Anime Aversion

[Zilant]

There's been quite a few Anime-ish/-esque/-styled/-derivative/
-inspired/-whatever Art Threads lately. And the reactions here sort of baffle me.

Not the wholly justifyable and completely reasonable statement: you have to learn the rules before you can break them. That's just good sense. I'm talking more about the comments that allude to being opinionated against the style simply because it is what it is. And all the mutterings that CA and Anime not mixing well isn't something new, it's just par for the course.

So, what is it about Anime that makes it play so poorly on CA?


I'm not asking this just to stir up a potential Hornet's Nest.

I'm asking because I was planning on including an Anime-styled Heroine in my Portfolio, (the only anime-styled object for the record), just to prove my range of styles can include the current Fad. It makes sense to me, in a strictly Marketing kind of way. But the reactions here are making me second-guess this descion. After all, if a forum full of professionals isn't a good measuring stick for how a Portfolio will play, nothing is.

But before I completely scrap the project, I want to be sure there's something about the style itself (or maybe just the act of going along with Fads? Trying to draw in any style that is labelled "Foriegn"?) that seems to be the source of the Forum's aversion, or is it some other factor coming into play that makes sense on a forum but might not hold true IRL?



I know, there's much potential for flame-age in the subject matter. I'm sorry.
I just don't want to waste my time on something that might not work out, just because I was too scared to ask this.

[Justin.]

It depends heavily on your target audience. If you are going for a field were stylistic diversity is IMPORTANT, than it is a good marketing decision I would think. However, if you were going to something somewhat specialized like Storyboards or book illustrations or Concept art, I would say it may be harmful. Not that it SHOULD be harmful, but as I'm sure you have to acknowledge, anime has a generally negative connotation not only among Artists, but among people who aren't into 'kid stuff'. -PERSONALLY-, I believe that a portfolio should be used to demonstrate your strengths, and while diversity may qualify as a strength, I know that if I was an art director, I would take a well rendered, polished character with good forms and perspective and composition and value (and color I guess), over a cel-shaded line drawing in a very easily approached style. Realism is tough, and any artist who has tried it will realize that. Anime (not saying it isn't hard) is easier, and any artist who has tried both will probably tell you anime is easier to do.


In a nutshell,
Your portfolio is only as strong as it's weakest piece. Or something like that.

[Cwn Annwn]

Some people seem to hate anime with a passion, others don't mind it so much and some are obsessed with it a little too much.

Perhaps the antagonism is from the fact that it's popular right now, meaning it's done to death, and often poorly. I'd guess most people here have an issue with poorly done derivative rubbish than anime itself.

Have a look up top, http://www.conceptart.org/?artist=Gezstar is up there. Can't really say "OMGz, CA has Japanophobia..." now can we?

[Elwell]

Anything, anything, ANYTHING that gets kids interested in drawing is A Good Thing.
Yes, 99.9% of them will be awful, but so are 99.9% of kids who pick up a guitar or a baseball bat.
Have you been a big city B&N or Borders after three on a weekday? There are packs of GIRLS reading COMIC BOOKS, for chrissakes!
STOP TEH HAET!

[DIMAGYAN]

what elwell said. i see in my city and (country) a big amount of kids and older people reading comics. you realize the signification of that? in this time with extreme audiovisuals, hiper realistic videogames and so on...kids reading and interesed in something in paper ,that is amaizing.anyone has to elaborate his/her own path in this life.

[HunterKiller_]

Anime that is well done, is beautiful as any other style. Unfortunately, most of it is crap, unoriginal and cliched.

The term Anime/Manga style umbrellas a whole range of noticeably differing 'sub-styles', different artists put their own touches into it, to make their own, to make it original. Again, this doesn't happen often amongst the people who practice it.

Anime does an unprecedented job of bringing kids, both boys and girls, into drawing by the hordes. Unfortunately, most of said boys and girls will blindly dive in uninformed - digging themselves into an artist grave.
I can say this, because I personally know too many of these people.

[dierat]

Yeah, I think all the responses pretty much cover it ;D

So, this anime character that you're doing, I say do it. It's good to have a wide range of stuff in your history. Even if you decide not to include it in your portfolio at the current time, it could come in handy later. But, obviously, make sure it's a well-done anime, though that goes without saying for everything in your portfolio.

[tomwaits4noman]

I like some anime but its not a style I would draw in

I think the main problem with anime is that because it looks simple a large no of people use it as a drawing style without understanding the rules or what makes it work.

Also some people create terrible art and say oh its anime (some of the stuff has major anatomy problems even for a stylised piece) ... they use the style as an excuse to cover flaws rather than to learn the basic principles of drawing.

Also there is so much anime around..... people are just getting sick of it...

[Zilant]

Hmmmmm.

I'm glad the reactions are overall positive, I really hate scrapping things halfway through. But there are some good points here I hadn't considered. Guess I'll just put it on the back burner for now, and mull over it's place in my Portfolio.

[Ilaekae]

I don't buy the argument that many people here (and on many other "western" forums) hate the Manga styles because it's so badly done by so many people or "the current thing." I think it's a real antagonism against a particular field of art for no other reason that it IS different. Otherwise, we'd be constantly railing about bad Frazetta copiers and bad US comics. You want an example of a hack (personal opinion only) that shouldn't have been allowed near a publisher? Think "Corben." After explaining to me how this man can get away with the crap he churns out, you can criticize Shiwasu no Okina and Junny all you want.

To be honestly blunt, the vast majority of people who are most against Japanese manga/anime are probably incapable of even churning out a decent version of something themselves in that vein that would get them noticed in that field. It takes a different mindset, set of skills and in some cases, a better understanding of actual basic design than many western illustrators have. The fact that we constantly have "wars" over abstraction, "styles" and "technique" proves that. Great illustration, no matter what form it takes, involves DESIGN first, and a hell of a lot more knowledge than knowing where somebody's left nipple belongs.

And dismissing an entire culture's contribution to the field of pubished art as "kid-stuff," well...lemme get this straight...we're all here being serious about developing characters with overdeveloped bodies and gigantic tits squeezed into spandex for the game and comics world, and lets not forget the really serious shit of making movies...about monsters, fairies, wizards, aliens, apocalyptic nubile females with razor-sharp axes and impossible bras...y'know...REAL adult stuff.

Without an understanding of abstract concepts, Rockwell's "Integration" wouldn't exist. Without the stylings of many of the "early" Japanese anime and manga artists, a good many of the costumes and environments in modern western motion pictures and electronic games wouldn't exist. Hell, modern Disney wouldn't exist.

Lets be a bit more open in approaching things that aren't "just like I always did before" and you might get a surprise at the end of your own pencil. And as far as "the cell art" of anime vs western realism in illustration, how about at least getting it right if you're going to insist on quality comparisons--anime is animation. Of course it looks like a painted cell. What would you expect, a cheese sandwich? And manga is simply a comic--just like the shit Marco is doing so well...so from now on, lets compare anime with Yogi Bear and see where things fall.

It looks different because it is different. It's Japanese. Period.

of course, I' not defending it across the board. That would just as stupid as defending western popular applied art just because it's what it is. I mean...even I have to admit they have no sense of design over there...no character development...not even the faintest ability to depict an emotion...

http://photos.imageevent.com/aljmary/conceptarts/design.jpg

...and they can't draw decent anatomy for shit, even as a cartoon...and what's with that dreary "painted cell look? Don't they have any real paint and brushes?

http://photos.imageevent.com/aljmary/conceptarts/anatomypaint.jpg

And...as far as a portfolio is concerned...take a look at this guy's simple-minded shit. He wouldn't stand a chance of getting a job against the western geniuses we just turn out like sweet-smelling farts in a meadow. There's that flat painted cell look, the same old look-alike crap... Probably end up as a 7-11 clerk somewhere...

http://photos.imageevent.com/aljmary/conceptarts/junnyportfolio.jpg

So...allow me to adopt a serious tone here for a second...

Find a way to open your mind to new ideas and approaches...and get a sense of humor. Otherwise, you'll end up all twisted and confused with a squid up your ass...

http://photos.imageevent.com/aljmary/conceptarts/lastjoke.jpg

[DSillustration]

I'm asking because I was planning on including an Anime-styled Heroine in my Portfolio, (the only anime-styled object for the record), just to prove my range of styles can include the current Fad. It makes sense to me, in a strictly Marketing kind of way.

That sounds like a pretty bad marketing in my opinion.
In the long run, you're just telling your client that YOU are a fad.

