before they were pro's

[slooie]

im just wondering if any of you godly pro's out there have any work scanned from when u were a lil baby artist... and a lil inspirational info to go along with its always nice...


also check out my sketchbook by clicking here. i dont get many visitors .

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95804

[HunterKiller_]

Yeah, I would like to see that too.
Hard to imagine that the pros weren't always pros.

[Spade]

i have a folder of some old stuff by wes burt, incredible to compare to where he is nowdays. hmmm.. i dunno if its ok to post old stuff of someone elses,,,, :$

[Jonas Heirwegh]

Whats wrong with sharing some art..
Put that stuff from wes burt in a folder online. I would love to see it!

[archipelago]

heres the folder that Spade mentioned: http://www.ville-ericsson.se/misc/wesburt.zip
pretty much every Wesley Burt image i've been able to find :P

[Spade]

sweet that folder is pure liquid wonderment

[subversive-imaginati]

Whats wrong with sharing some art..

Well for one if it's not your artwork, it's redistribution without the copyright holder's permission. Admittedly that's being a tad pedantic over copyright law but it's still technically a violation.

I'd point out to anyone tempted to post old art not belonging to them, would you like it if someone dug up old art you'd deleted from your site and reposted it without your permission?

I know I wouldn't like it, my old art I took down for a reason. I don't want anyone but me reposting it if for some reason it's wanted. There's plenty of pros here, if they want to show how their early art looked then they'll show it. Otherwise, I'd suggest either asking them for permission prior to posting old work of theirs or not posting it.

[Elwell]

There's plenty of pros here, if they want to show how their early art looked then they'll show it. Otherwise, I'd suggest either asking them for permission prior to posting old work of theirs or not posting it.
Seconded. I was actually considering maybe digging some things up. Now, not so much.

[slooie]

hmm well anyone know any threads of pros old art that theyve put up to give ppl inspiration possibly :/

[Flake]

Yes, do a search for "Mindcandyman".

[Spade]

Seconded. I was actually considering maybe digging some things up. Now, not so much.

please do! id love to see some.

Also, seeing artists styles develop and improve is the most inspiring and motivating thing ever. But i understand that one needs to ask,,, which is what i was wondering in the first place

[Magic Man]

pick up Mythology by Alex Ross, has some cool old stuff from him in there.

[armando]

I love how most pros never show their old shit, it's so helpful for beginners.

I'll second MagicMan on the Mythology suggestion, that book got me back into art, why? Because it shows his early work, stuff from his childhood and teenage years.

[subversive-imaginati]

I love how most pros never show their old shit, it's so helpful for beginners.

The only "help" it gives beginners is some encouragement after all if someone like madly famous skilled artist used to suck then it gives them the impression that anyone can obtain that level of skill. Which is really quite unrealistic, I know artists who've been drawing for decades who are still producing work nowhere near professional level despite proclaiming themselves to be a professional artist. Skill isn't guaranteed to develop eventually.

How can I put it this way? Old art is like baby photos or that embarassing story your mother insists on telling to all your teenaged friends. Pro's want to show what they can do now not how bad their art was ten years ago.

[Ellingsworth]

it gives them the impression that anyone can obtain that level of skill. Which is really quite unrealistic

Actually, I would have to disagree, if someone is dedicated enough and really wants to improve, then they will. They also have to be learning the right stuff. If what you said was true, then there's really no point of this website.

I think Elwell said this once, to a similar question. "You better hope not, or we are all just wasting our time." I have it quoted badly or wrong, not sure. I can't remember.

[subversive-imaginati]

I again have to disagree, it's true they aren't common but people do exist who can work their rears off and still not have the slightest aptitude for art. Hell even in writing there have been hopeless cases of people who've known every single obscure grammar rule, known everything they can possibly learn about writing and still been terrible writers. One women I heard about, was eventually turned away because there was nothing more that she could be taught and she was still a poor writer.

For example, did you know some people have no aptitude for handwriting? Strange but true, I know one person who after ten years and constant effort still can't handwrite clearly and legibly. It took the person several years just to figure out how to form the letter N. Yet while some people would insist that everyone can learn to write letters, my personal experience proves that not everyone can learn to form a letter out of lines.

Everyone's an individual after all, it's like rolling your tongue, some people can and some people can't. Effort doesn't always result in success every single time, pretending that effort = results is a huge fallacy. If someone wants it and is prepared to work for it, all they get is a chance at improvement, if they're one of those who will still be drawing stick figures after ten years of life drawing then all the effort in the world won't help them improve.

There most assuredly is a point to this site, to help those who can and those who want to improve. Just because there is a small percentage of people who simply cannot learn something does not mean that you should overlook the fact that a large percentage can achieve at least a minimum level of skill in it.

[ivow]

subversive-imaginati - I think you may be right about the conceptual side of art and writing, but the equivalent of grammar in art is the line, colour and form of the piece.

The fact is, people CAN learn how to draw well, just like they can learn good grammar. Neither means youll produce a masterpiece.

[Jonas Heirwegh]

I again have to disagree, it's true they aren't common but people do exist who can work their rears off and still not have the slightest aptitude for art. Hell even in writing there have been hopeless cases of people who've known every single obscure grammar rule, known everything they can possibly learn about writing and still been terrible writers. One women I heard about, was eventually turned away because there was nothing more that she could be taught and she was still a poor writer.

For example, did you know some people have no aptitude for handwriting? Strange but true, I know one person who after ten years and constant effort still can't handwrite clearly and legibly. It took the person several years just to figure out how to form the letter N. Yet while some people would insist that everyone can learn to write letters, my personal experience proves that not everyone can learn to form a letter out of lines.

Everyone's an individual after all, it's like rolling your tongue, some people can and some people can't. Effort doesn't always result in success every single time, pretending that effort = results is a huge fallacy. If someone wants it and is prepared to work for it, all they get is a chance at improvement, if they're one of those who will still be drawing stick figures after ten years of life drawing then all the effort in the world won't help them improve.

There most assuredly is a point to this site, to help those who can and those who want to improve. Just because there is a small percentage of people who simply cannot learn something does not mean that you should overlook the fact that a large percentage can achieve at least a minimum level of skill in it.

I really disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_ppzoN8j-4

Everyone can get to a professional level, the people who fail after ten years are learning the wrong way period. Effort + not giving up = result, every single time.

"If someone wants it and is prepared to work for it, all they get is a chance at improvement"
If you work for it you WILL improve...

[Ellingsworth]

I really disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_ppzoN8j-4

Everyone can get to a professional level, the people who fail after ten years are learning the wrong way period. Effort + not giving up = result, every single time.

"If someone wants it and is prepared to work for it, all they get is a chance at improvement"
If you work for it you WILL improve...

Exactly.

[dose]

I agree that anyone can get there if they work hard enough and intelligently enough.

I heard an old story somewhere that goes like this:

An eager student wants to become a master carpenter and approaches a very well known and respected master carpenter in a nearby town. The carpenter tells the student that it's going to take a lot of hard work- more than he probably expects. But the student is determined and enthusiastic and says he'll do anything. So the carpenter accepts him into his workshop and informs the student that he will start with the very basics- sawing wood. He gives the student a handsaw and about 500 pieces of scrap wood, and tells him to cut every piece in half, but no instruction or demonstration beyond that. Brimming with excitement, the student stays up all night sawing with great dedication and determination, but when the master carpenter arrives at the workshop the next morning, the student has hardly cut one board in half. Perplexed, the master carpenter asks the student to demonstrate what he spent the whole night doing. Eager to impress, the student sits down on the floor next to the saw horses and places the board between his legs. He places the wrong side of the saw on the wood and begins to move it back and forth furiously...

