My First Illustration Job - Working With a Publisher?

[Grimlohk]

Hello all,
I've always been more of a the painter type, but I recently completed my first job as an illustrator and I have a couple questions about working with a publisher. I've attached some of the images to give you an idea of my work.
I haven't signed anything so they are technically my property still.

I kind of feel like I'm being taken advantage of so please let me know if you have experience with this stuff.

The illustrations are kinda boring and are for a Biology lab manual, ranging from basic to complex. I did 20 final images plus 3 unused versions, for a total of about 70 hours of work. They are only paying for the 20 they are using >:|
The professor and the publisher are very satisfied with my work, and they said they would like to work with me more.
The pricing agreement was $30-$45 per illustration, but now they are saying a flat $37 per image. This brings the total pay to $740, or about $10.50 an hour. not bad for sitting on my butt at home with my wacom, listening to music.
But is that a fair price? I am sooo unexperienced with this.

Also I had these questions, which he answered. Is that fair for them to be able to use your images for profit in many future publications, without your knowledge or benefit?

Q: can you use these images in future publications without my knowledge?
A: Yes, as any publisher you would work with, they would own the material.

Q: Would I get compensation for future use?
A: No since the publisher owns the rights.

He then went on to say:
You will find that the equation of high-quality illustrations plus reasonable prices will attract multiple jobs from multiple publishers. We work with an illustrator by the name of Craig White almost exclusively. He is an amazing illustrator that is very affordable. You are the first illustrator that I have worked with other than Craig in the past six years. I would enjoy speaking with you and assisting you in your effort to break in to this industry.

What do you guys think? I'd love to have some feedback from someone with some experience in textbook illustration.

[Spiralfish]

high-quality illustrations plus reasonable prices will attract multiple jobs from multiple publishers

Another words other publishers will expect great work for dirt cheap from you too.

I would enjoy speaking with you and assisting you in your effort to break in to this industry.

This is sort of an intangible promise...I mean they MIGHT...but .....


Do you have a contract?

[emily g]

Q: can you use these images in future publications without my knowledge?
A: Yes, as any publisher you would work with, they would own the material.

Q: Would I get compensation for future use?
A: No since the publisher owns the rights.

I'm a little confused by this. It sounds like he is talking about ALL publishers and not just the policies of his own company.

If he's talking about all publishers, what he says isn't true. The specific terms are worked out between the artist and the company, and terms can be set limiting how the publisher can use the work and whether they must compensate you for future use, etc.

[Scannerlight]

Good God,
Just had to mention this..
Freelance hourly rates generally range in the $50 per hour area and up, so $10/hour is broken down in terms of being :Royally screwed:

$37 per image is also extremely low, obviously it depends on what they are looking for but just FYI you can get $100 for a pencil sketch from some companies and upward of thousands for full Illustrations.

Q: can you use these images in future publications without my knowledge?
A: Yes, as any publisher you would work with, they would own the material.
Yes, this is true but ONLY if you AGREE to this in a contract. If you agree to sell full copyright to them, you should also be getting a much higher rate because of reasons mentioned in your second question. You do not have to sell full copyright, you can get royalties for published artwork or you can sell printing rights per year or per one time use etc... so this guy is bullshitting you, he's just trying to enforce what "he wants" not what is profitable for you.

Q: Would I get compensation for future use?
A: No since the publisher owns the rights.
He's right, again though ONLY if you AGREE to sell full copyright and there must be written forms and contracts to back this up. If you're selling full copyright this means you no longer own the work and the publisher does have the right to print it as many times as they wish, or to sell the art to another publisher and continue to print it in any media they wish. This is why you take all of that into account and boost your price up usually by 150-200 percent on top of what you would normally charge for the creation of the image.

I would enjoy speaking with you and assisting you in your effort to break in to this industry.
In general he wants you to bend over, take it up the rear and continue to work dirt cheap because in the end it will be best for him to have two artists he will now being taken advantage of, not just the one. I say drop him, or boost your prices by a hell of a lot and see his reaction because he's a waste of your time.

