I guess I can see why you guys dont like anime style...

[FlameDragon]

I mean, I still like it but...as I am studying and drawing anatomy alot now, I'd want that knowledge of anatomy to show in my drawings. With anime, on average it's quite simplistic...like a mouth might just be a line across, the calves might just be lines curving upwards, a line to indicate the neck muscles from the front. I like seeing the muscles show, shadows...I want to get the feeling that the character is alive! That's why nowadays I've been getting back into comic books.

[kev ferrara]

Personally, I believe the more one learns how things look, the more one can make interpretations of the world that have integrity. This leads to richer expression. The limited palette of most anime confines expression to, more or less, what has already been done. (In single pieces I mean, obviously in movies, the story and color and the kinetics can be very expressive indeed)

I think the limitations of anime art are somewhat analogous to Egyptian Hieroglyphs or Persian Miniatures. It can be beautiful, but its a bit like fast food. Easy and simple and enjoyable, but often offering only empty calories.

Best,
kev

[armando]

Anime's a blast. I like DragonBall, Naruto, all that stuff. The use of anatomy in a cartoon is irrelevant. No one complains that the Simpsons, South Park, The Far Side, and various other cartoons and comic strips have nonexistant anatomy.

[kev ferrara]

armando, I wasn't discussing entertainment value, per se. But integrity and scope of expression. I also wasn't talking about cartoons, but single illustrations in the manga style.

[HunterKiller_]

The reason Anime exists as it is, is because it's a style intended for animating. It necessarily needs to be simplistic.

[armando]

kev I was responding to his post, which specifically said anime.

[Thew]

i have no problem with anime if it is done correctly. Too many times in high school and even now in college people think they are so great at drawing, because they can draw anime. But when I look at the work there is a lot wrong with it, and i think the reasoning is because they are either copying another person's style or they don't know a thing about drawing anatomy. I've come to learn that you can't draw a human properly without knowing anatomy and once you know it you can mess around with it all you want.

the best part of anime is when it's implimented into illustration, then it doesn't look as flat. There is good rendering and sometimes these digital paintings with anime style look fantastic.

[Brendan N]

Personally, I don't have anything against the anime aesthetic. In fact it does a lot of things really well using the aesthetic. My issue with young artists placing a strong emphasis on anime is that it drives them into a stylistic and especially conceptual corner. I've seen this over and over, where young artists who subscribe to this style becomes uncreative - all of it ends up looking the same, feeling the same, reading the same - and more over, the concepts don't vary at all. I think it's really important for any contemporary illustrator to diversify, to be flexible and versatile. Subscribing purely to anime, from what I've seen, goes a long way in killing those qualities.

That's my personal view on the matter, more or less along the lines of what kev said.

[bhanu]

I love the guys doing japanese animations(anime) and mangas. Its simplistic and I think thats why it works so well. Almost all the attention is on the story and on action. ITs great.

actually most studios in japan dont take artists whos dont have a good grip on anatomy and life stuff.They are very stringent about that. I guess where the equation goes worng is, when children try to imitate them. Its the same as the case of that four year old girl whos selling abstracts for thousands of dollars. But in her case its working .With most kids it doesnt.

[seba_boi]

Anime-style artworks for videogames are fantastic!.... The stuff that comes out of Namco, Capcom, and SquareEnix are gorgeous eye-candies...

As for anime-style animation, as already said before, it's simplistic because it's made to be drawn thousands of times... But that said, there's still a significant amount of very innovative character designs from the anime world... And I'm particularly fond of some of the works in CLAMP, Ah! My Goddess, Cowboy Bebop, Serial Experiments Lain, Last Exile, and Rurouni Kenshin... And I love it when some of them tries to emulate the Mucha style like some art pieces for Wolf's Rain and X...

[nilaffle]

Why does anime get all the attention? Am I wrong, or do young artists also confine themselves by emulating American comics, Disney, and whatever cartoons are playing on Cartoon Network? If you hop over to the creature-creating world, every other drawing looks like it stepped out of The Lion King, Balto, or Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron - no appreciation for animal anatomy. I'll admit there are a lot of anime artists out there, but before anime took over wasn't everyone drawing steroid-pumped men and big-breasted women with tiny waists?

The important thing - like bhanu said - is that anime and manga creators normally have a very strong understanding of anatomy before they begin to push it into their own style. And as mentioned, anime needs to be simpler because of the medium. That's the step that most kids miss... and if they're lucky, they'll figure it out. Otherwise, they're just going to do what most all kids do: copy the stuff they like.

[kingshaj]

anime's stylistic conventions have almost nothing to do with ease of animation, thats just wrong.

