Aikido Friday

[Seedling]

Because it's Friday! Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco

[Robert.B]

not much of a aikido follower its so sensative to a sertain distance and can only function with in that gate. You should check out " Qinn Chin Na"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ-DVxEkcYw&mode=related&search=

[DeadlyFreeze]

Aikido and Judo I've never understood, it just a bunch of play fighting.

[Seedling]

Aikido and Judo I've never understood, it just a bunch of play fighting.

Anytime you want to test that theory, just grab my wrist. :devil:

[Goog]

Anytime you want to test that theory, just grab my wrist. :devil:

thats why judo is playfighting, why would I grab your wrist when I could punch you in the nose. I know, you probably have a move for that too, but still, a real fight always ends up as a wrestling match, unless your bruce lee, and you have no need to fight mere mortals.
(Please don't come to my home and karate-chop my arm off).

[Flake]

thats why judo is playfighting, why would I grab your wrist when I could punch you in the nose. I know, you probably have a move for that too, but still, a real fight always ends up as a wrestling match

You realise Judo (a safety conscious derivative of Ju-Jitsu) is basically wrestling, right?

[Goog]

You realise Judo (a safety conscious derivative of Ju-Jitsu) is basically wrestling, right?

Yes, in fact a good friend of mine almost made it to teh olypics in judo.

I guess what I'm trying to get to is, are there any judo moves for when you are on teh ground, hand to hand, cheek to cheek, stomach to stomach?

[Robert.B]

judo comes from shuia jiao which has masterd the hip throw lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmi8EXRy62I&mode=related&search=

[Flake]

I guess what I'm trying to get to is, are there any judo moves for when you are on teh ground, hand to hand, cheek to cheek, stomach to stomach?

Yup, a good selection of chokes and joint locks, most of them regularly employed by world class MMA fighters.

Also, keep in mind that unless you're in a Judo competition there's absolutely nothing stopping a Judo practitioner from simply punching you in the face while you're down there.

[Goog]

Yup, a good selection of chokes and joint locks.

Also, unless you're in competition there's absolutely nothing stopping a Judo practitioner from punching you in the face while you're down there.

ahhh I see. I've just always had a negative view of martial arts regarding actual combat. Mainly because 1. because and 2. a kid who was a black belt in karate got his arse handed to him by a football player.

[DeadlyFreeze]

Anytime you want to test that theory, just grab my wrist. :devil:

My Jujitsu vs your Judo anytime...:wink:

[Farvus]

I guess that's the secret of aikido that everybody underestimate it and don't take too seriously. It could be their first mistake ;)

[Seedling]

Aikido is a defensive martial art. The focus of the art is in taking another person’s energy and using it against them. That means the harder you throw a punch at me, the more energy you give me to fling you across the room.

Practices go like this: two people are paired up. One person is the attacker, the other is the defender. A particular attack and defense combination is demonstrated to the class. Typical attacks are wrist-grabs, shirt-grabs, smash-the-bottle-over-the-head strikes, roundhouse strikes, and punches. The video that noshadowmaster shared is a standard aikido defense. That same move can be used to dislocate the attacker’s shoulder, throw them over the back and onto the floor, hold the attacker dancing in pain while they hop up and down on their toes, cause the attacker to fall onto their butt, or cause the attacker to fall and then pin them down with a joint-lock. Kicking isn’t a standard part of aikido classes because it is dangerous for the attacker, but more advanced students do practice it. Aikido students also frequently dabble in the sword arts and judo, which are the martial arts that aikido came from.

Dislocations aren’t allowed in class, and it isn’t polite to slam newbies onto the floor, so lower-level classes focus on joint-pins and making people fall on their butts. Falling is something that aikido students get very good at. The defense moves don’t get more complex as the student progressive – they just get more fluid, precise, and powerful; and along with it the students learn to take harder and higher falls, up to the point of being able to safely take the impact of being hurled forcefully into the floor.

Students just prior to gaining their blackbelts are the most dangerous, because they like to demonstrate just how hard they can fling and be flung. Typically above the blackbelt level they develop greater subtlety and restraint. The fellow in the video that I showed makes this stuff look magical because he is just that amazingly good. For a bull-in-a-china-shop demonstration, you would need to see someone younger and dumber.

So, go ahead and try to punch me in the nose. I will step to the side and help you on your way to the floor, and then hold you there twisting your wrist while you whimper.

[Flake]

ahhh I see. I've just always had a negative view of martial arts regarding actual combat. Mainly because 1. because and 2. a kid who was a black belt in karate got his arse handed to him by a football player.

Not uncommon.

Lots of traditional martial arts train in a bizarre ritualistic manner completely removed from the reality of a resisting opponent who wants to punch your head off.

I dare say if "black belt kid" had spent a few years in a full contact sparring Muay Thai, western boxing or Kyokushin Karate school the outcome would have been quite different.

[Seedling]

ahhh I see. I've just always had a negative view of martial arts regarding actual combat. Mainly because 1. because and 2. a kid who was a black belt in karate got his arse handed to him by a football player.

In a reputable aikido dojo, it takes about ten years to earn a blackbelt. Sounds like maybe you went to a strip-mall pay-for-your-belts dojo. Those places have earned themselves a shabby reputation.

And it doesn’t help that dojos of all ranks are typically stuck-up about other martial arts and other dojos. The reality is that every martial art has its effective bits and its silly bits.

[Ellingsworth]

Why am I suddenly scared of Seedling, now. :(

The way the guy was fighting made him seem like a ninja, but my only complaint is that the people attacking kind of looked like they were not trying to actually hit him, and sometimes their attacks looked fake. Other than that, I really liked the video. Thanks for posting, please don't karate chop me. :rendered:

[Costau D]

Seedling, I use to take Tae Kwon Do and the instructor there was very good. He also taught a few unique thing including Aikido self defense.

A thing i didnt get, is in these classes you rpactice with a partner. But, it's hard to go full out in practice when your the attacker. What if it was real life and the guy is 6' 3" and much stronger than you how can you even grab his hand and turn it against him? A partner is subconciously too leniant in practice. I'm sure it takes tons of practice to be able to learn joint locks and other moves in the heat of battle intuitively but in cases i dont think it's practical. That old guys students were also being leniant with him, perhaps even faking it, I want to see him piss someone off and have them come at him full force. I'm still a bit skeptical about it.