[subversive-imaginati]

I know artists who've had help by the bucketload, they've been shown the way to improve, they profess to be eager to learn. Unfortunately as the saying goes? You can't polish a turd. Their art is still awful and judging from their lack of improvement in several years will remain awful unless a miracle occurs.

As nice as it is to think that anyone can learn art, it's simply not feasible. Indeed it can be taught to pretty much everyone but there will be a small percentage of people who have more enthusiasm than aptitude. My own sister is one of them and I've encountered other examples.

It's the same with handwriting which is an art onto itself. Some people simply don't have any skill with it no matter how hard they try or how much they practice. I don't get why people think art is somehow magically immune from being something some people just don't have any aptitude for.

[dierat]

Wow, this thread really went off-topic, aye? ;D

Personally, I think it's true that ppl have areas that they're just better at than other subjects, but this has to be an exaggeration:

I know artists who've had help by the bucketload, they've been shown the way to improve, they profess to be eager to learn. Unfortunately as the saying goes? You can't polish a turd. Their art is still awful and judging from their lack of improvement in several years will remain awful unless a miracle occurs.

Obviously not everyone can achieve the superior quality of art that can be seen on conceptart's front page, but yeah, anyone can improve their art to at least to a stage of decency. The question, therefore, is what does the artist need in order to improve. Sometimes it takes the right teacher. Sometimes it takes the right tools. Sometimes they're just trying too hard. And sometimes the learning artist is just not seeing what is wrong with their art (ie they think they're doing incredible work and don't see their own pitfalls, like chasethehedgehog). I think we'd have to see the specific example to determine exactly for what reason an artist is not seeing progress.

[subversive-imaginati]

Still an interesting conversation.

I don't have any online examples since the most of that cases I know are offline ones and the couple online, well I'm not going to embarass them by calling them out amoungst other reasons.

We're all individuals, Some people cannot form letters, the drawing of a letter is no different to drawing a person or another form, if some people cannot draw letters then it also follows that some people must be unable to depict a form on a 2D surface.

Some people are no good at certain sports and ace at others, some are great at chemistry and yet fail at home economics. Some people struggle with mathematics yet ace woodwork. Attempting to learn the skills is only half the struggle. You can teach someone to parrot all the terms and rules, but if they can't understand how to apply them? It does them no good at the end of the day. I think there must be a certain amount of aptitude for something to make them capable of learning more. Not to be confused with talent since talent and aptitude are two different things.

[Jonny Dark]

I think this thread turned into a great debate even if it went off topic.

I'm of the school that anyone can learn to be good at art. You could start at any age and improve with the right teacher, the right setup and most importantly, the right state of mind. I think what the argument here is essentially "sure they can learn the basics but will they be creative?" and that's totally up to the individual i think.

I think my mom kept some of the art i did as a kid. I drew all the time though so she probably didn't keep much... i t hink it's facinating how art develops in children... how everyone does the stick figure family in front of a house... then in about grade 6 kids want realism or nothing and try and figure out perspective... (speaking of which does anyone else remember the imluminating moment they learnt perspective? i do it was such a break through... i was trying to draw a truck on a ramp in 3d and it suddenly hit me that the ramp and truck had a different vanishing point than the rest of the piece. it was so awesome)

this article might be interesting http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=406

[huhwhat]

Saw this while browsing through the forum and I thought I might contribute something to the on-topic discussion:

arcipello's dA Gallery (http://arcipello.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=96)

Check out his older stuff, like back in '02, and compare it with the newer ones, and you'll see a world of difference, although it is undeniable that the potential was there in his earlier works. Gives you hope to carry on, doesn't it? Sure did for me.
...
As to the off-topic discussion, I'm sorta on the fence. I can see how enticing the notion that one can improve to a level close to the pros with hard work and dedication, but then I can also see that people have different levels of affinity towards making art, like any other skill. I fervently wish that the latter is true, though instinct points to the latter as truth. Okay, so I'm leaning towards 'not all people make good art' side.

Hope - it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness. - The Architect (from the Matrix)

[subversive-imaginati]

Creativity is not the same as aptitude. If I'd meant creativity, I'd have used the word creativity. One of the people I know has bucket loads of creativity if fairy princesses are involved. :P

My point is there are some people who no matter how much you teach them will never ever show aptitude for certain subjects. I'm related to at least one. As a five year old she drew like a 5 year old, as a 21 year old, she still draws like a 5 year old.

She's had way more art classes than I have had. She's actually got the qualifications I didn't get due to poor health as well as more qualifications on top of that. She has encouragement and a lot of help to get better, she has enthusiasm by the bucket load, she wants to be just as good as me but that doesn't mean she can even get off the starting blocks. The teachers might as well try to teach a warthog to be a ballet dancer. It would probably yield more results.

Everyone can be offered the tools, everyone can try to learn. But for a small minority? They simply have the artistic aptitude of a brick. Don't get me wrong, "anyone can learn it" sounds nice and applies to most people but in my experience it's not wholly true.

As for perspective, can't say that it happened to me that way, but then my art teachers were pretty much used to me doing things that "just seemed right". Perspective just seemed logical to me. But then I ended up doing my own thing in art class a lot simply because I had a grasp of the basics that far outstripped my class mates.

[Bhrazz]

I was looking foward to see some of the pros 1st drawing...

But since the discussion got hottie i'll say what I have to say.

The only "help" it gives beginners is some encouragement after all if someone like madly famous skilled artist used to suck then it gives them the impression that anyone can obtain that level of skill.
Now I can tell your wrong on that. I remember looking at Lukias sketchbook and when I saw some his old sketch it did something ''BOOM'' ohhh like that! I understood something there. It might not be the same for everyone and this was the one time it did for me. But yes, it might give confidence to some other people.

As for the futur, learning something with succes is just like my sister told me.

''If you punch a concrete wall you gonna hurt your self many times, but eventually with patience if you keep punching it, is gonna break''.

[Elwell]

I was looking foward to see some of the pros 1st drawing...

Try this on for size:
Albrecht Durer, Self Portrait at the Age of Thirteen

181797

The inscription reads "This I drew, using a mirror; it is my own likeness, in the year 1484, when I was still a child / Albrecht Durer."

I must have been seven or eight when I first saw this, and it changed my life. I was always a kid who was encouraged to draw, but here was proof of what was possible at a young age, and where you could see the seeds of what was to come.

[Ellingsworth]

Try this on for size:
Albrecht Durer, Self Portrait at the Age of Thirteen

181797

The inscription reads "This I drew, using a mirror; it is my own likeness, in the year 1484, when I was still a child / Albrecht Durer."

I must have been seven or eight when I first saw this, and it changed my life. I was always a kid who was encouraged to draw, but here was proof of what was possible at a young age, and where you could see the seeds of what was to come.

Orgasm. That's amazing.

[Dile_]

subversive-imaginati, I didn't read all your shit about not being able to improve. But I disagree damn completely on what i read.

Anyone can learn how to speak. Anyone can learn how to drive a car. Anyone can learn how to draw. It takes tons of hard work, and effort to get there. ( exclusively good ) But anyone who really loves it can get there. No matter what you have fooled yourself with. I'm sorry if you have changed your mind along the way in your posts, the only thing i got out of the message was that "not everyone can get good" .

