Do you believe?

[wiggum]

I'm sure that this topic has come up before, and I hope I don't regret bringing it up, but I would like to know what the general outlook of this community is on religion.
I go to a pretty liberal college, and there is this group called s.a.n.e. (society of agnostics, nonbelievers and the enlightened) that is constantly staging protests of one form or another against religion. I'm not going to detail it here but this group does seem to use a lot of unfair tactics when it comes to their crusade against religion. I bring this up because I don't want this thread to turn into some kind pissing contest, I just want to hear some opinions, lets start with mine:
Personally, I am a Catholic, and after studying physics and mechanical engineering for a few years I personally believe that there is enough evidence to support the idea of intelligent design. When I say that I mean that there is enough evidence to support the idea of God, there is nothing that can support any one faith over another that is a matter of personal choice.
I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say.

[DeadlyFreeze]

Don't hijack science because your theological belief is to weak to stand up to true scientific method.

You can guess from that what I am.....

[Interceptor]

General outlook? This place has how many thousands of members? That's super vague... and kind of pointless, really.

[emily g]

I personally believe that there is enough evidence to support the idea of intelligent design.
Uh oh. I am a religious person as well, and I have been following the intelligent design movement for a couple of years now.
I find them to be one of the most dishonest groups of people I have ever come across.

Their "tactics" are abysmal and their science is worse.

It looks like you are rather new here....we have quite a history of evolution/intelligent design/creationism debates on this forum.

Edit: The best way for me to explain myself is to send you here:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58880

This thread has links to a talk by Ken Miller--a biologist, evolutionist, and Catholic. He can explain the intelligent design movement better than I ever could.

[Elwell]

I believe that emily g is awesome.
I also believe that you don't want to get on the wrong side of the CA Science Brigade, Ladies Auxiliary®. A finer band of skepchicks you won't find anywhere.

[0kelvin]

Fantastic.

How about this for a deal. If you can read through these 8 previous threads on the subject (1 (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48849), 2 (http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33392), 3 (http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=92051), 4 (http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86819), 5 (http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=84819), 6 (http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39874), 7 (http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38046), 8 (http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25284), only a small sample of the total creationism vs. reality threads here) and your point has not been made in any of them, only then do you get to respond to this thread.

I believe that emily g is awesome.
I also believe that you don't want to get on the wrong side of the CA Science Brigade, Ladies Auxiliary®. A finer band of skepchicks you won't find anywhere.
I second that motion! :teeth:


Eric

[Magic Man]

I believe in God, I'm a fairly strong Christian, but I don't wish to convert others and hate it when people try to force their beliefs on others.

Non-believers who try to force their point of view across are just as annoying to me as someone from a religion who tries to convert me.

From my point of view, most religions are just different sides of the same mountain, trying to get to a similar place. If people just respected other people's religions as much as they respect their own, I'd imagine there'd be a lot less unhappiness in the world.

- m

[Blue]

This thread could explode. So uh.. before the nukes drop.. Believe what you want. I've done a lot of research to come to my own conclusion on this and I usually feed the rabid athiests with my findings. However, I understand the need for a god regardless.




God is to the Faithful, as a parent is to a child.
1)The child is free from responsibility as he follows every direction the parent gives him.
2)The child can break rules, apologise and be forgiven.
3)The child can be free of stress and live at peace as the parent will protect them.

#1+2 support Athiesm
#2+3 support Faith.

Life is a complicated, stressful and depressing thing. Depending on who you are, you believe what helps you get by.

[Ellingsworth]

This thread could explode. So uh.. before the nukes drop.. Believe what you want. I've done a lot of research to come to my own conclusion on this and I usually feed the rabid athiests with my findings. However, I understand the need for a god regardless.




God is to the Faithful, as a parent is to a child.
1)The child is free from responsibility as he follows every direction the parent gives him.
2)The child can break rules, apologise and be forgiven.
3)The child can be free of stress and live at peace as the parent will protect them.

#1+2 support Athiesm
#2+3 support Faith.

Life is a complicated, stressful and depressing thing. Depending on who you are, you believe what helps you get by.


Great post, agree completely, but I'm an agnostic. I still believe but not in any modern religion. I think there has to be some sort of deity out there in the universe or outside of it. Just not sure, and to say the universe was created from nothing makes me depressed, so I find happiness in believing something out there made our universe. To each their own, no need to push opinions on each other. :)

[DeadlyFreeze]

Any system that statically denies the pursuit to find a better system of understanding is fundamentally wrong. Simply believing in something because it makes you feel good is the path to ignorance, take a page out of history look at America today and what its become.

Of course it's perfectly ok to not look for this knowledge, but in the end you don't get to be a part of the conversation.

[tomwaits4noman]

IF God exists he has a sense of irony
after all we evolved from apes

[aesir]

lol wendigo. Wtf kind of agnostics are those. Agnostics don't stage protests. We're the type of people who don't really give a shit one way or another. Go tell them to stop making a bad name for our apathetic nature.