I did 20 final images plus 3 unused versions, for a total of about 70 hours of work. They are only paying for the 20 they are using
You should have stated in the contract how many pieces of art were being done, a per image rate, a full project rate and a kill fee in case they canceled any number of images while you were in the middle of creating them. All finished work would be compensated for and all work in progress work would be compensated for by a 50% kill fee. Once again they screwed you by not using/paying you for the 3 images. It sounds to me like you missed out on approx $3,500 worth of work... if calculated by the hour. If it were per image and you work quickly which it seems you do depending on how complex these illustrations were, you could have made substantially much more. I never work by the hour, only per image because I'd rather not be held back by the client. If you do work per hour, you make sure to clock your hours including any telephone calls and discussions online, or even waiting for a reply by e-mail in order to continue work.

[Spiralfish]

ScannerLight, Very well put.

[Grimlohk]

Well the crappy part is he never got the contract to me early on, so now I'm finished and I have all these pictures I can't use otherwise, and now he is pulling this stunt. I should have seen it coming.

On the plus side I haven't signed anything at all releasing the right of the images to them, and they are needed for a biology lab manual for the fall. Does that give me elbow room?

[Scannerlight]

Well the crappy part is he never got the contract to me early on, so now I'm finished and I have all these pictures I can't use otherwise, and now he is pulling this stunt. I should have seen it coming.

On the plus side I haven't signed anything at all releasing the right of the images to them, and they are needed for a biology lab manual for the fall. Does that give me elbow room?

Yes, elbow room would be a safe assumption, if you do not have specifics of releasing full copyright to this publisher, you should feel free to sell prints of the work, or to put a stop to them "continually" using the work. You still have the right to mention that what you were paid for was the creating of the artwork and that usage terms have not been purchased.

They may say, well we paid you so if you're not going to allow us to own the full copyright we want our money back but all in all.. you have the upper hand here. You can demand a kill fee at this point, and only allow them non-exclusive printing rights wherein you are the copyright holder, or whatever terms you wish while keeping half of the payment or all of the payment. It's really up to you, they have basically screwed themselves by not signing a contract with you and then paying you.

[ArmoredGorilla]

Where to begin?

Well, yes, it looks like you didn't make out the best on this deal. But don't worry, this is just the first job. You will learn a lot as you go.

Basically, you should have had a contract that outlined every term before you began work. And no, the client does not own your artwork; an illustrator normally only sells the right to 'use' the artwork. This usage is often sold for a certain period of time ( a year perhaps) or for a certain number of uses (1 printing). The idea is that if and when the product becomes a success, the artists wont be left out of the loop because the client will have to return and renegotiate the usage rights.

If a client wants to fully own your work, this is called work-for-hire. It amounts to a full legal transfer of authorship from you to them and its as though the client created the artwork themselves. You would essentially be an employee of theirs, but with none of the benefits - so this kind of relationship is to be avoided. It's the least favorable scenario for the artist and therefore the most expensive for the client. The cost is usually prohibitively high to most clients; you can justifiably charge as much as 3 or 4 times the standard fee in most cases.

Anyhow, all this info may not be 100% correct; maybe someone else can chime in and correct me if I've said anything inaccurate. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the sale will not default to a work-for-hire in the absence of a contract, so you technically still own your artwork. Get yourself educated about this stuff and go back and tell these guys how it really works :)

Illustration is time consuming work; compared to a photographer for instance, you will only create so many pieces in your lifetime. Make sure you're as well compensated for each as possible. Start by going out and buy the Graphic Artists Guilds Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines - an absolute must when you're beginning.

[Grendel Grack]

It could give you elbow room, but if you aren't sure of your rights, the guy just might try to take advantage of you even more. Contracts are excellent, but if you don't know how to enforce them you still have the same problem of getting screwed. Check out these threads in the Employment Discussion forum: Contracts (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53377), and Copyrights (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52146). Have a good read, prepare some notes, then tell this jerk how it works in the real world. Also, NEVER EVER give away high resolution scans or originals to your client until you have received payment.

[Scannerlight]

I would second what ArmoredGorilla said word for word. Take that advice to heart, it's pretty much textbook, and as mentioned you own the work without having signed a contract with them.

