Into the Oubliette, an art journey with Ostrander, or...

[Ostrander]

Oh No's, Ostrander lends a hand with some arts!! *Gasp!!*

Learning about visual storytelling, composition, lighting and some other stuffs pertaining to illustration. Some other stuffs too, for seasoning! Blah blah...lets drawer!

Teacher-ish guy: Glen

Student-ish folks:
Abigbat
sony
Cyclop3000
Nerahla
Killer Napkins

I just want to point out if it's not too obvious already that I'm not a teacher (but I play one on TV!).
I hold BFA degree in Illustration and Visual Communications. I'm a designer by day and a freelancer by night. I know a few things but not everything. I'm not Ashley Wood, James Jean, or any of the artists at the top of the CA page. (insert favorite cutting/new/edge artist of the day here). I'm just a regular guy with some decent skills that likes telling stories and making stuff up, plain and simple. I can't do the work for you. I'll try and help where I think you need it most. And I will try and push what you've already got. I don't want anyone to not like what they're doing, but sometimes it's unavoidable. You never know when you may need to take a freelance job that requires you to draw the instructions for how to put a Bar-B-Q gas grill together in order to pay for the emergency room visit your kid just went to. It happens...

There's a real world out there beyond here. But I also want you to have fun, I want everyone to try and get some certain amount of pleasure out of their art regardless of the subject. Studies are one thing. They are a necessity, as are gesture drawing, foundational/constructive anatomy and figure drawing. But we aren't going to go through that here. I'm going to assume you have an understanding of the foundations already. If not there are many books and even threads here that cover those fundamentals. I'm not going to provide that in this thread. That type of study is life-long and intense. You can do it on your own time. I will be more than happy to offer suggestions of books to help you on your way. I can help you if I see you're having some trouble with your figures and poses, compositions, value and color. But I'm not going to start at the most basics. If this is a problem squeak now or forever eat your peas.

Please understand, I'm not going to be a replacement for art college/uni or an Atelier Method. I will more than likely be the equivalent of a Big Mac and Fries then a 4 course Filet Mignon dinner that art school can provide. I'm just going to pass on what I know. I'm only going to provide insight and guidance with your art. Not your hair. But also understand that my opinion is completely subjective, as is everyone else's. Nothing I say should be considered the be all end all. There are too many roads to take to reach the end and which one you choose is up to you.

With that said, I have 5 folks who I managed to sucker into this. Once we have our 1st five we'll move along. If there is no more room and you're still interested feel free to PM me, I may open it up to 5 more after I see how the 1st project goes. I will come up with a lesson plan in the next few days and post the 1st lesson Sunday night-ish Nov. 4. The lessons will be 2 weeks each. One week for pencils/value/composition and working out all the problems related to your image and the 2nd week will be the "finish it" week.

Introductions should be made here. Name, age, art experience, etc.
Post your 3 best pics and explain what you would like to get out of the course.

Lets have some fun!
Glen

[sony]

Hi Glen,

I am Yahya, 25 and have done masters in multimedia arts.did my bachelors in computer science, i have been drawing even in my pure computer theory based classes. I was a kind of self taught before going to an art college. Currently working in an animation studio. Mostly work for 3d Architectural visualizations.

Things I think about my work
Would love to learn about the visual storytelling, i know i am really really bad at it. I can manage colors if i have to choose 3 to 4 for designing and stuff. I can compose things in an interesting manner[pleasing to eyes]. I do get stuck in forcing a design under given points. I am bad at expressions, when i draw characters they look dead:nohope:

Samples

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/COLORS/PAINTED_GUITAR.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/CHARACTER_DESIGN/potrait.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/COLORS/DUBAI.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/CHARACTER_DESIGN/CHARACTER_DESIGN_15.jpg

I liked the word Oubliette[a secret dungeon with an opening only in the ceiling, as in certain old castles.]

let the fun begin
:rendered:

[Nerahla]

So yay! I got in the last spot! I am so happy!

Alright, so about me:

I'm 34, married to a great husband for the past 12 years with 3 kids and two years ago, this month in fact, I decided I wanted to learn to draw and paint. I had done ZERO before then. What I had done all my life was try to find the right path to channel this... something... inside me. Tried acting, writing, screenwriting, graphic design and then finally it occurred to me that I wanted to create all these images I was always admiring.

I was one of those kids that drew and drew and drew ALL THE TIME as a kid - but around 8-10 years old, when the left brain kicks in, and you start realizing 'gee, that doesn't look like a bird' so you start trying to draw a real looking bird and it goes so badly and I quit. But I never wanted to.

Anyway so yeah, it's been two years and lots and LOTS of reading. I took 1 community college course (Drawing 101) in Jan-May 06. I've scoured and scoured the forums here and on CGtalk - acquired numerous friends who've helped me learn and one really close friend who has helped me a ton. I've recently just completed a class at Schoolism.com with Bobby Chiu - Digital Painting - and I think I learned quite a bit (in fact one of my samples is the final piece submitted for that class - lineart for the creature only by Bobby, the rest was drawn/painted by me)

So I've done the best that I can with what limited time/location I've got. I am willing to do whatever it takes, save ignoring my family, to get better.