[dfacto]

Atheist, Intelligent Design is bollocks, militant atheists deserve cockpunches, and the sky is blue. That covers it for me I think.

[Farvus]

I usually don't write anything in this kind of discussions but...
I just can't understand why science and religion have to exclude each other. To me they are rather complementary things.
I also don't understand why there need to be only one explanation for all religions. People want to arrange it into something simple like some vacuum cleaner manual while it's much deeper than that. :)

[m@.]

I wonder what's the percentage of people who think sun orbits around the earth.

edit : thanks a lot for the link on Ken Miller, Emily. It's very relieving to know there are people like him around. There are great speeches on the topic on this page too : http://www.ted.com/ (among other things)

[Molly]

Wendigo, in response to one part of your question = why are those non-believers (s.a.n.e) protesting? I dont get it....thats stupid.. So, the non-believers believe its wrong to believe in something -should we belive them? cos thats close to religion as you can ever be...

M@ - I believe the world is flat, and if you live in Japan, Alaska, or either pole, your going to fall off the edge...

[Costau D]

lol wendigo. Wtf kind of agnostics are those. Agnostics don't stage protests. We're the type of people who don't really give a shit one way or another. Go tell them to stop making a bad name for our apathetic nature.


Yes, please don't lump us with any other group. Truth is we as humans don't know anything yet, so basically religion could just be looked as a hypothesis to something we don't understand. Except people treat the matter as fact, can't both sides be a little more objective about this?

Strip away superstitions that's the only thing wrong with religion, but it doesn't mean there isn't something greater than us going on. We might be a part of something larger. Not everyone has the same concept of God as Christianity, Judaism, or Islam does. So I'm on the fence on this one. Just, stop making it a dick measuring contest... When i can see a debate between the western religions and atheism that doesn't get personal, and filled with emotion/ego, and passive agressive behavior, then I will take what anyone says seriously.

Live by example, and don't preach. Please, that is all I have to say.

The only two people I would truly listen to in these debates is emily g and Seedling. Although on both sides of the spectrum they explain themselves better than anyone else could in these debates here, and there have been many. Oh sooooo many. It's like a broken record of George Carlin, and Jesus put together. Only it's not funny or enlightening.

After post slike these I always have som moment in video that reminds me of something. Here it is. Heed this womens advice, and if you hate hearing the F word well...ok
aflYrjDHmms

[Jason Rainville]

Non-believer. Even though I don't like religion, I don't actively try to tear it down or anything... unless a churchie talks to me and is particularly annoying or ignorant about his or my concept of life. Then I lay into them :teeth:

[Lohan]

http://www.dosometalking.com/images/banana.gif

nuff said

[JAG.]

i never participate in these threads.. because it really is pointless. its not like any one person will 'convert' from one point of stance or belief to another because of a thread on a forum. if they do, they were weak minded to begin with.

so i say, believe whatever you want, and dont worry about what others believe. if it works for you then great, if it doesnt.. then go on your merry way but at least TRY to live a happy, peaceful life. whatever you believe.. - JAG

[Jason Rainville]

@ Lohan: Well played, sir.
@ JAG: Aparently Stoph had some sort of awakening or some such in a thread gone past. Not sure from what camp to the other etc etc...

[Ellingsworth]

http://www.dosometalking.com/images/banana.gif

nuff said

Amazing.

[Cthogua]

As far as why this group is protesting, probably because the other campus religious groups do as well. I don't know about your school in particular, but I went to a pretty liberal college and the few conservative and hardcore christians that went there felt threatened I think. So they made the most noise. They were constantly complaining that some of their student fees went to fund student groups with agendas they didn't agree with, such as the gay and lesbien student group, or a muslim group. Which is funny because if you looked at the actual break down of which groups got money from the student fees and how much the christian groups BY FAR got the largest amounts, yet no one was shouting for them to be stripped of their funding. Despite doing things like the Campus Crusade for Christ's parade of big banners of chopped up babies from late term abortions through campus.

I think most of the Abramaic (I think thats the term) religions have completely lost touch with the mystical, spiritual side of things and have become obsessed with the rules, structures, and literal meanings of things. Which, to me seems like the most artificial part of religion. I do think it is part of our nature to wonder about "the divine." Whether that stems from our questions regarding our place, purpose, and ultimate destination, or is purely a recognition of the disconnect we have between our minds and our bodies is impossible to really say....but fun to argue.

Ellingsworth, you say that believing the universe came from nothing makes you depressed...First of all, no one is saying it came from nothing. It came from a fantastically complex, unimaginably enormous physical event, and before that it wasn't "nothing" it was just something else. Secondly being depressed that the world wasn't made in the magical whirl of some dietys finger is ignoring the amazing spectacle that is our world, our universe, and even our brain. I find it more amazing to think that everything around us is the result of unfathomably dense layers of complex interactions the scope of which we can't really even comprehend without the aid of computers, and even then we still grasp at loose straws. Intelligent Design often offers up the arguement of "how could all this amazing stuff be made, without someone to make it?" I find this unbelievably arrogant, and completely blind to the scales largers than man. We imagine an ego, a thing like us arranging things, picking forms for this creature or that....yet the world and the universe is SO MUCH MORE than just us and our simple limited views and angry, constrained egos.

