Creative writing / creative art

[Ian Mack]

I'd love to get people's thoughts on this. Let's see...how best to explain. I've heard it said that an author will be laughed out the door when he/she says that they want to illustrate their own cover. If that's true then I would have to say that the time involved in honing each craft prohibits you from learning both.

I love communicating something with an image but at the same time, I love how quickly words can build an image. I use writing to create ideas and from there I begin to draw, drawing from the ideas that were written down in the heat of inspiration.

Just because you can't master both, does this mean that as visual artists...we shouldn't bother writing? Do any of use writing as a tool in your visual toolbox?

[Seedling]

It’s as hard to be a professional-level writer as it is to be a professional-level artist, and most everyone assumes incorrectly that they can write well, which no doubt leads to embarrassing incidents for publishers. That said, good writing skills are useful in almost any field whether or not publication is involved, and there is no reason why one can't be a competent writer as well as a competent artist. All it takes is practice.

[Vhan Juju]

Yea, I agree with Seedling, I don't see any reason why a person can not only do both, but master them as well.

I think that the biggest hurtle you have to worry about is neglecting one while you focus on the other. Not bad for a week or two, but a year or two might be a little bit of a problem, eh?

[Brendan N]

Cool, glad this thread came up here.

I'm really into writing, but I haven't learned half as much about writing as I have about visual arts. I've never thought of writing as something that needs the level of practice that art requires, I've always thought of it as a form that needs more innovation from the writer's side, a lot of planning and a lot of thought invested. Thoughts on this? Am I right when I say this? Or is this completely misguided? [/hijack]

If I do manage to break into the literary field I will definitely be doing my own covers and illustration, and I think if you can pitch a good cover to the publishers and justify your choices, you won't have too much trouble going there.

[Shadowwing]

I do both.

And I know of several people who have successfully published their books, and are excellent artists in their own right.

[Grief]

makes me think of Clive Barker. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Barker)

in the mmorpg of life, he chose multiple job classes.

hacks i say.

[Moai]

I used to have three different artistic pursuits: I drew, of course, and I wrote songs and played instruments, and I wrote creatively. Nowadays, I draw a lot, play my instruments just a little bit, and write almost not at all. There really is just not enough time to do everything, for me at least. Plus, I want to make my living from visual art, so of course I'm going to spend more time on that.
There are other reasons too, though. With drawing, even if I'm not inspired or in the mood, I can usually work my way through it and still come up with something okay. When I made music, I was much more dependent on inspiration; if the ideas for the next melodies weren't coming, then there wasn't really anything I could do. And as for writing, sometimes I would be completely "on" and inspired and the words would just flow out of my fingers as if by magic. Times like that have been the most intense and pleasurable creative experiences of my life. However, the next day I'll sit down to continue my story, and the words...aren't...there!! I'll want so badly to recreate the experience of the day before, when I was writing so easily, but just getting a damn sentence out was agonizing, like pulling a tooth. Constant second guessing of whether I'd chosen the right word, writing, deleting, rewriting certain passages that just didn't want to work. So yeah, I eventually decided that it wasn't worth the frustration, and gave it up. I may return to it at some point. I don't know.
But yeah, to be very successful at either writing or visual arts, you need to know a lot. With art, you need to know how to depict light, choose the right colors and values, learn anatomy and perspective, and generally expand your visual vocabulary. With writing, you need to know a lot about people, how they act, make decisions, react to each other, chat casually, give speeches, etc. Also, you need to have lived a bit, not just so that your writing has more character or whatever, but so that you'll be more familiar with how stuff works, so you'll be able to create a better illusion of real people in a real world on your pages. The old saying, "Write what you know," is true. People, especially other writers, can tell when you don't know what you're talking about.
That was a ramble.:rolleyes:

[Ian Mack]

Maoi: I have read alot about people due to people I know in sociology. and have done some travelling(moved once a year for the past five years) so I guess that counts in my favour. Thanks for the ramble, you had some good things in there. Especially those moments of blazing inspiration, I love those periods!

Grief: Thanks for the link! Nice to see other people have done it and made movies besides! Seems like Clive n' I have a few things in common.

Shadowwing: Also good to know. Thanks Shadowwing.

Brendan N: Like Maoi said, there is alot of people out there who think they can write well. I can write well(except that I can't) but I know that my grammar sucks ass and I have no idea about narrative structure, or literary structure of any kind.

Vhan Juju: I hope to come up with methods that utilize both skills because you're right, I don't want to practice one at the expense of the other.