What I am looking for is eventually - a career in illustration/book covers/TCG cards. What I really need help on are (obviously) anatomy - but that's well mended by more practice on my part -- and MOSTLY, learning to be more creative with my design - i.e. the details. The little touches. The /stuff/ in the painting. I am decent with the broad strokes. Breaking the whole thing down and adding final touches I am /terrible/ at. Costuming, items, stuff, adornments, decor, accessories, you name it, I can't think of it. Or if I think of it, I suck at detailing it.

Anyway enough JABBER. :)

Here are some samples but please please look at the whole gallery too (http://picasaweb.google.com/lizzieb.art/Illustrations) to get a real idea of where I am at.

[Cyclop3000]

Ok, my turn. First thanks much Glen for the help you are about to give us, that's amazing! And nice meeting you fellow student-ish folks ;)

Name's Stephane, I am 32, husband to a wonderful wife and father of 2 lovely kids. I live in Canada, near Montreal. I've been doodling and painting since I was a kid, but never really studied in art, just self-taught...the result is a definite passion for art and a fair amount of experience, but I lack the more technical and subtle aspects. Technical, I try to learn from books and videos...that's the easy part. What's hard to learn are the subtleties...which, I think, only a mentor or fellow artist can help you understand. So here I am!

Lightning, composition, values, colors...those are things that I need to work on. I can reproduce pretty much anything, at any size. That's easy. I've done a lot, from small to wall-size paintings. I have original art, of course, but it doesn't come easy. Trial and error. So I end up with a ton of unfinished drawings because I don't feel they are right. But there are some good examples of my work, believe it or not hehe... So far i've used oils, watercolors, and ink...did a lot of comic-type drawings in pencil and ink at one point. Lately I've also used Photoshop, I find it's a good alternative to painting with usual mediums...it's quicker, easier, and more forgiving. Very good for learning :)

My goals related to art? Get better, lots better, being able to practice something I love doing, and maybe one day get paid for doing it...so this way I can afford even more time for my art :)

I am fed up of the burgers, time to have a taste of the 4 course Filet Mignon dinner !!!

[Killer Napkins]

Well .. Im glad i found someone that can help me out... I don't know much about illustration and how one goes about creating an illustration...

my name is Jason Im 20 and im in my 3rd year of my Fine art Major at FLo-Valley Community College.. and I plan on transferring to somewhere awesome in the Fall (lookign toward Ringling, SVA, or SFAI), but, I'm looking to transfer into an Illustration Major... I really havent took any illustration courses at my school cuz in my opinion... our illustration courses are quite weak... and our Fine arts is amazing ... anyhoo...

my goals to get out of this... I just want someone to challenge me.. teeach me some techniques and learn about how to become an illustrator... basically prepare me for when im outta school somewhat.. anything thatll challenge me will just be awesome... Im also interested learning some digital paitning and lighting techniques... i have had trouble with lighting and color when it comes to that... but anyhoo... . here is a few things ive done...

[abigbat]

Hello guys, I'm Paul, I'm 21 years of age and I'm looking at becoming a professional illustrator/concept artist. I graduated Dundee University with a BA Hons in Animation this summer but swiftly came to the conclusion that I prefered the design and concept aspect of my work, so while I will certainly keep up with my animation work I really want to push a career in that area.

Artistically I came from a traditional painting background studying at school and then recently discovered the wonderful world of digital art. I now work in a combination of Painter X and Photoshop CS3 and love the freedom it offers me. As for my goals, I hope to become more proficient in every aspect of my work so that I may produce a varied and attractive portfolio. I haven't really tried my hand at much environment painting and I think that is an area I will have to focus on.

I'd like to say a big thanks to Ostrander for setting this thread up and hello to all my fellow "classmates", I'm greatly looking forward to working with you and seeing what we all produce!

[Ostrander]

Great to have you guys on board! Just to make sure, does everyone have either photoshop or painter?

[Cyclop3000]

Yup, I do. All ready for first assignment :)

[sony]

HI all, yes i have access to both painter™ photoshop©.

[Nerahla]

Yep. Photoshop here, I have the Painter Demo but I can't make heads or tails of it hehe

[Killer Napkins]

yep.. i only have photoshop.. i need to get my hands on that painter program

[abigbat]

I do indeed, I use CS3 and X respectively

[Ostrander]

Project #1: The Three Billy Goats Gruff
Create a classic interpretation or a modern retelling. The choice is yours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Billy_Goats_Gruff
This illustration exercise is to get you to think about character interaction and expression
and drawing the viewer into the scene. How can you convey what you want with a single image?
The result should be a satisfying illustration worth adding to your portfolio.


Week 1:
Thumbnails/ Brainstorming:
10-12 thumbnails horizontal or vertical. Post all for review on Monday.
Thumbnail enlargement and sketch revision process (I'll post with pics)
Finished line drawing for review and critique. (due Wednesday)
Value study comps to determine light source. (due Saturday)
Critiques/paint overs/comments will be posted back to you on Sunday.
Week 2:
Color studies (small thumbnails of your finished line and value studies to be colored) 2 or 3 to determine best color scheme (due Tuesday for review)
Go over techniques for coloring gray scale images.( I'll post links and pics on Wednesday)
Finish color illustration to be due on Saturday for review/critiques posted Sunday.
New project posted Sunday night.

