stepping on. The game industry has it's clichees but many gamers expect that. When you've played 100 games things get repetitive, just remember most ppl only buy a couple of games each year.

I've read this thread for the second time now, and i have to say it'd be great to stop eating ramen all day.

[InkChick31]

The type of artist you are and how well you are decifers the amount of money your making...Artist struggle as well so not all of them are rolling in money. It takes time and innitiative and sometimes its just luck. Complaining..you'll hear that....at least their not movie stars and celebrities!

[BrianT]

it just dont make sence. i think by that fact that the salarys should be doubled or some legal things to be done about the normal way of payment.

to me its allways the product or the logo that sells and not the guys behind the desk who thought about the product. i just think that concept artists are heavy underpayed.


Hahaha! While I generally agree that artists should be paid more, and that the artistic design work shapes most games greatly, artists are NOT gonna start making as much money as programmers.

Even making over $60,000, and living in any major city, after taxes and basic living costs, it's all gone. You'll be lucky to save a few thousand dollars a year. What you want is to work at a company that pays bonuses out of the royalties earned from the sales of the game. If the game flops, no one gets paid and there could be major lay-offs. If a decent game sells over half million copies, and the royalty structure is good, some big bonuses can come your way. This is the only way your gonna bank some decent cash, other than being a superstar who makes 6 figures yearly.

Mostly smaller game companies pay bonuses like this. It's possible to see bonuses as large as an individual's salary. To me, this is a good way to motivate a team to develop a killer product. Each member of the team thinks: "If I work hard, do my best work possible, there's a chance the quality will shine through in the product and help sell more copies!" Of course, it's a gamble. Sometimes the best game in the world can sell poorly. Marketing plays a HUGE roll..

Bottom line is that it might be hard to find a company who will pay bonuses out of royalties. In my experience, the game industry seems to be hiring more external and internal contractors because of the low-risk factor.

BT

[unknown_epiphany]

dude its almost 3 isnt that disgusting in a sad sort of way? Id go broke to continue my dreams of being in the art field. Money is money and i dont want to be the type who goes nuts at his crap job and brings an AK into the office. Job Satisfaction= happiness

[Devilock138]

I spent 15 minutes on a sketch for a jet bike team and got 100 bucks for it. Nothing makes sense. People may defend art schools for producing an infinite number of people being told they're an artist, produced en masse to flood every god damned piece of the industry with the same games, same killer worms, same ray guns, same drivel. A nuke at the heart of scad would give me a tree choping hardon and would equally exterminate the local source of my irritation; an art school. The art industry only reflects the braindead source of its commercial empire - the public. Standards are low and acquisition is high. If every artist in the country came together and agreed to never do a conceptual piece of work again and only stuck to what came from themselves; artwork reflecting the artist, not game_company_539876, then quality would increase, demand would increase and therefore PAY would increase.

The fact that so many little prostitutes from every fucking 'college of art' are only after a quick buck - albiet a low quick buck is the major reason its impossible for a genuine, born to the stock artist (on average) to rise to a position of artistic liscense with good pay. And all the little whores who are just biding their time pretending to be artists for who knows what reason; fancying some whim of getting laid in art school or something.

Just because someone is taught the technical aspects to perfection this does not make them talented. It sure as shit doesn't make them artistic. You know how many guitarists out there are great guitarists, but their music is boring or overly elaborate, their structure and lyrics blaze and mediocre? Look how much garbage is called art; a fucking dime a dozen. No integrity, no passion, no talent, no more masters. Everyone enslaves themselves to the machine of production and forgets that WE are more important than companies and money. And maybe I'm just full of hot air and shit, but I don't recall many times in my life when I was truely thrilled by a piece of art. Only a fool thinks a job title is descriptive of a person's soul. Professional is a title representing a stabilized career; not the level of talent.

[Pixeldragoon]

If every artist in the country came together and agreed to never do a conceptual piece of work again and only stuck to what came from themselves; artwork reflecting the artist, not game_company_539876, then quality would increase, demand would increase and therefore PAY would increase.


BIG flaw there. I've heard from one major concept artist who everyone here probably knows, whose name I won't reveal, that once he is done with concepting in his career, he wants to explore the abstract. So, if he was to never concept something again against his own will, and only did abstract stuff, the game would be more fun? Or would have better ideas?

Concepts are meant to be concepts, Fine art is meant to be fine art. It's not very common that they can switch roles.

Not to mention, why is it the art schools' fault that their students are inspired by the same stuff? Take Takeshita street in Japan; A street notorious for trend setting. One group will begin to do something original and awesome, and everyone else is influenced by it. The styles keep changing because everyone wants to be original, but they can't help but to be influenced by what's around them. Eventually, the "Followers" may become the Trendsetters.

About the quick buck thing; So many of those "little prostitutes" actually LIKE art, and a handful are good at it. I'm sure the kids at art school who are really trying hard, don't like people like you who think you are too good for art school, and that all art school does is ruin a person.

There is no doubt that alot of art is garbage; But you are being inconsistent. You are switching from the Whores in Art school filling up industry positions, to garbage art. Even if something is cliche, that doesn't make it garbage.
Your name has the word devil in it. That is cliche, so why don't I just call you a piece of garbage?

"Everyone enslaves themselves to the machine of production and forgets that WE are more important than companies and money."

Of course! So why don't we just go form our own company?

Oh wait.


And by the way; your last sentence seems contradictory. You say that art school doesn't give anyone talent, so they shouldn't be in the industry. But if one of "those little whores" is able to maintain a job, but one with alot of talent can't find one, that makes the little "art school " a proffesional, and the talented one not?

I'm confused.

[Sorknes]

I work with something totally different than art on a daily basis. It's stressful at times, it's a lot of overtime in the worst seasons, it's a HUGE load to get known with just what you need to have the job and function and being able to do what you're supposed to do. Laws, economy and whatnot. I get what will be called ok paid, I guess.

Still, I'd not go for any less if basing work on artistic skills. My artistic skills isn't up to par, but the job I have now, when I leave work, I'm off. I had to learn a whole lot of stuff, but I didn't need to use a lifetime to get good at it. When I need to adapt to something new, I get education, or at least a course, at work.

That's why drawing has been, and probably will be, a hobby for me. It's my joy, but it's also my grief. Not good enough, but it's what I love.

On the other hand... If I ever got a job in the industry... I'm afraid I'd start to hate it. And suck myself out. I've had a few jobs privately, some of them being a product of what I really love to do, others contract stuff where I have to make a certain thing. The jobs where I mostly do what I usually do is wonderful. The jobs where I have to meet certain requirements and deadline is hell.

Trying to make myself better on deadlines now, but as a 27 yrs old woman, I'll tell you, sometimes your future hopes should not be of being paid to draw, but to have it as your hobby. Today, I'll say I'd *LOVE* it if I got a job like that, but the truth is, at my current level at adapting and making deadlines, it would probably make my life a living hell.

Not to be negative or anything.... I work to get my skills up, and I hope to defy my future visions of having trouble with a job like that as the only thing to lean back on. But when it comes to the money? Hell yah! It's deserved if you get high paid, and not always worth it when getting bad pay. It can be a climb up the ladder though. At this stage, I'd not go for a job within art for less pay than what I have now where it's stressed, lotsa work at times, etc. As I am now, I have butter on my bread, milk in my fridge and beer on the table, and I can do the hell what I want artwise.

[character]

my feet smell, and so does this thread

[Sorknes]

*sniffs Char's feet and goes to Oblivion*