Here's a quote from Albert Camus' "The Myth of Sysiphus"
"I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

Alright, well I've already written enough to ensure that no one reads this, so I'll cut myself off here. If anyone made it...thanks for reading :p

[-sideshowbob-]

religion has its purpose but religion in general is as stupid as the ppl who have FAITH

i think my mind has faith but as far as iam aware of ..faith is useless and it doesnt change anything(like opinions )) but the illusion of my reality
what i mean is : we can have faith in any kind of stuff.. but the stuff itself doesnt change and if that stuff is reality.. faith does not change it
reality defines itself and so does truth - no matter what i believe in it wont become truth or real just because i have faith



why have faith in a god or religion when one can find the truth of it and make the experience of the existence of that god/truth and when i KNOW hes there i dont need to have faith anymore


why believe in god when i know hes there

[Jason Rainville]

but the illusion of my reality
what i mean is : we can have faith in any kind of stuff.. but the stuff itself doesnt change and if that stuff is reality.. faith does not change it
reality defines itself and so does truth - no matter what i believe in it wont become truth or real just because i have faith


Until you look at some stuff on string theory, and how we collapse waves of potentials and dictate what happens in the universe through our observation of it. But I'm too ignorant of it all to really get into it...

[Steph Laberis]

Do you believe?

...in life after love? (after love, after love, after love...)

I can feel somethin' inside myself, I really don't think it's strong enough, no...

Cher songs aside, I also believe that Emily G is awesome. Who's up for banana bread?

[Seedling]

The only two people I would truly listen to in these debates is emily g and Seedling.

I just dropped my bagel onto the keyboard in surprise. I’m honored!

Atheist here. I find great spiritual fullness in the idea that the simple physical laws that govern the universe could have build something as rich in complexity as life. I don’t see anything wrong with the idea of seeing those laws being interpreted as a deity. But I also don’t care to live in a society in which such a view is expected of everyone.

It takes all sorts to have an interesting world. People on every side range from reasonable to loud and loony. I would get into this more, but I really should be getting some work done now.

[Rhynome]

My belief on a god is that it's basically another word (or G-d is...) for the mechanics of the Universe, the way stuff works. That plant, in nature, that is not a god, nor is it part of any god, but the ratio that means that it doesn't burst into flames all of a sudden is 'G-d'.

No, I didn't reach this conclusion by trying to make science fit in with 'my god'. I came to it more as a reaction to what I've been shown throughout my life.


As for people who openly go out of their way to campaign against religion, I disagree with policy like that. This S.A.N.E. that you mentioned, they've as well as made a new religion out of atheism. Those people really, really annoy me; they don't seem to see what they've done.
On the same note I have somewhat of a problem with people trying to convert others to their religion, though in the case of Christianity it's considered moral to do so in order to save them; so it can be problematic.


As for intelligent design/creationism. I personally find the very notion of an intelligent god to be ridiculous. It implies that G-d is sentient, has thoughts and plans. To me any mention of thoughts and plans are just euphemisms or metaphors for chance - the way things are to be.
To say G-d thinks is in my idea a stupid thing to say because that implies G-d is like Its creations, men, women, sheep*. Then again, plants (as far as we know) don't think.

G-d didn't come to a conclusion to create the Universe, G-d created and maintains it, but not through thought. That is how I came to my reasoning of the 'mechanics god'.
G-d is not intelligent; intelligence is part of nature, not the forces behind it.


*That one's for La Palida.


Edit: It seems that as I wrote this post Seedling wrote and submitted a post on pretty much the same thing, only written far better. So I suppose all I have left to say now is that, in short, yes I do believe in that deity and also it's spelt and pronounced 'Beigel', not 'Bagel', dammit!

[Ellingsworth]

...in life after love? (after love, after love, after love...)

I can feel somethin' inside myself, I really don't think it's strong enough, no...

Cher songs aside, I also believe that Emily G is awesome. Who's up for banana bread?

Holy shit(no pun intended)...as I was reading that, in my right hand I had a plate of homemade banana bread with a glass of ice cold strawberry milk, no lie... *Bows before psychic powers.*

[wiggum]

Okay, I'm glad that so many people have given their opinions, I have not read through every single reply but I think I should clarify a few things:
1.) When I say there is evidence that God exists I mean that there is proof that the universe has a beginning. Things that happened before the beginning of the universe can have no effect on the universe that exists now, so questions such as "who or what set things in motion?" are not really for science to answer. Now if it is proved that the big bang theory is wrong and that time and space have gone on forever, then I will have to change my position.
2.)I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVERT ANYONE!!!! , if you don't like religion for whatever reason, and there are plenty of good reasons not to like religion (like suicide bombers and crusades), thats fine.
I apologize if I've offended anyone, please don't get pissed at me for asking a question.:xpld:

[Jason Rainville]

When I say there is evidence that God exists I mean that there is proof that the universe has a beginning. Things that happened before the beginning of the universe can have no effect on the universe that exists now, so questions such as "who or what set things in motion?" are not really for science to answer.