Seedling: You're right, it does take practice and I've been thinking of ways to combine the two. So far I'm thinking this: I'll write each day, doesn't matter what and do an illustration based on the writing. This way I'll be getting used to writing and working on my illustrative skills at the same time. I have a couple ideas for novels that I need to put together but first I have to learn more about the world they live in, and about the kind of people that my characters are so that they interact in a natural way.

Thanks for the time everyone! I agree that someone can be competent as both an artist and a writer and I hope to be that person someday.

[Seedling]

Cool. :) Something else that you can do to improve at writing is to treat every e-mail and forum post as a way to practice. Make each one shine.

[Brendan N]

, though. With drawing, even if I'm not inspired or in the mood, I can usually work my way through it and still come up with something okay. [As] for writing, sometimes I would be completely "on" and inspired and the words would just flow out of my fingers as if by magic. Times like that have been the most intense and pleasurable creative experiences of my life. However, the next day I'll sit down to continue my story, and the words...aren't...there!! I'll want so badly to recreate the experience of the day before, when I was writing so easily, but just getting a damn sentence out was agonizing, like pulling a tooth. Constant second guessing of whether I'd chosen the right word, writing, deleting, rewriting certain passages that just didn't want to work. So yeah, I eventually decided that it wasn't worth the frustration, and gave it up. I may return to it at some point. I don't know.


This is exactly why I went into visual arts rather than literary arts. Writing comes and goes here as well, and the fiery moments of knowing exactly what and how to write have been extremely enjoyable from a creative standpoint.

Ian Mack: I like (love) to think I can write and that I write well, but yes I'll have to admit that I have even more to learn over there than in visual arts. mmm, lots and lots to learn. yay :).

Seedling: haha, good idea. I've always looked optimistically at comics/graphic novels (even illustrated novels) as way to take both on at the same time. I think you get to learn a lot about both when they run parallel within a certain project.

[dbclemons]

It's unlikely you'll find a Shakespeare and Rembrandt rolled up into one person, but there are still plenty of examples of excellent writer/artists. Howard Pyle wrote several great stories. I wouldn't compare him to Herman Melville, but they were fun to read. The comix industry is full of great writer/artists, maybe not "masterful" but often what some call great are not my cup-o-tea. Tons of children's books by a single author/aritst are published as well.

[Ian Mack]

I'll start to incorporate some writing into my sketchbook so that the parallel between the two can be seen. Who knows, it'll open up a whole new world of crits since people will be able to point out information that i didn't carry from the writing to the image.

Seedling: I'm going to have change my sig then. ;)

Brendan N: We should figure out a way to do some word-art jams together? Could be fun.

dbclemons: you're right, such talent is rare. I certainly don't know of anyone that could be seen in that light. I will be great at both fields but I know I won't be the top of the pile for either. Just of those who also dabble in both. ;)

[chaosrocks]

michaelangelo wrote very good poetry

[Farvus]

I sometimes write too but I do it rarely and it's usually nothing special. Maybe you could draw comics just like other people mentioned. They need both good text and good art.

[Vhan Juju]

It puzzles me really. Ever since I have been creeping into the world of visual arts I noticed that they are not far from oral art. (I call writeing "oral art" I'm not sure why.)

There are countless links between the two, but I have never witnissed anyone sucessfully place them side-by-side (in a frame).

It always appears to me that one always seems to pull away from the outher, because you have two equal focal points, with no clear idea witch is the one you need to be looking at, and witch is more nessassary.

It makes me wonder, if there is not a way to develop a compleatley new style here. What if it was actually possible to "Paint words" while, "writeing the picture"

Drama of space, and the rythom of objects. Little Detail, and very blunt messages.

I think back on certian kinds of graffitti art I have seen.

:p you can ingore me! I'm just kinda ranting to pass the time :)

[Seedling]

There are countless links between the two, but I have never witnissed anyone sucessfully place them side-by-side (in a frame).

Try comic books, children's books, graphic design.

[Brendan N]

Try comic books, children's books, graphic design.

ditto, the two have been merged almost seamlessly before, there are many examples of how literary (not oral:)) art and visual art can compliment each other.

Ian Mack: awesome idea man, we should totally try and go there! This could make for a wonderful little project, plus there's lots to learn. mmm ... will have to drop you a pm sometime (just busy right now) and we can start looking at this thing, what d'you say?

[Darren_1989]

Hehe, I like to draw, write, play the piano, and play sports. Its my diverse interests that have kept me from getting anywhere with any of them. Lately I've trimmed down my interest in sports to just going to the gym and playing some intramural soccer, cut out the piano altogether, and only write at random when I really feel like it so I can really try to focus on drawing. There's no reason one couldn't be good at all of them if they found the time.