I did 3D when i was really small. Before that I had no damn idea of what depth , 3D, form, and so on ever was. If i would just have picked up drawing , I would probably still be working on what was obvious after I had done 3D for fun some years. That was a "click" for me, that gave me a huge leap and understanding of drawing.

Your examples must be people who doesn't love it or enjoy it enough to put in enough effort to get better. So may it be. But don't say that people who has what your examples doesn't have can't improve, because they can.

There might be "clicks" a long the way that make you better in a leap, that makes it easier to improve.. But anyone who work hard can discover their own "clicks" .

Anyone should just keep working hard, and don't follow any one else, who says something else about your dreams. Listening to losers who never understood a thing about your dream will only hurt you. I've heard so much crap about artists , and how close to social-losers they are, that i can understand how people lose their love to doing it at an early age. But that doesn't means that those people who got what it takes and are determined to do it will fail to become great artists. Everyone got potential. USE IT.

ugh

/rant.

[Bhrazz]

Try this on for size:
Albrecht Durer, Self Portrait at the Age of Thirteen

181797

The inscription reads "This I drew, using a mirror; it is my own likeness, in the year 1484, when I was still a child / Albrecht Durer."

I must have been seven or eight when I first saw this, and it changed my life. I was always a kid who was encouraged to draw, but here was proof of what was possible at a young age, and where you could see the seeds of what was to come.

This is very fantastic, thanks for the share:D

[Jens]

bhrazz, it's more likely that you'll end up with a bloody stump for an arm if you keep punching a concrete wall.. so mayby find the right tools to break it :P

[Justin.]

I think the person with qualifications you are talking about is taught wrong. I have had several art classes, and the teachers are mediocre. They will tell you that drawing from life is how to get better. What they can't tell you is how to draw from life;

I'm not talking about technique here. Not about how to hold your pencil, or how to measure head lengths. I'm talking about how to see, and how to observe, because that is after all the point of it.
I was misled for years about Blind Contour drawing. I had always thought (as any person with a brain does when this excersize is first approached), that the point was to learn to draw something without looking at your paper. Was to make a perfect likeness of it. That's why everyone was so discouraged at the result.

exponentially I began to get a greater understanding of it though.
Blind contour drawing is not about what I previously mentioned. It's about learning to observe the turning of forms, values, geometries, and anatomies with complete attention. THe fact you are drawing gives your mind and hand a purpose to accompany your eye. This triples the effect of just plain-old trying to focus on something.

The problem is people's misunderstanding of what blind contouring is about. One can go their entire life through art school never realizing what it is actually supposed to do. Thus they end up doing thousands of meaningless drawings because they are focusing too much on their hand and not enough on their eye.

Music has notes and sheets and timing and metronomes- music is learnable. Grammar has rules and guides and characters and sounds- grammar is learnable.
Visual art is one of the most free forms of expression, because it has no rules, no boundaries, no end. The problem is that because of this, some people don't learn what they want. They learn what OTHER people want.

If you do not seek your own answers from multiple sources, I think it's harder for you to improve. If those people you mentioned were the type who listen to teachers extensively, than perhaps all the art classes is what kept them the way they were.

[Seedling]

Being a professional, I briefly considered showing some of my art here, but hen I realized I’m fooling myself. I’m not anywhere close to “godly”, nor ever likely to be. :P

I know artists who've had help by the bucketload, they've been shown the way to improve, they profess to be eager to learn. Unfortunately as the saying goes? You can't polish a turd. . . My own sister is one of them . . .

Two things you should realize: A. the turd quote is said about individual pieces of art, not about people, and B. you just called your own sister a turd.


As nice as it is to think that anyone can learn art, it's simply not feasible.

I would like to know what sort of teaching experience you have that makes you so sure.

subversive-imaginati - I think you may be right about the conceptual side of art and writing, but the equivalent of grammar in art is the line, colour and form of the piece.

The fact is, people CAN learn how to draw well, just like they can learn good grammar. Neither means youll produce a masterpiece.

Quoted for truth.


An eager student wants to become a master carpenter and approaches a very well known and respected master carpenter in a nearby town. The carpenter tells the student that it's going to take a lot of hard work- more than he probably expects. But the student is determined and enthusiastic and says he'll do anything. So the carpenter accepts him into his workshop and informs the student that he will start with the very basics- sawing wood. He gives the student a handsaw and about 500 pieces of scrap wood, and tells him to cut every piece in half, but no instruction or demonstration beyond that. Brimming with excitement, the student stays up all night sawing with great dedication and determination, but when the master carpenter arrives at the workshop the next morning, the student has hardly cut one board in half. Perplexed, the master carpenter asks the student to demonstrate what he spent the whole night doing. Eager to impress, the student sits down on the floor next to the saw horses and places the board between his legs. He places the wrong side of the saw on the wood and begins to move it back and forth furiously...

Awesome story!

[Ellingsworth]

Anyone can learn art, it's a skill that is the same as everything else, it takes practice. The only people that CANNOT learn art are...

A: Have a disability mentally and or physically that disables them from learning or making art.

B: Have no interest in learning about art or getting better.

C: Do not practice enough or take the time to learn and thoroughly understand the process.

D: Have been taught their entire life the wrong way, THE ABSOLUTE WRONG WAY.

Otherwise, if you don't fall into any of those categories you can learn how to be an artist and how to create something that is nice to look at.

Even a professional (Seedling) has said it is true, everyone can learn one way or another. (Except those who fall into the above categories)

[subversive-imaginati]

Anyone can learn how to speak.

To be frank? Nonsense. There are people who cannot speak, it's called being mute and it can happen for a variety of reasons. Some people who have severe learning difficulties cannot speak or sign.

Anyone can learn how to drive a car.

Again, nonsense. They won't let me attempt to learn because I'm considered incapable of driving a car safely. If anyone can learn it, why can't I? Why do I have friends who freak out at the idea and so have never learned. Your examples are poor.

Your examples must be people who doesn't love it or enjoy it enough to put in enough effort to get better. So may it be. But don't say that people who has what your examples doesn't have can't improve, because they can.

The people in my examples put in plenty of effort. Effort does not equal results every single time. Art is just the same as any other subject, sometimes people are just hopeless with it.

My earlier example of the person who can not write is actually me, this is NOT because of a lack of effort, I love to write but unless I have something to make the symbols for me then all I produce looks like a child wrote it with random capitalisations and terrible grammar and the occasional backwards letter, I'm simply not able to draw the symbols correctly even though I "know" how writing should look. Countless teachers have tried to help me and failed. I've done exercises by the bucketload and even had a job which forced me to write for 10 hours a day. The result after ten years of solid effort? Has been only a marginal improvement and it's not because I've had bad teachers, apparently the section of my brain which controls the fine movement required for writing is hopelessly scrambled. Oddly enough it helps with my art, it means I didn't think of facial features as "symbols" and meant I had an easier time when it came to learning to see as opposed to drawing what I thought things looked like.

Seedling, sometimes I am hard pressed to see the difference between my sister and turd, 21 years old and she assaults me because I don't have any spare clothing to give her so she can hack it up and try to redesign it? :nohope: Her teachers finally persuaded her to give up her ambitions to equal me and got her to follow fashion design as a possible alternative since she's quite creative and since so long as she can draw a straight line, that's all she needs for fashion, she's even failing at that though. So yeah, that was inadvertent but it's still fitting. :P As for her art, if you'd ever seen it, it looks like something a five year old drew, I'm hard pressed to think of any possible reason why years at an art college with teachers who I know are good hasn't at least effected some improvement in her, she hasn't even reached mediocrity, she's stuck at a five year olds level.