Not treading on your beliefs or anything, but I don't get the reasoning behind those statements. Proof that the universe has began = evidence of god? And if anything did happen 'before' the universe was created, then that means the defenition of the universe as all-encompassing has changed (apart from paralels) and that whatever happened before the 'creation' of the universe actually WERE the initial conditions and therefore affect what happens in the universe.

Finally, questions such as 'what set these things in motion' is one of the key things science has tried to answer about almost everything through observing results and confirming, revising or eliminating hypothesis. But if you're reffering to just the origin of the universe, I would agree that right now blind hypothesis without evidence is just about as scientific as shruggin and saying god did it. I think we have bigger (or at least more practical) fish to fry at the moment.

[Seedling]

2.)I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVERT ANYONE!!!! ,

No worries Wendigo. :-) Talking about your religion is not the same as trying to convert someone.

[Ilaekae]

The most important question is, "Do you believe in faith?" Asking if someone believes in "God" is a declaration of war. It makes "you" someone's favorite child, and everybody else is evil in some fashion.

As an artist/sculptor and a human being that believes he is part of a greater "whole," I can not stand in just about any place in the universe and believe that everything I see has no reason to be there. It's just something that I can sense. A completeness, for want of a better word.

I don't know where what is around me came from. I don't know what will happen to it tomorrow. I can only make an educated guess based on the best knowledge available to me. Faith allows me to discuss the idea/possibility that maybe it all has a purpose/creator/source that I can't recognize yet...without sounding like a lunatic.

My personal belief system comes closest to the Pagan/Wiccan. Because of this, those who believe in a "God" blame me for the events of 9/11, child abuse, all of man's evil throughout history, and being so incredibly stupid that I shouldn't be allowed to produce more of my kind.

Tell me you believe in "God" and I will assume "you" want to humiliate me, hurt or even kill me. I hear no act of faith coming from "you," just a belief in "your" righteous ability to prove to me that "your" god is better than my god. Tell me that "you" have faith in what is, what has been, and what will be, and I will treat you as a friend, offer you coffee, and sit for hours discussing whatever you wish. The world kills people in the name of God. I have faith...and that allows me to believe that I can be better than that...

I do not have to lie to support or defend what I believe.

I do not have to kill to prove what I believe.

I do not have to twist reality into a pretzel of written words in some holy book to excuse my own actions.

I do not have to build myself an opaque cage to feel safer from the things that might still be out there that I haven't seen yet.

I am not afraid to die for my faith, but I will not kill for it. That would make my life an empty joke, and my memory an obscenity...

[Duq]

Lots of old man wisdom

definitly one of the best posts so far

[joelhinxman]

so i was not going to post anything becuase i dont really care one way or the other. but now im really really angery. why am i angery? becuase i have a damn cher song stuck in my. thanx steph thank you very much.

oh we need a fist shake in anger smiley

[ChaoticKnight]

This definitely is a volatile and dangerous thread, but regardless I'll throw a few words in. Blame should never be thrown around, no matter what you call yourself. I am a Christian, without a doubt, and I will not go into arguments or apologetics as to why I believe that, all I will say is that Christians have a bad light cast on them today because of televangelists and over-the-top folks who are way out of line with their fire-and-brimstone tactics. The fact of the matter is, to be a Christian is to be like Christ, who spent his time with everyone, even the dregs of society, loved everyone because they were God's children, and did not throw blame towards those who were undeserving.

Also, I think a lot of the whole "I dislike Christianity because they constantly try to convert me" is a case of the chicken and the egg. We get attacked because in our view, if we're going into things with an honest heart, is that we're trying to help other people. Some people just don't want, or don't "need" to be helped. In my opinion the best way to lead someone to the Christian faith is to live by example, not beat them with a Bible.

Anyways, as I said I'm not the argumentative type, I base my faith purely on trust, (I deal with a serious chronic illness, I'm just not strong enough to deal with it on my own :/) not information, and therefore I am not prepared to defend anything, just sharing a bit of my perspective.
:yayca:

[wiggum]

In my last post I said that there was proof of a diety in the fact that the universe has a begining. It is my understanding of Einstien's general theory of relativity that time and space are not simply backgrounds in which events take place, they are actually dynamic elements that change just as much as the objectst they effect. If you go back to the beginning, all the way back, everything, including time and space were compressed into a single point.

I don't think that it is all that unreasonable to believe that some force that we simply are not capable of understanding set things in motion. I'm not saying that an old guy in a white robe molded the whole damn thing out of clay, but the laws of the universe make it behave in a fairly predictable way, so maybe there is something out there that made those rules so that the universe could operate on its own...like a clock.