Seeing now that you uploaded examples of the artwork mentioned, I don't think you were screwed with the prices concerning the complexity but the rest of these terms still apply. This kind of work falls under line art, refined clean sketches, textbook diagram illustration, and it's black and white... not generally very technical or time consuming but it's still something that takes skill and draftsmanship.

btw- Don't sign anything if you haven't been paid already. Let them pay you what is owed and then you can mention all the advice people are giving you about what to discuss in the contract to protect yourself since at this point in time he doesn't own any of the work you have created.

[Grimlohk]

Just to clear a couple things up.
The contract he sent me IS a work for hire agreement. But I havent signed anything yet, and I haven't been paid either.
However, everything has been finalized and sent in for print, and has to be ready for the fall semester's lab manuals.

Should I take the money and run and be glad to have something published in my portfolio, or should I put up a fight? I didn't even think of the money when I was doing the job, but it did turn out to be pretty stressful and time consuming.

[tensai]

Well the crappy part is he never got the contract to me early on, so now I'm finished and I have all these pictures I can't use otherwise, and now he is pulling this stunt. I should have seen it coming.


first - i think it's really important to come to an agreement that is fair/rational if possible. not to get the most out of any assignment or whatever. approaching the breakdown of your price like that often goes a long way.

that being said, this little game does seem to pop up every now and then - pressuring you because you have all that time in it, or because the deadline is close. if they want to play a game like that, again try to keep it focussed on fairness. which means, don't try to screw your client but also don't let yourself be worked over.

responding to this one is pretty simple. i mean all you have to do is put the pressure they generated themselves back on them. walk away and say sorry but unfortunately your demands and their demands are at this point in time/on this project not compatible. don't play the game, again, just focus on what is reasonable - don't be fixated/stubborn on a certain figure, but you should be stubborn on fairness.

the people giving the assignment are in for a whole lot more cost then the extra money you're asking if the whole project falls through. and if you did go for a fair amount then they will not mind paying it cause they know you're not trying to screw them over.

i haven't being doing this for that long and i don't know about the states. but i have never let this situation get to me, and it always turned out to what i felt was totally fair.

edit - hmm, eh, i think you shouldn't have given the hi-res files before getting the money or at least have something agreed upon... still, don't be intimidated.

edit2 - to know what is fair you need to do your homework. i always try to figure out what is a common price and think through how that does and doesn't apply to the particular assignment. then i will have three figures: an ideal one, a still reasonable one, and most important - the walk away one. good luck.

[Eric Lofgren]

We work with an illustrator by the name of Craig White almost exclusively. He is an amazing illustrator that is very affordable. You are the first illustrator that I have worked with other than Craig in the past six years. I would enjoy speaking with you and assisting you in your effort to break in to this industry.



Everyone's already said what I would say. But for the future, I would add that this paragraph above was a big flag. My first question to myself would be- "If they like this guy Craig so much and he's very affordable, why aren't they using him for this job? And why, out of the blue, does this guy, who I don't know from Adam, want to foster my break into the industry?" I know in context it's easy to read much into what you've provided, but at the same time, it doesn't take long to be able to pick up things that should give you caution. In other words, my answer to my question would be- "Craig, this guys's first benefactee, finally asked for more money and he's been bounced."

Doing this sort of mental Q&A at least gives you some sort of firmer platform from which to negotiate more forcefully from. In the illustration business I find it's better to be more safe then sorry, as I don't want to get saddled with difficult clients.

[brianhamner]

You probably would have wanted to figure this out before agreeing to the job and doing the work. Will anyone else buy these illustrations? If not you might want to take the money and chalk it up to experience. But next time, you only want to sell ONE TIME PUBLISHING RIGHTS unless you are getting paid more. When someone wants to buy All the rights of an image (which is what this guy is trying to do) then you would want to get alot more, because you wont be able to resell them.

[dkounios]

you already know what everyone else has said...but I still feel for ya man. thats rough.