This is a first run lesson plan, hopefully it will work out. This is all new for me so I'm sure there will be some bumps along the way. I'm guessing that you'll need to put a minimum of at least 6 hours of work in each week. I hope you can all manage that. I realize that you all have a life outside of here, as do I. So we'll see how things go. I really would like to see you all get some nice work out of this to add to your portfolios. If any of you have any questions or anything let me know in the thread or by PM. Either is fine.
Have fun!

Best,
Glen


***Anyone who has PM'd outside of these 5 people I'm mentoring at the moment can follow along, just please refrain from posting in the thread. If you would like to follow along you can post in your SB and send me a PM and I will gladly stop by and crit.***

[sony]

Hi, I was out of station for meeting with the client, anyway i did got some and did some sketches , thumbs, i thought about the happening in the illustration.i am stuck with more variety in the thumbs and need c&c, am i on right track for illustration?


DAY 1

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/thumbs-sony-day1.jpg

[Ostrander]

Hey Sony, you're on the right track. Keep plugging away. Try some ideas in a vertical format as well as horizontal. Think about if you want to focus on the characters and make the image more cropped in on the goats and the troll, or do you want to show more of a scene? These are choices that you should be thinking about when working up your thumbnails. The thumbnail stage should be very general and quick. Ideally, you should be able to get through this stage within an hour. When you have all of your thumbnails, number them and post them up and we can discuss which has the potential of being a strong illustration and we'll move on to step 2 tomorrow.

[Nerahla]

Oh god, I am so sorry my sketching is UTTER CRAP. I don't sketch well at all, I'm /very sorry/. However, thumbs are just for the general plumbing the depths of ideas, so that's what I tried to do.

[Ostrander]

No problem! This is the idea behind the thumbnailing brainstorming step. Just to get the general in place and the ideas out on the page. :)

[Ostrander]

Remember, you're the director, the cameraman, the lighting director, the visual effects wizards all rolled into one. You have an unlimited budget. You picked the cast, the location. How dramatic is this scene? Is it comical? Terrifying? It's all up to you. Look at your thumbnails and think about what it might look like if you turned the camera around or swung it out and placed it low along the ground. Or up from above at a slight angle? How does this improve your scene? Can you still see that characters? Does it make your image more powerful? It's important to think about these things in the thumbnail stage. If you see something you don't like in one, move on. If you see several things in a few that you like, combine them. Don't settle. The point is to keep thinking and get those creative juices flowing. To not be satisfied with the first thing that comes to mind and to push your ideas. I'll check back with you all in the morning, hopefully everyone will post all the thumbnails they can so we can move along to deciding which thumbnails would be worth taking to a sketch level.
Keep it up guys, remember you'll only get out of this what you're willing to put in. If there's issues with time (or time zones for that matter), let me know. Nothing's written in stone, but I can't hold up the people who are participating on time.

Best,
Glen

[Cyclop3000]

Alright, here are my thumbs. I do have to say that it was a little tight scheduled for me, with the kids et all. But hey, I made it! At first I was not sure if you were expecting just very fast sketches, or an actual beginning of a drawing...so some of the thumbs have more details. As I read you last couple posts, I figured you were only aiming for composition, and not details, so I used my usual method for composition..."shapy" characters :)

Discuss !

[Ostrander]

Hey gang,
Would you all be more comfortable making this project a 3 week experience?
Week 1 would be working on thumbnails and developing a sketch.
Week 2 would be a finished line drawing with values.
Week 3 would be the final week for rendering.

I'm open to suggestions, or are you all OK with the time frame?
My point being is I would rather take more time to make sure in the end you walk away with a successful image. Let me know your thoughts.


Best,
Glen

[sony]

now i got it, thanks Glen[portal] . i did more thumbnails, i think i got stuck with A4 paper layout will try more variety in carves sizes.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/thumbs1.jpg

[Nerahla]

I am perfectly fine with a two week assignment :) But I'm a stay at home Mom with plenty of time, so. Whatever works for most is fine with me :)

[Cyclop3000]

Ostrander, you are the Master Jedi here. But since you ask for our opinion...

I do think that 3 weeks would be better, especially with 5 of us mentees. I am not sure what the next step is, do we wait for your comments/feedback, or do we keep going on our own? From your assignment post I was under the impression that you were going to comment each of our thumbs. It's already Tuesday night and the "Thumbnail enlargement and sketch revision process (I'll post with pics)", and "Finished line drawing for review and critique. (due Wednesday)" are not yet started.

So yep, if you ask me I think we need more time. But hey it's ok, time is good. As you said, better take our time and make the most out of this opportunity for mentoring! Oh and I can't wait for critique and details on the next part of the assignment...:confident

Thanks!

[Killer Napkins]

well heres my thumbs... umm 2 weeks or 3 weeks ... eitehr or... time is good..

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/KillerNapkins/bggthumbs.jpg

[abigbat]

Three weeks would be better for me, I'm currently working on two design projects and two illustrations :s

I shall have my thumbs up by friday, I hope that's alright. Cheers

[Ostrander]

Ok guys, I'm going to go with the 3 weeks as it's more realistic in terms of my schedule.
I'm going to make a few suggestions right now to each of you for you to move on to a more refined sketch.
Here are some comments for each of you so far. I may add to these comments throughout the day so check back.
Review my comments, pick one and flesh it out.