You do not want a client to hire you because you can do everything.
Rather, you want a client to hire you because you are the only person who can do a particular thing.
That is what will make you sought after.

Think of it this way;
Do you want the guy who is a Mechanic/Roofer/Contractor/Landscaper working on your car?
Or do you want the Engine Specialist?

[sve]

Hmm, picture are too beautiful, Ilaekae, I would love to see more :). Your post is really good, IMO, we need to open up our brains and heart to new ideas and shoo intolerance and self-adoration away, just to suggest for our own self-improvement and refinement that we can be wrong or too ignorant to judge something. Me including of course.

More of manga hopefully? :) I didn't expect it to be so tasteful. Although I liked anime Cowboy Bebop style very much :).

[Zilant]

Very thought-provoking post Ilaekae.


Actually, DS,
the Portfolio's more being structured along the lines of Concept Artist, not freelance. (Although, knowing how to construct a Freelance Portfolio will undoubtedly be helpful in the future. I entertain no silly notions of getting hired right out of college. :^^;: )

As far as I understand it, browsing through Job Postings, other resumes, and resume advice, I should be focusing on is a wide variety of Styles, Genres and Subject matters. I'm assuming it's because your Art Director ultimately will tell you what to draw, so they wanna' know up front that your flexible...Ahm, is this right?

[Ilaekae]

[...this'll probably start a friggin' war...

Art Directors are Gods. Most of them are also assholes. Being a God does not automatically preclude you from being an asshole. Keep that in mind and you'll be fine.


...and smile a lot.

[seba_boi]

http://photos.imageevent.com/aljmary/conceptarts/anatomypaint.jpg

Who drew the one on the left?... Not a hentai fanatic but that's quite good...

[subversive-imaginati]

Actually, Modern Disney would probably exist without the Asian influence since Disney's productions also had a huge impact on Asian anime and Disney came first. I personally consider them to be two trees, both grow in different soil and have their own roots, trunk and leaves, they lean on each other for support but there's a chance that either one could have stood on their own anyway.

Personally as someone who has spent some time learning about the history behind the artform, I find it rather irritating that everyone is either "omg it's ebil" or "omg it's the best" or worse "Eastern/Western cartoon art is just a pale derivative of the other".

Each side of the coin has received some influence from the other. However it's not quite right to insist that modern Disney would exist without Anime since Disney started off with a strong style and kept going. Also it can't be proved either way anyway, there's nothing to prove that Disney as a company wouldn't have developed like they have with no other influences. All artforms march forward after all.

I think what chiefly irritates the hell out of both the Manga-ka's and the non manga artists is that most of the "devoted" hordes don't even take the time to get a cursory knowledge of Anime/manga's history or even an inkling of how an Asian artist developes artistically. They simply think slavishly drawing the same pose of Naruto/Gundam wing/whatever anime they think is the pinnacle of art is going to magically net them a job as a manga-ka.

Of course Anime isn't as easy as it looks since the average Japanese Manga-ka has studied just as hard as realism artists have. Some studios in Japan? Won't touch you unless you have ten years of life drawing behind you. I think people really underestimate that because it looks easy, which is why there's so much derivative anime crap being produced by Western artists.

I'm not surprised people are largely pissed off with anime, I know if I have to listen to one more supercilious fangirl prattle on about how anime is the best thing since sliced bread and omg realism artists suck, and omg everyone should draw anime? I could quite easily start hating Anime just for the idiot fanbrats and I like drawing it occasionally. So yeah, you're not going to get totally level comments from artists often exposed to that kind of crap.

Anime is often quite staid in some ways, it tends towards a lot of archetypes just like Western comics. What is produced on conceptart just by the various concept artists tends to be a lot more imaginative than the vast majority of anime or western comics for that matter.

[Nikki_Cole]

I agree with both Ilaekae (btw, nice post...you also showed that anmie can be beautiful and lousy(meaning how I don't care so much for the cartoony look but I do love the anji mito)) & Subversive-Imaginati. I think that anime is being played too much but we need to stop and think why is that?

I rather draw anime because it's what I know and what I am good at...but I also want to be able to shoot out life sketchings and still life as well. How can I grow as an artist if I don't incorporate those things into my sketching.

I think, Zilant you should post it and not be fearful of what others will say just because it is what it is. Someone, like myself, will enjoy to seeing that across the boards.

I would like to see it. So post it and give me the link.

[Ilaekae]

Actually, seba_boi, it's ecchi, not hentai, but for the love of me, I can't remember the artist's name. I picked it up about two years ago to add to my art reference files, but the original poster was some idiot who didn't think it was important to note who executed it. I've been trying to ID it through comparison since then, but haven't succeeded yet (the piece is so familiar that I probably already know the mangaka, but just haven't been able to match a name to the "face" yet...)

subversive'...

I also see the two as two branches of the same tree, but historically, that tree has some foul roots. Animation existed before Disney came along, and I have no great love for this man because he reminds me of the worst of the western creative fields. He DID take it to a new and better level, but he did it by ripping off and violating copyrights on a grand scale, both with scripts and art. The court records are a matter of historical fact.

You'll note that I said "modern Disney" in my original post. The post-war period is when the Japanese influence became a factor in the Disney world. A close look at the character development shows a real impact from the traditional Japanese style of "little-girl" women in his later heroines, and the addition of "comic sidekicks" is actually more because of Japanese influence than any other factor. I would have to say, without disparaging in any way the incredible abilities of the hundreds of Disney artists over the years, that probably from the late 50s on, the company benefited more from Japan than the other way around. If you're familiar with Disney, you'll already know that the company had an unbreakable "brush-only" rule for it's cartooning and animation, more a Japanese tradition than a US one (whether this still holds, I don't know, but it was in effect when I had to qualify for a Disney sub-contractor license back in the 70s...). Competing animators would aften use pen and ink, or a combination with brush, for their products. Disney has done great things as a company, but when I dig deeper into their "product," what I find is derivative, because in fact, the company is very similar to Microsoft--great at producing an amazing and successful product, but not all that creative in the original inspiration. Hope that doesn't sound offensive--wsn't meant that way. It's just a matter of history.

[Extollere]

http://photos.imageevent.com/aljmary/conceptarts/anatomypaint.jpg

Who drew the one on the left?... Not a hentai fanatic but that's quite good...

pretty sure that the one on the left is Shunya Yamashita
http://www015.upp.so-net.ne.jp/shunya/
The one on the right is Prometheus from here

myself I'm a pretty big Okama fan:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/one2hit/okamarble030.png

[Ilaekae]

I think you're right on the "white girl" drawing, Extollere. The face should have given me a clue...and you're not the only Okama fan here.:)

The problem I have with IDing some of the artists I collect is that I came into japanese art from the hentai end, many many years ago, and went from there. Many of the artists often use more than one name depending on what type of audience they're aimimg at, so getting a fix on some of the older drawings is a nightmare...

[seba_boi]

Many thanks EXTOLLERE and ILAEKAE... I'm gonna look both up right away... So I guess "ecchi" is like the soft-porn version?...

[Extollere]

Sort of. Ecchi is the Japanese pronunciation of the English letter "H" which in turn stands for hentai or anything sexually related so to speak. However it's now used to classify a genre of subject matter in Japanese art styles. Where hentai now stands for anything sexually explicit, "ecchi" stands for more provocative or suggestive themes without all the explicit details.

examples...
http://moe.imouto.org/post?tags=ecchi

http://bupo.jp/ishikei/ (hentai nsfw)

and a personal favorite of mine:
http://www.skullbites.com/

[Earendil]

http://photos.imageevent.com/aljmary/conceptarts/design.jpg


Who drew the one on the left of Anji Mito? Great lighting and pose. Warms and darks.

[Micaiah Nelson]

Well I'll tell you the reason why I don't like some anime. Some storylines are more presented (in the credits). theirs no real buildup. Horrible and lazy animation (you know when the character attacks and those damn action lines come up and next thing you know the guys down). The huge, lazy, and mostly irratating exageration (YU-GI-OH, the show was preety nice though). Other than that I love mangas becuase of the art. Im not a huge fan of western comics unless the work is just as good as the cover (Joshua Middleton) or if Wolverines in it. And I love Okamas art. Even though I dont show it I love the eastern style art better cause its more fun. Ive just kinda lean into the western style cause I'm trying to learn anatomy and also CA had a lot of influence.

