End of an Era

[Tedsuo]

I've known about this for a while, but this is the first article I've read on it:


http://www.mouseplanet.com/david/dk030814.htm



The part that really gets me is how 2d as a medium is taking the blame for this. In two years when their first boring, sappy 3d film dies at the box office, what will they blame then?



-T

[jwo]

the streets fill flow with blood tonight :evilbat:

[Pencil Soldier]

Never liked Disney anyway..

[Sammy]

Yea.. this is usually a trend.. the big top executive guys (with no taste) take controll over everything and cause it all to die (and subsequently give Disney a bad name).. once that takes place - they give artists total controll... and then the artists bring back the money ('cause they know what they're doin')
It's a never ending cycle that happens to just about every company eventually...

Disney was about to cancel 2d animation once.. so they handed controll over to the artists.. that then created the amazing "Lion King" and brought the name back... *Puts in his cd of the amazing Zuloo music*
since that it hasn't gotten any better...

I do however think that Silver from Treasure Planet was one of the most well executed characters to date ... I loved that bastard....
I just hope their reign of terror (in the form of crappy sequals to legendary films) ends soon....

[Fatesailor]

The things written in this thread reminded to me an old film of Disney, the one which has to do with the childhood years of king Arthur. Its title was 'the sword in the stone', as far as I remember. This movie seemed to me as a masterpiece regarding the virtues of 2D hand drawing. The pencil lines of its drawing style were so free, tender and elegant... The 2D in all its innocence and glory...

It is this tenderness, lightness and elegance (the fragile, humane element of the 'hand-made' maybe) which is lacking in today's 3D mixed 2D animation movies.

Anyway, 2D and 3D are different things (it is not to blame 3D -let think the 'monsters inc' for example, it is a great work) and they need to be seen as so. Each of them has its own beauty and value. But, really, this prevailing nowadays notion that everything must be mixed with computerized approaches is a problem. Makes things somehow harsh and barbarous. I think when the present enthusiasm with the abilities which the computers offer will come to an end the whole tendency will collapse. At least, let hope that it will be so:-) Because looking at the other sides of the 'side effects' of our society's technological progress leaves not, unfortunately, so much space to be wholehaeartedly optimist.

[GhostofMacbeth]

I had sort of stopped watching a lot of the Disney things because of the music. Point blank. The stories and things were also going increasingly downhill and were playing more and more to the child and less and less to serving both the adult and child and making a good story. Plus they haven't done an original idea in a long time. But it is a shame that bland stories have closed the doors on good animation.

[otis]

I think Disney is missig the big picture. Pixar is ONLY successfull becuase they emphasise STORY over everything.
Pixar is the first to admit that animation, design, the computer don't matter at all if there is not a good story.
I don't think Disney realizes this. They are just panicing about Pixar's success, and now making HUGE mistakes.

Ever Since old man Disney died, this company has been going down the shitter...nobody at Disney can visionize or even attempt to be a visionary for the company.

Idiots:bash:

[ChadTHX1138]

I know I am throwing a big stone here and probably starting a huge debate but....

I personally think it is the artists in the animation industry that have killed 2D animation. I was talking to an Art Director this last week that works on a saturday morning cartoon that isnt all that popular, about the going rates on UNION animators, Story board artist etc. It is sooooo astronimical that no wonder the market is dying, the $ asked for in a month is larger than most people make. I find it amazing that it costs more to make a 2d animated movie in the U.S. than a live action big budget movie. So here are all these artists in the industry wondering why they arent working and that studios are going over sea's to have thier shows and movies made. HELLOOOOOO learn to be humble and not so greedy folks, because a good reasonable decent salery can still be had in the animation industry. This country is losing more and more jobs...:bash: Would you rather be working and earning a living at what you do or not?