I would like to know what sort of teaching experience you have that makes you so sure.

No teaching experience but if anyone could learn anything than we'd be able to do anything with our lives, unfortunately sometimes dreams remain mere dreams. Experience has taught me that some people might as well be trying to punch their way through a 30ft thick steel block when it comes to certain subjects. For example we're not all going to pass requirements for the marines are we? Hell some people can't even get into the main army let alone the marines. I believe just as people have physical limitations they have mental limitations, some people just have more affinity for certain things. That doesn't mean they're going to be great without effort but lacking that affinity is often the difference between sub-par and above standard work.

Basically my point is *most* people can be taught to at least some standard, a few become amazing, and some? Can't tell one end of the pencil from the other to be frank no matter how good their teachers or how much effort they put in or how long they work on it.

I'm not arguing that talent is needed for art but that everyone is different and sometimes those differences can have a big impact on what people can and can't do.

[Seedling]

Anyone can learn art, it's a skill that is the same as everything else, it takes practice. The only people that CANNOT learn art are...

A: Have a disability mentally and or physically that disables them from learning or making art.

B: Have no interest in learning about art or getting better.

C: Do not practice enough or take the time to learn and thoroughly understand the process.

D: Have been taught their entire life the wrong way, THE ABSOLUTE WRONG WAY.

Otherwise, if you don't fall into any of those categories you can learn how to be an artist and how to create something that is nice to look at.

Even a professional (Seedling) has said it is true, everyone can learn one way or another. (Except those who fall into the above categories)

They won't let me attempt to learn because I'm considered incapable of driving a car safely. If anyone can learn it, why can't I?. . . My earlier example of the person who can not write is actually me, this is NOT because of a lack of effort, I love to write but unless I have something to make the symbols for me then all I produce looks like a child wrote it with random capitalizations and terrible grammar and the occasional backwards letter, I'm simply not able to draw the symbols correctly even though I "know" how writing should look.

subversive-imaginati, you illustrate Ellingngsworth’s points nicely, since you have apparently been prevented from learning to drive and write due to disabilities of some sort.

Whatever your sister’s disability or problem is, and whatever your disability is, if you are as old as her, you should be ashamed of the childish way you speak of her. Grow up.

[Bhrazz]

To be frank? Nonsense. There are people who cannot speak, it's called being mute and it can happen for a variety of reasons. Some people who have severe learning difficulties cannot speak or sign.



Again, nonsense. They won't let me attempt to learn because I'm considered incapable of driving a car safely. If anyone can learn it, why can't I? Why do I have friends who freak out at the idea and so have never learned. Your examples are poor.



The people in my examples put in plenty of effort. Effort does not equal results every single time. Art is just the same as any other subject, sometimes people are just hopeless with it.

My earlier example of the person who can not write is actually me, this is NOT because of a lack of effort, I love to write but unless I have something to make the symbols for me then all I produce looks like a child wrote it with random capitalisations and terrible grammar and the occasional backwards letter, I'm simply not able to draw the symbols correctly even though I "know" how writing should look. Countless teachers have tried to help me and failed. I've done exercises by the bucketload and even had a job which forced me to write for 10 hours a day. The result after ten years of solid effort? Has been only a marginal improvement and it's not because I've had bad teachers, apparently the section of my brain which controls the fine movement required for writing is hopelessly scrambled. Oddly enough it helps with my art, it means I didn't think of facial features as "symbols" and meant I had an easier time when it came to learning to see as opposed to drawing what I thought things looked like.

Seedling, sometimes I am hard pressed to see the difference between my sister and turd, 21 years old and she assaults me because I don't have any spare clothing to give her so she can hack it up and try to redesign it? :nohope: Her teachers finally persuaded her to give up her ambitions to equal me and got her to follow fashion design as a possible alternative since she's quite creative and since so long as she can draw a straight line, that's all she needs for fashion, she's even failing at that though. So yeah, that was inadvertent but it's still fitting. :P As for her art, if you'd ever seen it, it looks like something a five year old drew, I'm hard pressed to think of any possible reason why years at an art college with teachers who I know are good hasn't at least effected some improvement in her, she hasn't even reached mediocrity, she's stuck at a five year olds level.



No teaching experience but if anyone could learn anything than we'd be able to do anything with our lives, unfortunately sometimes dreams remain mere dreams. Experience has taught me that some people might as well be trying to punch their way through a 30ft thick steel block when it comes to certain subjects. For example we're not all going to pass requirements for the marines are we? Hell some people can't even get into the main army let alone the marines. I believe just as people have physical limitations they have mental limitations, some people just have more affinity for certain things. That doesn't mean they're going to be great without effort but lacking that affinity is often the difference between sub-par and above standard work.

Basically my point is *most* people can be taught to at least some standard, a few become amazing, and some? Can't tell one end of the pencil from the other to be frank no matter how good their teachers or how much effort they put in or how long they work on it.

I'm not arguing that talent is needed for art but that everyone is different and sometimes those differences can have a big impact on what people can and can't do.

Is true that some people are different and might have problem learning something. But MOST of the people can learn whatever exist with willing. I don't know chemistry because I don't want to be good at it, it interest me but I rather spend time drawing, but If I WANTED, I could learn chemistry. It goes like that with everything. Whatever I wanted to accomplish in the past I did, for the only reason I wanted to do that. If another human is capable of doing ''this'', I can do it also, If I spend enough time to learn and practice it.

I'm not so sure why you can't write but maybe you have (no offense here seriously) a small mental disfunction like dyslexia or something.
I don't think your individual experience can be quoted for for everyone, as far as I know, everyone normal can learn and execute if he spend the correct time to it.

[slooie]

i have a feeling this arguement is getting out of hand.. it will never be solved everyone has there own opinion.

subversive-imaginati- i think is the only one on the side of not EVERYONE can get better... its kind of a little pointless negativity.. anyways..since your saying ur sister cant draw worth turds is this because she has a disability?

if so that would qualify into

"Originally Posted by Ellingsworth View Post
Anyone can learn art, it's a skill that is the same as everything else, it takes practice. The only people that CANNOT learn art are...

A: Have a disability mentally and or physically that disables them from learning or making art."


theres my 2 cents... now back to the REAL topic for a second..
. anyways... if anyone has art from when they were starting out ,post if with some recent work youve done .. it doesnt matter if your godly or even pro as long as there has been lots of improvement .. id prefer to see pencil sketches but anything will be nice .

btw my sketchbook is lonely;D .

. also can somone tell me how i can access my signature.. -_- so i dont have to keep saying that

[ivow]

slooie - Click "userCP" at the top left, then on the left hand margin is a link to "edit signature".

subversive-imaginati - You just seem like an extremely negative person. I always thought i was negative, but at least i dont deny the possibility to learn, grow and enjoy life successfully.

Schools would not exist if you were correct, so use a little logic and try to understand what everyone here is saying. Then smile and go practice your artwork. This is a waste of everyones time.

[Ellingsworth]

'if anyone has art from when they were starting out ,post if with some recent work youve done"

I'm what you would call a COMPLETE novice but after three months of hanging around here I have gotten a tiny bit better, still bad but at least I'm improving. :)

This is my first drawing after five or four years off doing nothing.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=181891&stc=1&d=1186516828

Now, fast forward to now and I'm getting a bit better, like I said above still bad but I'm learning.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=181892&stc=1&d=1186516909

I like the idea of this thread, I think it should be for everyone not just professionals. :)

[Coinpurse]

so use a little logic and try to understand what everyone here is saying. Then smile and go practice your artwork. This is a waste of everyones time.