Nerahla-
I like what's going on in a few of your thumbs.
234869

Cyc3000- I'd play round with the ideas in my comments.
234870

Sony-
Keep working on some more ideas.
234871

Killer Napkins- Try coming up with something based on my comments.
234872

I will post up the thumbnail to sketch process when I get home. Thanks for your patience.

Best,
Glen

[Cyclop3000]

Not fair, it looks so simple to you ;) You are right my environments are kindof static, too parallel...

Alright great comments, thanks a lot. I will re-work a few tonight and tomorrow!

[chaosrocks]

hehehe--- poacher sneaking in ..but I claim executive priveledge. This is a great project. i am greatly enjoying watching the whole process. Keep at it guys. With Glen's help you might just end up leveling up with your art. Good work
Chaos

[Nerahla]

I totally hope so Chaos :D

Ostrander!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH MAH GOD!

What you did to my thumb is like EXACTLY what I WANT to do, and yet for some reason, CANNOT. So when I saw this, I was like YES!! Then I felt like crap instantly because I can't seem to come up with dynamic scenes myself. Is it really just a matter of practice? I hope so.

I'd LOVE to run with this one, it really feels like what I WANTED to draw but couldn't -- but really this more dynamic concept is your thumb. What should I do?

[Ostrander]

Chaos, you're too nice.:bashful:
Nerahla- It will take some practice. You'll need to imagine what you're seeing and be able to visualize it from a different perspective. Don't be afraid to fail. Ever. Failing at this stage is what you want in a sense. Get those bad/awkward/obvious ideas out on the page. It's all about thinking at this stage, visualizing, mapping out what you want to do/show. It's OK if its sloppy or unrefined. That doesn't matter. It's all about your idea. Doing what you did was fine. It got the idea out. As an example, all I did was take what you had done and turned the camera a bit and tweaked the perspective. It will still take practice, I'm not saying this comes easy, there will be more bad ideas than good, but you need to just keep at it. The more you do it the more you'll develop an eye for what you're doing. I'm fine with you moving on to a sketch from here with the revised thumbnail.

I'll post the thumb to sketch tutorial in a little bit.

Good Luck!

Best,
Glen

[Ostrander]

Here's a process I use quite often when I work.
You can also get some of this stuff done if you have access to a photocopier as well. But if you already have a scanner and a printer this is what you do.
235215
Hopefully this is a helping working method for working your thumbnail up to get it to a sketch stage. Let me know if you feel I skipped anything or if you have any questions.

Have fun!

Best,
Glen

[sony]

Hi Glen, heres an update, i thought of presenting big billy goat as captain billy or some interesting name to be chosen:blahblah: , is this idea good? I have been think about the elements of stories and i think a fighting scene b/w billy an troll represent undetermined situation and motives the viewer to read about the story. should this illustration be concluding or open ended[many possibles] from viewers point of view.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/fighting_thumb1.jpg

[Ostrander]

I think a fight scene would be cool. Try this idea but play with moving the camera around like mentioned before. Try a few more thumbnails to really work the idea out. I think you'll be on your way soon. :)

[Cyclop3000]

Ok Ostrander, thanks for the how-to. I was thinking of going in traditional mode for the next step, but might become difficult in that week where we will work values, etc... What do you think? Would you recommend sticking to my Intuos for the future assignments?

I think I might be a little more comfortable working traditionally, Photoshop is still intimidating me. Speaking of Photoshop, I do have a couple questions. I realize you are not here to teach us how to use the software, but still i'd like an answer from a "live" person, and not a book which I have plenty already.

Why a "Multiply" layer, and not just a regular layer, and why an oval brush? Personally so far i've not seen any benefits from brushes other than the usual round, dynamic brush. What is it about oval that you prefer?

Thanks for the info.

[Ostrander]

Stephane,
If you'd like to work traditionally thats fine, I have no problem with that.
The choice is up to you. But don't be afraid to challenge yourself with the software either.
Using a multiply layer allows you to still be able to see your line art without messing it up. As far as an oval brush goes, i like it for it's thin to thick look that you can get. It's just a personal preference. There is no best way.

[Cyclop3000]

Alright, I know what you mean. I will definitely not let Photoshop win, I have to tame the beast hehe. I just love my lightbox and wanted to use it...so I might just try both ways, might also help see in which area I can improve in Photoshop.

I have a couple more questions...In regards to timelines, if I understand well you expect us to have a complete sketch ready by the end of the week? Or weekend? Sorry I'm a little lost timeline-wise. I need to be put back on the right track...

And I have a question concerning sketches. From the thumbnails we've seen, what level of detail do you expect in a sketch like this? I am used to work with inks, no colors, and used to ass a lot of details. So I have a hard time gaging the level of detail and amount of work that should, in general, go into a thumbnail (now i know ;)), a sketch and a line drawing...for which we know we will add values and maybe colors. Do you have any advice on this? Any examples of these steps to show us? Thumb vs. sketch, sketch vs. final line drawing. Does that make any sense? hehe

Thanks!