Now I figure it doesn't hurt anything to believe, I mean you could compare it to going to a casino and someone giving you a free chip to play on the roulette wheel, if you win you'll get everything, if you loose you loose nothing. Hell, you wouldn't ever even find out you lost, you would be dead and buried.:dead:

[Elwell]

Now I figure it doesn't hurt anything to believe, I mean you could compare it to going to a casino and someone giving you a free chip to play on the roulette wheel, if you win you'll get everything, if you loose you loose nothing. Hell, you wouldn't ever even find out you lost, you would be dead and buried.:dead:
I can't believe you're pulling out Pascal's Gambit. You really haven't thought things through anywhere near as much as you think you have.

[DeadlyFreeze]

I don't think that it is all that unreasonable to believe that some force that we simply are not capable of understanding set things in motion.

Hello oxymoron.

[Seedling]

In my opinion the best way to lead someone to the Christian faith is to live by example, not beat them with a Bible.

You’re my favorite type of Christian. Hats off to you!


Now I figure it doesn't hurt anything to believe, I mean you could compare it to going to a casino and someone giving you a free chip to play on the roulette wheel, if you win you'll get everything, if you loose you loose nothing. Hell, you wouldn't ever even find out you lost, you would be dead and buried.:dead:

You could believe because you are spiritually moved, or because you find compassion or the order of the universe to be so beautiful that you could not conceive of it coming from anywhere but a creator; or you could believe because the contents of the Bible make the most sense of all the theories you have heard; or you could even believe because it is what the other members of your community believe. But instead, you believe out of fear. How hollow and sad such a belief system must be. Surely you have a better reason for your beliefs?

[Phuzion]

Einstein's General Relativity Theory did not explain everything, but up until recently was the best they had. It was missing Quantum Physics and could not explain the Singularity that you refer to as "...the beginning, all the way back, everything, including time and space were compressed into a single point." But with new technologies and new understandings they're finding that there was actually matter before the Big Bang, and that the Big Bang Theory is actually recurring, thus they're calling it the Big Bounce. So was there actually a "beginning"?

I would draw my line at saying I'm Spiritual, but I am not religious, unless being Humane and having Common Sense are religions. I believe in a creative force that Modern Science cannot explain, as I think there are other forms of science beyond mathematics. But I don't believe in an old, white-bearded man in the clouds that's pulling strings. We govern our own fate, which gives us more responsibility than most people are willing the accept. Yet there is also a certain amount of destiny... of course everything is full of contradictions, right? :P I have no problems with religion, as I understand that many people need something higher than themselves to believe in, but the way it's being used these days makes it harder and harder not to have a bias opinion. I think 90% of the religions at this point are grossly misinterpreted, as is being shown in Islam right now with the knowledge coming out that Muhammad's wife was also the boss of his business, and that all the oppression of women goes against the Koran... so how many other points have been altered in how many other religions?

That's all I'm going to say.

[sve]

I listened Ken Miller you advised... he talked in front of a very friendly to his view auditory... and still he got some questions to answer and unfortunately he decided to avoid a direct answer...
I was very curious to hear him and the Reverend, a professor who started the lecture with a prayer to answer how exactly concept of God,,,, more of it, Catholic God coexists with the denying of creation of our world ...
One of them called Bible a hopeless quest... another said that Bible should be read critically... and I might even agree ... but I wonder to whom and with what hopes they prayed in the beginning and especially in the end wishing for a new supporting judge being appointed to them in the war with creationists. This is quite an interesting contradiction...so very human and funny... I wonder what kind of faith they both have... how strong and sincere it is.

[m@.]

But with new technologies and new understandings they're finding that there was actually matter before the Big Bang, and that the Big Bang Theory is actually recurring, thus they're calling it the Big Bounce. So was there actually a "beginning"?

aren't you going a bit fast to state that ? there's several different theories about the beginning of the universe, but good ole big bang is still dominant I think? unless I'm completely ignorant about some new developments, and I'd be interested to hear your sources!

EDIT : indeed there's some very fresh material on that Big Bounce thing : http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Bojowald6-2007.htm , very interesting, but still another theory, can't wait to hear more developpements on that :) thanks for the heads up!

[Phuzion]

I'm not crazy, I swear! :P

[wiggum]

I'm glad that I was able to get such a response to my initial query. After looking through some of the replies it is pretty obvious that my opinions on the subject are not as strong as I origionally thought. I'll have to put some more thought into this, but I'm going to just focus on my art for now.

[m@.]

:yayca:

[Eric Lofgren]

Also, I think a lot of the whole "I dislike Christianity because they constantly try to convert me" is a case of the chicken and the egg. We get attacked because in our view, if we're going into things with an honest heart, is that we're trying to help other people. Some people just don't want, or don't "need" to be helped. In my opinion the best way to lead someone to the Christian faith is to live by example, not beat them with a Bible.



Leading by example is fine. But there's still a measure of expectation behind it. That the aim of everyrone's life is to live under the contraints of the Christian (or any) faith, whether they know it or not. I think the best way to lead someone to the Christian faith is to leave them alone and let them find it on their own.

[Phuzion]

I'm with Eric on that one!

ChaoticKnight: you say "Some people just don't want, or don't 'need' to be helped."