Finally, someone with something considerable to say! Huzzah!
This thread has turned into a dead end.

[Jason Rainville]

anyways... if anyone has art from when they were starting out ,post if with some recent work youve done .. it doesnt matter if your godly or even pro as long as there has been lots of improvement .. id prefer to see pencil sketches but anything will be nice .


Figure from mind last fall (september):

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7163/attachmentbr2.jpg

Figure from mind last week:

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/788/attachmentkm8.jpg


Hooray for progress :)

EDIT: here's some more substance;

Everyday I tell myself that one day I WILL be a professional. I keep comparing myself to the greats on this site, and others I've admired. I'm still building up the basics, but my steady progress shows, at least to me, that I can do it. I'll 'arrive' there later than some, earlier than others. I'll get there one way or another.

[subversive-imaginati]

subversive-imaginati, you illustrate Ellingngsworth’s points nicely, since you have apparently been prevented from learning to drive and write due to disabilities of some sort.

Whatever your sister’s disability or problem is, and whatever your disability is, if you are as old as her, you should be ashamed of the childish way you speak of her. Grow up.

My point is that anyone includes everyone, does it or does it not? Therefore if some people cannot learn something because of a reason outside of not putting enough effort in then not everyone can learn something. It's pure logic, anyone can learn art sure sounds nice and for most people it's true but a statement of belief is no guarantee that everyone has the ability or capability needed for any type of learning. It's easy to say anyone can learn to do something but disability is not the only reason people can't learn things. We all have different capabilities. Even before you consider disabilities people have different attention spans, different levels of motor control, different levels of depth perception, different ways of looking at the world. Some people can't sing, some people can't dance, in the same way not everyone is going to be able to learn art. I'm disagreeing because that statement is a fallacy, you might as well say "anyone can fly if they just flap their arms hard enough". Oh and I didn't get prohibited from driving due to a disability, at least I don't think what's causing the prohibition can be termed a disability, medical issue certainly.

As for my issues with my sister, there's a long complicated history behind that. Thanks for the advice but regarding my relationship with certain family members, I think I'm entitled to think of them in any manner I see fit even if you don't agree with it Seedling. Most people who are aware of the complicated history are surprised by how civil I am to certain family members including my sister. So please don't tell me to grow up when you have no idea of the more complicated aspects of why I said what I said.

ivow, I fear you misunderstand. I'm not negative, I'm a realist. Everyone can learn, grow and enjoy life. But not everyone is going to be capable at everything they set their mind to do. Not everyone passes their school exams with all top grades in all subjects after all. The difference is, I see that all people are different, not everyone is going to be a nasa scientist even if they study real hard, not everyone is going to work in a factory, not everyone can think up new fashion ideas. Does being unsuccessful in one area preclude success in another? Definitely not. I just don't think that everyone is going to have a basic ability for every job/discpline that there is even if they have the inclination to do it.

I agree we are all getting nowhere though. I think the statement is wrong because it's an absolute and doesn't account for people's differences. I do agree that most people can learn a basic standard of drawing, I just disagree that everyone is capable of it. It's a gross generalisation and like all generalisations, it doesn't apply to everyone. That's my whole point, I'm not asking people to agree with me, just to realise that I do have a valid point.

[Seedling]

As for my issues with my sister, there's a long complicated history behind that.

Subversive, when you share those sorts of opinions out of the blue in a public place like this, you make a terrible impression on anyone who is not privy to the details of your personal life.

Oh and I didn't get prohibited from driving due to a disability, at least I don't think what's causing the prohibition can be termed a disability, medical issue certainly.

Seizures? Blindness? Spinal cord injury? These sorts of things are disabilities. It isn’t shameful to have a disability.

I'm not asking people to agree with me, just to realize that I do have a valid point.

You do have a valid point. Drawing (or writing or playing the piano) does take more effort for some than others. Some will never have anything meaningful to communicate through their drawings. Some will be content to stop learning at stick-figures. Some will struggle with technical mastery but be bursting with ideas that they can barely scratch out in crude lines. However, for those who can hold a pencil and who are interested enough in learning to keep trying, progress will happen, even if the pace is glacial. A slow learner may never become proficient enough during their lifetime to make a career of it, but that hardly matters if they are only interested in doing it for fun. To add to that, a slow learner can become a much faster learner with the addition of a good teacher to guide them in the right direction, and a fast learner can become a slow learner or a quitter if a bad teacher (or mentor or parent) holds them back.

[bonedog]

One thing I've observed in successful artists is that their early work, no matter how bad, is usually completed.

Their goal was not simply "to be a good artist one day." That is not a particularly worthy goal and besides that "one day" will always be in the future. Their goal was to create something meaningful to them on _that_ particular day... and they did that regardless of how flawed and imperfect it may have looked to an outsider.

Do not try to answer questions that only an oracle can answer. No one knows how good you will be. If you have a heart that has something to say then dig, dig, and dig within yourself and maybe one day you will find the means to say it.

S/he who picks up the pencil and gives it their all is has already won. Try and win everyday. Do not expect the digging to be easy. Do not think too much of the outcome.

[Sung-jae Kim]

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=57331
Have fun fellas

[subversive-imaginati]

Subversive, when you share those sorts of opinions out of the blue in a public place like this, you make a terrible impression on anyone who is not privy to the details of your personal life.

I would consider anyone who judged me so harshly on so little to be jumping to conclusions slightly. After all we all have our times when we're less than cordial about family members or people we know. Anyone who judges me based on my less than complimentary view of my sister is bound to have said similar things about someone probably with far less justification than I have. It's the nature of the world, I dare say that all of us have at one time or another said something unflattering about another person.

Seizures? Blindness? Spinal cord injury? These sorts of things are disabilities. It isn’t shameful to have a disability.

I do have several disabilities actually, I'm most certainly not ashamed of being disabled. Those are not what stops me from driving though. Not one of the numerous medical staff who has examined me though has been able to diagnose what the issue is. Can't label something really until we know what it is.

To get back on topic, "anyone can learn to do art" is a lovely notion but it essentially sets a certain percentage of people up to be supremely disappointed.

It really sometimes doesn't help people to hear "anyone can do it" because if they can't then they start wondering what's wrong with them when the only "problem" is that they simply have not found the right fit for their natural aptitudes. Personally I think that's the biggest issue in current schooling, it's really hard to find teachers especially art teachers who realise that not everyone is identical, that we all excel in different and diverse ways and not always the ways we expect either.

[ChaoticKnight]

Hey I'm not a professional either, but I thought Id do an old/new post, to encourage the original reason this thread was posted.

The first is the 1st ever digital painting i did with a Wacom tablet. The second is a drawing I did recently for Ender's Game.

[sve]

I believe technical skills can be learned by anyone, but with a different prize for different people.. sometimes prize will be too high. But skills despite that they are very important for presentation of ideas and expressing are only a burden when artist is impotent with ideas and emotion.
For art to spark people hearts it needs the artist's heart to be open and vulnerable and accustomed with emotion... I mean an artist needs to feel gentleness and sadness and grief and hate and admiration.. maybe in the past, but he needs to remember that and tell about that.
And that can't be taught especially when a person is emotionally dead. Sometimes it can come with age... some people are born with open heart and sensative eyes for beauty.
I think openness is a real artistic talent. The one who is not afraid to feel is talented... one writer said... look at lovers... they are all talented.
Here is an example when skills don't matter... the lovely simple feeling is going straight to heart, well for me it is.