When i was paired up with someone and i was the attacker I was much stronger and taller then them. They couldnt get me to do anything. Heh i even wrestled the instructor once, I'm so big, he cant keep me down he had to freakin tickle me to fall. That was embaressing btw.At one point I lifted him from the floor on my back, and he was pretty small compaired to me. I dont know though, I'm sure theyll work if you catch someone off guard.

One of the things we did learn in these classes, is when you got the joint lock go for the face, neck, arm pits, groin, and shins. Anywhere it will stun and hurt the person so you can finish him off.

"be like water."

[Flake]

What if it was real life and the guy is 6' 3" and much stronger than you how can you even grab his hand and turn it against him?

Well, you better hope that the heavier guy doesn't know much about actual fighting..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0_svVIDORQ

Otherwise, you're out of luck, hope you're wearing running shoes.

[Costau D]

One thing I like about Aikido though is the philosphy behind it. Your turning the attackers negative energy on to him, and you have to learn not to let emotion interfere in a fight. Always stop a fight before it starts.

I'm 6' 3" 267Lbs. The only person I ever trained with that was fair was a guy that resembled Kareem Abdul jabar. He was 6' 7" and had long limbs. Fast as hell too. I quit training though, because the centers I tried out are just those hole in the wall places in strip malls. No one took anything seriously, and it was more of a self help seminar.

[Jason Rainville]

Not too impressive, since I've been an uke (one who's sensei competed a lot) and I know how it works... at least during display, ukes always go down easy. Way too easy. Not saying that this guy doesn't know his stuff, but I never trust MA displays anymore.

Aikido is still cool though.

[Interceptor]

Seedling, I use to take Tae Kwon Do and the instructor there was very good. He also taught a few unique thing including Aikido self defense.

A thing i didnt get, is in these classes you rpactice with a partner. But, it's hard to go full out in practice when your the attacker. What if it was real life and the guy is 6' 3" and much stronger than you how can you even grab his hand and turn it against him? A partner is subconciously too leniant in practice. I'm sure it takes tons of practice to be able to learn joint locks and other moves in the heat of battle intuitively but in cases i dont think it's practical. That old guys students were also being leniant with him, perhaps even faking it, I want to see him piss someone off and have them come at him full force. I'm still a bit skeptical about it.

When i was paired up with someone and i was the attacker I was much stronger and taller then them. They couldnt get me to do anything. Heh i even wrestled the instructor once, I'm so big, he cant keep me down he had to freakin tickle me to fall. That was embaressing btw.At one point I lifted him from the floor on my back, and he was pretty small compaired to me. I dont know though, I'm sure theyll work if you catch someone off guard.

One of the things we did learn in these classes, is when you got the joint lock go for the face, neck, arm pits, groin, and shins. Anywhere it will stun and hurt the person so you can finish him off.

"be like water."

Martial arts is a set of skills, not magic. I've been all over martial arts since I was about 7 and even I know that no matter how hard someone has trained, a 4'5", 90 pound girl is not going to take down a 6'3" 50 pound powerhouse... Martial arts can teach you alot of useful things, but 90% of it it making sure you're never in a position that you can't handle.

[Costau D]

I agree. I'd like to study this, it's always good to mix it up a bit and find a style that suits you as you practice. Martial Arts is like drawing. If you take it seriously, study it day in and day out and practice all the fundamentals. As you do that you begin to learn what works for you, and you develop your way of dealing with problems. You just got to measure out pros and cons. So saying one style is better than the other all depends on how the person has trainedand how they use it.

One problem with martial arts is some people feel they have to stick with tradition when studying it. Which makes a person weak and predictable.

[HunterKiller_]

"Karate is better than Taekwondo"
"No way! Taekwondo will win!"
"Nah, my Ninjutsu will own everything"

:blahblah: *sigh*

[Magic Man]

I did Aikido for a bit, it was too slow for me, so I got into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA.

Within the first week, I'd learned a lot of things that really opened my eyes to how vulnerable most traditional martial artists were.

I've done martial arts for about 15 years and I don't really see many traditional martial arts that can compare to modern mma skills, 90% of stuff you see done in Kung Fu, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, are absolutely useless for actual self defence.

The first time I ever really saw something in martial arts that blew my mind, was when my 70kg instructor own3d the shit out of a student who weighted twice his weight, and was going 70% full bore into the grappling match, and through the truest skills I've ever seen, submitted him with a beautiful omo plata.

I remember when I quit Aikido, it was when I was told off for throwing a punch a the Sensei and smacking him in the face, and was told that I wasn't supposed to throw a punch, but a knife hand to the throat. I was like...wtf? Shouldn't this motherfucker with a black belt be able to defend himself against anything?

Same for Tae Kwon Do, all that spinning flying kicking stuff is pretty much useless.

This video sums things up pretty nicely =)

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- m

[Costau D]

How good is aikido against more than one person? krav maga would probably be the answer to that. Tae Kwon do has its benefits as well, it's good to know how to get a powerful kick in there. i think aikido for me would be good for last resort just in case.

[Dile_]

there was this show on mTV ... They turned different styles of MA and EMA against eachother... It turned out that the guy who had practiced "Tricking" and a mixed style of Taek wan do and karate was the guy who go the fight...

Also, "tricking" is like gymnastics ( people who trick, like myself, on any tricking related site would have killed me for saying that ) anyways, its a lot of "show off" as in flips, twist etc. But good trickers always win the fight :/

Its just not as affective in the "Arena" where you aren't allowed to punch the face, or other valuable parts of peoples bodies :/

Bruce lee, as mentioned was a guy who really handled techniques and many of those very common to "tricking" .. Same with Jet Li and Tony Jaa..

Those guys could beat the shit out of anyone, but I guess they would fail against a boxer :/

Its kinda hard to measure fighting styles, as it all comes down to practice..
The one who practice the most , the hardest and always, Is probably the guy who will win the fight.

[Costau D]

Yeah drunken boxing has the same philosophy as the guy using "tricking". Confuse your opponent and act as if you lost your center of gravity, and confuse him. Then move in for the strike. Always good to be unpredictable, and if it ends up on the ground wrestling is a good weapon to have.

