first step into the business world

[sickelsick]

hello, i am a concept designer and i was recently asked to help in an unpaid game project. i tihnk it is a good idea to build up my portfolio/resume, so i am willing to submit work to them.

but before i just send in some drawings, what kind of safety measurements do i have to take? or is there ANY at all for an unpaid project? do i need to copywrite things? any written agreements? anything of the sort?
what extra precautions do i make, to make sure i get credit in the game?

if my question isnt clear enough please let me know and i willl try to clarify!
thnx in advance to all the help.

[Seedling]

Your ratio of worry to return is all wrong. If all you are getting out of a project is your name in the credits, then relax. Having your name in the credits doesn’t matter. What matters is the experience that you get out of the project, and the images you’ll generate that you can use in your portfolio.

[otis]

"First step into the business wolrd" isn't exactly the title I would call this thread. Unpaid "work experiece" is a conflict in terms if you ask me. I don't care if you are working with George Lucas. If you are not going to be compensated in ANY way then it's just indentured servatude.(slavery)

If you want to build a portfolio of concept work, just come up with your own stuff. If you design some good stuff, nobody cares what it was for.

[Seedling]

I disagree with otis a bit. There is experience to be had in teaming with others that can’t be acquired working alone. But he’s right that it isn’t a first step into the business world.

[Qitsune]

Even non-paid projects need to have agreements in writting. By default your work is your own but it never hurts to write it down. If they promise you share of possible future profit, write it down too. Everthing they promise, write it down. I have seen amateur projects fall appart and then the team mates go as far as hire lawyers to try and sue each other for assets. Don't get in with teams with unrealistic goals.

[otis]

Seedling is right, "There is experience to be had in teaming with others that can’t be acquired working alone" ...BUT this is just basic people skills. Don't expect to develop a great portfolio because you worked with others. Who knows, if you get an idiot for an Art Director, you may be forced to create crap. It happens!

How valuable is your time?
If it's not worth anything to you,(work for free)
Then it won't be worth anything to others.

Sure you can be charitable..but choose how much and to whom you give it. : )

[Magic Man]

I disagree with otis a bit. There is experience to be had in teaming with others that can’t be acquired working alone.

I agree with Seedling - and although I can see Otis' point of view as well, working in a team environment paid or not is a skill that many people who hire, value greatly.

It proves that at least on some level, you can compromise, take direction, etc.

There are plenty of illustrators who on their own are awesome, they come up with great illustrations, and all, but put them in a team environment, where compromise and rework depends on someone else, and many artists will falter.

A technical genius who doesn't have much communication and team work skills in the games industry has about as much use as tits on a bull. A slightly lower skilled artist who does have team work and communication skills, worth a lot more...and this is coming from a previous art director in the gaming industry.

I don't care how good your work is, if you can't work well with the other art team members, or can't take instruction, you're dead weight.

- m

[otis]

Magicman,

I remmember you! You were that crappy AD I had who made me put tits on a bull!!!
J/K!!! LOL!

[Magic Man]

Why did you draw those titties saggy? I said PERKY, you never listen!!!

[Seedling]

Seedling is right, ...BUT this is just basic people skills. Don't expect to develop a great portfolio because you worked with others.

VERY good point. Though, I would say teamwork among artists is a special category of people skills - it's people skills for people who have been told by society that they are supposed to work alone and have big egos.

[otis]

I disagree. A Special category? If somone thinks, "they have been told by society" that he or she are supposed to work alone and have a big ego, then that person has a serious identity crisis.
I don't care what field they are in. If somone can't work with others or take criticism then they better go see a shrink.

Somone once told me that the most egotistical artists they know usually are the most mediocre ones as well. Those big egos are only trying to hide massive insecurities.

[Seedling]

When talking to classes of college students about the games industry, one of the most typical topics the students raise is a fear that by joining a team they will no longer be proper artists. A majority of people in the US hold bizarre assumptions about artists, including the assumption that the quintessential artist is a Van Gogh-like figure who suffers alone for their art. These students have grown up surrounded by people who hold this attitude.