[Ostrander]

There's no right or wrong here, if you want to use the lightbox by all means do so. Thats what I do. (sometimes I don't though to save a step) It's really whatever you're comfortable with. I just felt that it's important to show that there's no "one" way. But hey, here's a good way to move to a sketch. A part of me wasn't sure if you all needed to know the steps from Thumbnail to sketch. But I figured it couldn't hurt to show you. When I have a nice line drawing after going over my sketch with the lightbox, I'll scan it in again and then do value studies in photoshop. But if you want to use marker, or pencil thats fine too. You should never feel trapped to using any one tool, or obligated. They are all just a means to an end. Some ways are faster than others but there's also a level of comfort everyone needs to contend with. But at this stage you should be just getting your thumbnail up to working size that you'll then create a nice sketch from.
So we are starting to move from the general to a more refined stage. Where the thumbnail stage represented very general shapes and ideas to a more refined and understandable image. At the sketch stage we should be able to start making out what is going on in your image. Things, should start to be coming into focus for the viewer. You don't need to add value yet, I'm just looking for a solid sketch.

With that said, how's everyone else coming along so far? Will you all be able to get a "to size" sketch done come Sunday? This doesn't have to be finished line art but should be that sketch that falls between the thumbnail and finished line. That way we can use next week to go over any drawing issues and fix any problems you may be encountering as well.

Best,
Glen

[sony]

i will have mine :pirate: ; on sunday

i did some rough texture strokes for different compositions. i am bit stuck with the variety of composition [fighting scene - Captain Billy]
here they are, do you find any thumb interesting

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/compsitions-fighting6-1.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/compsitions-fighting1-1.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/compsitions-fighting2-1.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/compsitions-fighting3-1.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/compsitions-fighting4-1.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/compsitions-fighting5-1.jpg

[Nerahla]

I have a sketch, all I need to do is draw the Troll, which is incredibly hard, since my drawing skills really suck, so I've decided to thinkthinkthink about it before I start drawing, and decide exactly what I want him to be doing, etc.

I will definitely have the full sketch done by Sunday - but I am going to the Ren Faire tomorrow! :D

[abigbat]

I will have stuff to post tomorrow night, again I must apologize but I've been extremely busy this week and really haven't had a moment to sit down and work on this. I'm working tomorrow but will dedicate my evening to posting thumbs and have a lineart ready on Sunday.

[Ostrander]

Sony- I like the 2nd and the 4th.
Nerahla- Sounds good, have a drumstick on me.:P
abigbat- looking forward to seeing what you have cooking.

[abigbat]

Well here are a few of my thoughts so far. I had scribbled a whole load of stuff on the coach during the week but decided to bash out a few newer roughs and a few other bits and bobs tonight once I got home from work.

I went to visit a couple of bridges and took photos for reference because this is how I usually start on a new project. I threw together three quick test paintings because I find that it helps me to throw down an image which I will later use as reference.

For the bridge design I reckon I will use an angle similar to the third image. I want the image to focus on the troll interacting with the third Billy goat whom he has just dragged into his lair under the bridge. In my version of the tale Mr troll was not particularly interested in the Billy goat's sob stories and decided to eat them all -I'm going for a dark take on the classic story because it used to scare the hell out of me as a kid!

[Ostrander]

Love it, can't wait to see the sketch. :rendered:

[abigbat]

Splendid, well I'll be working on it tomorrow morning because I'm far too tired to do anything else tonight! Glad you like :)

[Nerahla]

Oh man, abigat's troll is so good I can't even show mine :/ It's too embarassing.


I've /never/ conceived of a non-human character before. This is hard :/

I finished another piece that I had begun before the mentoring started. It's in my SB (link in my sig), as absolutely nothing I've ever done warrants being put in the FF section.

[abigbat]

Well then why not base your character on a human and then play with it? For example sketch a human character and then experiment with stretching and moving features, adjusting anatomy and so on? A typical troll design might have a long nose, small beady eyes, a big mouth, high shoulders... Playing with the basic forms can dramatically change your character.

Why not get someone you know to hunch over and pose for you, use that as a reference point and experiment a bit!

[Nerahla]

Oh I've done a sketch, and that's precisely what I did. But it's awful of course. Drawing is not my thing.

[Cyclop3000]

Hey Nerahla, I don't think you should worry about this. This is why we are here, to get mentored and learn. You need to be thought something in order to know it...it's that simple.

As for abigbat's drawings, thumbs up buddy. But I think that means he's had more practice than others, and that he probably knows a thing or two some others don't. So please don't be shy to show off what you have. abigbat is probably on a higher level of achievement in terms of concept and thumbs...higher than me anyways, we are all at different stages I guess. Nobody here will put your drawings down for whatever reason, and nobody should compare anything you create to any other's work. If they do, then they don't belong here. It's hard not to compare our drawings with others, but I don't think it's the point of this mentoring, you gotta try and go above that.

I was once told that drawing is 10% talent, and 90% practice...and I believe it's most definitely true. I'm no expert, but I already see change and improvement between your thumbs and your sketch. You've put Ostrander's advice to work and it paid off. So good job!! I like the windmill, I think it's a great idea ;)

[Ostrander]

You guys rock! I think it's great that you are providing each other with support.
It makes this thread ten times better.

Nerahla- Here's a link (http://users.skynet.be/fa023784/trollmoon/TrollArtistsBlog/trollartistsblog.html) to some useful troll ideas.
Keep plugging away and don't be afraid, you won't learn if you don't make mistakes.