I'd rather try to keep my opponent away from me, and confuse and embaress the living shit out of him. All people who start fights have huge egos, so it's good to play with them. It's all who can think the quickest, and improvise.

One disadvantage to that style though, is you waist your energy moving around so much.

[Magic Man]

more fun =)

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THe "oh, its good for more than one person" thing is also bull crap, hell, if you can't handle one person, how on earth are you going to handle numerous people? I don't care if you're muhammad-I'm hard-bruce lee, handling 2 or more people is a difficult proposition, especially if they're motivated to hurt you. At best, you will most likely come out scathed.

All that chop socky stuff you see on TV and movies, has lead to a lot of rubbish being bandied around as self defence.

Real fighting is dirty business.

[Costau D]

If i can see a video f a guy using aikido to defat more than one person then I will be surprised. Other martial arts arent useless, Krav Maga is a made for military style. In war your not always gonna be able to step in a ring and wrestle the guy with his buddies around. The whole movies magic thing you say people got stuck in their head i agree with to a certain extent. But not all those martial arts styles are useless. Even brawlers dont wrestle.

I think what your seeing in these aikido tapes, are guys trained in other martial artis strictly staying to that style so they are being stubborn. If they trained using Bruce Lees philosphy (get the whole movies thing out of your head because he was a hard fighter), then we will see an interesting fight.

These MMA fighters seem to me wanting to start a fight. The guys who accept have an ego just as big as theirs, and the ones who agreed not to fight for proof and reassurance are true martial artists.

even though it is just a demeonstration, think ifyourin these situations such as a bus or restaraunt. Would you really want to be on the ground when you dont know if there is anything else to worry about.

Actually lol, mind you, Krav maga teaches and emphasizes you use anything at your disposal. You bight, you grab the groin, you grab the guys larynx. Anything goes.

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Edit: Changed the video

[Magic Man]

I don't really consider Krav Maga a traditional martial art, its some pretty good, and a lot of them do a lot of cross training in wrestling, bjj and all sorts of stuff, they generally aren't stagnant, and are more in tune with what works.

With regards to most martial arts not being completely useless, I agree, but I'm not going to forage through lots of useless stuff to find one gleaming bit of knowledge.

[Costau D]

Yeah true it is impractical to do that. Perhaps find a style for fighting while standing, then if it gets dirty have a style to teach you to fight while grappling. It all depends really.

[Justin.]

I know nothing about fighting. I have always wanted to do martial arts but never had resources to do so. The only fight I ever got in, held my hands up, knocked their hands away constantly until I could shove their face into the ground. It was very effective, at least that time :D

[Elwell]

Why am I suddenly scared of Seedling, now. :(

It took you until NOW?!

[Interceptor]

I did Aikido for a bit, it was too slow for me, so I got into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA.

Within the first week, I'd learned a lot of things that really opened my eyes to how vulnerable most traditional martial artists were.

I've done martial arts for about 15 years and I don't really see many traditional martial arts that can compare to modern mma skills, 90% of stuff you see done in Kung Fu, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, are absolutely useless for actual self defence.

The first time I ever really saw something in martial arts that blew my mind, was when my 70kg instructor own3d the shit out of a student who weighted twice his weight, and was going 70% full bore into the grappling match, and through the truest skills I've ever seen, submitted him with a beautiful omo plata.

I remember when I quit Aikido, it was when I was told off for throwing a punch a the Sensei and smacking him in the face, and was told that I wasn't supposed to throw a punch, but a knife hand to the throat. I was like...wtf? Shouldn't this motherfucker with a black belt be able to defend himself against anything?

Same for Tae Kwon Do, all that spinning flying kicking stuff is pretty much useless.

This video sums things up pretty nicely =)



- m

Vulnerable? Anyone is vulnerable to anything.. you're judging by what? Some people you saw doing katas in a dojo on the weekend in their spare time? Of course they're not gonna be the toughest guys. But you gotta figure, when you have the time to dedicate to making a career of fighting, like these MMA guys who can do so because it's popular TV that yeah, you'll have more practice, so you'll be better.

Almost any type of karate you'll see in a dojo nowadays in put into sport application.. and Tae Kwon Do itself IS a sport, it's not a live combat martial art. It's a sport with strict rules about where and when you can attack someone. They may get into self defense techniques every so often, but it's usually half heartedly and hardly focused on enough to make it of value... But by comparing something like MMA which is meant to be fighting until someone gets knocked out vs tae kwon do, which is a sport that thrives on point systems and technicalities is like comparing a shotgun to a water pistol. They are not intended for the same purpose.

On that last piece I highlighted... imagine you are a football coach. And you're trying to show your team how to defend against a certain offensive play, but some kid keeps doing different plays, making the purpose of your demonstration pointless. The guy is there to help you, and to teach you, making up your own shit on the play is an arrogant thing to do, especially in a dojo, no wonder you got kicked out.. Your sensei's purpose isn't to wow you with his mystical Asian powers, but to break down teachings into it's simplest form, and you're just fucking up a certain thing he is trying to teach you.

[_andreas_]

ive been doing aikido for the last 2 years and its fun.
its relaxing, the (mostly female) people are nice and everyone has this "we are doing something good" look on their face.
but i´m not really into believing that you can defeat evil monsters with this.

ive started boxing a half year ago to keep me grounded.
i think those two sports must be the weirdest combination.
not only when thinking about the people or the look of the place.

[Magic Man]

Vulnerable? Anyone is vulnerable to anything.. you're judging by what? Some people you saw doing katas in a dojo on the weekend in their spare time? Of course they're not gonna be the toughest guys. But you gotta figure, when you have the time to dedicate to making a career of fighting, like these MMA guys who can do so because it's popular TV that yeah, you'll have more practice, so you'll be better.

Who said all MMA is all about fighting on TV? I started training in MMA before it became popular, because I wanted to be able to actually have a real chance of getting out of fights effectively - which by the way I have never had a fight in the street.

My point is, you take two guys, of same weight and of same training length, you give one guy Karate/Kung Fu/Tae Kwon Do and another guy effective cross training which is essentially all MMA training is, and you have a very lopsided affair. Now, a large percentage of Karateka, Kung Fu practioners, TKDers, Aikidokas etc, propose that their martial art is a bonafide way of defeating people in the street. And a lot of people are completely sucked into this, its grossly hilarious because I've been on both sides of the fence.