I also can't really think of any new american cartoon except Avatar (which sways in the Eastern style). And some of the DC comics like Teen Titan. And Avatar is the best.
------------------
My fav animes that leave all that crap and lazyness out would be Trigun, Ghost in theShell, Phantom Memories kurua, Rhaxephon, the genius Evangelion End and Rebirth, Gundam Wing and most of the series (G Gundam and Seed sucked), Mother Fucking Karas, Kare Kano and Chobits (call me a softy), Dragon Ball before the Cell Saga, also Naruto (mostly the manga but we know some of the episode kicked major animation ass) . And thats all that comes to mind. And read Death Note or I'll write your name down.

[Justin.]

Everybody watch this. Now. (In reference to also Naruto (mostly the manga but we know some of the episode kicked major animation ass
qUgr1Kit69A

[Ilaekae]

"Who drew the one on the left of Anji Mito? Great lighting and pose. Warms and darks."

Earendil, I wish I knew... At my age, I'm not a big "fan" of pop culture anymore, Japanese, US or otherwise, so I'm embarrassed to say that I actually had to look up "Anji Mito" when I first found this pic about a month ago. There was no artist designation, or any reference as to where the poster stole it from (as usual...sigh...). This, and the fact that I don't usually haunt the "games" and "shoot-em-up" forums that the younger people do has left me in the dark on some of the more "modern" stuff. I'm still looking, though, and when I find anything out, I'll post it. I really want to see more of this artist's work.

[HunterKiller_]

Everybody watch this. Now. (In reference to
qUgr1Kit69A

... ... I have to say, I had no respect for Naruto as a cartoon before, most of what I had seen looked like typical mediocre quality Anime, but this totally blew me away. Definitely one of the best pieces of animation I've ever seen.

[dashinvaine]

I vehemently hate anime or manga (damned if I know or care the difference between them), especially as I associate it with bog-standard teenagers cluttring DA up wit it, who can't be bothered to draw properly and are content to follow the fad. It's like a plague. I'd hoped to escape from it coming here! It can be done well, but it is a simplified, Japanese style, and most of the time there is no reason for using it. Rare do you see an anime character who has any real personality, soul, any sense that they feel or suffer. It is a babyish style, too, and what is really stomach churning is the pornographic imagery that we sometimes see produced in a style that is only suitable for childrens' cartoons. I really hate it with venom, I'd banish that stuff from the face of the planet if I could. I'm not condemning cartoons per-se, but it's better to find your own style in your own cultural tradition.

[seba_boi]

^ Yeah, you can definitely surmise that the anime/manga influenced art is an acquired taste... Kinda like silent movies... It's not for everyone for shure, but thank goodness for variety...

Sort of. Ecchi is the Japanese pronunciation of the English letter "H" which in turn stands for hentai or anything sexually related so to speak. However it's now used to classify a genre of subject matter in Japanese art styles. Where hentai now stands for anything sexually explicit, "ecchi" stands for more provocative or suggestive themes without all the explicit details.

examples...
http://moe.imouto.org/post?tags=ecchi

http://bupo.jp/ishikei/ (hentai nsfw)

and a personal favorite of mine:
http://www.skullbites.com/Well, many thanks for the extra info...

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of the really hentai-ish ones especially if they're the cute-sy/chibi-kind (Loli?)... Kinda freaky if you ask me... Although the last one (skullbites) is quite good...

[chazanoble]

There's been quite a few Anime-ish/-esque/-styled/-derivative/
-inspired/-whatever Art Threads lately. And the reactions here sort of baffle me.

Not the wholly justifyable and completely reasonable statement: you have to learn the rules before you can break them. That's just good sense. I'm talking more about the comments that allude to being opinionated against the style simply because it is what it is. And all the mutterings that CA and Anime not mixing well isn't something new, it's just par for the course.

So, what is it about Anime that makes it play so poorly on CA?


I'm not asking this just to stir up a potential Hornet's Nest.

I'm asking because I was planning on including an Anime-styled Heroine in my Portfolio, (the only anime-styled object for the record), just to prove my range of styles can include the current Fad. It makes sense to me, in a strictly Marketing kind of way. But the reactions here are making me second-guess this descion. After all, if a forum full of professionals isn't a good measuring stick for how a Portfolio will play, nothing is.

But before I completely scrap the project, I want to be sure there's something about the style itself (or maybe just the act of going along with Fads? Trying to draw in any style that is labelled "Foriegn"?) that seems to be the source of the Forum's aversion, or is it some other factor coming into play that makes sense on a forum but might not hold true IRL?



I know, there's much potential for flame-age in the subject matter. I'm sorry.
I just don't want to waste my time on something that might not work out, just because I was too scared to ask this.

Zilant, if you feel that piece is one of your strong piece, include it. A good piece is good regardless of the style. If something inspires you, never be afraid to say/show it. Besides, part of life is trying to challenge people's perception of what's good. People who don't like it are speaking from limited exposure to it. They might as well say they don't like animation in general since anime styles varies so much. (We're only talking about all animations coming out of Japan!!!) Either that or they should learn to be more specific with their wordings. It's trivializes some of the amazing work from Japanese animators when they say anime and include all animations coming out of japan.

Here's an artwork of the game I'm playing right now from Japan call Persona 3.
(There was an artbook that came with that game. Although they got some cool stuff in there, wish the artbook was bigger than a playstation gamebox dimension!)

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/129/932312_20060510_screen003.jpg
Here's a bit of one of my favorite animes everyone.

Highly recommend this if people think anime is just the Inuyasha stuff. Also recommend getting it on DVD as youtube does not do it justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npZ77Egwqzk

btw. How the heck do you do the embeded youtube video? I can't get mine to work.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/npZ77Egwqzk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/npZ77Egwqzk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/npZ77Egwqzk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/npZ77Egwqzk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/npZ77Egwqzk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/npZ77Egwqzk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[Hai]

Rare do you see an anime character who has any real personality, soul, any sense that they feel or suffer.
That's the stupidest fucking thing I've read in a very long time.

[chazanoble]

That's the stupidest fucking thing I've read in a very long time.

oh $hiet!..Here comes the flame war....LMAO. Come on folks. Let's keep it civil. There's some things we can pick at with dashinvaine's comment(or anyone elses) so let's try to address those. :) We should welcome people's thoughts even though they differ from ours. I got some things to say but I'm too sleepy right now......maybe after I beat persona 3......ZZzzzzzzzz

[Skogul]

I, myself, have mixed feelings on "anime/manga" styles and the flood of imitation and derivative styles since the anime explosion that started in the mid-to-late 90's.

On one hand, I support it, because I'm a quarter Japanese, grew up in a Japanese household, and had an extremely early exposure to anime and manga when I was a young child. I started drawing both from being inspired by the anime I saw as well as the Marvel comics and cards my mom collected, hoping to sell them for "big bucks" someday. So, thanks to that influence, my work has a very "anime" feel, which sometimes makes me feel like less of an artist because of the aversion a lot of non-asian artists and art students have toward that cluster of styles because of the oversaturation of it in America and beyond nowadays.

I can't blame it, really. Sometimes I cringe when I see deviantart after deviantart of the same, generic, poorly done anime derivative crap. It insults me on two levels... one based on my ethnic background, another on my identity as an artist, since it's those types of images that make the truly talented anime-inspired artists look bad in the general eye of scrutiny amongst their fellow artists.

It's truly a double-edged sword. It's great that it encourages people, especially the younger generation, to be interested in sequential media like comics and manga, and to take a hand at art, but if they're lowering the bar on a style that CAN (although rarely is) be spectacular, is it really that much of a step in the right direction?

[dashinvaine]

If you can boast Japanese heritage, and undestand that culture that gives you good reason to work in that style and do it well. I sense you see where I'm coming from. It's not the real thing that I object to (though it's not my cup of tea) so much as the poor imitation generic rubbish produced by fad-following westerners, often based on copies of copies. No fear of a flame war breaking out, by the way. I'm all for a reasonable argument but I'm not going to sink to trading insults.

[subversive-imaginati]

You can argue any cultural entertainment artwork is boring and souless really.

The Japanese have their angsty heroes with a big sword and a dark past. The pretty boy villains, their annoying female sidekicks, their loveable underdogs, mechs and androids.

We have our muscles of steel super heros with broad shoulders, blunt chins and unspeakably good morals, our gravity defying boobed heroines who are never second to anyone but the main hero, and our cringing/insane but brilliant super villains.