Niko Pirosmani , Russian primitivism artist, he was probably illiterate, no special education... his paintings are his dreams actually of happiness, no hunger, his family, the woman he loves answers his feelings... things that never happened to him in a real life.
.
http://www.tufs.ac.jp/ts/personal/staka/pic/piro3.jpg

http://www.steele.com/pirosmani/people/kali-ludit.jpg

http://www.steele.com/pirosmani/life/man_on_donkey.jpg

http://www.steele.com/pirosmani/animals/bears.jpg

http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2005/0197/img/pirosmani.jpg


Chagal's romantic paintings do the same for me.


http://blog.joins.com/usr/m/a/maura/7/shagal.jpg

[Zilant]

Ahh, the "A" word.

To remove one's personal responsibility of the outcome and place it in the hands of esoteric powers that be. A word to be used carefully, for it's a great excuse to get out of putting forth effort, and a fantastic insult to the people that already did.

I'm wholly unconvinced.
Disabilities aside, as that whole string of conversation is little more than a pointless segue into the land of Debating Semantics.

Anyone can learn Art,
the fundamentals can be broken down scientifically and rote memorized.
If your capable of learning, your capable of learning Art. You want to talk about Creativity? About having enough life experience to generate an interesting message to your audience? I'll listen to that.

But hell, nobody needs to be touched by god to render a Fruitbasket.

[sweet_sorrow]

bhrazz, it's more likely that you'll end up with a bloody stump for an arm if you keep punching a concrete wall.. so mayby find the right tools to break it :P

Ah i think that that's exactly it. To learn art, YOU must find your own individual tools to success and improvement. Hacking away at a paper with a pencil won't lead you anywhere but to frustration and eventual discouragement. Finding what works for you, even if it takes hacking at that paper for a while for you to find where to start, is the ultimate key to your personal success. Art is just such a personal, expressing thing as we all have such differences in the way we think, act and percept things, that to be satisfied with what you do, you need to find out how to become satisfied. Whether is learning better anatomy, finally being able to grasp perception, being able to really see, learning greater patience, unleashing your creativity, whatever and however you need to find what works for you will help you. Others and how they work can be inspirational, enabling you to further pursue what you need to improve, but as for them technically helping you out in your physical skill? Its tough to say that they will help you improve, other than perhaps getting a better understanding in how others work and trying to grasp how others perceive things.

Back to the point, anyone can learn how to approach things artistically, whether or not they can apply it to their physical work depends on the individual.

[sve]

Zilant, your comment is very subtle. Was it a reply to my post? I'm kind of not sure :). If you were talking to me... to answer your question... yes, I think one needs to be touched by god... or in another words he needs to be able to make it a conversation with his viewer. He needs to be a talented transmit of ideas and emotions, a communicator.

[Seedling]

To get back on topic, "anyone can learn to do art" is a lovely notion but it essentially sets a certain percentage of people up to be supremely disappointed.

It really sometimes doesn't help people to hear "anyone can do it" because if they can't then they start wondering what's wrong with them when the only "problem" is that they simply have not found the right fit for their natural aptitudes. Personally I think that's the biggest issue in current schooling, it's really hard to find teachers especially art teachers who realise that not everyone is identical, that we all excel in different and diverse ways and not always the ways we expect either.



A person’s pleasure or disappointment with their progress has nothing to do with how much or how little progress they make. Disappointment is a failure to meet expectations. I would say that you are right: it isn’t fair of a teacher to build up unrealistically high expectations in a student. However, consider this scenario:

A teacher walks among the students in a beginner-level class. He points to individual students, and says “you: you’ve got a knack for this drawing stuff. It will be worth your while to continue.” And “you: you aren’t progressing fast enough to ever enjoy this. Give up now.”

How moral would it be for a teacher to make those decisions for his students? How could a teacher possibly know the full potential and the heart’s desires of a student? Regardless of how slow or how fast they learn, shouldn’t it be up to the students to decide if drawing is worth their while? I’m not talking about reaching a professional level, understand, I’m talking about making art as a means of having fun.

If you find disappointment in the statement “Everybody can learn to draw,” it is because you are mistakenly equating it to “everybody can find spiritual fulfillment or a career in drawing.”

[subversive-imaginati]

Respectfully, I both agree and disagree. My main issue is that there are people who will never progress no matter how much effort goes into it. If effort alone granted progress then nobody would ever work in a "dead end" job.

My scenario would be if a student say had absolutely no aptitude for representational drawing, ie they produced images of a quality that could be likened to a 5 year olds drawing and showed absolutely no improvement despite much effort; Then would not a good teacher guide them to something they could make progress at? There is more than one way to be creative after all. If someone simply can't draw there are always other creative outlets for them to explore, not necessarily art perse but then there are creative avenues that don't result in art. A good teacher would encourage a student to explore other avenues and find one that suited their particularly aptitude rather than wasting their time with something that they could try for a thousand years and only end up frustrated at their lack of progress compared to others.

[Seedling]

My scenario would be if a student say had absolutely no aptitude for representational drawing, ie they produced images of a quality that could be likened to a 5 year olds drawing and showed absolutely no improvement despite much effort; Then would not a good teacher guide them to something they could make progress at? There is more than one way to be creative after all. If someone simply can't draw there are always other creative outlets for them to explore, not necessarily art perse but then there are creative avenues that don't result in art. A good teacher would encourage a student to explore other avenues and find one that suited their particularly aptitude rather than wasting their time with something that they could try for a thousand years and only end up frustrated at their lack of progress compared to others.

Sure. Absolutely.

But what about students who want to keep drawing for their own entertainment? (Hobbyists, for example.) And what about the students who believe in themselves even when their teachers don’t? (I had a guidance councilor who ever-so-kindly tried to steer me into a non-art career, for example.)

[subversive-imaginati]

They can draw just as well at home as they can in college. If they're paying for courses they might as well be learning something rather than fruitlessly wasting their time. I'm only talking about the utterly hopeless cases that all the teachers in the world couldn't help improve.

Of course you're going to get bad teachers, this conversation seems to be wandering a bit. :teeth:

[Seedling]

They can draw just as well at home as they can in college. If they're paying for courses they might as well be learning something rather than fruitlessly wasting their time.

Where did you hear me say "college"?

[GriNGo]

Figure from mind last fall (september):

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7163/attachmentbr2.jpg

Figure from mind last week:

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/788/attachmentkm8.jpg


Hooray for progress :)


I think you just rendered the image more, still it's a sign that you're putting more time in things and not being content with fast solutions.

[subversive-imaginati]

Sorry I'm thinking of College or higher since I'm thinking of elective study rather than mandatory study.

[That fat kid]

I wish bonedog chimed into more threads.


The people who are the 'best' at anything are that way because they want to be for themselves, not because they can learn better.

And people who 'can't' do something just won't do it. Like people who go on diets and don't lose weight, they're eating when no one's looking. Just like when people who 'can't' learn how to draw don't sit around by themselves and put in the time. They expect instant results and only work when the teacher's looking and for the grade. Fuck those people. No one 'deserves' the things they have. They earn them, plain and simple. Bad or good.

[Wasker]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=B_ppzoN8j-4

[dierat]

Wow, I post in a dying go-nowhere thread, I come back a couple days later and it's 2 pages longer.