Talk all you want about self control and all that mystical crap, at the end of the day, if you can't defend yourself with your martial art to a great degree, I'm sorry, but its probably a waste of your time. And this is coming from an asian guy, who grew up on kung fu movies, I just woke up to the fact that mot of it is pure bullshido.

Almost any type of karate you'll see in a dojo nowadays in put into sport application.. and Tae Kwon Do itself IS a sport, it's not a live combat martial art. It's a sport with strict rules about where and when you can attack someone. They may get into self defense techniques every so often, but it's usually half heartedly and hardly focused on enough to make it of value... But by comparing something like MMA which is meant to be fighting until someone gets knocked out vs tae kwon do, which is a sport that thrives on point systems and technicalities is like comparing a shotgun to a water pistol. They are not intended for the same purpose.

I've got no problems with people who know that their martial art is just a sport, but when masters and sensei's profess that their style of MA is an effective form of fighting, I think its dangerous to the practitioners who have a heightened sense of ill founded self confidence.

Do you KNOW how many women and children join TKD clubs in order to "defend themselves better"? The answer is a frightfully mislead amount.

Also, no one says that MMA fighters train any harder or spend any more time than most general MAers out there. Fact is, only a small small small percentage of them ever make a living out of it, there are plenty of Karateka who take it as a way of life, my question is, if they are taking it as such, cold reason should prevail their fighting ability should be equally as high. It is almost never the case.

I have a 2nd dan black belt in TKD - we were made to believe that our fighters were the best fighters on earth because of our flowery kicks. I also have an instructor level sash in Wing Chun, and was made to think that they were the greatest fighters on earth.

The day I walked into a BJJ/MMA dojo, and had my first sparring match, I knew what total bullshit I had been fed all along, so yeah, I have plenty of experience to speak from. I was so totally dominated by a white belt BJJer who had spent the last year training in the place that I felt that the previous 13 years of training had been the biggest waste of time I could fathom, the reality check was harsh.

Here, a grade actually meant something, it mean that you could literally defeat every grade under you, and except for a rare case, this was the cold hard truth of our dojo - if you can't hang with the higher ranks, you don't deserve to be of a higher rank.

One thing that really disgusted me in TKD and Wing Chun was that there were a lot of higher rankers who honestly, were complete and utter shite.

On that last piece I highlighted... imagine you are a football coach. And you're trying to show your team how to defend against a certain offensive play, but some kid keeps doing different plays, making the purpose of your demonstration pointless. The guy is there to help you, and to teach you, making up your own shit on the play is an arrogant thing to do, especially in a dojo, no wonder you got kicked out.. Your sensei's purpose isn't to wow you with his mystical Asian powers, but to break down teachings into it's simplest form, and you're just fucking up a certain thing he is trying to teach you.

Thats one way of looking at it, but fighting is much more an individual activity than football, which is a team sport, each player a cog in the machine to work in unison to score a touchdown. Lack of co-orindated control, and the play wouldn't work.

In fighting or self defence, you are the embodiment of the play, and is very much an individual undertaking.

I understand what you are saying about the coach teaching you something, but fighting is one of the ultimate forms of expanding your mind, a way of blending and moving with your surroundings, channeling the energy in a systematic logical method in order to bring about an outcome of which is deemed favorable to yourself.

In traditional MA, I was taught individual techniques and their counters, but they were taught in a vacuum, and without inlaying them into a highly stressful and thus simulated situation nor how to transition from one technique to another very effectively.

In MMA, we were taught to question and question, in traditional MA we were taught to listen and listen.

If our instructor showed us a technique, we were encouraged to point out flaws and even question when there appeared to be a weakness in a certain hold, an escape route from a choke, or arm bar, because as we questioned, we strengthened the technique pool and improved the quality of the club, rather than absolute knowledge stemming from one single source.

Very often we would drill some basic technique, but the effectiveness of the art form was derived from the assumption of no assumption.

Another related note, is that of all the clubs I've been to, the MMA/BJJ club had the least ego in it, in many of the MA clubs I've been to or been a part of, the higher rankers almost invariably had higher opinions of themselves.

The wrestling clubs I've been to, and the MMA clubs I've been to, there's more camaraderie than subordination, and from these kinda of environments, naturally stemmed respect, rather than having it enforced onto them.

[Nizza_waaarg]

That brazilian jiu jitsu looks pretty tight. Is brazilian jiu jitsu normally taught with mma or do you more or less have to pick up the other mma stuff on your own?

MM, that last video you posted, sounded like that guy in the shorts broke that other dude's neck btw :(

[Magic Man]

That brazilian jiu jitsu looks pretty tight. Is brazilian jiu jitsu normally taught with mma or do you more or less have to pick up the other mma stuff on your own?

MM, that last video you posted, sounded like that guy in the shorts broke that other dude's neck btw :(

MMA is the acronym for Mixed Martial Arts, originally marked as NHB or No Holds Barred, but because of negative connotations and the fact that there are holds that are barred, it was re-marketed as MMA.

MMA is really just a conglomeration or cross training, generally between a striking art (generally Muay Thai, Boxing, etc), a grappling art (Judo, BJJ, Jiu Jitsu, Freestyle/Greco Roman Wrestling, etc), and take down arts (Greco-Roman/Freestyle Wrestling, Judo).

Most MMA schools employ numerous coaches, a coach specialising in one of each of the aforementioned areas, BJJ being one of them, BJJ these days by itself is not as dominant as it was early in the 90s when the Gracies tore up the MMA scene in the US.

Reason being is that pure BJJers generally have shit stand up, people who do not come from a BJJ background are a lot more submission aware, and they generally don't have the best takedowns unless they also train in wrestling or judo - most BJJers do nowadays.

The snapping sound from looking at the video was from a reverse Kimura, which basically dislocates you're shoulder.

Contrary to popular belief, borne of movies, breaking someone's neck is not that easy, it takes an immense amount of leverge + strength + the guy has to have absolutely no idea what he is doing. A guy who has his neck tense, placed in something like a can opener is likely to suffer neck hyper extension and immense pain rather than a broken neck, which is pretty debilitating.

From that position, which is side control, breaking someone's neck is a near impossible task. There are a couple of neck crank holds, but leverage is a problem.