Each side throws up "sports" which breath fresh life into the stale old cliches. But ultimately? People like their cliches.

Also the soul of the asian Manga market is copyright infringement, the amount of Manga-ka's who come from the ranks of artists who produce unofficial comic magazines based on other people's published work is astronomical. Hell even after they've made it big some of them still work on unofficial comics which are often highly sexual in nature.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Anime but it is totally overdone, overblown and overall people are just sick of it. We've had a surfeit of blank eyed half naked anime bimbos and skinny ass more girly than real girls anime guys. It would be the same if the market was absolutely flooded with realism or any other genre of art. People get sick of the same thing over and over again, and once you seen some anime art? You've generally seen a large chunk of it. Even the stuff from the original source? Can be soulless, cliched tripe. Just because it's genuine Anime done by a Japanese person doesn't mean it's automatically good.

It's like an artist on another board I go to, I started off liking his artwork when he started to post it, but he updates every single day with two to three pictures. After about 15 days, I was tired of seeing his work everyday, several months later? I loathe it, because it's the same old thing over and over. It's good art, well done and nicely produced but I've seen his stuff over and over and I'm just sick of seeing it. Had he updated less often I might still look forward to seeing his new pieces but because it was there every single day, I'm all "who cares" about it.

[sumthingwong510]

Looks like the people who have a problem with it really don't have a problem with it so much as it's popularity and the fan art that results from it. It's cool if it's not your cup of tea, but for those that hate it with a passion, don't you think you're letting it get to you too much? If you hold art in such high esteem, you can easily find artwork that interests you with a few clicks here and there online. Some people just see it as entertainment. Why fault people who are doing fan art for fun?

Reminds of the people walking around with a "chip on their shoulder" like the feminist who go around hating all men, or the Commies in Berkeley who hate the U.S., the humanities major(lit, art, philosophy...) who hate the science/engineering majors and vice versa.

Can't we take the high road and help them see things from our angle without patronizing them?

[sumthingwong510]

I, myself, have mixed feelings on "anime/manga" styles and the flood of imitation and derivative styles since the anime explosion that started in the mid-to-late 90's.

On one hand, I support it, because I'm a quarter Japanese, grew up in a Japanese household, and had an extremely early exposure to anime and manga when I was a young child. I started drawing both from being inspired by the anime I saw as well as the Marvel comics and cards my mom collected, hoping to sell them for "big bucks" someday. So, thanks to that influence, my work has a very "anime" feel, which sometimes makes me feel like less of an artist because of the aversion a lot of non-asian artists and art students have toward that cluster of styles because of the oversaturation of it in America and beyond nowadays.

I can't blame it, really. Sometimes I cringe when I see deviantart after deviantart of the same, generic, poorly done anime derivative crap. It insults me on two levels... one based on my ethnic background, another on my identity as an artist, since it's those types of images that make the truly talented anime-inspired artists look bad in the general eye of scrutiny amongst their fellow artists.

It's truly a double-edged sword. It's great that it encourages people, especially the younger generation, to be interested in sequential media like comics and manga, and to take a hand at art, but if they're lowering the bar on a style that CAN (although rarely is) be spectacular, is it really that much of a step in the right direction?

Skogul, don't want to sound mean but you need to "man up". The "poorly derivative crap" you see is no reason for them to extend a negative connotation towards anime.

Look at it from a human perspective. With anime all over TV and the Internet, it's very natural for people to imitate what entertain/inspires them independent of culture. If a bunch of Americans are influence by anime, and they want to draw anime, I say let them. It probably won't look great at the beginning, but whose ever does at the start? If that inspiration lead them to explore more styles and they get really good and do it better than their Japanese counterparts, I say even better.

[AINSI]

i don't see a difference-- kids being influenced to draw at an early age by manga or kids being influenced to draw at an early age by american comic books in the superhero vein. either way, they're learning from faulty, exagerrated anatomy which will be fixed when they're older if they decide to make a career of it and go to art school.

i think it's hard to boast ethnic superiority when it comes to an art style-- but at the same time i can kind of agree with Skogul. People are quick to draw the style but aren't so keen on the mechanics of it. Hell, most people don't realize that japanese comics have a different panel to panel ratio and that they have an additional panel type that doesn't crop up in american comics that much.

manga isn't manga for the style it's done in-- it's manga for the style of storytelling, in the end.

that's what i think, anyways. i think i got off track. :x

[Icon]

I think this discussion is kind of silly and way off track.

Good art is good art no matter the style. It revolves around the same knowledge (the principles and elements of design, perspective and anatomy) and each style has something wonderful to offer.

In all forms of art, if you don't know your basics it won't be a good work of art, or character with emotion, or great panel composition, etc...

This conversation is the entertainment equivalent to abstract vs. realistic, it's a debate on personal preference...It never ends.



Now to the question for the portfolio piece, It shouldn't be about the different styles that you can do, but rather your own style.
If it's a blend of many different styles that you love, than go for it. There are many fantastic artists that are influenced by anime, and apply their extensive knowledge in art and end up with a lovely style. A couple of them you can see right away on the bar at the top. ;p


edit: also, art can be as multi-cultural as it's painter wishes it to be. There's nothing wrong to represent where you come from or your surroundings, just as there is nothing wrong to appreciate other cultures and implement aspects of it into your own art works. It can be dangerous as an artist and a human to shelter yourself from learning about the world you are part of.

[Micaiah Nelson]

Im really in it for the art and the stories. Like any, its just a style. Its not like their many american animation that goes as far as anime goes. So of course as a person who wants a career in animation I stick to anime. And Even before I notice the western style of art or even this website. I was on foriegn art site all day long because to me the eastern style is the most fun style. Its never about correct anatomy its just capturing the anatomical figure and sticking to the style, like what many artist do. And I drew just like those Davientart beginers but as they learn the picture will become more better. Most of our fav and popular games where deriviated from the eastern style; Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, Shadow of the Colossus, and you get the point. ( Devil May Cry has an anime out now same with the FF series but I wouldnt recomend it). Its just a Very popular style of art. And for that kind of art, animation and Books are mediums for that art. Plus its big and popular. Like sponge bob.


------------
I also forget, Samurai Champloo, Full Metal Alchemist, Eureka 7, DN Angel + the manga, Akira, Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, Blade of the Immortal (greatest art in a graphic novel), FLCL, King of Bandits, Kodoma no Omocha (yeah I have a heart), And again the oldest and greatest YU YU Hakusho, Wolfs Rain. And Ill stop right here til next post.

[Skogul]

Skogul, don't want to sound mean but you need to "man up". The "poorly derivative crap" you see is no reason for them to extend a negative connotation towards anime.

Look at it from a human perspective. With anime all over TV and the Internet, it's very natural for people to imitate what entertain/inspires them independent of culture. If a bunch of Americans are influence by anime, and they want to draw anime, I say let them. It probably won't look great at the beginning, but whose ever does at the start? If that inspiration lead them to explore more styles and they get really good and do it better than their Japanese counterparts, I say even better.

I'm not sure what you mean by "man up". I'm not whining or feeling sorry for myself, so I don't get the connotation of that phrase in this discussion.

I was simply discussing my experience with the flood of anime derivatives by westerners following the "anime invasion" of the 1990s, and how it's affected my feelings on a genre and style that are both part of my heritage as well as my own influences as an artist.

I'm not saying it's wrong for people to see it, like it and try to imitate it. That IS natural and IS human, as you said. However, human or not, the fact that anime derivatives are so insanely oversaturating the art world does not lend itself well to making that genre/style look better to scrutiny, as the vast majority of those works are not very original, usually mediocre in quality (or less) and introduce nothing new or interesting to the genre/style as a whole.

Basically, the point is... the good art is good, no matter who draws it, right? The bad art is bad, no matter who draws it, however the bad art is much more common, for the most part. Since the samples casual viewers see of this are more than likely the "bad" stuff, especially on a site like deviantart, that's what is most likely to influence their opinion of anime/manga the most because it's the most concentrated form of it. And, in the end, that makes all artists who work in that style, or something similar to it, look bad in the eyes of the mainstream.

[Duq]

Most of our fav and popular games where deriviated from the eastern style; Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, Shadow of the Colossus, and you get the point.

I think they have strong eastern influences because they are made there. And actually alot of games from Asia use western influences to enhance their games with new and rich ideas, something that really shows in the games you named (one of the main reasons for succes of the first FF games was because it took parts of western culture and introduced it to an audience that didnt had alot of experience with "fantasy")

For a long time cultures have been seperated from each other, and only since recently did they start mixing. Saying that a certain story got asian influences is just silly since it has western, indian, asian, russian and whatnot influences.