[talos72]

As a member of Local 839 (animation artist's guild), I have to say every right the animation artists have as members of the union has been obtained through years of hard work and endless battles with managements in studios who wanted to use artists as chattel. I don't know what kind of pay quotes the director gave you, but most animation artists are not rich or greedy; they believe they should be paid accordingly for their skills and creative input. Nevermind the fact that the studio may go on to make many times what the artists got paid. Many animation artists do not get paid royalties or residuals, unlike many live action actors. Essentially the artists create properties for studios which the studios can use for as long as they wont to make money from over and over, not the artist.

So don't blame the artists for trying to make a living in a greedy system. The bloated budgets on projects is not because of the artists, but terrible managerial decisions, bloated executive and CEO paychecks. Just as an example, there are currently 20 vicepresidents of animation at Disney, this at the same time they have laid off most of their talent-- the artist, the bread and butter of the company. Why? What the hell do 20 vice presidents do-- line their pockets. No, don't expect the artists to be the wipping boys for studio screwups. Don't blame the artists for trying to eek a living in a system where the odds are heavily stacked against them. But that is ok, because times are changing, and artists will be making their own way. Enough of having to scramble for crumbs thrown at artists by the studio system.

If by trying to keep work in the states, you mean having to work endless hours without compensation and no decent healthcare just to please a studio executive's bottom line, then forget about it.

If anyone cares, you should go to http://www.animationnation.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=1 (www.animationnation.com)

At Animation Nation, you can hear all about the studios and the animation industry from the very artists that have worked at Disney, Warner and all the studios. People from Disney, ILM, Pixar and the likes frequently post there, and it is an invaluable resource.

[Sammy]

I think that everyone in this thread has extremely valid points.... the 2d situation is so complex.... almoast a century of traditional animation is evolving into more effecient less costly forms of animation..

does this strip it of soul?

This lack of 2d is also shown in videogames today .... 2d games never got to evolve into their full potential..
we have DVD technology now (large amounts of storage)... we have the ability for the next Final Fantasy to be played out COMPLETELY with Amano's artwork...

[Elwell]

Originally posted by otis
I think Disney is missig the big picture. Pixar is ONLY successfull becuase they emphasise STORY over everything.
Pixar is the first to admit that animation, design, the computer don't matter at all if there is not a good story.


Amen, brother.

Has anyone noticed that, despite the fact that Finding Nemo is one of the most breathtakingly beautiful animated movies ever made, no one talks about that? The press focus was almost exclusively on the story development process, not the technology. Whereas with Disney's Tarzan, for example (and who was the genius who greenlit that idea?), all we heard about was Deep Canvas, Deep Canvas, Deep Canvas.

[I.was.ink]

The only difference between Disney and the Titanic is that the Titanic had an orchestra!Ó

[Sammy]

I can't deny the fact that I'm willing to pay to see eye candy .. as much as I am to see a story..
Tarzan was freakin gorgiouse!

but when the two are combined seamlessly (Finding Nemo) is when you see magic..
I think Disney will figure it out.. they are in fact the ones that are producing Pixar's work.. so they are comming to know what makes a film enjoyable for a wide range of audiences..

2d will find a way to succeed .. I can't wait 'till more abstract animation is presented.

[bizarre]

i just watch disney movies so i can find all the subliminal sex and death messages. go through it frame by frame, you'll see it..

I really don't have a leg to stand on, here, because i'm not in the business, i'm not talented, and i'm not a big movie-goer.

Pink Floyd's video, Radiohead's music videos, and the todd mcfarlene videos made for Korn and Pearl jam are what i'd hold up if i ever had to support 2d art.

Disney? well, to tell you the truth i haven't watched any disney movies since the days of steamboat willie and goofie/pluto. I've been to disneyland, gone on the It's a Small World ride, and got scared (was 16).

[jmascho]

ugh, so lame. Something as simple as writers...and story development...WHY?

[MGH]

Back in the day, I went for an interview with Disney when they were opening studios in Toronto and Vancouver. I had a good job at the time and was doing it for the wtf factor. Even though it went ok I walked out of that interview with a weird feeling in my gut.
Suffice to say I don't mind a company making the bottom line their primary goal, but I can't stomach a company (ie Disney) who says they're all for the 'art' when really all they care about IS the bottom line. Disney among other things made big talk about their investments up here and not surprisingly both studios were closed within 5 years.
Disney's weird.