Also, its funny to note the kung fu guy when taken down, tries to wrap his legs around the other fighter's upper body. This is typically what happens to a beginner on their first day in grappling, what he should have done immediately is turn into the mma'er's body, and to try to get his legs back underneath the other fighter's body, to regain either guard, or at least half guard. Under side-control, and with all that baggy uniform to grab, he's going nowhere fast.

If I'm not mistaken, the kung fu guy was someone who believed his skills were so high that he actually challenged MMAer's to step forward, and wagered $10,000 that he would win the fight, or the other guy could have the money.

I think he was quoted as saying after the fight that people like the other fighter was the reason shotguns were invented. Heh.

- m

[Flake]

Since we're on the topic of MMA, did you happen to see Couture v Sylvia a while back?

Pretty convincing demonstration that it's a skill based activity rather than a simple height/weight/reach/age equation I thought.

[Interceptor]

1:Who said all MMA is all about fighting on TV?

2: My point is, you take two guys, of same weight and of same training length, you give one guy Karate/Kung Fu/Tae Kwon Do and another guy effective cross training which is essentially all MMA training is, and you have a very lopsided affair.

3:Talk all you want about self control and all that mystical crap, at the end of the day, if you can't defend yourself with your martial art to a great degree, I'm sorry, but its probably a waste of your time. And this is coming from an asian guy, who grew up on kung fu movies, I just woke up to the fact that mot of it is pure bullshido.



4:I've got no problems with people who know that their martial art is just a sport, but when masters and sensei's profess that their style of MA is an effective form of fighting, I think its dangerous to the practitioners who have a heightened sense of ill founded self confidence.
Do you KNOW how many women and children join TKD clubs in order to "defend themselves better"? The answer is a frightfully mislead amount.

5:I have a 2nd dan black belt in TKD - we were made to believe that our fighters were the best fighters on earth because of our flowery kicks. I also have an instructor level sash in Wing Chun, and was made to think that they were the greatest fighters on earth.

6:had my first sparring match, I knew what total bullshit I had been fed all along, so yeah, I have plenty of experience to speak from. I was so totally dominated by a white belt BJJer

7: One thing that really disgusted me in TKD and Wing Chun was that there were a lot of higher rankers who honestly, were complete and utter shite.


8:Thats one way of looking at it, but fighting is much more an individual activity than football, which is a team sport, each player a cog in the machine to work in unison to score a touchdown. Lack of co-orindated control, and the play wouldn't work.

In MMA, we were taught to question and question, in traditional MA we were taught to listen and listen.

9:The wrestling clubs I've been to, and the MMA clubs I've been to, there's more camaraderie than subordination, and from these kinda of environments, naturally stemmed respect, rather than having it enforced onto them.

1: If you read carefully, you'll see that I did'nt. What I'm getting at is that I think you're comparing guys who do MMA as a career against single moms doing karate on thier free time.

2: Like I said, Tae Kwon Do is a sport. Do = sport application of a traditional martial art. Like you have combative Kenjutsu, and sport Kendo. And combat styles are not rock paper scissors with one thing always beats another. That's a pretty ignorant statement. And something that you could never possibly know, because you'll never spend a lifetime studying each.

3:Your ethnicity has nothing at all to do with this, so I don't see why you'd even bring that up. And alot of people just take martial arts for the workout. In fact I'd say that most of the people who take something nowadays do. What you have to figure is that people in MMA have the intention of fighting, either in a live situation or in sport combat. These guys going into the local dojo around the street just want to kill some time, get excersize and score some points on the tournament mat.

4: There's alot of delusional people out there, yes. But just as many MMA guys have their heads up their all as well.

5: Belt colors mean nothing. Your belt and whatever skill you learned probably mean nothing. Just because some guy tricked you into a dojo like that that does'nt mean there are'nt any good teachers out there. These days, alot of it is business. People come in, pay for a black belt, stay 5 years and are on thier way. They franchise, no one gets really taught. There are guys out there, who will teach only 1 one on, to get great training, or very small classes. My kenjutsu / ninpo dojo in only 4 people. The sensei made us train for a year on probation to ensure that we had the time and would put forth the effort for him to make us an actual student after that. And the training is great. He charges us next to nothing other than an equal fraction of the cash to help give the dojo electricity. You are not looking hard enough, and you're jumping to conclusions.

6:That's not the MA's fault. It was'nt taught well. The problem is that you had a bad teacher, and you just were'nt very good. Not to give MMA no credit, I think it's as valuable as anything else, just not something that drastically dominates everything.

7: That's what we call McDojos.. franchised schools that want money. Still, thta's no fault of the traditional of the actual MA itself, it's some greedy asshole teacher stealing people's money because he did'nt want to work a 9-5 job.

8: There's no problem in questioning something, but let someone show you something before you start questioning it. This is like showing the flaws of solving a math problem before you even know the formula. You're just trying to act like some maverick tough guy and you got your ass tossed out because of it, good. No wonder you got whooped by some white belt, kid... cause you were always too busy trying to out think your sensei before you even tried to hear what he was saying. You're just another one of those paper tigers who would preach martial arts, with no intention of learning. The ass kicking you got atleast got your brain working.

9:Not me.

[sve]

I'm enjoying this discussion so much...Unfortunately I know so little I don't even know who is closer to truth... seems to me that martial art in movies looks like well choreographed dance of two, three and more participants...On the other hand everything should be well choreographed in a good movie... I didn't see any real competitions or more of it, real street fighting in style so to speak...
Boxing has strict rules and traditions too, but it was used in practice in British society in 19th, 20th century...

[joelhinxman]

i say fight to the death that will solve it.

but yea im a big fan both traditonal ma and mma. both are good for fighting if they are trained to be that way but i see alot of stuff from people who think stuff like tkd and wu shu are hard core fighting arts for killing. hell i even saw a thing that said tae bo was good for self defence. man id pay to see someone try to use it for that. but im sure if you take 500 MA people who learned from people to trained them to fight and 500MMA people who take it to learn to fight make them fight youll end up about even.

also if ya think about it alot of people who are considerd MMA fighters are really single disapline. like hoyce grace he was mostly just BJJ but just damn good at it.