And about the animations. Please do your research. There are very good western animation studio's, and there are crappy studio's. But the same goes for asian studios. Especially in series like Naruto the quality difference in animation changes in each scene. You got awesome scenes like the Sasuke scene, and completly lame and lazy scenes.

Just to name a western serie that easily goes as far as most anime series: Dragonhunters from Futurikon.

[Micaiah Nelson]

Dug- No what I was saying that theres not alot of Western animation as for the cartoons you see on t.v.. On adult swim (Cartoon Network) theres only anime.
As for Eastern, isnt India and Rusia part of Asia (Eastern). To clarify what I said if you didnt understand. Anime is a very big thing that its became its own culture. Something the Westerns havent done( except Disney). Yeah they use stuff from other cultures but that happens all the time in every aspect of life. ( there a fricken McDonalds and Starbucks everywhere you go). But thats what I meant it makes it so fun. Seeing characters in french designed armours and stuff like that. But Thats what makes anime so big. ( What I said about Western doesnt goes as far as Anime meaning that its not a cartoon that kids could watch nor understand). Theres not a lot of that at all. I dont want to do a reseach just to watch a western cartoon that goes as far as the anime. I just flip the channel and, Oh look, anime. And some of those Western cartoons that are out doesnt look like the what you see in the western comics. They use the Anime diveratives. I dont why, may be cause its more attractive or thats what the artist prefers or whatever.

Thats also a reason why I stick to the Naruto Manga. But the New series looks ligit now.
-----------------------------------------------------

Since I ran out of animes, heres some links I use spend litteraly spend all day on, Eastern style. ( Now I spend all day on CA)
http://bloodpen.net/docillgun/cgi-bin5/doc/index.php
http://www.skullbites.com/
http://agasang.org/
http://maggi.new21.net/
Heres Okama http://okama.nicomi.com/ub-a.html

[Krigbrann]

I think some of you guys are really examining parts of the Japanese Art Culture like butchers. Japanese and Anime aren't synonymous. Ever seen Yoshitaka Amano? He is one of my favorite artists ever and when it comes to sheer creativity he's difficult to match and surpass. Hes also old. You can't simply look at what you see on TV thats been imported from Japan and think thats the best they can send over. Ever looked at a newer American cartoon? TMNT's on Saturday morning? Good Lord. I thought we were past the eighties. Also try and do yourself a favor and check out "Akira" or "Ghost in the Shell" instead of "Yu-Gi-Oh". Seriously.

All in all the issue that I'm more concerned with is which side can progress farther?

However, dashinvaine's comment about Hentai perfectly describes how I feel, although i don't think it should be whipped of the face of the planet.

[flashrabbit]

Most "anime" that is imported from japan is children cartoons.
And most of it is the same because the audience want it.

People want to see the same stuff over and over again.
It's the same with almost anything, movies, music and books.
I kinda hate when people outside japan says "manga" or "anime",
why not just call it comics and animation/cartoons.

There isnt a manga or anime style, It just happens the majority that sells is the same.
Therefore, overexposed.

[Favila]

to me that manga/anime culture is like pop music. There's bad an good pop music, but it's mostly bad yet most people love it.

[sumthingwong510]

I'm not sure what you mean by "man up". I'm not whining or feeling sorry for myself, so I don't get the connotation of that phrase in this discussion.

I was simply discussing my experience with the flood of anime derivatives by westerners following the "anime invasion" of the 1990s, and how it's affected my feelings on a genre and style that are both part of my heritage as well as my own influences as an artist.

I'm not saying it's wrong for people to see it, like it and try to imitate it. That IS natural and IS human, as you said. However, human or not, the fact that anime derivatives are so insanely oversaturating the art world does not lend itself well to making that genre/style look better to scrutiny, as the vast majority of those works are not very original, usually mediocre in quality (or less) and introduce nothing new or interesting to the genre/style as a whole.

Basically, the point is... the good art is good, no matter who draws it, right? The bad art is bad, no matter who draws it, however the bad art is much more common, for the most part. Since the samples casual viewers see of this are more than likely the "bad" stuff, especially on a site like deviantart, that's what is most likely to influence their opinion of anime/manga the most because it's the most concentrated form of it. And, in the end, that makes all artists who work in that style, or something similar to it, look bad in the eyes of the mainstream.

Thanks for clearing that up bro. Sorry for assuming you were whining.

[Sanny]

I have nothing against manga or animes for like any place with artists there is the good and really bad one, now what really bothers me is when somone here i live desided to makea big epic manga and even made the comic read backward and gonna publish it with a publisher and so it become to me as major nono for that is to go to far, some japanes comics are realsied here with its orginal reading way only for its cheaper to leave it as it is.

The other one is that some companies start milk these kids with "how to be a manga pro" and sell these books or classes with has some teatcher with is a total ignorant ashole that dont even know anatomy himself nor wheight or perspectives, its jsut "i draw manga asa pro" and all go WOAH about it and then as you look closer he is as pro i am in an pro bike racer.

[sumthingwong510]

I have nothing against manga or animes for like any place with artists there is the good and really bad one, now what really bothers me is when somone here i live desided to makea big epic manga and even made the comic read backward and gonna publish it with a publisher and so it become to me as major nono for that is to go to far, some japanes comics are realsied here with its orginal reading way only for its cheaper to leave it as it is.

The other one is that some companies start milk these kids with "how to be a manga pro" and sell these books or classes with has some teatcher with is a total ignorant ashole that dont even know anatomy himself nor wheight or perspectives, its jsut "i draw manga asa pro" and all go WOAH about it and then as you look closer he is as pro i am in an pro bike racer.

I was lost the first time I read manga because I didn't realize the order you have to read in. But it didn't take me long to figure it out and after you get lost in the story, it was as easy as reading American comics.

As for the companies that are milking the manga stream, all I can say is welcome to the world of business. But to give them credit, some of those how to draw manga books weren't bad at all.

[bhanu]

It's like an artist on another board I go to, I started off liking his artwork when he started to post it, but he updates every single day with two to three pictures. After about 15 days, I was tired of seeing his work everyday, several months later? I loathe it, because it's the same old thing over and over. It's good art, well done and nicely produced but I've seen his stuff over and over and I'm just sick of seeing it. Had he updated less often I might still look forward to seeing his new pieces but because it was there every single day, I'm all "who cares" about it.


I dont wuite agree on this one.I have been many artists, but its a treat to watch them grow. And get better.I have got seriously big marko/bumskee/nic/lukias folders ,the pics range in hundred and I , like many cant get enough of these guys.
The analogy just doesnt fit. The marketor industry doesnt get better like a person/artist.The industry rides on mediocrity The safe tried and tested method,I am not saying that most artists are very adventurous, quite the contrary, but yeah there are many who do get better with time.

Back to the topic, I think anime rules, I dont care what anyone has to say.yeah there are many bad , really bad , shitty mangas out there , but its not like every comic europe or america is a marvel(Infact marvel comics suck , barring a few comics its fullof shit).I also think its a matter of taste, to each his own I say.

I really like what Ilaekae said. Insightful words on the disney being influenced by anime.
Much respect to Mr.Ilaekae.

[Sanny]

I was lost the first time I read manga because I didn't realize the order you have to read in. But it didn't take me long to figure it out and after you get lost in the story, it was as easy as reading American comics.

As for the companies that are milking the manga stream, all I can say is welcome to the world of business. But to give them credit, some of those how to draw manga books weren't bad at all.

true true, its still in the name of marketing allso so i think the best thing one can do is to go upp agasitn those witha better product, then again we got manny here and i think that would be a verry intresting book (not only for learning)

[Krigbrann]

Back to the topic, I think anime rules, I dont care what anyone has to say.yeah there are many bad , really bad , shitty mangas out there , but its not like every comic europe or america is a marvel(Infact marvel comics suck , barring a few comics its fullof shit).I also think its a matter of taste, to each his own I say.
Good point, alot of people seem to forget the fact that American comic books are somewhat in a stage of existence that I compare with hair metal. Its flashy, its hip, but its still bloated.

But then again, considering comics as a whole, do you think the best Manga can keep up with the best Comics?