You put "need" in quotations which tells me you clearly don't believe that they don't need help, which means you are still judging them by a faith that is not theirs, and that is still "beating them with a bible." If I'm to be judged, I would like to be quantified through my ability to live as a good human being, not my measure of guilt for all the supposed sins I've committed, most of which I don't consider to be sinful.

[Hyskoa]

Since when did thinking become about defending other people their thoughts?

Big bang and intelligent design were nice theories, but I came up with my own.

Should any of those be taught inside a science class? Only when there is sufficient proof.

[ChaoticKnight]

Leading by example is fine. But there's still a measure of expectation behind it. That the aim of everyrone's life is to live under the contraints of the Christian (or any) faith, whether they know it or not. I think the best way to lead someone to the Christian faith is to leave them alone and let them find it on their own.

Alright, and what about people who live their entire lives without ever hearing about God? That's what missionaries are for. I don't view Christianity as having constraints. If everyone lived as Jesus lived, or the way God created us, there wouldn't be any need for "constraints" or rules, even authority in general. No one is perfect.
The expectation of living should be found personally by the individual through his own judgement while reading the word of God. I'm not a Catholic, so I don't believe in intercessory prayer or confession to a priest, its between me and God, I don't need a priest to tell me how to pray or read the Bible.

"I'm with Eric on that one!

ChaoticKnight: you say "Some people just don't want, or don't 'need' to be helped."

You put "need" in quotations which tells me you clearly don't believe that they don't need help, which means you are still judging them by a faith that is not theirs, and that is still "beating them with a bible." If I'm to be judged, I would like to be quantified through my ability to live as a good human being, not my measure of guilt for all the supposed sins I've committed, most of which I don't consider to be sinful."

You're looking for a fight. I put need in quotations because people always say they don't need help from God. Its been the biggest response to sharing The Word with someone, that they don't need help. I was not insinuating that I'm judging them for their beliefs, although every religion and every way of thinking finds within it the self-righteousness to judge others.
The whole point of Christianity is that salvation is not found through good acts or being a good human being, but through accepting a gift that has been given to us freely by God.
Plus the last few sentences sound like you're getting awfully defensive. Relax, I've already said I don't want a fight. I'm not a debater. I believe what I believe because I NEED it, and if other people see me living my life the way I do and want to know why and how I live that way, I'm happy to tell them. I try my best not to judge, but judgement is something that everyone is at fault of. Sorry if you misread me.

Besides, we won't truly know everything until we meet God someday. So I guess we'll all have to wait till then to find out. That's basically what it comes down to.

I don't want to have to pull the "It's my opinion" card, since its overused by everyone, but again I'm not writing a book here. This is a thread for how we feel about this and what we believe.
:yayca:

[Prometheus|ANJ]

so questions such as "who or what set things in motion?" are not really for science to answer.

Maybe it's not for anyone to 'answer'? But now we roll directly into the domains of the Dread Emperor Semantics... what is an 'answer' and how does it relate to 'truth'... and then Mr. Epistemology pops up his head and nothing is resolved.

This threads reminds me of:

e_IFb6bbvpE

[Hyskoa]

e_IFb6bbvpE

Every athëist on earth needs to do this.
So they get someone different at the door, every 2 minutes.

[wiggum]

Prometheus|ANJ -You're probably right, I think it was St. Augustine who said something to the effect of "God has prepared a special section of hell for those who inquire too deeply into his origins." People who believe should just pay respect to their diety as best they can and leave everyone else alone.

[Seedling]

Heehe. That St. Augustine had a lovely sarcastic streak!

[DeadlyFreeze]

So literally, ignorance is bliss. lol

[Elwell]

People who believe should just pay respect to their diety as best they can and leave everyone else alone.
How you get that from Augustine, of all people, is beyond me.

[AlexC]

do you believe
dammit, I thought this thread would be about whether you believe in ghosts:blah:
and to answer that question, no, never seen a ghost:dad:

[Coinpurse]

your all wrong.


The answer lies here.... in the spirit of the truth. (http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=291953)

[tomwaits4noman]

interesting reading the different voices here,

I was thinking hypothetically speaking....
what if somehow it could be proven that there was only one right true correct religion that was the pure and proper way of communicating with and worshipping God
lets call it "Blah Blah" (so as not to single out any pre existing religions)
and that and that all other religious systems were incorrect in their practices etc...

This is just a question not an attack on any religious faith>

would you abandon your own religious faith for the new one or continue to follow the rites and rituals of your old faith even though it has been proven false?
=============================
THe way I see religion, FAITH OR THE LACK OF IT, is that it answers questions that we have in relation to ourselves and the universe and also gives us strength and guidance when we need it.

I think everyone is entitled to a belief system that does not cause them to harm, kill or badger other people.

I saw a man preaching on the street at the weekend, of how Satan is evil and we must turn to God very old Testament hell and fire.
I had to ask myself would not be better to preach of a loving God rather than one that you may turn out of fear and paranoia

You can argue about certain teachings passages in say the Bible (the text I am most familar with) I think we all know that Genesis is not how the world was created but science is there to answer the questions on a universal level and faith and religion on a personal level.