[Nerahla]

Thanks guys :) I'm sorry, I tend to wallow a bit. I vocalize it to get it out. Thanks for the support. I will try not to whine in the future =)

That link was golden Ostrander, it really got my mind moving a bit. I really don't have a hard time coming up with ideas (who does really) it's the practical application of getting him drawn the way I see it or want to see it... ya know?

and I should should should practice more. I don't do it enough!

I will work something out tomorrow and try and come up with a better troll. :)

[sony]

hey nerahla, i think your illustration is really going fine, but there is no flow for eyes to travel on your illustration, every object is standing still, they should be interaction with each other. bring things closer in your illustration.

[abigbat]

Hey Nerahla, I actually rather like that troll you created - the more humanoid a creature the scarier it can be! Grab some paper and scribble some trolls all over it and then post whatever you have, we're all here to learn and everyone on this thread is super nice so you'll get good crit!

Why don't we have a troll design day or something in this so we can all sketch lots of things and compare each others designs and help each other that way? I can't wait to see the different ways everyone portrays the troll (I love drawing monsters haha)!

[sony]

Paul [abigbat]: Nice suggestion - That will great.

Heres an update from my side, need c&c. I have just work on the composition and the fighting postures of the characters [Captain billy and troll]. will be designing the costumes. its just the base for the sketch.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/sketchs2-web.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/sketchs1-web.jpg

[abigbat]

Sony I love the dynamism in that first image! One suggestion, perhaps you should make the troll bigger to suggest that the odds are against the goat? I love the poses and the last pencil sketch is excellent too, I like how you rendered it.

[Nerahla]

Hey thanks guys :) I like the Troll Day idea too. We'll see what I can come up with today - though I woke up feeling not so inspired, haha so we'll see.

[Nerahla]

Okay I did a little bit today. Please understand, I have never done this before - all I've ever practiced was humans and inanimate objects. Anyway, I'm trying :)

I really am a much better painter than draughtsman, but I understand that to be a good illustrator I need the drawing skills. Believe me, I understand... this knowledge causes me more grief than you can possibly imagine, as the painting part comes far more intuitively to me.

Anyway, here is what I did today. Pencil in mah sketchbook!

[sony]

Paul [abigbat]: thanks for liking. will try the size - proportions of the troll and Captain Billy.

TROLL
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/troll1-web.jpg
CAPTAIN BILLY
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/captainbilly-web.jpg

Nerahla: Hey nice trolls, i think you are getting stuck in designing the look of the troll. write down some of the elements for your troll to get more clarity about drawing them.

[Ostrander]: Hi Glen, waiting for your feed backs on the last thumb for detail sketch and now these some designs .:lens:

Jason Killer Napkin: Hey where are you?:teeth:

[Ostrander]

:SI'm under the weather folks.:x Hang in there gang and keep working on your sketches. Remember, you'll only get out of this what you put in.
Those who posted have good starts. I'll try and post some individual comments later today when I'm feeling up to it. As a suggestion, draw your backgrounds first without any characters in the image and nail everything down that isn't character related. Then use some tracing paper to create an overlay and draw in where your characters should go. It's an easier way to work on your characters, their placement and the relationships that they share with the background environment. You also will find it easier to erase/fix anything wrong with your characters without harming the background. And vice versa.

[Cyclop3000]

Hey there Ostrander. I've been busy with work and life in the past few days, so I got behind with my sketching. But i'm working on it, should be up soon. Quite frankly I find that I have a hard time producing a new sketch after i've seen the alterations you made to mine.

Somehow I just can't get your depiction of my ideas from my head, and everything I draw just looks like that thumb you did when reviewing my thumbs. Any tricks to get rid of this problem? LOL I'd like to produce my own sketch, don't want to just start back from your thumb... I feel pretty stupid, not being able to get rid of this image, everything I draw seems to relate to that thumb, or otherwise it's not appealing to my eye.

Anyways, i'll get through this I guess, and then i'll post that sketch here ASAP. Thanks!

[sony]

Hey guys, whats up where are you people?


I did some perspective studies heres the link
PERSPECTIVE STUDY FROM FORM LESSONS (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1525692&postcount=25)


Heres an update, background plate in the illustration [with out the characters]. i will be uploading the houses models to be placed there in a while still working on it. meanwhile :teeth:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/BGlayout-1.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/BGlayout.jpg

[sony]

hey gang where are you? please post what ever you have with you, so that we get a critique on it:\ :\ :\

[Nerahla]

I think Ostrander's sick, so I was kinda waiting til I heard from him again. I haven't gotten much further with my sketch, mostly because I've been so crazy busy. I will work on it tomorrow and post it up :)

I also have to work on LMS entry! OMGZ!

[Ostrander]

Hi Folks,
Sorry for the delay. After being sick last week, I've been trying to catch up like hell on work and freelance. I know, I know...sorry excuse but hey thats all I have. Hopefully there's still some interest... If you want to bail thats cool, if you want to hang thats cool too. I don't get paid to do this stuff, and neither do you. So no one should feel obligated. If you want to do the work that's great, more power to ya. And it looks like some of you are. That's awesome.
I didn't think it through enough regarding the time it would take to jugglework, freelance, family and life in general along with this stuff so bare with me. Hopefully those of you who are still interested will hang in there and pull through on this illustration. But it's not a competition, it's just a learning experience. I don't have any prizes to hand out. Just advice. I'll help where you guys want, but like I said in the beginning I can't do it for you. I also understand there's a lot going on right now with the holidays coming up and LMS3 and the Workshop. Anywho...with that said...
I'll make a couple comments and then I gotta get back to work.