[Kat_Warrior]

I'm glad this topic got brought up. When I first joined CA.org (over two years ago), there seemed to be a big aversion to anime. And to be honest, it annoyed me a lot. I came to wonder why anime/manga got so much crap, but people all but kissed the feet of the DC or Marvel styles. People have their preference - prefectly understandable. But nipping at someone's ass for that preference is just rediculous. I'll admit it up-front - I'm not a big fan of the western superhero comic style. But that's okay. Some people aren't a fan of the generic anime style. That's okay, too!

Different people deliver their art in different styles (though honestly, it doesn't hurt some of us to try breaking out of the box... *cough*yourstruly*cough*). Getting up in their grill about it is pretty darn rude and unacceptable. Making professional, polite suggestions is great! Getting on people's case... not so much.

My pointless $0.02 :D

Anime used to be all I drew, however, and I will confess that it's been a pain in the ass to break out of that pattern. But I did it because I wanted to. Not because someone bitched at me for drawing anime.:yayca:

[BEV]

I guess anime is a good thing if it gets young kids interested in art, it is somthing simple that gets younger ages drawing, which is good. But, i would personally not put in any type of anime character into my portfolio. Anime is just art for the masses, i have never done anime in my life and i never plan to, everyone is different though. I really do have trouble excepting it as art, it is just to unoriginal for me.

[bhanu]

Anime is just art for the masses

I think , its better when you put it this way"fad is the art of masses", any style can work for people, maybe ten years down the line the american stuff will be the rage , then maye those fotonovellas.
I also hate the fact that many people dont go into stuff thats pop because everyones buying it and they think they are different from others.
And also snobby artists/people who dismiss saying they are elite and too good for anime or stuff.I hate biatches like that too.

But then again, considering comics as a whole, do you think the best Manga can keep up with the best Comics?


first of look at all the genres in mangas , so many more , in comics there are genres other than superheroes, but even then the writers and artists most of the time treat them like superhero stuff.
And about the question, I think yeah anime are as good as comics,
Pick any comic/story arc/character/GN/series you think is the best and do some searching and you will definitely find something like that in the mangas.I can bet on it.

[Sentinel.]

Don't you also consider it a little snobby calling people who don't want to draw anime because they don't like it biatches? That is something of an elitist attitude. People have a right to draw/not draw any style they choose, for whatever reasons they choose.

The way I look at it, there is not an "Anime Aversion" on this site. There is a crappy-derivative-don't-know-what-I'm-doing-but-still-think-I'm-hot-shit aversion. Any person who draws in ANY STYLE who has that attitude will catch flak. It just so happens that the majority of them happen to draw anime. BAD anime. I used to draw bad anime. But I knew it was bad, and didn't defend my poor proportions etc. with the same, tired phrase "but that's the style!" Because it WASN'T. And it took a lot of work to get out of the rut I'd drawn myself into. People on this site tell others to put anime away for a while so that they can learn good habits, good proportions, etc. before approaching the style again. Not that they can never draw anime again. It's about being a better artist, personal style preferences aside. Good art is good art. This battle over its popularity is damn pointless.

[Elwell]

The way I look at it, there is not an "Anime Aversion" on this site. There is a crappy-derivative-don't-know-what-I'm-doing-but-still-think-I'm-hot-shit aversion.
And that, my friends, pretty much says it all.

[Ilaekae]

Okay, I'm tired of this shit.

Lets have some fun. I challenge all the geniuses here with time on their hands to recreate a well-known classical piece of art in the style of a Japanese mangaka or anime artist... Take your time... I'm very patient.

[KirbyHead]

I think the picture of Anji Mito may be by Nekkeau. I'm not sure, though.

Okay, I'm tired of this shit.

Lets have some fun. I challenge all the geniuses here with time on their hands to recreate a well-known classical piece of art in the style of a Japanese mangaka or anime artist... Take your time... I'm very patient.

And... what exactly would be the point of this? Just because a classic is well-known doesn't mean it is unanimously agreed on to be good. Certainly, these "masters" are usually referred to as the basis of much of our art, but what would recreating the Mona Lisa or whatever in an anime style prove? Similarly, what meaning is there to Ghost in the Shell, Da Vinci style? I mean, sure, it'd be fun to do, but other than that, it'd just prove that the artist in question can take one form of art and turn it into another. Unless tht challenge was posed for merely enjoyment purposes, and not a way to prove/disprove the superiority of a certain style, in which case I'd rescind my previous statement and say that such a challenge seems like an interesting idea. :D

Me, I enjoy anime and manga. I also enjoy many Western comics. I draw in an anime style, and I am trying to find my own path among all the chaos. I don't believe there's anything wrong with that. But I honestly admit, without anime I and most of the artistically inclined people I know would NEVER have been into art. Does that make us bad artists, that we started out a different way? I don't really think so.

Andy Warhol once said: "Art is anything you can get away with." Granted, he may not be the best person to quote, and that definition may leave a rather open-ended requirement for art, but I choose to interpret it as this: if it's pleasing to the eyes, it shouldn't matter what style it is. I see realism every day: when I wake up in the morning, when I brush my teeth, when I talk to friends, etc. And yet, I don't groan with distaste whenever I see a beautiful portrait done in a realistic style. Rather, I become excited by the sheer beaut of the piece. Similarly, it shouldn't matter how many times one sees any certain style: as long as the artist has managed to pull it off in an aesthetically pleasing fashion, there shouldn't be a problem, regardless of how popular a style is.

Hating something simply because it's popular is like hating the internet because everyone's using it. I mean, if a certain style just doesn't suit you well because you don't find it appealing (or if the artist who drew it did a poor job) is all good and well, but disliking it just because it's gotten a little more than fifteen minutes of fame? Tsk, tsk. Although I can agree that a style can become tiring at some point. (And some styles just don't appeal to me at all, so I can see where some people are coming from).

Essentially, it all boils down to what was said earlier: The way I look at it, there is not an "Anime Aversion" on this site. There is a crappy-derivative-don't-know-what-I'm-doing-but-still-think-I'm-hot-shit aversion.

(arggggh first post here and I'm already writing essays. I need to learn to measure my phrases. :) )

[Ilaekae]

"And... what exactly would be the point of this? Just because a classic is well-known doesn't mean it is unanimously agreed on to be good. Certainly, these "masters" are usually referred to as the basis of much of our art, but what would recreating the Mona Lisa or whatever in an anime style prove? Similarly, what meaning is there to Ghost in the Shell, Da Vinci style? I mean, sure, it'd be fun to do, but other than that, it'd just prove that the artist in question can take one form of art and turn it into another. Unless tht challenge was posed for merely enjoyment purposes, and not a way to prove/disprove the superiority of a certain style, in which case I'd rescind my previous statement and say that such a challenge seems like an interesting idea. "

!. Welcome, Kirby'...

2. Get a sense of humor real fast or I'm not gonna like talkin' to you.

3. What would be the point of this? Well, first off, i wouldn't have to listen to all this fuckin' sanctimonious drivel about western vs Japanese art that seems to seems to go on forever. AND...if I hear someone refer to Japanese art as "anime" one more time, I'll rip their fuckin' lungs out.

Second, it would prove that every dipshit that said the equivalent of "any brat can do that shit" shouldn't open their mouths in public. Of course, those particular people usually have no sense of humor and wouldn't even attempt what I challenged for fear of looking like idiots. I've argued so far that the approaches are equal in validity, but the executions are different, and that there's more to modern Japanese art than just making a bad copy of some hedgehog from some stupid kid's game...and I don't think a lot of the people here are actually capable of that, as good as they think they are with their own western approach.

Third, I thought it would be hilarious as a challenge, with absolutely no redeeming merit other than wasting valuable time. You gotta problem with that, Kirby-san?;)

Oh, and as far as "classic" is concerned, I noticed you mentioned the Mona... Sorry, Paul Klee or one of the Mexican muralists does it for me...though a Japanese take on Calder or Rubens would be pretty funny. I'm thinking "The last Supper" by one one of my hentai artists would be pretty funny, too...not the porn, just the style.

Oh, and my sincere apologies if I sound offensive. Didn't mean it that way. I just don't like people reading all the world's great philosophies into every simple statement I make...pisses me off because I only have three operating brain cells left, and one of them has some really bad batteries...;)

[sve]

Ilaekae, I'm starting to understand your swearing, it's like my husband's... he sits in the car with tightly closed doors and windows and swears at pathetic drivers on the road... they can't hear him, they don't improve a bit after his tirade... but he does it every time with passion... makes him feel better.