In retrospective, this conversation was pointless. I think it's inherently understood in the statement "Everyone can learn to draw" that ppl who suffer from drawing disabilities are automatically excluded. That's what "disability" means. I thought what we were discussing was if someone begins drawing and does not take to it right away, is that individual "untalented" and therefore "unable" or can that person learn to draw with the right tools and the right instructor?

And, responding to a post way back by sub-imag, yeah, ppl are naturally better than some things than other things. I, for instance, suck at music. I'm just no good at it. But then, once I realized that I was on the suck scale, I cut my losses and went back to drawing. I think it's funny though that when I look back at my high school drawings, well, I wasn't too great at that either. Good thing I knew no better and stuck with it ;D

And sub-imag, I think it's brilliant to hear that your sister is finding an appropriate creative outlet in fashion design. I wish her the best of luck and hope she never hears how you talk about her.

[subversive-imaginati]

Don't be silly, not being able to draw isn't a disability anymore than not being able to sing/play pro basketball/create a time travel machine is. Being unable to draw might be because of a disability but it's not in itself a disability.

Everyone includes disabled people, we're not magically excluded. Everyone means everyone, from a grandparent in America to a Grandchild in Zimbabwe. Everyone is all inclusive. It literally means everyone.

Seriously, what is it with people and making comments about the way I talk about my sister? I mean don't you people have anything better to do? I assure you, I don't talk about anyone like that without a good reason.

[Seedling]

Seriously, what is it with people and making comments about the way I talk about my sister? I mean don't you people have anything better to do? I assure you, I don't talk about anyone like that without a good reason.

That’s just it, Sub. Everybody has a few people in their lives that they have good reason to hate on a very personal level, not just you. It isn’t considered good manners for adults to go about badmouthing these people publicly, particularly when that person is a close relative with whom it would be expected that you have a good relationship.

Think, for example, how shocking it would be to hear someone start ranting in public about their spouse with the same bitterness that you spoke of your sister.

[sve]

She didn't call her sister a turd actually. She used this phrase:"Unfortunately as the saying goes? You can't polish a turd".
And later she talk about how some people can't use any given to them knowledge for their own advantage.
You, Seedling, were the one who took those words out of context and connected them in one phrase.
She does have a low opinion about her sister but it was you who dragged their relationship to the surface for everyone to see, don't shift it entirely on her.

And once again you are teaching other people good manners, but didn't you tell me few months ago to deal with you rudeness? Double standard once again. You do treat people with more respect recently though, I have to say this, and have more control over your posts. And your last thread I liked a lot, becasue finally I saw something human and warm in it...but now again you saying one thing and doing another.

[Seedling]

Buzz off, sve.

[sve]

On public forum? I will not :). Unless moderator tells me.
That's your argument? Buzz off?... you are still a very young person.

[Hyskoa]

On public forum? I will not :). Unless moderator tells me.
That's your argument? Buzz off?... you are still a very young person.

Including an argument from several months ago + age into a discussion.
If anyone needs to grow up and back off, it's you.

Have a nice day.
:wink:

[sve]

maybe :). I don't argue with that :). That's about "Grow up" part. "Buzz off" is still rude, childish phrase.
BTW where did I say anything about back off? this part is not mine :).
nice day to you too.:).

[alesoun]

I don't know if this is going to make much sense, but I think at least half of the key to becoming a good artist is to learn how to look and see properly; and maybe that just can't be taught, only learned, if you know what I mean. (Does that make sense?)

I know that the times when I'm "blocked" happen when I lose the ability to see the planes of an object or the variety of colours in it. Think, for example of the many. many colours in a block of weathered sandstone as the sun hits it. If you look hard, there must be twenty different colours. When I'm blocked, I might see five or eight.... I'm not sure why it happens, but it happens. Maybe some people just can't see the variety of planes and colours and that's what holds them back? I dunno.......

[sve]

Makes sense for me, alesoun.

[dierat]

Don't be silly, not being able to draw isn't a disability anymore than not being able to sing/play pro basketball/create a time travel machine is. Being unable to draw might be because of a disability but it's not in itself a disability.

Everyone includes disabled people, we're not magically excluded. Everyone means everyone, from a grandparent in America to a Grandchild in Zimbabwe. Everyone is all inclusive. It literally means everyone.

Seriously, what is it with people and making comments about the way I talk about my sister? I mean don't you people have anything better to do? I assure you, I don't talk about anyone like that without a good reason.

I think if there if something missing in the components of someone's neural facets that keeps them from advancing their ability in art, that individual would be considered to have a "disability". It's not exactly the way in which we're used to using the term, which is generally applied to more affecting handicaps, like being unable to walk or see or hear. And from the information that you've given throughout this thread, I feel that you've suggested your sister simply lacks the neural facets that allow her to see what she needs to do to improve her drawings. But whether or not disabilities should be explicitely added into the statement as "Everyone can learn to draw except ppl who have a physical disability preventing them from doing so" is really a matter of opinion. So there really isn't anything to argue.

Btw, I wasn't talking about the "turd" statement when I said I hope your sister doesn't hear how you talk about her. I was talking about the "attacking" description. I kind of think it's unfair to make accusations about her to strangers on public art forums when we're only allowed to hear your side of the story. My older sister and I never got along when we were in high school, and we were both aggressive and horrible to each other, but we had at least the common decency to not publish it on the internet.

And as for the "don't you people have anything better to do?" question, well, we're in an art forum debating if it's an over-generalization to say that "Everyone can learn to draw" and we're on the 3rd page on this back-and-forth crusade, so.. apparently not.

[alesoun]

Mind you, it's a pain when you CAN see it, but just can't get it down the way you want to; I guess THAT'S where training and practice really kick in!

[subversive-imaginati]

Sve's got a point unfortunately Seedling, I didn't originally directly call her a turd, though once you said I'd done so, I agreed it did fit her.

Bitterness? Don't read what isn't there please. I was merely using her as an example of a hopeless case.

Dierat, perhaps if I can be bothered I'll write you a list of why me and my close family don't get along. That is if you've got all day and the stomach for it. Until then, don't judge. ;)

[dierat]

Sve's got a point unfortunately Seedling, I didn't originally directly call her a turd, though once you said I'd done so, I agreed it did fit her.

Bitterness? Don't read what isn't there please. I was merely using her as an example of a hopeless case.

Dierat, perhaps if I can be bothered I'll write you a list of why me and my close family don't get along. That is if you've got all day and the stomach for it. Until then, don't judge. ;)

Uh, in case you've forgotten, no one asked to hear about your family. You brought it up, and we responded. If you don't want to be judged by the way you talk about your sister, then don't talk about her.

And for the record, I'm out. I think I've said this at least 2 or 3 times now, this conversation is going, and has gone, nowhere.

[armando]

14 year old Alex Ross, from "Mythology"
183634


Charles Dana Gibson, from "The Gibson Girl and Her America"
183635


Teenage Winsor McCay doodle, from "Winsor McCay: His Life and Art"
183636

[HunterKiller_]

Wowie. I think somebody oughta close this thread. ;)

[drd]

Wowie. I think somebody oughta close this thread. ;)

Why does someone always suggest to close the thread when it starts getting interesting? =/

[chaosrocks]

actually I think the early pics and progress of artists work is amazing and encouraging. I think any one can learn to make art
although it is more of a challange for o some than others. and there are people with spacial disabilities just like being tone deaf... so thay really Cant.do 2d. but these are rare. mostly its a learned skill just like reading or playing music.

and sveta and Seeding.... this is indeed a public forum and Im not going to shut down an interesting thread . I prefer to ignore yhou to sniping at each other to no particular productive purpose.... why can't you (collectively) behave! I love you both damn it!