It is true that all character design for animation must be simplified (12-24 drawings per second!).
However the look and style of anime is pure fashion ....they are very tall thin with large round eyes..usually blond (if a hero ) this is a cultural ideal ...and has little to do with the nuts and bolts of animation...

and as with all fashions its passing,
anime is definitely evolving away from that "no mouth big eye style"...there is a larger demand there, for heroes that dont look like flock of seagulls, and a turn towards realism.

[nilaffle]

However the look and style of anime is pure fashion ....they are very tall thin with large round eyes..usually blond (if a hero ) this is a cultural ideal ...and has little to do with the nuts and bolts of animation...
I was under the impression that we were discussing the lack of lips (one line or simplified shapes for the mouth) and underlying muscle definition in anime, not necessarily eye/limb size or color choices. In which case, you're right, it is mostly fashion. But still, not necessarily the rule - we're as likely to see the same exaggerations in other animation, just as we're likely to not see it in all anime.

[kingshaj]

all animation simplifies just as a matter of practicality
and of course all animators' work is stylized.

but when one says "anime' it is this specific look style they are discussing,

to apologize for it as a practical concern is ...well, its just simply not the case

[FactorZero]

the problem is so many artists see anime/manga style art and think since it looks simple they don't have to do any traditional studies to improve and be a good artist in that style. The fact is, if you are drawing the body in any recognizable form, studying real anatomy can do nothing but help strengthen your skills nomatter what the style. I know my art is anime influenced but I still do tons of studies of the figure from reference and it does help me improve although I'm still drawing in a simpler style.

[kingshaj]

realistic anime

[Magami]

Part of the fun I get out of creating fanart, when I'm not aiming for replication, is giving any anime/manga character more realistic features, or full on anatomy make overs to make them look almost human. XD
Too much detail/too much stylied parts wouldn't suit my aesthetics, were I planning to create animation.

[megas_imperius]

There are certain anime that throw the stylized characters into contrast with realism, in a good way--Cowboy Bebop, for instance, has very detailed backgrounds and, though the futurescape is strange, it's handled in a very realistic way.
And there are works like Castle of Cagliostro which have astoundingly fluid animation--if you really pay attention to the way characters move, it looks almost mo-capped.
Not to mention that Castle's environments were some of the lushest I've ever seen in an anime.

[kev ferrara]

Kingshaj! LOL!!!

[Salsa_artist]

or, in my case get hammered with well thought out crit, and then learn that ANATOMY IS IMPORTANT!!!

[FlameDragon]

I know I shouldn't blame it, but I think trying to copy the anime style ruined my art. I looked through some of my old drawings and it was really quite good, I had alot of imaginative ideas. Around 1999/2001 when I started getting anime though, I became obsessed with it and would just draw anime pictures instead of coming up with my own ideas. As a result I didnt bother learning anatomy or anything, I measured how good I was by how good I could reproduce the anime picture I was drawing from. It didnt stop until around 2005/2006 :(

[drd]

I know I shouldn't blame it, but I think trying to copy the anime style ruined my art. I looked through some of my old drawings and it was really quite good, I had alot of imaginative ideas. Around 1999/2001 when I started getting anime though, I became obsessed with it and would just draw anime pictures instead of coming up with my own ideas. As a result I didnt bother learning anatomy or anything, I measured how good I was by how good I could reproduce the anime picture I was drawing from. It didnt stop until around 2005/2006 :(

Ouch. I know anime is a really addictive thing for an artist. Recently I got into Bleach, I've been watching 100+ episodes online and such. I can see in some of my more cartoony sketches, just doodling, that my art is leaning slightly towards anime. It's very weird, I'm not even conscious of it. But it's easy to get my head back in order, I just do some figure studies or watch my Shawn Barber DVD again (If you haven't bought it yet, do it NAO)

[FlameDragon]

Ouch. I know anime is a really addictive thing for an artist. Recently I got into Bleach, I've been watching 100+ episodes online and such. I can see in some of my more cartoony sketches, just doodling, that my art is leaning slightly towards anime. It's very weird, I'm not even conscious of it. But it's easy to get my head back in order, I just do some figure studies or watch my Shawn Barber DVD again (If you haven't bought it yet, do it NAO)

Where do you get that DVD? Who is he?

[Elwell]

Where do you get that DVD? Who is he?
I've said it before, I'll say it again...
-FtTaDNsyCY
"LOOK SKYWARD, MORON!"

[SigonWulf]

I'm fine with anime, though I think most of it is rehashed garbage. Its the people that associate themselves with it that get to me.

Their obsession with the style and the culture I find highly annoying. Most of the ones I've met want to live in Tokyo or try to redraw Naruto and DBZ sketches. They often bash American artist for no reason at all and have a blind view of art. Maybe I just run into all the bad ones. Oh well.

[HunterKiller_]

and as with all fashions its passing,
anime is definitely evolving away from that "no mouth big eye style"...there is a larger demand there, for heroes that dont look like flock of seagulls, and a turn towards realism.