[sumthingwong510]

I guess anime is a good thing if it gets young kids interested in art, it is somthing simple that gets younger ages drawing, which is good. But, i would personally not put in any type of anime character into my portfolio. Anime is just art for the masses, i have never done anime in my life and i never plan to, everyone is different though. I really do have trouble excepting it as art, it is just to unoriginal for me.

BEV, what sort of anime have you seen and what sort of art inspires you?

Sentinel13, Bhanu isn't saying anyone who doesn't draw anime are "biatches" but people who think they are too good for it because it's part of pop culture.

Bhannu, you don't like "snobby" artist who think they are too good for anime. I agree with you that their are artist like that or gave that impression when you read the posts but anyone with some common sense would know that is a bunch of bull for some of the reasons listed already. (Besides, I rather have an open discussion, let people show their ideas/thoughts/ignorance and grow from it then closet it.)


Sentinel13, you don't like "crappy-derivative-don't-know-what-I'm-doing-but-still-think-I'm
-hot-shit aversion." That too is understandable as it's hard tolerating an arrogant person for the obvious reason that they are arrogant.

Both of you agree good art is good art regardless of styles and that's the important thing.

[Sentinel.]

Well, first off, i wouldn't have to listen to all this fuckin' sanctimonious drivel about western vs Japanese art that seems to seems to go on forever. AND...if I hear someone refer to Japanese art as "anime" one more time, I'll rip their fuckin' lungs out.

... I've argued so far that the approaches are equal in validity, but the executions are different, and that there's more to modern Japanese art than just making a bad copy of some hedgehog from some stupid kid's game...


I wanted to quote this because I do actually believe this. I don't know if it was clear in my first post, but I don't have a problem with good Japanese art (or anime, but I'd prefer to keep my lungs, thank you :S ). I was addressing the main reason why this topic gets brought up so much. It takes just as much work to do this style well as it does any other, but the key word here is well. Unfortunately, a lot of people use the style as a shield to hard work and core knowledge and give the good art something of a bad reputation. Ultimately I don't think one style is intrinsically better than the other, but simply copying the standard formula for "Japanese art" without an understanding of basic artistic principles was really hurting me, personally, as an artist, and I see the same thing happening to a lot of people - western style too. Just wanted to throw my two cents out there.

Edit: Sumthingwong510 - I see, I must have misread him. Thanks for the correction.

[KirbyHead]

:blahblah:
Unless that challenge was posed for merely enjoyment purposes, and not a way to prove/disprove the superiority of a certain style, in which case I'd rescind my previous statement and say that such a challenge seems like an interesting idea.
I kinda figured it was joke near the end. The internet needs to find itself some sort of way to express inflection besides italics. I swear we'd all understand each other better. You don't really sound abrasive, by the way: it was actually a pretty nice welcome. (And, yeah, I thought it would have been an interesting little challenge. If only there were more than twenty-four hours in a day. :( )

And sorry for the wall of text at every reply. I'm not really all that articulate in real life, so I guess I make up for it on forums by giving really long-winded responses? (And yet you managed to say exactly what I wanted to, in a shorter and much more readable context. That's unfair.)

[Ilaekae]

" :blahblah: "

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Are you sayin' I talk too much, Kirby? :)

Sorry, Sve (and everybody else). I promised I would try and talk nice, but sometimes I forget myself. These discussions on how many angels can have sex with the Oakland Raiders on the head of a pin just annoy the hell out of me after a while.

A handful of people here truly understand what some of us are trying to get across...Japanese art is art. Period. Western art is art. Period. They both serve the same purposes, require the same training and understanding of some rather exotic fundamentals, and end up being equally valid when appropriate to their purpose and setting. Both can be bad, both can be good, and both can sometimes be so beautiful they make you wanna cry.

Disparaging one or the other out of hand is a sign of a close-minded cretin. How can you learn anything when your mind is so full of congealed shit? I've had the thrill of sitting and learning from a four-year-old the correct way to draw a horse, and it involves a lot of blue crayon. Anyone who even reaches for a brown crayon after that is an idiot.

AND...the worst anime ever produced commercially is still better than the best Yogi Bear Cartoon ever produced. Period.


Add: Wait a minute...I might retract that last statement. I seem to vaguely remember an anime about some kid racing in a fancy car, with a monkey and a chick that always tagged along, running on US TV maybe 30 years ago...really sucked big time...

[Farvus]

Anime is just art for the masses, i have never done anime in my life and i never plan to, everyone is different though. I really do have trouble excepting it as art, it is just to unoriginal for me.

Which one? It sounds a bit like - "movies are for masses and are just too unoriginal to me".

I tried drawing anime characters several times to see what will come out and it's not as easy as it seems. It was hard to get the spirit of this style propably beacause it was forced too much. I like watching some anime but I would rather stick to my european heritage when it comes to drawing comic type of art ;)

[seba_boi]

People should realize that there are many levels in the art of anime... By that I mean there's the much more simplified anime style of art that is used in television, OAV, and in movies (that's three levels of design quality right there already--but as far as character designs go, it's all based on the world the anime has created and whether the characters fit on it)... Because they need to animate characters often, intricacy would result to massive tendonitis to the animators... Personally, I'm fond of many anime shows and films... Then there's the videogame art which are generally more delicately drawn and done with more details... And again there are levels there too with production values and character development... It all depends on the world it's being fitted into... I especially get an extra kick when some artists display a knack with both character designs and machinery/industrial designs like Range Murata and Yoshiyuki Sadamoto...

And I have found it the same with Mangas... But it mostly walks a fine line of base between the two end spectrums... I'm not really an expert with mangas so I shouldn't go off to that area...




And as for that I should display some good "anime" artists like Takuji Kawano and Hyung-Tae Kim as some good examples of those whose styles incorporate a more "realistic" ratio towards the human figure... Some of my favourite ladies:

Takuji Kawano - Sophitia (http://i13.tinypic.com/6gilw90.jpg)
Hyung-Tae Kim - Estell (http://i19.tinypic.com/54mx2tv.jpg)
Range Murata (http://i18.tinypic.com/4z0ry1e.jpg)
Tetsuya Nomura - Dominique (http://i12.tinypic.com/4p9rj1g.jpg)



.

[Micaiah Nelson]

Which one? It sounds a bit like - "movies are for masses and are just too unoriginal to me".

I tried drawing anime characters several times to see what will come out and it's not as easy as it seems. It was hard to get the spirit of this style propably beacause it was forced too much. I like watching some anime but I would rather stick to my european heritage when it comes to drawing comic type of art ;)

And Farvus prefers it that way.

If you dont like anime thats good. No one is forcing them on you and if you dont prefer it in your art then dont draw it. Its art. Theres no sad realization to it. Theres no acceptance. People draw this with pencils and there are movies. Its art. Paris Hilton cant sing. She not a siren. But thats still a fuckin music CD in the pop section by Paris Hilton. Dont hate the whole Genre, They are a lot of good singers in that section, just hate the singer. (And cause its Paris Hilton). You may not prefer that Genre but you cant deny there are tallented artist in that genre. And thats all it takes, liking the art. Thats what we get hired for. Good art.

And sorry for the bad metaphor but you get the idea.

[Farvus]

Micaiah Nelson - Wait. Where did I say that I hate the whole genre? The quote above is someone's else opinion.
I'm big fan of Tsutomu Nihei's "Blame!" manga and I also like many series like "Texhnolyze", "Ghost in the Shell" or "Cowboy bebop". I developed my style on different influences for many years and anime is something new to me so it would be hard for me to suddenly switch :).

Besides. I'm very interested in environment concept art and some japanese animation has nicely painted backgrounds. They wouldn't make it without basics mastered so it's all coming from the same root as other art styles.

[Micaiah Nelson]

No Farvus I just used what you what you said as an example. I got the idea that you like anime when you said you tried to draw them but that wasn't your style. Thats why I started a new paragraph. Pretty much what you said. But in detail.
And I hated "Technolyze". But watch Karas.

[Farvus]

Em. Ok. Small misunderstanding.

As for "Texhnolyze". After watching first few parts I didn't like it too but later the story became clearer and much more interesting. I liked the characters and mood of the city. But I understand why some people might hate this anime :).

[Micaiah Nelson]

I'll give it one more try.

I think thats it for this thread.