[GriNGo]

Sufferer or not, Van Gogh kicks ass. Sorry for going a bit OT ;)

[sickelsick]

ok... lots of good advice here,

but seriously... sometimes conceptart.org has a hard time answering serious but simple questions.

main question - lets get back to the topic. is there security measures for submitting work?

before anyone gets all off topic again, heres a few points to remember....
1. it IS free work
2. i DONT mind submitting the FREE work
3. im doing it to work in a game team environment
4. and it does make a nice addition on a portfolio.

i dont want to sound like a smart ass but sometimes when i ask a simple question on CA, i get a lot of sidetracked explanations. (i mean seriously, i was even told that i posted this question with the wrong title! then sum1 else said its slave work! i just wanna know what the precautions are.)
i understand there are professionals on this site, but a brother is just tryin to follow a dream on helping with concept art for a game... THATS IT! THATS ALL! i just want to see it come alive! im not concerned if others dont submit free work because its "slave" work.

magicman, i think ur the only one that agrees that its a good experience.

[sickelsick]

o, and thank you Qitsone. i tihnk ur the only one who answered my question

[Seedling]

Dude, I already gave you my answer. If you want to get more answers from more people, fine; if you don’t like my answer, fine; but don’t badger me or the other folks who answered your question for not slavishly sticking to what you want the topic to be.

[otis]

sometimes conceptart.org has a hard time answering serious but simple questions.

No we don't, they are all just flying over your head.

but before i just send in some drawings, what kind of safety measurements do i have to take?

Here is one: How about making sure you get paid?

We are trying to wave a bunch of red flags at you.
But don't listen to us, just go ahead and work really hard on a game that you will never see a dime for. But at least you will have a CREDIT on a game nobody will ever hear of. And good luck getting this company to sign a contract giving you all rights to your work. Because employers will love to give up the proprietary rights to the look of their game!

Please explain to me why in the world you think working for free for somone else,will help you break into games?
Especially a company that can't or won't pay you??
Oh, I forgot, those are always the best ones to work for.

(I hope you picked up on my sarcasm, and don't take it personally)

[Micaiah Nelson]

Yes, we do get off topic quick here. But Seedling answered your question in his first post then otis and they started arguing their points. And Seedling was right. Its all about building you portfolio cause you'll have to start somewhere So you can go into an office and say you do have experience. But what do I know I'm only 19. But still wouldn't you treat it like your applying for a normal job?
And they werent getting off topic they were aguing their points so you can get a better understanding of their points. Like a debte
I don't know about copyright but if your free lancing than all you get is credit. Its thier idea your drawing so it probably goes to them. But you may want the written agreement so you do get something out of it. If they do make something out of it you have a paycheck coming or just credits. When you sit down with a real job interview or whatever they do in the idustry they are gonna look at skills and what you've done. Why would they ask you how much you made. Theirs alot of Small companies out thier and you'll need to start some where and build up. Right? But I maybe wrong I'm just 19. I'm just repeated some stuff the AI counsler said to me.

[Magic Man]

I personally am all for a project in which you don't get paid if you don't have any real world experience, provided that you get good work out of it, the experience is priceless.

I would however limit the number of unpaid projects you decide to try out however, I'd personally say to only do 1-2 MAX, after that, you're just wasting your time.

Now, you not getting paid is also assumed that no one else if getting paid. If there is money at all involved in this project, you should be seeing a percentage of it, if you don't, then walk.

But as Seedling said, don't worry too much about legals at this stage, its not a massive issue, the most important things to get out of it are teamwork experience, and some decent portfolio pieces.

That should answer your question.

- m

[otis]

If there is money at all involved in this project, you should be seeing a percentage of it, if you don't, then walk.

Exactly.

If it's just a bunch of friends working on a pet-project, then contribute as much as you want for free. I'm just assuming it's not since any game that wants to see the light of day costs millions and millions of dollars to make.