I have to disagree with you here.
Anime has been around for a long time, and it will always be around.
Just because hordes of ignorant children obsess over it doesn't make it a 'fashion'.
It really sounds to me like you've never watched good Anime,

[kingshaj]

HunterKiller: the fashion i referred to was the "anime" style...

it should be remembered that not all Japanese animation is “anime”.
The name refers specifically to the big eye style.

most newer Japanese animation is adhering to a more realistic style than has been seen in the past. A trending away from the large watery round eyes and thin nose style that creeps people out. The big eye trend is really a product of the eighties, when it realy got out of hand.

newer stuff is is far more dynamic and dimensional in addition to the more realistic anatomy. (samurai champloo etc)

Every pop-culture eventually shuns its clichés, in search of something fresh and different.

[HunterKiller_]

HunterKiller: t
it should be remembered that not all Japanese animation is “anime”.
The name refers specifically to the big eye style.

most newer Japanese animation is adhering to a more realistic style than has been seen in the past. A trending away from the large watery round eyes and thin nose style that creeps people out. The big eye trend is really a product of the eighties, when it realy got out of hand.

newer stuff is is far more dynamic and dimensional in addition to the more realistic anatomy. (samurai champloo etc)

Ok, slight misunderstanding there.
However, Samurai Champloo and the likes are considered Anime. The term 'Anime' umbrellas a huge range of style, there is an abyssal space separating one Anime style to the next, and there are specific terminology for each individual style, of which I do not know.

[love Rx]

big eyes and distorted features are not defining features of anime or manga.
there is a ton of different anime and manga out there. a good percentage of it is realistic.

realistic styles of anime are common in japan but over here the only thing that
the highschool kids are exposed to is whatever is on cartoon network.

you say that japanese animation is simple. some are. but have you seen angel's egg? it is a feature length anime film. all the cells and cityscapes were drawn by non other than Yoshitako amano. his drawing style is no where near the big eyes look.

another example

this is a manga
it was made by a manga artist.

http://www.boilet.net/am/mariko_parade.html
http://www.boilet.net/am/yukiko_esquisses.html

all of his figures are drawn from a hired asian art model.
his landscapes are mathmatically accurate and his shadows are consistant.

I rest my case.

[kingshaj]

the term has been bastardized by the west...

it is not an umbrella term
it refers to a specific style

[FactorZero]

anime, just refers to japanese animation in general. Although it may be associated with a certain style the term isn't meant to define it. Just as Manga refers to japanese comics. Saying anime refers to a specific style is like saying 'american comics' refers to marvel comics style.

[kingshaj]

Saying anime refers to a specific style is like saying 'american comics' refers to marvel comics style.

actually it is the opposite of that. Are you saying everything animated and Japanese is anime?


just not what the term meant when it was coined.

speed racer, anime? gatchaman, anime? no
just isn’t what the word means. sorry...although it is evolving to mean anything Japanese, this is clearly a western pigeon holing of the term.
the term was coined because before it was used people said "japanamation" .

this was too wide a term (and offensive to many) thus "anime". Its absolutely a subset, the term is a product of the 90s to define a style at its peak. that is simply the history.

Japanese animation is diverse. Anime has a specific style. (duh)

[DIMAGYAN]

kingshaj: i read somewhere that the anime term origin was in french vocable. i didn't know about japanamation. abaout the lack of use of anime word before the 90' i think you are right.

personaly i don't see a problem in what term is correct. the problem of language(any type) is that is alive, so is always evolving.
a similar term problem happens with comics, bd and manga: all are specific yet used in a wide scope. band dessinee for instance is something like: "drawing strip", the term manga was popular with tezuka, but gekiga was another school term. and comics refer to a humoristic strips.
will eisner and scott mccloud made some pretty accurate definitions of "sequential art" but is not common in the popular use.

words are more a problem than a help.

[kingshaj]

i agree,
for that very reason, we owe it to ourselves to make a disctintion,

so that one can make a statement like "i hate anime and i love akira"
Without contradicting oneself.

[DIMAGYAN]

i understand what you say. i don't know if it is a contradiction problem tho.
i think is more like an autor or work specific dicstintion instead of gender.

in others case is more easy make the type of statement you did, because sub categories are more defined. for instance: superheroes are u.s comics but not all u.s comics are superheroes, and due to the specifics things that happen in superheroes one can put superheroes as a whole, instead as a part.
but in japanese animation you have "pokemon" but you have also "sen no chihiro"
in both there are creatures and kids with "big eyes" but are yet really apart in all ways.

the example you made is curious, because to many people otomo is more a western creator than japanese ( im not saying this!, is something i read i don't remember where, sorry for not been accurate), of course he deny that.
and i think that idea come to many because the dicstintive style of his, with not gags and cinematic lines(he use some movement lines but always the movement is more important), realistic proportions and stories, and a very cinematographic narration(ok many mangas have this, but in general the panels distributions are less uniform and linear than for instance akira o domu)

so maybe say akira is anime is not a bad thing, for his author is in fact manga and japanese animation. o maybe better is only say to all type of "anime":japanese animation, because in fact all animation that come from japan are that, no?