[sve]

A handful of people here truly understand what some of us are trying to get across...Japanese art is art. Period. Western art is art. Period. They both serve the same purposes, require the same training and understanding of some rather exotic fundamentals, and end up being equally valid when appropriate to their purpose and setting. Both can be bad, both can be good, and both can sometimes be so beautiful they make you wanna cry.
...


that's right! Denying the whole style or genre as like being angry at the entire human race, not being aware that there are very sweet representatives of it between all kinds of people ;) ;) ;). Misanthropy is closed mindedness on its own!
Ahhh, I'm just kidding, you are not a real misanthrope, you are just pretending you are...it's probably fun to play with you sitting on the floor together building castles from cubes... I suspect you would be generous when stuck with me in one sandbox as well.

[pencilkiller]

Anime is just art for the masses, i have never done anime in my life and i never plan to, everyone is different though. I really do have trouble excepting it as art, it is just to unoriginal for me.


Everytime I see a comment like this, my heart sinks. I slave over the drawing board for at least 10 hours a day, and being told what I'm drawing is not art--that's a bit unfair. As a professional manga artist, I take it personal when u say all of a certain medium, such as anime, isn't art.

The production of manga (and it's animation counterpart "anime") requires creativity, skill and all the other processes that other art forms require. To say manga is not art doesn't make much sense.

But I do agree copying does not equal art, so I'm not referring to those crappy-derivative-don't-know-what-I'm-doing-but-still-think-I'm-hot-shit copies as real anime. :)

[Gunther409]

I read about a page and a half of this debate (i know, I'm a slow reader gimme a break.) and felt obliged to give my own two cents worth here.

First, of course there is going to be bad anime artists, but they're probably just starting, must we be so harsh? I know when i first came here my art was bad, if I'd have been told what I was doing wasn't even real art I might have just quit. But instead I was given honest crits of my work, people even gave websites for me to look at. This gave me the tools I needed to improve and I worked really hard to do so (I'm still improving, but I'm reasonably sure I'm better than when I started.) To just blindly hate a style because it's popular is a terrible thing.

Secondly, I'm hearing a lot of Eastern this and western that. Honestly, art is visual and therefore crosses such superficial boundries -- it's either good or it isn't. (that's of course up to the viewer to decide)

Thirdly, if music is a collection of notes and a sentence is a collection of words, then it only stands to reason art is a collection of colors. Anime is art, those who refuse to accept that are bigoted. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot)

That being said I'm not asking you to like it, I'm not even asking you to not hate it. All I want is recognition of it as an artistic form. People who like anime right now probably won't be over 20 years old, to ostracize them now could hurt the art community in the future. --They'll get better-- but only after they've had time to improve and only if they're given better crits than "Don't draw anime"

The final thing I want to touch on are the people who produce amateur work and won't listen to criticism on the grounds that "they rock"...yeah I hate them too.

[Dreoilin]

Well I wasn't intending for my very first post on this site to be in this thread but I couldn't help it. I saw this
Lets have some fun. I challenge all the geniuses here with time on their hands to recreate a well-known classical piece of art in the style of a Japanese mangaka or anime artist... Take your time... I'm very patient.
and had to join in. It's funny but that was actually my senior thesis art show in college lol. :bashful: So I thought I'd share two of those pieces just for the heck of it. (shouldn't have to add this but they are from Michelangelos Sistine Ceiling) My thesis was on trying to prove that anime style art is totally valid as an art form- and I succeeded with my art teachers anyway. My art history teacher even bought one lol.

[CainDraka]

Thanks you for this thread! I've only read most of the first page and some of the last couple posts, but this such a good source of ideas and common sense. Not only is this perfect for a research essay I'm working on but now I'm a little less petrified of actually posting my art on here. I've had an account on here for a little while, but due to all of what I've heard of CA shooting down anime I've never actually posted anything yet. I'm still content with using polykarbon and deviantArt for now though until I feel I have good quality art to post here as well.

[Caligula Jones]

Anime (and hentai and manga), in my opinion, is a matter of taste. I know some people that like it for the art style, some for the animation, and yet others for the stories. I like to consider all three aspects. I'll watch an anime if the story grabs me and I like the art style. Not all anime does this for me and I think there is a great deal of adversity in anime.

That being said, I do consider anime to be the following:
Simplified? Yes
Simple to draw? No.
I look at pieces like Miyazaki's Princess Mononoke (http://www.princess-mononoke.com/) and Spirited Away. The animations are smooth and top notch and I think the art direction and style is fantastic. I've often thought that most higher-end anime productions blow the doors off anything Disney ever produced (back when they were still doing cartoons, that is).

One thing I've thought while reading this thread was 'Where do artists like Genndy Tartakovsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genndy_Tartakovsky) fit in?" (He did Samurai Jack among others.) I think if you want to draw the "trendy" style, you need to look at the retro stryle cartoons like Samurai Jack. I have two kids, 5 and 3, I watch alot of disney channel cartoons. The retro-style seems to be their style of choice lately for some of their uber-popular series. Kim Possible is one example.

So, to go waaayyy back to the original question Should you put a piece of anime art in your portfolio? I guess I'd have to see the piece to give a full answer on that. If the piece looks like thousands of other fan-boy produced material (and I'm NOT saying you have "fan-boy" skills...that's what my stuff looks like. :wink: ), then I might suggest you pass on it. But if you can produce an anime piece that is simple, in the spirit of anime, yet dynamic, detailed and interesting, then I say go for it.

My 2 cents. Well...maybe more like 3 or 4.

[zypher18]

I say, if you want to show a company you are diverse in styles, it'd be better to invent a style all your own. It's not usual for a professional to have multiple portfolios. One on backgrounds, one on concept art, one on animation, etc. Just look at your audience and show them what you expect they'd want to see. Don't show Disney anime, but show your anime to a company known to produce anime.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I just put anything I like in my portfolio. It's good to show you have width, especially if you rely on freelancing like I do. Also, sum is greater than the parts, so you can benefit a lot from being able to handle the emotive range present in some 'manga' (aka comics). It's amazing really, with just a few (well placed) lines you can draw the psychological state of a person, and that skill is just as important as being able to draw how we look on the outside. We're psychological creatures too, so maybe a simple "chibi" drawing is far more realistic than a static pinup by Bouguereau or whomever. Well, apples an oranges, etc.

[SigonWulf]

You go to your local book store, walk immediately to the manga aisle, spot an awesome looking manga you've seen for the first time. You pick it up and start reading.

You instantly recognize the beautiful unique art style on the front. It has a great warm feeling to it and you fall in love with it on the spot. Reading the manga you realize it has a great entertaining story filled with a great cast of characters.

You read the manga in full unable to put it down loving every second of it. You look back at the shelf and notice volume 2, but before you pick it up you gaze back at the cover to see a typical American name "John Smith."

Frantically you search for the authors biography in the back of the manga to find out he is indeed a full blooded Caucasian American born and raised.

Do you smile and continue to read volume 2 or do you throw the book down in disgust?


Sadly I've come across a good amount of manga-fans who would throw the book down in disgust. Simply because the author was not Japanese.

[pencilkiller]

Sadly I've come across a good amount of manga-fans who would throw the book down in disgust. Simply because the author was not Japanese.

That's probably summary up my experience...not mine actually, it's my writer's experience, but I also feel pretty sad about it.

My writer is working full time at Borders and he is in charge of the manga section. And here is what happens in real life a month after our book comes out:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just the other day I had just clocked out and was about to walk to my car when I noticed someone in the manga section READING the back cover of Rhysmyth! I walked over nervously thinking about something "slick" to say but before I could say anything she turned to her friend who was checking out the graphic novels section and said,

"This is HORRIBLE! This is worse than that samurai crap you read! Now they've got one about DDR."

I stopped. So did my heart. Then I died. Then I died again from embarassment.

What sucked was the judgment call pre-reading! But I don't think that girl was a manga fan to begin with.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually I don't mind people call my art crap (because now I regret some of the drawing.) But at least, I think they should not judge it by we are not Japanese, the concept of the story , and further more; even before reading it.:[

As for the portfolio, I have two different portfolios, one with traditional drawing and one with sequential art only. And depends on the clients, I will show them different portfolio when interview. Though you can always give them your website link if they ask for more.:rendered:

[Micaiah Nelson]

Sadly I've come across a good amount of manga-fans who would throw the book down in disgust. Simply because the author was not Japanese.

WTF, Its Manga. :nohope: Not the great Gatsby or The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. What If his name is Sato Morioka from Chicago. This Discusion ended long ago. Next time post in the more recent Anime thread.