I'm really into writing, but I haven't learned half as much about writing as I have about visual arts. I've never thought of writing as something that needs the level of practice that art requires, I've always thought of it as a form that needs more innovation from the writer's side, a lot of planning and a lot of thought invested. Thoughts on this? Am I right when I say this? Or is this completely misguided? [/hijack]


I don't know if that is completely misguided, but definitely somewhat. The level of practice needed to be a good writer is probably equivalent. My brother is a writer and while hes got some natural gifts (he got skipped through some of the early writing courses in college), he's written and read constantly through the years. He's told me its about practice, so yeah I think it's the same for artists and writers, or musicians for that matter. I think to be great at anything really requires a pretty similar amount of practice and study.

[Brendan N]

I don't know if that is completely misguided, but definitely somewhat. The level of practice needed to be a good writer is probably equivalent. My brother is a writer and while hes got some natural gifts (he got skipped through some of the early writing courses in college), he's written and read constantly through the years. He's told me its about practice, so yeah I think it's the same for artists and writers, or musicians for that matter. I think to be great at anything really requires a pretty similar amount of practice and study.

Like I implied, I speak under correction :). I've always found it easier to write something I'm fairly satisfied with than to draw/paint something I'm fairly satisfied with, but writing has required (from me at least) a lot more engaged thinking. I don't doubt that practice does play a huge part, I've just never thought it plays as much a part as it does in visual arts. Thanks for the enlightenment :).

[Jazz]

Ian, good success with your efforts! There's awesome experience and advice about writing and doing art together. Very true that one may not have both drawing and writing rolled into one PERFECTLY, but hey, if you can do great in one part and good in the other, that's awesome in itself!

That's something I try with other interests, like multitasking. My thing is that I also try to program on the computer (I find it a contrast to anything artistic, especially if I'm writing java code. -_-), so I find that creative writing is close enough to drawing that they can be done together.

I've had to let some things slide, though. Of my favourite interests, singing and writing lyrics have been very hard to let go of. But I ended up doing so without realizing. I know now that I just can't do all this stuff at once, but I think, alternatively, writing and drawing isn't too bad at all. :D (I'm actually trying to make a comic or two, and I'd rather do it all myself. I just haven't the time right now. :( School is my interest. -_-; )

[Verdaccio]

If you want an example of someone with some commercial success in both writing and art in today's world, look to Janny Wurtz (http://www.paravia.com/JannyWurts/website/index3.html) as one example.

[jim b]

you might look into comics/graphic novels, it is the only medium where words and pictures combine to form a unique experience.
some of the best creators in comics write and draw their own stories, like frank miller, david mack, mike mignola.

[bhanu]

Hmm interesting thread,
I also need to work on my writing , as I want to tell stories thorught eh medium of comics I think its necessary to work on my diction , basics. I also used to write creatively earlier (Lyrics and stories). But after I got deep into art, I almost lost all the connection I had with writing, now that I am working on my own comic(please see thread in ff section) I am somehow finding hard to be as articulate as I want to be.SO lets start practicing guys.


always found it easier to write something I'm fairly satisfied with than to draw/paint something I'm fairly satisfied with,

I think the reason is that we dont have/know many parameters to analyse our writing.

[Brendan N]

I think the reason is that we dont have/know many parameters to analyse our writing.

I hear what you say brother, but I don't think that's the only reason. I have read a fair amount of books from various authors and in various styles. I think another problem comes in when there is so many things that go over my head when reading, and now not so much when looking at art. I don't think that, at this point, I'm capable of fully appreciating a piece of writing as I should. There is still too much I don't get, and too much that I cannot translate into my own writing.

Still, I remain optimistic about tackling (and mastering) both, and this will definitely become a major goal of mine within the next few years. Right now I need to concentrate on the visual side of things though.

[Seedling]

If you read JL’s Artistic Mastery Chart ( http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=107555) and substitute “writing” for “drawing”, and swap around a few styles and genres, it still works.

[Ian Mack]

Can't reply...must draw critters. So little time!

[SpaXe]

I agree with most of the posts above: a person can master both visual arts and literature.

I do not say that I am a master of both, but I am learning in both. In fact, I have begun a series of written articles on digital painting, if anyone is interested. It is titled "I Should Be Painting".

http://www.enchantedexplosives.com/blog/?cat=22

;) Leave me a comment if you like it. Let me know. I update bi-monthly.