As for non believers protesting organised religion.... I will say this
I think Blind faith is the most dangerous of all, to allow an organisation or religious group think for you is just wrong opne the papers and you will see the harm this can do- I am not picking on any one group or religious belief. Fantatical devoution is a form of brain washing....

[Mungus]

Goddammit, not another religion thread-
Please admin, stick a fork in this one, I think it's done.


p.s On a slightly different note, - maybe I can plant a few seeds here.......When the Catholic church recants it's greed, and puts the Vatican and the rest of their enormous catalogue of arts and riches (and a pimped up Popemobile) up for sale on Ebay in a dramatic bid to end third world debt and poverty, then I will sing it's praises. I'm tired of their santimony and pomp. I wanna see faith in action.

[ChaoticKnight]

When the Catholic church recants it's greed, and puts the Vatican and the rest of their enormous catalogue of arts and riches (and a pimped up Popemobile) up for sale on Ebay in a dramatic bid to end third world debt and poverty, then I will sing it's praises. I'm tired of their santimony and pomp. I wanna see faith in action.

Agreed, but the catholic church isn't all of Christianity. Just be aware of that. :wink:

[Interceptor]

Goddammit, not another religion thread-
Please admin, stick a fork in this one, I think it's done.


p.s On a slightly different note, - maybe I can plant a few seeds here.......When the Catholic church recants it's greed, and puts the Vatican and the rest of their enormous catalogue of arts and riches (and a pimped up Popemobile) up for sale on Ebay in a dramatic bid to end third world debt and poverty, then I will sing it's praises. I'm tired of their santimony and pomp. I wanna see faith in action.

A government may do something, but that doesn't reflect the wishes and actions of he entire nation; religion is the same way. If you want to see Faith in action, you should honestly try going to check out some local churches and seeing the type of things alot of them do to help the community.

[Cthogua]

Agreed, but the catholic church isn't all of Christianity. Just be aware of that. :wink:

Not according to the pope. I believe the pope just recently issued some statements related to the primacy of the Catholic church, and reaffirming the medieval belief that the Catholic Insitution is the only way to communicate with and be part of god.

"Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation."

[Seedling]

Not according to the pope.

Well of course not. The pope is the head honcho of only one branch of Christianity. He, of course, believes his branch to be the correct one, and that all the other branches are based on mistakes and lies. That doesn't mean he's right.

[Cthogua]

Well from what I've read this declaration is acutally going back on a more liberal doctrine that was established in the 60s to "modernise" the church. He apparantly also decreed the Latin Mass should be brought back. Still its funny to me that not even people who believe in that same god can agree about how to worship him, and claim the others will be made to suffer eternally for not worshipping him properly.

to add something to the debate: Does believing in an afterlife facilitate violence?

[Seedling]

Why should anyone not in the Catholic church believe what’s in one of the Catholic church’s documents?

It doesn’t surprise me that different factions of religions disagree. They have no proof of anything with which to unify. They can only be unified by someone powerful at the top of the organization telling the members that “this is what we believe”. But even the most powerful such people can’t reign in everyone’s beliefs, so schisms are inevitable.

[Jason Rainville]

The pope throughout history has changed so much church law and set himself so much higher than god through his changes that I'm surprised any christians still listen to him.

[ChaoticKnight]

Why should anyone not in the Catholic church believe what’s in one of the Catholic church’s documents?

It doesn’t surprise me that different factions of religions disagree. They have no proof of anything with which to unify. They can only be unified by someone powerful at the top of the organization telling the members that “this is what we believe”. But even the most powerful such people can’t reign in everyone’s beliefs, so schisms are inevitable.

We SHOULD be unified in that its the same God, and we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. But the catholic church tends to make it something different, saying that we need intercessory prayer to communicate with God, etc.
In fact, for the most part, catholics are the laziest Christians when it comes to helping others and reaching out in the community. Would Christ have wanted it that way?
Oh, and the Pope is NOT God. Period. The end.

[pyrohex]

After Peter, popes started going downhill. For example, the Farneses, in this NYT article (http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/07/15/travel/15footsteps.html?ref=travel), were incredibly corrupt. I wouldn't use them as a measuring stick for Chrstianity. You'd find people running much closer to Christian teachings among the saints and martyrs, unless some corrupt pope managed to bestow sainthood on a long dead family member or something.

On the hand, I thought this might interest some of you:

The Flat Earth Society (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum//)

Supposedly, they believe there's a giant Head Government conspiracy that messes with compasses and turns vehicles around when they near the end of the world, which happens to be walled up by giant ice walls. All the international government disagreement is actually just a charade put on to misdirect us.

I still can't tell whether its a joke or not, but it juusssttt goes to show...

[Rhynome]

We SHOULD be unified in that its the same God, and we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. But the catholic church tends to make it something different, saying that we need intercessory prayer to communicate with God, etc.
In fact, for the most part, catholics are the laziest Christians when it comes to helping others and reaching out in the community. Would Christ have wanted it that way?
Oh, and the Pope is NOT God. Period. The end.