Nerahla- I like what you have started. I would try and work on the composition a little more. All of your hills are the same height and you lose depth as well as interest within the picture. It becomes very stagnant. Try varying the hill heights with the closest hills being taller and then each hill thereafter smaller to give a sense of depth. Also, don't be afraid to give the structures like the windmill and the bridge more life with your drawing. Who's to say that the bridge can't curve a little. Does it need to be straight and ridged? Does the main building of the windmill need to be straight and ridged or can it bend a little? You can still make a believable and fun image by taking artistic license to a certain degree. The image doesn't need to be a realistic interpretation. Try and play with size relationships of the troll and the goat as well. Remember too that you can go right over what you have in photoshop or with some tracing paper and pencil and rework what isn't working until it does work.
243772

Sony- I know you've been really trying with this and your going about it the right way with studies. That's great. You just need to bring it together into a solid, well defined image. I like the perspective studies, but something to consider is how you're going to draw your viewers eye through your image. When you use a strong 2 point perspective like you have in your studies there's a tendency that that becomes dominant to the viewer and your not giving the viewers eyes places of interest for them to rest. Something I like to do is take a separate layer or a scrap of paper and make a vertical or horizontal cut out, like a window and place it over my sketches turning it and flipping it to see what looks the most interesting. I still really like that sketch you had of the goat flying through the air. There was a good deal of energy in that that's missing in some of your other stuff. But I don't want to dissuade you, you're on the right track in terms of fleshing out characters and thats really good. Just bring it home now. Show me a finished sketch and we'll work from there. If we need to pull stuff out we can, we can add stuff too. I'm ready to see that solid image.


To the other guys- Post what you have this Sunday if you're still interested in the project. Otherwise I gotta move on.:yayca:


Best regards,
Glen

[abigbat]

Hey guys! I've been busy as hell the last week - I've been working on my illustration/animation showreel, buying my website and hosting as well as working on a design for the Aberdeen ski competition team... Basically I haven't had a spare second. Ostrander - I will post something on Sunday, perhaps lineart, perhaps values as well, depends what I get done.

If anyone is interested in seeing my reel by the way it should be online in an hour or so, my website www.paulscottcanavan.com currently links to my deviantart page until I have time to make a website, so check that this evening!

Until Sunday then - take care all! :yayca:

[Nerahla]

Alrighty well here is a reworked sketch I did a couple days ago. I don't really want to go all super fantasy/cartoon actually, so i didn't wonk out the windmill intentionally. I just exaggerated some things.

[Ostrander]

Hi Liz,
If you feel comfortable enough to move on to a value study on this go right ahead. If you have any questions you want to address regarding creating a value study in photoshop, go ahead and post in the thread and I will try and help you. In the meantime here is an excellent link to a tutorial by Stephen Stahlberg (http://www.androidblues.com/JealousyStepbystep/jealousystep.html) to help get you started.

[Nerahla]

I LOVE working in B&W -- so you want me to completely render it all up like the tutorial did? I don't mind doing a color layer wash. I usually just start painting with color (middle tones first, etc) but I totally would dig rocking this out in B&W first. I love me some grayscale haha :)

[Ostrander]

Black and white only at this stage. Just like the tutorial but without the color. A nice solid value structure 1st and we'll save the color for next week.

[sony]

Hi Glen and gang, i hope you all are fine!

Glen: best of luck with your LMS3

i got the line art separately
1-background
2-characters in action

Nerahla: best of luck with your LMS3 :yayca: as far your Billy goats, you are going good.

waiting for your feed back

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/alltogether-lineart-web.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/finalposture-lineart-web.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/BGlayout-1-web.jpg
ROUGH SKETCH
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/finalposture-rough-web.jpg

[Ostrander]

Hi Yahya,
It's a fun take, I like it! Because you have some really strong perspective going on as well as a strong horizontal frame of reference, I made some adjustments to try and bring the composition in a bit with some cropping and focus on the characters a bit more.
Straight lines have a tendency to be a very powerful and dynamic design element, which can be found in strong perspective drawing like you have going on here. The idea here is to soften those dynamic elements and bring the focus back in on the characters without losing the charm of the background. I've also indicated more trees and shrubs as well as a mountain range for interest. I hope you don't mind. It will help fill out and break up some of the negative space you had in your image.
The curves ( in the clouds and the bridge as well as some of the landscape) are used here as a design element to help move the viewers eye into the picture in a sweeping motion. This can be further enhanced when you move to the value stage and render the characters which I think you're almost ready for. :) Good Job!
249782


Thanks for your well wishes of luck in LMS3! I'm gonna need it.
It should be fun though.

Best,
Glen

[sony]

Glen: Wow, that was awesome what has you done to this. It has the right focus back into the action. I was really worried about it that it had not that flow and eye movement every thing was there standing still,

and I will get it done by 2moro and post it to start for values. I am so happy :rocker:

thanks dear!:hugsmile:

[abigbat]

Okay! Here goes. I've been thinking about the setting of my piece and I'm continuing with the dark theme focusing on the troll. The character of the beast is highly important, and so I have decided to paint him taunting one of the goats (off camera) with the body of his fallen brother - how pleasant.