[smellykitty]

lol

akira is anime

wanting to call anime nothing but big eyed freaks is very, misleading. the original reason why anime was given a term besides 'cartoon' was not becuase the characters had big eyes but becuase the japanese cartoons were not necessarily for children - which was a sharp contrast compared to mainstream cartoons being made for the west. its because akira makes peoples head hurt, that they are more comfortable calling it an anime than a cartoon.

what made anime, anime was that you could find anime for all age groups and interests - from sci-fi, to porn, for youth and children. when stores began to use the coin term anime, it signaled to adults this cartoon may not be suitable for children since foreigners are weird. the other defining factor that made anime very different from western cartoons at the time was that most anime being made were based off a manga. AND, that nearly most of those mangas were written and illustrated by one person. this is a contrast to american cartoons being created by the company, and not an artist, and in contrast to the vast majority of american comic books being made by a team and not one person.

the desire to call only big eyed freaks anime is just a way to hold a biased view of anime, and an easy cheap way to say "I dont like anime", when even among the big eyed freaks there is bound to be an anime someone likes. the difference I find is not the aesthetics that determine whether or not someone likes an anime, but the time period it was made in. I like anime from the 80s, even the big eyed freaks - but anime from the 90s makes my stomach churn.

of course today anime has become stupidly popular and a good deal of it now is very unoriginal, which is why people desire to label the anime they don't like as anime because of denial that there is good anime out there

you must like samurai champloo a lot to want to think of it as not being anime. ive got news for you, that chick still looks like any other anime chick to me. the tall skinny rounin, your typical tall anime pretty boy. Ive been seeing faces like his since tall girly boys became the in thing in the 80s. his appearance is the classical bishounen - good old fashioned shounen-ai male.

what makes samurai champloo so much fun though is that it makes fun of those stereotypes, after all, those stereotypes have been around for over 20 years. it also has an attention to detail, which was started by the earlier animes of the 80s and was lost in the 90s.

lastly, its also important to remember it was the west that defined 'anime' as 'anime' becuase it was so different from our mainstream cartoons. in japan, anime at the time were just called cartoons, except they easily accepted a cartoon didnt have to be for kids - its just an animated tv show. the time of the day the animated tv show was aired let them know who it was intended for.

also, you can blame the west for making those big eyed freaks a huge phenomenon. had the west not cared for japanese cartoons, they might look very different today.

[Zilant]

his appearance is the classical bishounen - good old fashioned shounen-ai male.

Freudian Slip?

[love Rx]

The problem of ignorance of anime

the problem lies in 3 forms. the 1st is a problem of clarity. terms are frequently used but not understood.
the 2nd is a problem of media, (television, internet). all to often corporate television networks such as cartoon network market its anime in an unfavorable mannor. deviant art is filled to the brim with shitty cartoony anime. the other form is relative to anime's reputation as being less than stellar.
the reputation of anime is further injured by its associated fans.
I would like to believe that most anime fans are intelligent people with a sound understanding of art.
unfortunately, as listed below, there is evidence of the contrary especially in highschools across america.

evidence of the problem of ignorance of anime

*thousands of anime fans who make an attempt to draw well are making shitty drawings in an attempt to mimic anime/manga style.
*art schools and professional art communities tend to avoid anime like the plague
*the few people who draw anime well and have fundamental technical drawing skills are ridiculed and tagged as unprofessional.
side note:I hate this fucking attitude
*anime is often associated with goth poseurs(nerds who wear black)
*hot topic regularly promotes anime in the form of T shirts.
(nothing against hottopic, I just bought a death cab for cutie shirt from there,
its not a terrible place, but it adds to the problem at the same time)
*the T-shirts that have anime on them are poorly designed (for the most part)


something must be done and people need to know why.
reasons to solve the problem



the goth community has been injured by poseurs for a variety of reasons.
as goth poseurs are attracted to anime, the association is bad for both genuine goths and genuine anime fans.

some non artists also shy away from anime because of its percieved association with shitty people.

the art community is also starting to turn its collective back on a unique and truely wonderfull art form as a result of media and shitty association.


the facts

I disagree with the notion that not all animation from japan is anime.



anime-a blanket term that describes all forms of animation in japan. all animation in japan have common elements that separate it from western animation or comics. the same elements occur in manga as well. NOTE: exagerated features are not one of these elements.

element a an emphasis on being there, a ton of aspect to aspect illustrations. this is a japanese aesthetic. it occurs more frequently and commonly than in american animation.