Also, sending low res/smaller pics to them before you get paid might help too. that way, if they do plan on screwing you, they only have the small files and cant really do much with them.

good luck in the future. everyone has made some great notes in here

[DavePalumbo]

if you don't know how to enforce them you still have the same problem of getting screwed

remember the ultimate rule of contracts: nobody wants to go to court. Contracts are mostly used (in this business anyhow) to make sure that both sides of the deal are crystal clear on the details. Basically, to avoid situations like this. If a party breaches contract, it has to really be worth a great deal to the offended party to take it to court (unless it's a large corporation, in which they do that sort of thing every day), because legal battles are very expensive and probably shorten your natural life span. This isn't to say that anyone should break their contracts, but hard legal action as a solution is most often discussed by those who've never had to deal with it. Damage to reputation should be reason enough to adhere to a contract.


that aside, your situation sucks, but this is a lesson that everyone needs to learn, and learning the hard way is often the most effective. If you made the agreement on price, you should stick to it, contract or no. Not laying out a specific price per piece is a mistake, and I have to say that the money does seem to follow your initial agreement.
If you didn't discus rights and all that, you can try to negotiate, but you need to decide if it's worth it. Yeah, that's a shitty deal, but on the other hand, how much use will you get from these images in the future? Besides portfolio use (which they certainly should allow, work for hire or not), do you see much future in reselling these?

I've dealt with a number of small publishers who seem to feel that paying less means that they ought to get everything. In the end, all you can do is either go along or say that the deal is unacceptable. If you feel too taken advantage of here, tell them that you refuse to sign unless they meet you in the middle with the rights and/or pay. Be prepared to walk if they don't, because you can't negotiate with bluffs.

Or you can just sign the thing, get paid, and consider it a learning experience. Always be clear on your details (pay and rights) before you do the work unless you fully trust your employer, which is very rare.



as an additional note: a number of major publishers do still actually use work for hire agreements. A number of others don't. There isn't really a standard practice, but it is all negotiable. Pick yourself up a Graphic Artists and Designer's Guild Handbook to Pricing and Ethical Guidelines for more detailed info on the subject.

[Gilead]

I'm happy to say that this has been the most level headed discussion of this topic that I have ever heard or read. The replies so far are thoughtfull and well stated.
The only thing I'd like to add is that until the contract is signed you have the legal right to re-write it, sign your version of it and send it back to them. if they accept your version and sign it it's a done deal, no lawyers needed. So for example you could strike the parts that say "work for hire" and write in "freelance" etc.
This is true of any contract. The next time you rent a car, you could take a pen and strike out any portion of the agreement you don't like, sign it and give it back. They of course are free to refuse the deal at that point, but if they accept it it's legal as is and will stand up in court even with pen marks all over it.
My advice in your situation is to take the money you agreed to and move on, but with the "work for hire" clause marked out of the contract. That way they can't claim precedent if they try it again.
The range of prices payed in publishing is extreme. It's hard to say what's really standard.
If you can get by on the money you made keep working for them, you don't have to be great pals to have a business relationship.
Good luck.
Nice work by the way.

[2100]

With pay per piece deals, the faster you can draw, the higher your wage.

[Jushra]

i'm glad this thread is here. i've had weird experiences with clients too; lots of good info here!

if nobody's mentioned it yet: use your own contracts. don't let the client push one of theirs on you.

[Elwell]

"We work with an illustrator by the name of Craig White almost exclusively. He is an amazing illustrator that is very affordable. You are the first illustrator that I have worked with other than Craig in the past six years. I would enjoy speaking with you and assisting you in your effort to break in to this industry."

What do you guys think? I'd love to have some feedback from someone with some experience in textbook illustration.
Have you considered contacting the other guy they use to get his take on things? He has a website.

[Grimlohk]

Thanks all for the feedback. I had never even thought of this stuff when I was first starting the job. Partly because I was being helped into it by a friend who is a medical illustrator, and I assumed she knew what she was doing.
I reached an agreement with the publisher for one-time use and that the unused images be included in the total. Still I think they are getting a bargain for the job, and I shudder to think how much more they are going to charge the Professor for all the textbooks and such. I guess any publisher you work with is basically milking their own profits out of your work.

I will try to get a copy of the Graphics Artist Guild book. Thanks for the reference to it.

You guys are great, thanks again for all the great feedback! :)