[Robert.B]

more fun =)

ABqD8Odaebw

THe "oh, its good for more than one person" thing is also bull crap, hell, if you can't handle one person, how on earth are you going to handle numerous people? I don't care if you're muhammad-I'm hard-bruce lee, handling 2 or more people is a difficult proposition, especially if they're motivated to hurt you. At best, you will most likely come out scathed.

All that chop socky stuff you see on TV and movies, has lead to a lot of rubbish being bandied around as self defence.

Real fighting is dirty business.

HAHAHAHAHAHA amen brah! funny thing is growing up we used to fight like this all the time where i came from, I had no idea we were doing jui jitsu

[Ellingsworth]

Pretty much all fights end up on the ground, that is if you have no rules, more likely to happen in a street fight. Also has anyone followed that pretty well known street fighter, Kimbo? Last I heard/watched he was doing pretty good in the MMA. I listened to an interview with him and he seems like a very nice guy.

[Denart]

Bottom line, the vast majority of all "real" fights end up in a tangle and on the ground. That's why MMA/jujitsu applies to real life fighting so well and why its a much better art to learn than traditional martial arts.

You could argue that you've seen some street fights where it was all punches and kicks...well yeah, punches and kicks, not praying mantis swipes and 360 spinning crescent kicks.

A MMA/jujitsu practitioner knows how to punch and kick AND do ground grappling while a traditional martial art practitioner knows how to punch and kick AND perform fancy punches and fancy kicks

:)


EDIT:
haha!
Check this video out. The martial arts master seems more badass than that Aikido instructor in the original post (especially when he does his invisible force hand wave thing)...but then watch him take on a 3rd party opponent!

gEDaCIDvj6I

[joelhinxman]

haha that guy says hes 200-0 well heres a guy that pritty close.
ramon dekkers he was 210(about)-20

06rDdIEU6s0

but he didnt do to good at the end of his carrer aginst a really good MMA guy
D-QYl02-eBQ

but im sure someone weaker aginst dekker when he was at his peak would have been alot worse off

[Magic Man]

1: If you read carefully, you'll see that I did'nt. What I'm getting at is that I think you're comparing guys who do MMA as a career against single moms doing karate on thier free time.

2: Like I said, Tae Kwon Do is a sport. Do = sport application of a traditional martial art. Like you have combative Kenjutsu, and sport Kendo. And combat styles are not rock paper scissors with one thing always beats another. That's a pretty ignorant statement. And something that you could never possibly know, because you'll never spend a lifetime studying each.

3:Your ethnicity has nothing at all to do with this, so I don't see why you'd even bring that up. And alot of people just take martial arts for the workout. In fact I'd say that most of the people who take something nowadays do. What you have to figure is that people in MMA have the intention of fighting, either in a live situation or in sport combat. These guys going into the local dojo around the street just want to kill some time, get excersize and score some points on the tournament mat.

4: There's alot of delusional people out there, yes. But just as many MMA guys have their heads up their all as well.

5: Belt colors mean nothing. Your belt and whatever skill you learned probably mean nothing. Just because some guy tricked you into a dojo like that that does'nt mean there are'nt any good teachers out there. These days, alot of it is business. People come in, pay for a black belt, stay 5 years and are on thier way. They franchise, no one gets really taught. There are guys out there, who will teach only 1 one on, to get great training, or very small classes. My kenjutsu / ninpo dojo in only 4 people. The sensei made us train for a year on probation to ensure that we had the time and would put forth the effort for him to make us an actual student after that. And the training is great. He charges us next to nothing other than an equal fraction of the cash to help give the dojo electricity. You are not looking hard enough, and you're jumping to conclusions.

6:That's not the MA's fault. It was'nt taught well. The problem is that you had a bad teacher, and you just were'nt very good. Not to give MMA no credit, I think it's as valuable as anything else, just not something that drastically dominates everything.

7: That's what we call McDojos.. franchised schools that want money. Still, thta's no fault of the traditional of the actual MA itself, it's some greedy asshole teacher stealing people's money because he did'nt want to work a 9-5 job.

8: There's no problem in questioning something, but let someone show you something before you start questioning it. This is like showing the flaws of solving a math problem before you even know the formula. You're just trying to act like some maverick tough guy and you got your ass tossed out because of it, good. No wonder you got whooped by some white belt, kid... cause you were always too busy trying to out think your sensei before you even tried to hear what he was saying. You're just another one of those paper tigers who would preach martial arts, with no intention of learning. The ass kicking you got atleast got your brain working.

9:Not me.

1. No, I'm not comparing those two, I'm comparing a contemporary school of fighting thought to a traditional school of fighting thought. The impression I get from you, if that you think that MMA is somehow for the big screen driven purely for monetary gains, can you blame me with statements like:

But you gotta figure, when you have the time to dedicate to making a career of fighting, like these MMA guys who can do so because it's popular TV that yeah, you'll have more practice, so you'll be better.

As I said, maybe 1% of people who study MMA ever make a career of it. And MMA/Vale Tudo has been around a heck of a lot longer than it has been on TV, it originated in Brazil in the early 1900's, which is why Brazil is such a dominant force...none of them were driven by TV popularity, just the simple want to improve their fighting skill.

Thats the main difference between traditional and contemporary arts, contemporary arts seek to evolve and improve, traditional seek to stagnate and stay in the same place, in order to retain their identities, and thus delusional following. Traditional styles are identified by they make up of their technique pool, without which, they would not be identified as such. Contemporary styles are driven by incorporating and ejecting technique that is not effective in achieving the desired outcome.

I'm generalising, and there are obvious exceptions to rules, hell, there are a lot of BJJ places these days that refuse to improve in order to retain their heritage - whatever that means. Actually, all that means is that they too begin to stagnate and their effectiveness fails, their once evolving nature now stagnates in lieu of identity ego and the vision of an improving martial art as envisioned by their masters comes to a grinding halt. That is essentially the problem with many traditional martial arts - not all, but a large number of them.

When a soccer mom spending the same amount of time as another, but in a different style, is able to be more dominating by a long shot, there is something wrong, especially if both profess to improve their fighting acumen.

2. Wrong, "do" does not denote a sporting application of an art, it simply means "way". There are plenty of arts in the do category which do in fact have a heavy sporting application, but there are also plenty that don't. Aikido for one does have a particular style that is very competition oriented, but most styles, such as Aikikai under the direction of O Sensei, actively seek to discourage competition, from their mind, to avoid watering down of their technique. Agree or not, thats not the point, point is, do does not automatically mean sport.