element b emphasis on the momment to momment representation than action to action. an american cartoon would be more likely to portray a man getting out a gun in 2 seconds. an anime, however, would show him unzipping his jacket, wiping his hand accross his face and slowly reaching in his pocket and getting the gun out.

soap opraa aesthetic most anime is in serial format, with long sagas and complex plotlines. lets put it this way, if you went a watched episode 49 of batman beyond, you would have no problems comprehending the plot. this is not the case with all american cartoons, but as a whole, they lack this serial element. however, if you were to view the anime "last exile" at episode 53, you would have no fucking clue as to how to make sense of the plot.



used in 2 ways. the 1st usage is a western one which describes all animation in japan.
the japanese people use the term "anime" to refer to all animation from all over the world.

Japanimation-a term used and envented by japanese to describe animation in japan. this term was created to distinguish japanese anime, from the japanese usage of the word "anime".

anime style (also known as manga style)- a method of abstraction which relies on exagerated eyes, etc. it is based off of the cartoony aspects of anime, it is not however, derived from animation from japan as a whole. It is simply a [false] western perception of anime as a whole. it is a style that is apparent certain anime, not all.

anime inspired-a term used to describe western cartoons, illustrations and
comics that seek too mimic the more cartoony side of anime/manga.


anime is a term that includes all animation from japan. japanese animation encompasses all forms of animation including cartooning the japanese cartoons have exagerated features, not unlike the exagerated features of some western cartoons. I don't consider akira a cartoon.


the solution


*remove the term "anime style" from your vocabulary.


*market more anime T shirts that incorporate better graphic design and are form fitting.
*convince dolce and galbanna other italian fashion houses to design and sell anime t-shirts
(the more credability anime has, the more hope we have of salvaging its reputation.)
*create a term for cartoony anime/manga style.
*create a term for realistic anime/manga style.
*create a term for realistic anime/manga.
*create a term for cartoony anime/manga.
*create a term for realistic american comics/animation
*create a term for cartoony american comics/animation
*somehow convince cartoon network to air a huge ammount of realistic anime.
*somehow convince cartoon network to run a yearlong documentary explaining the differences between realistic anime and cartoony anime and their relationship with cartoony american comics and realistic american comics.
*market anime to a more mainstream audience, besides nerdy people and poseurs.
remember when everybody aside from geeks were staying up late playing halo? the same thing needs to happen to anime.
market market market!!!!


assumed results of solution


*make the above distinctions widely known and accepted by the art community in every scene so artists, teachers and art school admissions stop
bashing anime on the basis of misunderstanding what anime actually is.
so that they will:

a.stop telling kids anime is bad
b.realize that realistic anime/manga is to be celebrated and loved.
(event hough cartoony anime has its place)
c.realize that a few good anime pieces can make an already polished portfolio even better.

*make the above information known to highschool artists who love anime so that they will:
a. understand the differences between terms
b. realize the existance of realistic anime.
c. begin to see that drawing realistically wont betray the anime/manga aesthetic elements.

[ReCreate]

Most anime I see is interesting. But the style... Its not unique! Anime to me is just another limitation for creativity.

[kingshaj]

LoveRX

what you are saying is historically incorrect.

if these are your personal definitions, that is fine.

but:
japanamation is an American term ...even for those that do not remember this term, that should be obvious...because it is English and is condescending.

furthermore it referred to the fact that the genre was for adults.

there was a huge western demand for Japanese animation, before the term "anime' was coined.. Robotech,patlabor, gundam, etc were all referred to as "japanamation" there wasnt word for anime in the US at the time, and Japanamation refers to all animation from Japan.

when the name was coined. (i want to say 91 but who realy knows)

the big eye style does predate Anime. The style comes from many places,
primarily manga that was marketed to young girls, with a heavy influence on innocence and earnestness ...And as Japanese animation began to favor female pre-pubessant heroines, the manga eyes find a larger place in animation.


the history is there..
you can make your own definitions if you like to fit your agenda, but be clear that it isnt how the history happened.

and people that are old enough to remember the 80s will immediately see the inaccuracy in your statements. it was a time a fan had to hunt in small comic or collectibles shops..there was no "sun coast video" no cartoon network,
everything was in the original Japanese and the word Anime was 10 years away.

[love Rx]

Linguistically, the anime definition is subject to interpretation. In Japan, the term
does not specify an animation's nation of origin or style; instead, it is used as a blanket term to refer to all forms of animation from around the world.[11] In English, main dictionary sources define anime as "a Japanese style of motion-picture animation" or "a style of animation developed in Japan".[12] Thus, non-Japanese works are sometimes called anime-influenced animation if they borrow stylistically from Japanese animation.