[subversive-imaginati]

I don't normally talk about my family, my sister just happened to be a convenient example for the discussion. My apologies for using a personal experience to make my point, I didn't expect people to get hung up on the blood relationship of the personal experience. I shall remember in future certain people's regrettable lack of focus when it comes to the salient points rather than the incidental information. So there's little misunderstanding in terms of references, and something came out, and of course a bunch of people had to jump on it didn't you? Excuse me if I get a little off topic, those of you who are so eager to teach me manners, apparently you seem to have neglected your own education in that circle of learning. Assumptions are often the root of all poor manners I find. I'd tell you why you've just jumped that fence a little too early but you probably don't want to know after all.

I only brought up my sister because she's a good examples of someone who breaks the whole "everyone can learn art rule". I shall remember in future that I shouldn't make relevant points using the first example that comes to mind because that opens up the possibility of someone using it to make a judgment about my character rather than to fuel further discussion.

I've said my piece, so now we can get back to the original topic of the thread.

[sve]

Nellie, I love you too a lot for the sensative and honest nature and for your paintings with glowing light which is actually the same thing.
I should have said something earlier probably, it might possibly have ended this reappearing theme about non-artistic sister. I admit I use more expressive words with Seedling, but only because she refused to talk like normal people when I tried some time ago. Expressive, but not rude. She will never hear me saying to her "buzz off". No one will hear this from me.
I don't have anything against her and like with every person on this forum I want her to be here and post and bring diversity to this place. But playing by rules.

[emily g]

Buzz off, sve.
Of all the posts on this thread, this one ticked me off the most.
Seedling, put her on your ignore list if you don't want to read her posts but don't tell her to buzz off.

thanks

[Randis]

everyone can get good as good as good is for everyone good.
And that being said go back to work and be happy that not everyone is as good.

[Bhrazz]

Why does someone always suggest to close the thread when it starts getting interesting? =/

I don't know, but it molest me when people ask to shut down a thread. Life is full of contradiction and people can discuss about it. As long as it don't turn into ''Go eat shit mofo'' argument, it should be tolerated.

@subversive-imaginati: you told us 20 post ago you didn't want to convince us but just stating your point of view.Now you keep persisting and is the same old same old, we got your point, you are right and the rest of us are wrong.

If anyone else can post some older work I would like to see:)

[steve kim]

this article might be interesting http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=406

thank you sir, for that splendid article. i especially appreciated the fact that while brief, it was incredibly succinct and informative. i was initially off-put by the ugly design and title (damn interesting huh?) but the site as a whole actually does seem pretty interesting :). thanks again.

[Bhrazz]

thank you sir, for that splendid article. i especially appreciated the fact that while brief, it was incredibly succinct and informative. i was initially off-put by the ugly design and title (damn interesting huh?) but the site as a whole actually does seem pretty interesting :). thanks again.

i especially loved the end

As is the case with many human flaws, perhaps the best remedy is to never stop learning, to seek out and absorb constructive criticism, and to always be prepared to admit that you may be wrong about something.

[subversive-imaginati]

@subversive-imaginati: you told us 20 post ago you didn't want to convince us but just stating your point of view.Now you keep persisting and is the same old same old, we got your point, you are right and the rest of us are wrong.

You know it's entirely possible just to insist that there's more than meets the eyes to something without needing to convince people of what I personally believe. The point of my posts is absolutes? Are rarely absolutes and that sometimes it pays to accept that there's often an "odd" person out that generalisations do not apply to.

Some posters decided to argue against my viewpoint, so I argued back slightly. Just because I don't seek to convince someone of something doesn't mean I can't disagree with their opinions.

[armando]

Once again I have wasted my time in the Art Discussion area, I actually had hope for this thread too. I have no idea what any of you are arguing about, didn't bother reading those long ass posts. The original topic was for pros to post their early artwork, there's hardly any examples, and then there's a link to an article that's also off topic as hell, fuck...

[Flake]

Once again I have wasted my time in the Art Discussion area, I actually had hope for this thread too. I have no idea what any of you are arguing about, didn't bother reading those long ass posts. The original topic was for pros to post their early artwork, there's hardly any examples, and then there's a link to an article that's also off topic as hell, fuck...

Hey, at least it wasn't another "which tablet?" or "is it alright to use reference?" thread...:/

[Costau D]

People are born blind but I don't see them running into walls now do I?

No. I only see that when a person is not paying attention or putting care into what they are doing.

Edit: I wonder what it would be like if Sve and Seedling ever meet. Most passive agressive and uncomfortable conversation/argument in the world. I find it funny.:D
Talk about walking on egg shells. You can cut the tension with a hammer.

Armando: Yeah man I feel just as dissapointed as you do. It veered off topic and lead to bickering.

[chaosrocks]

i was very interested in the historical artists who have early work to show
early picassos any one?

[steve kim]

btw no one seems to want to oblige the original poster!

[QUOTE=slooie;1411213]im just wondering if any of you godly pro's out there have any work scanned from when u were a lil baby artist...[QUOTE]

well. i'm not a pro but i'm certainly godly

no one seems to want to oblige the original poster!

age 11:
http://www.stevekim.net/forum/misc/11_clinging.jpg

age 12:
http://www.stevekim.net/forum/misc/12_oldman.jpg

age 14:
http://www.stevekim.net/forum/misc/14_infant.jpg

age 14:
http://www.stevekim.net/forum/misc/14_me.jpg



the point isn't that i drew well at a young age, cause you know that's just painfully obvious. what to take from it is that i took it upon myself to learn to draw in the most logical, systematic way i could. non-art people/peers would call it talent but most of you probably know better.

but then if i mention the t-word everyone will go off on a wild tanget about what talent is/means/whether it exists so maybe pretend i didn't say it.

the funny thing is that my own systematic/objective approach to drawing really didn't carry over to painting... especially when i went to a fancy art school and tried to learn the 'proper' painting methods. by then, much older and self-conscious, my mental hangups and self-defeatist thinking would honestly just kill a painting before it ever began.

now that i've graduated from school i feel free to once more approach art (and really not just art, but everything) rationally, objectively, systematically, painstakingly, and most importantly, personally and lovingly.

'drawing good' or 'skills' really is the easiest part of the whole art thing. basic, accurate, observational drawing is almost trivial in its simplicity once you take the time to really look at what you are drawing. it's the mental hangups more often than not that impede progress. well, that and bad advice.

i guess what i am trying to say is don't get so caught up in attaining skills that you lose sight of what you wanted to do with them in the first place. i'm not saying anyone is exactly plagued with this idea but i dont know i thought i would share.

steve

[HunterKiller_]

Ummm.... Excuse me, but I was hoping that seeing the young works of pros would make me feel better about myself...
So much for that.

[Micaiah Nelson]

Well since this thread hasn't really gone anywhere but to pointless fight and I wanted to take time to say, Submersive all you have to do is keep on learning to be a true pro. Some of yall might of seen this but I thought this link would be better off here to start things off. And he would also be a great example.

"Marko Fucking Djurdjevic" an artist whose last name I took time to memorize. I have no clue how old he was one he did all of these but to tell you the truth. He wouldn't be my idol if he continued to draw like this. And I hope one day you guys would take time to memorize my first name. Ma-Ki-Ya, Micaiah.
http://www.pen-paper.net/artgallery/Marko_Djurdjevic/