Because the troll is the center point of this painting he's positioned close to the camera and slightly to the right, we can see the end of the bridge slightly in the distance. The light sources will naturally be both ends of the bridge; the one we can't see will highlight the troll enough to make him scary while the one we can helps to explain the setting. The whole piece will be pretty dark but the light bouncing off the water will be fun to paint and I think these light sources will reveal enough while still casting some mystery over what's going on. Also note I made the bridge much larger - if a nasty beast like a troll is going to live there he probably needs a bit of space!

Here are some rough lines and a quick value scribble more to explain the light sources than anything else. Looking forward to getting some feedback!

*EDIT* I just realized my troll looks like the predator! I wasn't concentrating on facial detail when I scribbled this, obviously it will look different in the final piece haha!

[Nerahla]

Wow guys those look fantastic! Such awesome concepts compared to my very tranquil one. I guess I'm just lacking in the interesting thoughts department. When I imagine scenes, I always imagine them very still and sparse -- even when I am imagining books that I'm reading.. I never imagine anything so exciting!

It' something I'm going to have to think about, that's for sure.

I knew what you meant by just grayscale Ostrander. I was only talking about the step ahead, per the Stahlberg tutorial -- i.e. rendering out fully in grayscale and /eventually/ doing a color wash.

As it stands, I haven't rendered anything out yet, and just did a simple value study.

[sony]

ABIGBAT: its a nice idea, but very tricky, put more aggression in trolls attitude, just a suggestion try placing another bigger billy goat at the end of the tunnel [bridge]


edit;
Just took some time off from billy stuff
sorry for that!:geekg:

[Ostrander]

Paul- I like what you have going on. I'd like to suggest the revisions I've made in the attachment below. I think that you have a really good idea, but I'd like to see you push it a bit more. Since it will be a more close view/character type piece it's important to not detract from that so I exaggerated the size of the troll to give him more added presence in the piece. I also enlarged the end of the tunnel to remove some of the negative space you had, hopefully it adds just the right balance and will keep the viewers eye moving. I quickly used the warp and transform tools to get the right size relationships. Sorry for it looking so hacked.
250483
I also want to mention that Yahya's comment about maybe adding a goat to the end of the tunnel would be a nice idea. It could add just enough tension if we see the largest of the billy goats in silhouette. Leaving the viewer to guess how this will end. It could make for an exciting narrative. Good job!

Liz It's a good start to your value study.
After looking at your piece for a little while, and based on what you have going on in the value study. I felt your image needed something. Whenever you're working on something and you feel it's just not working out, or something is wrong, you should try flipping the image and see if it becomes more exciting visually. That's something I've done here is flipped your image. And I noticed after doing so it tends to read better. (I've also tried to break the image down to the basic information based on shapes and value) Now that the image is flipped, you'll notice that your eye will come in from upper left (similar to that like when you're reading a book) around the windmill down through the troll and then to the goat. However, since the goat is cropped off and out of frame slightly, the eye tends to want to leave the page. So how do you draw the eye back in? I've added a vertical design element in the shape of some tall narrow trees. It not only adds interest to the image but because they act as arrows essentially the bring the eye back. I've also added a fence near the windmill to add interest and emphasize the direction the eye should move down to/through the troll. The bridge then leads you to the goat. But now that you have those triangle shapes, which even though they are small, sub-ordinant accents, being triangles they a powerful design device in composition and should aid in bringing your eye back into the picture.
250521

On a side note regarding your comment about lack of excitement in your image. A lot can be said for an image that at first glance may seem calm and tranquil, but after closer inspection show's a strong narrative that really makes the viewer look instead of presenting everything all at once.:yum:

Wow, I talk too much. Ok... that's all I got.

As a final note. Please refrain from posting images not related to the topic/project at hand. If you'd like me or anyone here to see something else you're working on please use a link to the image in your sketchbook as opposed to placing the actual image in this thread. Thanks! :) (Not trying to be a jerk Yahya, I'd just like a focused thread:))

Best,
Glen

[Nerahla]

Wow Ostrander! I just totally get what you mean about flipping the image. I hadn't tried it with this, but I did the same to my LMS entry and to the same effect, it made it better! So I understand what you mean. I have NEVER done what you did with the basic shapes/values before. Wow... what an eye-opener. I love the additions -- by the way I'm sorry I didn't actually ADD the trees, I totally planned to when I painted. Talk about laziness :P But LOVE the fence idea! I suck at ideas >.>

I'll have to switch off between this and the LMS entry hehe :D Thanks so much!

[sony]

sorry glen, for posting that! :geekg:

[abigbat]

Good points Glen and Sony, I had thought about a figure at the end of the tunnel sneaking up on the troll but the issue I had was placement - if he were in the center of the light (which would look quite exciting), that would imply that the water was shallow - so why are they crossing the bridge? Actually, perhaps they thought the bridge was safer... Hmm, I shall muse upon it and upload a new image soon!

[sony]

Hi everyone,

I did the color values and the made the brushed to colorize the values. Then i noticed that i at some places i need more darks so did darken, some places go the color overlays to get more light.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/alltogether-lineart_rev1-5-colla-1.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/yahyaehsan/BILLYGOAT/alltogether-lineart_rev1-5-values.jpg