In western countries the word is used usually only to refer to animated programming of Japanese origin, with the term "cartoon" or "animated series" used for most other visual styles. The online anime database AniDB generally defines anime (in the singular form) as "an animated, professionally produced, feature film created by a Japanese company for the Japanese market".[11] However, some anime are co-productions with non-Japanese companies like the Cartoon Network and Production IG series IGPX. Thus, anime is no longer specific to the Japanese market.


Anime is sometimes referred to as Japanimation, but this term has fallen into disuse. Japanimation saw the most usage during the 1970s and 1980s and had continued use up until before the mid-1990s anime resurgence. In general, the term now only appears in nostalgic contexts. The term is much more commonly used within Japan to refer to domestic animation. Since anime or animēshon is used to describe all forms of animation, Japanimation is used to distinguish Japanese work from that of the rest of the world.

wikipedia seems to aggree with me.
but wikipedia has been known to be wrong at times.

I trust that you know your stuff though. maybe the wiki article was false. do you have any sources?

[Jazz]

FlameDragon, regarding your original post, I certainly understand your desire to get away from the anime style as you're learning to improve on anatomy and stuff!

I find myself always loving the anime style, but when it comes down to practicing my proportion and everything else, I just turn around to shove away pretty much ANY style, as much as my head allows. Sometimes it slips in. :P

As some people said, and I agree, some anime/manga is done REALLY well. I watched Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop, too (plus many other animes mentioned). That is awesome effort those people put into the cartoons. They have their style, but they have great control with movement, colour, details, etc.

I'm not sure if you feel like you shouldn't enjoy the style because of how you're improving, but it's not a bad thing either way--to like or lose interest in it--while you're learning some crucial fundamentals. :)

[love Rx]

First off, let's try to define Anime. The general consensus is that the Japanese word anime is derived from the French word animé, which translated into English means “animated.” The French word can be used either as a verb, or as an adjective, but it is not a noun. In Japan, anime is used to refer to all animation, Japanese animation, American animation, Korean animation and every other type of animation. Pure and simple, the Japanese word anime translated into English is “animation”. However, in English we use the word Anime to refer to Japanese animation, also referred to sometimes as Japanimation.


here is the original article:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2002-07-26

[kingshaj]

All that rather large quote says re: the English def. is....
"However, in English we use the word Anime to refer to Japanese animation, also referred to sometimes as Japanimation."
i think the wiki post only proves the word has indeed been bastardized and that bastardization is now in "print".


We don't for instance refer to Polish Anime, one just doenst use the word that way. Although according to your sources this would be in keeping with the Japanese definition....so clearly it is different in than the English def.


Furthermore, there are Japanese animation directors, working in Japan that say they don't care for Anime.,,(they do not mean they dont care for animation as a medium)
but by your definition thats too darn bad, 'cause they are destined to be labeled, Anime directors unless they expatriate.

Just as there are Japanese Comic artists that dont care for manga and bristle at the thought of being labeled as such...."to bad dont like it? hit the bricks..."

It seems to be both harsh and a totally meaningless term if that were to be the case. why not francimation? ...or "Franime' "? "Guatamalanimation"?
words aren't coined to be meaningless. they come about to describe something specific that didn't previously have a label....to say "im talking about this...not that" the more fans began to realize and explore the diverse styles of Japanese animation, descriptors became necessary, to separate Nausica from SpeedRacer ..fans and shoppers felt the need for a subset...a way to ask for what they wanted.


it makes me sad to think this may no longer be true, and soon we will call all of japanese culture Anime, even the food..lol

[love Rx]

its sad as you said, being labeled with such misleading term.

its pretty interesting though, how an inaccurately coined term can cause generations of artists to be labeled against their will.

[Vhan Juju]

Hey guys! I have been following this thread for a while, and kind of decited to see if this time it would let me post after activateing.

Anyway, I do actually have a little something to say about the subject.

I don't believe that anime (I am useing the term in a umbrella term here) is exactley "unprofesional", or "amatur", etc etc etc.

I do believe that a lot of time and effort can go into createing a anime, or manga, but here I think is the divide.

You have your professional anime, and yea, quite a bit of time and a great deal of effort can be put into this form of drawing, I respect and admire it.

And you also have your A-typical highschooler who is OBSESSED with naturo, and flips through his SJ every month drawing him....

Gah, im tierd, so this is going to be scatterd, I'll try and get to my point.

If you were to look at drawing a anime face, Vs a real one, then (by all means) the anime one is much, much easyier to COPY....No shadows, no nostrls, a line is a mouth, etc. So you have a Ton of un-challanged highschoolers running around with extra-expensive pencils who have never been challanged by things like anatomy, and porportions. Here is the catch, a lot of these kids, can't draw unless they are looking at the picture.

I mean, what I'm trying to say is "anime" is a cultural thing, a lot of us highschoolers get a kick out of drawing er...copying our favorite character into a sketchpad, flashing it to our friends, like us, and....you get the point dont you?