[brightwater03]

Many artists are now adding a “blog” to their websites combining writing talent with artistic ability. Art and writing have much in common, both require the skill to communicate clearly, tell an interesting story or to inform or entertain. Pay attention to the basics in writing: grammar, spelling, punctuation and capitalization, just as you do when you are painting and carefully check the basics there: color, composition, center of interest, balance, texture - all the tools that contribute to creating a fine work of art. These are just tools to help one express thoughts clearly.

My favorite book on writing is by William Zinsser, ON WRITING WELL. It’s not just great advice, but an interesting read, as well.

I’m surprised at how many of the posts and comments here contain errors that could be eliminated easily if the writer would just hit Spell and Grammar Check on their computers before posting. Try typing your comment into the word processing program on your computer, just as I am now, before copying and pasting it into the forum. It will help you avoid some embarrassing writing faux pas.

I’ve just added a blog to my website and the first two entries: COLOR TRENDS FOR 2008 and ANIMATED HELPERS. You are invited to read and click on some interesting links that you may find interesting and helpful.

Dick Harrison
www.salestipsforartists.com
http://salestipsforartistscom.blogspot.com/

[Ilaekae]

I spent many years in the advertising world where words were as important as image, so I had to become an above average "writer." I know I'll never be Hemingway or Shakespeare, but as I get older, I've noticed a few things...

It's often easier for me to develop a visual image if i first write it. A complex drawing can be daunting when many many things are going on all at once, and it's easy to start to get lost in the details and forget what the hell you wanted to "say" in the first place. Words are more limiting--harder to work with--in the sense that you must grab the reader's attention and then hold it long enough for them to fully understand what you have to say. This approach usually involves putting the primary thought upfront, and then developing the scene around it as you go. The same has to be done with complex visual imagery...and becomes easier to do if you have a mental note of what you wrote reinforcing that image.

I also found that "stream of consciousness" writing helps me in my visual work, because it's easier to make connections with word/images in a rather weird manner than it is to do purely visually. An accidental misspelling or trasposition is a hell of a lot more helpful in giving me the germ of an idea than accidentally drawing six fingers on someone.

[Farvus]

I have exactly the same experience. I realised that writing helps in finding out ideas for concepts or illustrations. The stories doesn't even need to be professional. For example recently I started creating some short sci-fi novel. It's not planned but rather but rather putting down my stream of consciousness on paper. Even if I don't describe some things, still many images start to show up in my head. Later I can always read it again and the same ideas and mood come up as when I was writing it. It's still not very clear image but I'm one step closer to what I wanted to achieve :).

[eskanto]

um... i dont know if anybody mentioned this but brom writes and illustrates his own books...

[MoorDragon]

I've been a professional illustrator for a little over 30 years and have only recently tackled the idea of writing a book. I illustrated several books for David & Charles Ltd (Devon, England) so now they've given me my own book deal. I'm illustrating and art directing one book while writing, illustrating and art directing another. This puts me in the position of hiring artists to work on the book which changes one's perspective on the whole process. I'm having artists come to ME looking for a job instead of the other way around.

But what I'm creating are books that are more about art instruction than telling a story of some kind. I do have several graphic novels planned but with those I will either be hiring a writer to collaborate with or co-writing.

I'm not looking to be a master artist or master writer...whatever "master" means....

I figure if someone likes what I've written and illustrated enough to want to buy it, then I've done my job. If my works become memorable like the works of the great "masters" of the past, then great. If not, well, I had a good time anyway.

:)


MoorDragon

[Ian Mack]

David Mack is sick! I think I have a new hero.

Ilaekae"Stream-of-consciousness" is an interesting term. I've encountered it alot when I've been writing although I never knew the name for it. It's an awesome feeling when you are writing, the words are pouring out and you have no idea what you're going to write next. I think I know what you mean by it creating the germ of an idea but I've never done it. Usually I start with a topic, write about it and then draw it.

I have great experiences with writing about my image before I actually start drawing it. I think it's easier to brainstorm the details of what you are drawing with words first and as a result, I have more time/brain power to spend on the visual considerations when I do start drawing.

Moordragon, congats on getting the deal! Good to know that that is one way of getting a book deal. I'm in illustration right now although I'm angling to become a storyboard artist.

It's my goal to publish a series of short stories by September of next year. Doing illustrations for it would be cool to but primarily...once I've completed it...I'll take the strongest stories and try to take those further into a graphic novel form or a straight-up novel.

Moordragon: So this company, they gave you a book deal before it was written? I have a friend who wants to write comic books and I'm thinking of taking my ideas to him to try and flesh them out into something that I can illustrate.

As a side note...Stephen King's new movie, "The Mist" is based off of one of his short stories!