And I'm sorry, you don't need to spend a lifetime learning one in order to realise that another style is better in a larger range of average circumstances. That is a marketing ploy, and a mystical veil behind which many a dillusional master hides behind.

3. I thought I'd bring up my ethnicity to let you know that if there were "mystical Asian powers" I'd probably know about them.

Wait, so if people take MA for the workout...who says that you can add effective practical self defence into the mix? Why not just do boxercise and not kid yourself into thinking you can actually fight or really defend yourself to any large degree? One of the reason's self protection classes for women aren't that popular anymore, is that they are completely and utterly useless, they're given a false sense of security and apparently in more cases than not, pisses off their attackers/muggers more than they would have if they didn't know anything.

Also, stop assuming people in MMA are all there to compete, plenty don't compete as I said. Its just like saying most boxers box to compete...99% will never compete.

4. True, but at least a large portion of them actually know effective fighting techniques.

5. You're making an assumption about myself, you've got no idea who I am, both schools I went too have a very good reputation here, the TKD school I went to is the second largest school here run by a legitimate TKD instructor from Korea. His brother in law is one of the highest ranking TKD instructors in the world, under whom he trained. In competition, the fighters always walked with a large no. of medals. The Wing Chun academy I went to cross trains in Muay Thai and is well known for good fighters. I trained plenty hard, since I give my heart and soul in everything I do, and given this fact, it comes down to the fact that the systems themselves are the base determining factor of fight effectiveness given all other factors being equal.

I'm coming to conclusions that are based on experiences on both sides of the fence.

6. Have you ever stepped inside an MMA dojo. And again, you're making assumptions that I attended poor schools or were not taught correctly, I was given outstanding tutorship within the self imposed confines of each MA.

7. There are plenty of McDojo's around, no doubt about that, thats not to say that people don't train hard in them or aren't given the proper instruction as best the instructors are able to give. There were people who were graded higher because they were on the committee, which I thought was pure bullshit, but I don't dsicount the fact that our instructor was one of the best in the field for that MA.

8. No, I wasn't trying to act as some maverick tough guy, I was told to strike, and I threw a punch. I'm sorry, but when I strike, I don't exactly think of using some knife hand attack, or some crappy lunging punch, the underlying feeling of many traditional MA's when you've been around them long enough, is that of rigidity.

And I wasn't some special case, lots of high rankers from a lot of other styles were shown their ass on their first night. I don't think that is a failing on my behalf, and I learned plenty quick from then on.

9. Good for you.

-m

[Justin.]

damn, dekkers is awesome. most of the MMA I have seen just ends up on the ground and gets boring, but even in that last match where he lost, the other dude was so fast... and he fought off some of those submissions very impressively.

[Magic Man]

haha that guy says hes 200-0 well heres a guy that pritty close.
ramon dekkers he was 210(about)-20

06rDdIEU6s0

but he didnt do to good at the end of his carrer aginst a really good MMA guy
D-QYl02-eBQ

but im sure someone weaker aginst dekker when he was at his peak would have been alot worse off

Dekkers, regardless of age is a machine, definitely pound for pound one of the best farrang strikers ever. He just happened to have a bout with an extremely talented grappler in Genki.

[Magic Man]

Bottom line, the vast majority of all "real" fights end up in a tangle and on the ground. That's why MMA/jujitsu applies to real life fighting so well and why its a much better art to learn than traditional martial arts.

You could argue that you've seen some street fights where it was all punches and kicks...well yeah, punches and kicks, not praying mantis swipes and 360 spinning crescent kicks.

A MMA/jujitsu practitioner knows how to punch and kick AND do ground grappling while a traditional martial art practitioner knows how to punch and kick AND perform fancy punches and fancy kicks

:)


EDIT:
haha!
Check this video out. The martial arts master seems more badass than that Aikido instructor in the original post (especially when he does his invisible force hand wave thing)...but then watch him take on a 3rd party opponent!

gEDaCIDvj6I

I'm fairly certain that is a fake video =)

The Japanese have a great sense of humour, and like to do things like this all the time.

[Silvertone]

What the...am I on Bullshido (http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=10) all of a sudden?? Great vids there btw...

Magic Man, I hope you didn't go to William Cheung's school.

[Magic Man]

damn, dekkers is awesome. most of the MMA I have seen just ends up on the ground and gets boring, but even in that last match where he lost, the other dude was so fast... and he fought off some of those submissions very impressively.

Well, when you know what you're watching, grappling and ground work is extremely interesting. Its very much a strategy based art. This is the reason why Dekkers lost:

aIUWH-tuGGk

Also, there are plenty of awesome grapplers that don't tend to be seen much in US MMA, most US MMA ground game is dominated by Wrestlers who generally don't have the best submissions and don't have a huge idea what to do, other than g'n'p.

In Japan, where the cream of the crop fight, you have all sorts of insane fighters, amazing to watch.

That could change though, with the UFC's purchase of PrideFC.

[Magic Man]

Btw - I give the TKD guy A for effort.

s3X6jrV1vOY

[Interceptor]

hah, whatever man... in the end, you're still some guy who 'trained' too long and still got licked by some kid. I hope no one is getting a bad impression of martial arts because of your inadequacies.


Oh, and you said traditional MAs feel too rigid for you? Well hate to break your heart man, but if you're feeling still, then you're doing it wrong, anyways.

[Magic Man]

Thats it?

Oh well, you've got your point of view, I've got mine, we'll never change each other's mind so have fun playing with your wooden swords pretending to be a samurai ;)

- m

[Costau D]

To be honest. This is my point of view.
Mmi2KJm2bNE

[Magic Man]

To be honest. This is my point of view.
Mmi2KJm2bNE

HAHAHAHA, that was fucking awesome.

[Magic Man]

Oh, and you said traditional MAs feel too rigid for you? Well hate to break your heart man, but if you're feeling still, then you're doing it wrong, anyways.

Haha, lighten UP kid, you're going to give yourself an aneurysm.