Its like Art instant gratification.....no anatomy problems, things can be disporportional, hair takes less than 4-well-planned-lines.

I don't however think that is in any way a "fault" of "anime"-style, but I would think that a lot of people out there take advantage of it to get that "instant art gratification"

anyway, I'm gonna sleep now, BYE!

[seba_boi]

it should be remembered that not all Japanese animation is “anime”.
The name refers specifically to the big eye style.


????.... Japanese animation is called anime... Not just the "big eye" style...


most newer Japanese animation is adhering to a more realistic style than has been seen in the past. A trending away from the large watery round eyes and thin nose style that creeps people out. The big eye trend is really a product of the eighties, when it realy got out of hand.

Not necessarily... A lot of eighties stuff are rather small-eyed... Macross, Gundam, Voltron, The World Masterpiece theatre works...

[Vhan Juju]

I mean, you also have to take into account that a very strong asset to anime/manga is that it has the freedom to ingore anatamy...Trying to think of a example...You know that moment when some character gets mad and there face blows up to the size of whatever, yea, that.

While anime doesn't use anatomy, shadeing, and outher means to bring a image to life, the things they do use, backgrounds, "manga heads", those japan SFX, do make up for it Imo,

[FactorZero]

anime does and doesn't use anatomy. I depends really on the style. But If you're drawing people in some form or another you will need some anatomy. American cartoons do the same it just depends on the style. Look at the Simpsons. The all have big heads, big eyes, three fingers and simplified joints. I think the difference is anime is really popular and in the spotlight right now. People like to draw it because it is popular. When you have tons of people trying to draw anime because it looks cool and easy, there are gonna be tons of people making substandard art.

Take it this way, if anime wasn't in the spotlight and it was american cartoons there would be just as many kids drawing bad Disney characters and Simpsons. All the people who resent the popular trend would be ridiculing those people for not drawing realistically.

[Vhan Juju]

People like to draw it because it is popular. When you have tons of people trying to draw anime because it looks cool and easy, there are gonna be tons of people making substandard art.


Its all over highschool.

For example, If I drew a real sketch, and did all my guidelines, etc, the majority of my highschool classmates would give me a wierd look and ask something like "whats up with all these wierd lines?"

If you were to take a look inside of most highschools today, there is normally at least one group who carries thier sketchbooks around with them constantley, while they wear thier favorite anime shirts, you know the types.

Here is the thing tough, a lot of these kids are just trying to impress thier peers by haveing Cleaner, and More "drawings" in thier sketchbook than the outhers.

Sorry, maybe this bugs me more than some of you older guys, and maybe thats why I seem so stuck on this aspect of it. Its allmost flustrateing to see so many kids keeping a sketchbook with them all day, when they havent drawn anything new in Months...just so if someone asks about it, they can show them something they drew who knows how long ago...

(Before I go further, I'll admit right now I'm one of those kids, well used to be anyway, I'm finally makeing steps to learn proper human anatomy, etc)

So I'm ditching the anime for a while, untill I can at least do it properley.


But drawing anime in school is as much about fitting in as it is wearing the right color socks with your shoes, it just depends on what group your in,

meh.

[kingshaj]

seba_boi:

i dont thinkFlameDragon'soriginal question referred to all styles of animation from the Island of japan (if so, his question wouldn’t make any sense) ...pretty sure he meant a specific style...which i will leave it to him to define. but it seems clear that he refers to specific style that he felt may be confining, or at the very least worthy of discussion.


we should ask him...Flame you in here?


this post is going in circles now....im not passionate enough about the topic to hang in much longer.


but in answer to his original post:

i think an artist should hold style and their originality as a very high priority indeed.
But never trying to be original for its own sake ..because we all know that that just leads to wacky shock value stuff...but to sincerely try to find ones individual VOICE..if you do it will be totally new and inherently original. Avoid trends, avoid National Styles and be conscious and disciplined about imitating your heroes...mix it up!.........do exercises to facilitate finding your own voice. stuck drawing anime for a bit...try using giant brick of charcoal on huge paper, to prevent you from obsessing on the details.

hope this helps..

[FlameDragon]

Wow! I didnt think the topic would cause a debate. Maybe I was being too broad using the term anime since anime isn't one style and can actually be very simplistic looking or quite complex looking. What I mean is that, when you see a realistic drawing, then look at a comic book style, then look at an anime drawing, you would instantly be able to know which one is anime. So there must be something about those types of drawings that separate it from others. My conception, after looking at many different animes for about 9 years, is that "anime style" on average seems simplistic in the drawings, in that whereas in a comic style drawing the forms will usually look closer to real life forms (but with more muscles), in anime style drawing you wouldnt see that much muscle definition, heads are usually larger, many times eyes dont look like they would in real life. Maybe I'm generalizing too much, but I believe when you a person thinks of anime they think of a certain style of drawing that is disntinct from others.