[Fatesailor]

I know this takes the issue to sociology, philospophy etc but I think it is something must be expressed. The end of 2D (which undoubtedly conveys the sense of the tenderness which the 'organic-biologic' in nature human hand has) is something to be seen in the perspective of a general tendency of our 'modern' society. The 'rise of machines' (of the 'non organic-bilologic') -as the known movie as a symbolic allusion denotes- is maybe the outward expression of a 'hardening of hearts', a situation which all our present society is entangled in. The worship and adoration of power and violence is something which has become a routine. Think, for example, of what comes to mind when we think of Sf and Fantasy: swords, guns, warriors, blood.

It is not to astonish so much that Disney is shifting towards the 'machine', towards the 'metallic'. After all it is a demand coming from the side of the 'spectator'. It is a demand of the very present times.

[Tedsuo]

But see Fatesalior, that's just it. The blame is being put on the audience, claiming their lack of interest in 2d as the reason they are switching to 3d. But it's simply not true. Spirited Away was very popular, and even took the oscar last year. Miyazaki in general is having a resurgence in this country, and most of his films are about as old school 2d as you can get. The audience will always want to see something good and entertaining. They're not picky!!!

[Erik]

Personally i get suspicious at every announcement in movies (or advertisement) that emphasise technology over content as it is might be an example of the 'easy way out'.

Emphasis on technology (or special effects, whatever) is in most cases only driven by the fact that it will trick the audience into beleiving they will get something to see worth their money. Something that is reliable and easy to obtain as a movie producer compared to the elusive concepts of quality, style and story.

If i had a movie investment company and were asked to fork over 200 million for a production i too might be driven to ask for warranties that audiences will come, and the most reliable things to do that with are still 'past performance' (sequels), 'new technology' (easy to build marketing around) and 'expensive actors' (a form of past performance). Oh and of course the catharsis/happy end thing...

I think it's unavoidable. And it's also the way in games industry: that is highly technology driven because then you can give your potential clients numbers they can compare (two million polygons on screen! try that for competition). And even though these numbers say nothing on the game experience people still go for it, since people will always rather compare (even meaningless) numbers than base their decision on an expectation of quality... I mean, don;t you want SOME security if you're about to fork 80$ for a game you've not played yet? If you want to influence the mind of a person on a decision, give some random numbers that work your way and seem vaguely related to quality.

Sorry, rambling... E.

[Fatesailor]

Of course, you are right Tedsuo, the blame is not to be put altogetherly to the audience but I think these things go as a pair. There is an interaction between them. The audience too is not so 'innocent'. The tendency is towards achieving 'power' and not 'beauty'. It can be said that 'beauty' too is utilized as a means to achieving 'power'. Today's mentality is a mentality of 'force' and 'power', is not a mentality of 'beauty'. Although there are still some exceptions. When I took in video to see the 'Monsters inc.' I expected to see some junk, regarding its story and scenario. I took it for seeing only its designing. But when I saw the character of this gigantic, hairy blue guy (I do not remember now his name) I became, really, astonished. I thought there is still hope. I do not know the animator who gave life to this character but I felt that he deserves a heartily congratulation, if not for something else, only for having protected in his heart such tenderness and loveliness so as to be able to 'incarnate' them in a cg film.

Sure, there is hope but is necessary to keep awake an awarness of what is going on. And such discussions as is the present one, although seemingly insignificant, are very precious.

You say 'in this country' meaning U.S.A. as I undersand. I am from Europe. Do not despair, in your country despite the prevailing of a 'brutality' in general mentality there is still some inner craving for innocence. Here in old 'delicate' Europe there is an irony aginst every expression of innocence, coming out of a deep despair, of course. Think that such characters, as is the aforementioned blue hairy guy, are perceived as, merely, naive and childish, for example.

[Erik]

Fatesailor, you've said it all.

[otis]

I just posted this new thread: The mouse is headed for the TANK