[joelhinxman]

oh yea genki is hardcore.
yea and im sure there gona be a big shift in the quality of the fighters in the ufc now that they are moveing pride fighters over. they already took 2 titles in i think the only 2 chance i pride fighters had yet.

[Costau D]

Tip about fighting. NEVER tuck your thumb in your fist. I found it hilarious when i saw two fights in one week at my school, the bully ended spraining or dislocating their thumb.

[Magic Man]

If anything, the quality of MMA fighters native to the US scene is going to skyrocket because of the influx of world class competition.

[Magic Man]

Tip about fighting. NEVER tuck your thumb in your fist.

What if I want to break my thumb? I bet you didn't figure THAT into the equation smarty pants.

I thought the baseball guy was going to smack Carey with a bat, the tazer made it all the funnier.

[joelhinxman]

oh and i alway find this funny. pimps are funny.

YEv6i-lhIWc

[Magic Man]

Hey check this out, some guys who are modern day ninjas. Oh dear lord, I can't believe anyone subscribes to this bs.

Zr-4D55SBtw

[Costau D]

nin jitsu is not suppose to be about fighting, it's about reconnaisance and deception. Anime wapanese are ruining the meaning of it. Damn Naruto... Actually i shouldnt blame the show.

wksvKJ8-w4o

[joelhinxman]

but wait woudnt all that yelling kinda give them away. i thought ninjas where sneaky

[Costau D]

They are but when cornered, they have to unleash it. Anyway yelling is just for intimidation and breathing. Ninjas have to learn to assasinate quickly and quietly. And if you want cheap fighting, they are masters at it. But these guys have amazing balance. Youc an see that in the science of fight documentaries.

[Denart]

I'm fairly certain that is a fake video =)

The Japanese have a great sense of humour, and like to do things like this all the time.

thats a relief..."the force" thing was too TOO whack :nohope:


I'm kinda like you MagicMan. I was brought up in Shao-lin Kung Fu (performed quite a bit on stage) and was hit hard when I realized that I can't really apply this Kung Fu thing to real life!

Reality strikes...


Btw - I give the TKD guy A for effort.

s3X6jrV1vOY

would you say Muay Thai is the most effective martial art form for strikes?

[Magic Man]

thats a relief..."the force" thing was too TOO whack :nohope:

I'm kinda like you MagicMan. I was brought up in Shao-lin Kung Fu (performed quite a bit on stage) and was hit hard when I realized that I can't really apply this Kung Fu thing to real life!

Reality strikes...

would you say Muay Thai is the most effective martial art form for strikes?

Thanks man, and I totally know how you feel, its a sickening feeling.

Muay Thai, boxing, krav maga, seidokakan karate, and many others are excellent striking arts, the biggest thing they have over more traditional arts is the battering experience.

Its one thing to have all the best techniques in the world, another thing to be hit hard, that really changes a lot of things.

Muay Thai at the root of it is really a very simple art, there are a limited number of strikes, all of them found in other striking arts such as TKD, which has many many more things than MT. The thing about MT is it has that brutal efficiency, and the battering experience.

Some of the toughest fighters on earth are fighers I've seen in Lumpinee stadium - whether they could beat a good submission figher, no they can't, its a pretty conclusive fact an expert grappler will always have a massive edge over a pure striker.

Nevertheless, MT is definitely up there as one of the best striking arts, like anything though, its also depends on the quality of instruction. Mind you, real MT, not the stuff you see on Ong Bak heh.

[Magic Man]

Oh, if you're interested, find out more about K1 in Japan, world's best striker's converge there, its the premiere striking competition on earth, big prize money, awesome fighters.

[Costau D]

the only thing i found depressing about fighting. Is it's not all it's cracked up to be when you were a kid. In real life fighting is cheap, ruthless, and no fun at all. These guys do it for money and fame.

If they didnt get paid or had any real purpose to use what they have learned, I wonder where some of these guys would be. I like martial arts as an art form, but it sucks that can only be applied to entertainment.

Where I'm from every fight I've seen is usually just one guy wanting to start one, and the other guy either trying to protect himself or really not wanting to fight, OR he is tired of getting picked on and goes crazy. It'a always one sided, and there is always a guy with a bully mentality. Well, not always.

I guess you can tell i hated high school. :P Bullies are a huge pet peeve of mine.

[Seedling]

I like martial arts as an art form, but it sucks that can only be applied to entertainment.

Kind of like playing a musical instrument, or drawing? :P

[Denart]

Thanks man, and I totally know how you feel, its a sickening feeling.


There is a lighter side to this mass perception that martial artists can kick ass. During junior high, the prep jocks would be afraid of me because I performed some serious Kung Fu in the talent show, haha, I love that feeling -- but I know deep down they would whup me because of their size and weight (but I keep that to myself...)


The thing about MT is it has that brutal efficiency, and the battering experience.


Ah! I heard they continuously hit/beat their shins to harden them into bars of iron. That's why they can block with their shins and not be affected :nohope:

[Juhani Jokinen]

Whenever people start to discuss martial arts it definitely stirrs things up :D I've been doing Aikido for about 2 years now and before that Judo. During the 2 years I've been in a couple of fights which eventually ended up to be the typical 'wrestling' match on the street. However, i found that the technique of reading the amount and direction of force can be very effective in mere 'down-to-earth' wrestling without using the full blown Aikido techniques. The principle is what counts in my opinion- after you start to get a crasp of it you can use it to your benefit in numerous ways.

Just my two cents.

-Juhani

[Robert.B]

i had to share this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE8DEnnHxDU

[Justin.]

noshadowmaster, I think that guy played too much Tekken as a kid.

[Silvertone]

Anybody watching Human Weapon on History Channel? They've only done 2 shows so far in the series, Muay Thai and Eskrima.

http://www.history.com/minisites/humanweapon

[Joshua Fountain]

I had a friend who studied Wing Chung Kung Fu and Jeet Kune Do. He had been in over 40 street fights and only lost once. The most people he fought and won against was 4.

I asked him to teach me some stuff. He taught me how to throw a decent punch and make solid strikes because, honestly, I wasn't that great at it. But he really taught me the best things about martial arts and fighting:

Realize how many weapons you have.
Anything goes as long as you're the one awake at the end of the fight.

Yeah, that's about it. Style doesn't matter. Skill does. Ability to take a beating does. Ability to dish it out does. Period.