[sumthingwong510]

you might want to check out this thread b4 you continue.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104238&page=3

[smellykitty]

Its all over highschool.

For example, If I drew a real sketch, and did all my guidelines, etc, the majority of my highschool classmates would give me a wierd look and ask something like "whats up with all these wierd lines?"

If you were to take a look inside of most highschools today, there is normally at least one group who carries thier sketchbooks around with them constantley, while they wear thier favorite anime shirts, you know the types.

Here is the thing tough, a lot of these kids are just trying to impress thier peers by haveing Cleaner, and More "drawings" in thier sketchbook than the outhers.

Sorry, maybe this bugs me more than some of you older guys, and maybe thats why I seem so stuck on this aspect of it. Its allmost flustrateing to see so many kids keeping a sketchbook with them all day, when they havent drawn anything new in Months...just so if someone asks about it, they can show them something they drew who knows how long ago...

(Before I go further, I'll admit right now I'm one of those kids, well used to be anyway, I'm finally makeing steps to learn proper human anatomy, etc)

So I'm ditching the anime for a while, untill I can at least do it properley.


But drawing anime in school is as much about fitting in as it is wearing the right color socks with your shoes, it just depends on what group your in,

meh.

the year I graduated if you were into anime you were a nerd and an outcast - two years later you were a nerd and an outcast if you weren't into anime. its incredible how fast a fad comes in!

while it is frustrating to see anime so stupidly popular among teenagers now - it's not really a concern for young artists. its the same as deviantart - while anime is really big and popular on deviantart, you have to always remember just because someone draws anime doesn't mean they intend to be an artist of any kind - or make their own manga. drawing fanart is just their past time

only a small handful of the anime teenage fans actually want to be artists - and if they even they want to make mangas, they don't have to search very far to learn that virtually all manga professionals recommend learning real anatomy to begin with. will drawing manga/anime ruin their career? the best advice the pros have given to their adoring fans is simple - a mangaka has to be able to draw anything, so draw, draw and draw everything.

[pvrhye]

The very act of drawing something means you're abandoning some sort of information. Even Chuck Close's work isn't a literal perfect three dimensional representation of the original. So style is the name we give to an individual's conventions of abandoning that information. The trouble is when someone trys to imitate a style instead of being informed by it. There's nothing wrong with anime, but I wouldn't fall into the trap of saying "I want to draw just like Morimoto!".

[Rabid]

anime's stylistic conventions have almost nothing to do with ease of animation, thats just wrong.

It is true that all character design for animation must be simplified (12-24 drawings per second!).
However the look and style of anime is pure fashion ....they are very tall thin with large round eyes..usually blond (if a hero ) this is a cultural ideal ...and has little to do with the nuts and bolts of animation...

and as with all fashions its passing,
anime is definitely evolving away from that "no mouth big eye style"...there is a larger demand there, for heroes that dont look like flock of seagulls, and a turn towards realism.


As a previous animation student, let me put two things in place, 99% of anime that I have seen except for the intro videos are done on 12's (lingo for 12 fps)

Second, I wouldn't say thousand of drawings per episode in most, 80% of the time they are standing there with just their lips moving...
For example, Fred Flinstone had exactly 6 mouth shapes for every single word he ever said in the shows. E A O F G U
Anime, tends to be even less than this...closed *teeth* *no teeth*, semi open, full open, and o face....

Anime characters are not that geared for animation and it shows by the lack of fluent frames and long pauses in movement. More of an animatic in most circumstances. But that is simply style as well and not just sheer apathy for realism.

[lumar]

i think miyazaki voids most anti-anime arguments. the problem is that bad anime is still anime and is much easier than good anime, therefore there is a lot of bad anime around.

[Taiken Kage]

I've been on this for a while now and I want to contribute.

Just because Anime tends to ignore proportions at times, who's to say it's a limit of creativity? sure Highschoolers parade around with Naruto notebooks and hoodies, and mimic Masashi Kishimoto's style of art, but it's a start into the world of art. Just think of it this way, Highschoolers get into anime and began to draw crap-tastic imitations of their fave characters. Then they persue another style of art. That happened to me. I started out in the 8th grade drawing DBZ characters, then I made up my own characters. It's not a limit on creativity, it removes the limit on it. In anime you can see a semi-realistic person (who has a neck: in reference to some american cartons) with any color hair, style of clothes, hair style...with no limits. anywhoo I moved on to portrait art and can draw a nice anime picture then draw a detailed, proportioned portrait.

I probably didn't make much sense, but then again it is 4 am.

what I'm trying to say is, no style of art should be shunned or outcasted.

ugh I need to sleep. later in the day I'll re-read and try to make sense of my post...