I went to a Catholic primary school, me from age 5 'til 10 was immersed in a fairly Catholic environment, but by no means solely Catholic (my family is not Catholic). So, let's establish that as my single possible environmentally/institutionally induced bias.

Now, I'll continue, to be quite frankly honest I'm disgusted by your view of Catholicism. Not you individually, but the view you seem to have of Catholicism and Catholics on the whole. Sure, the Catholic Church has done some very nasty stuff in the past, and still acts in a way that to be honest I disagree with, but I would never dream of saying something along the lines that you have shown us. You are entirely entitled to your view, but I both strongly advise and request that you reconsider it.

First I shall start with a question; how often do you run into Catholics, and especially how often do you do so in terms of religious interaction. In other words have you ever been to a Catholic Church, participated in a Catholic Mass, worked in the community with Catholics [from a Christian viewpoint]?

Based off this, you mention that, "In fact, for the most part, catholics are the laziest Christians when it comes to helping others and reaching out in the community." Yet in merely the paragraph before you tell us that you believe, "But the catholic church tends to make it something different, saying that we need intercessory prayer to communicate with God, etc. These two statements (the second statement being the words in bold) conflict a great deal.
You may not see it as such, but intercession can be considered a very charitable act, the person cannot thank you, as presumably they do not know, and you are doing it out of the kindness of your heart and concern. From what you say it seems that you are a Christian, and so you therefore most likely believe in the power of prayer. So how can you dismiss a Catholic praying for another person; furthermore, how can you justify it as being the 'laziest Christians'?

A further point is that I would have to disagree with you on the laziest Christians front, as I frequently interact with Catholics and find them in many forms of philanthropic activity. As I mentioned before, I do not know how often you come in contact with Catholics, but I do know from what I've seen that what you say on this matter is absolutely incorrect. They help others and they reach into the community. If you can not see that then either you live within a much more apathetic or even cynical surround and amongst much more apathetic Catholics than I or you need to open your eyes.
If you do not take part in charitable events with Catholics then I suggest very strongly that you do so, at least then you can judge them better, if you insist on judging others so. Related to this, judge them as you would wish to be judged, does that sounds familiar to you at all?

No, the Pope is not G-d. No one says the Pope is G-d; some say he is G-d's representative on Earth, and I disagree with that as a concept, but I would never dare suggest that Pope is G-d. To say that Catholics believe he is a gross display of ignorance on your part and explains a great deal of both content and tone of your post.
In order to justify 'representative on Earth' Catholics say that the election process is influenced with the indirect intent of G-d through the Cardinals as holy people. Not holy as in to be praised, but holy as in spiritual, if you will.

I hope that I have made my point very clear.
Thank you.

[Ilaekae]

Can I be the only one here...in a thread that asks whether we "believe in god"...that wonders why it's become a repeat of every subtle one-part-of-christianity-(repeat in all caps for emphasis--CHRISTIANITY)-bashing-another argument that's ever occurred. How enlightening... Whatever would we do if there were actually OTHER religions/gods/creation myths that didn't know who the hell Jesus was?

Just a thought...but then...whadoIno? :bashful:

An Addition made after Rhynome's post (which snuck in before mine), definitely NOT aimed at Rhynome...

Ahem...Some of you...and you know who you are...are just dying to use the term "Papists," aren't you...?

[LaPalida]

Ken Miller is awesome in his fight against creationists... except that he is a creationist himself :P. Anyone who believes in god is a creationist in my book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution) because they believe that we were created by a higher being (I'm not talking about creationist in the sense of "The Earth was created out of the blue 10 thousand years ago). While he may fight against the silly fundagelicals and close the front door on them instead he brings creationism through the back door. His god is simply a fumbling tinkerer who instead of just making things appear out of the blue with a snap of his fingers (the extreme fundy creationist position) took 4 billion years just to make a bacteria :S. In the end it appears that Ken Miller's god used Evolution to make Man - his highest achievement. I can't understand how a person could still believe in god after studying nature (biology and physics).

[Jason Rainville]

Ken Miller is awesome in his fight against creationists... except that he is a creationist himself :P. Anyone who believes in god is a creationist in my book because they believe that we were created by a higher being (I'm not talking about creationist in the sense of "The Earth was created out of the blue 10 thousand years ago). While he may fight against the silly fundagelicals and close the front door on them instead he brings creationism through the back door. His god is simply a fumbling tinkerer who instead of just making things appear out of the blue with a snap of his fingers (the extreme fundy creationist position) took 4 billion years just to make a bacteria :S. In the end it appears that Ken Miller's god used Evolution to make Man - his highest achievement. I can't understand how a person could still believe in god after studying nature (biology and physics).

I thought that he only believed in a creator in a broad sense, or is that what you're refering to?

I really disagree that he's trying to bring god in through the back door. That's what ID is doing. By continuing to support evolution DESPITE his beliefs seems to show his dedication to the education system. Unless it says within his textbooks that the author belives in god and students should take it into account, I see no indication of him trying to actively teach his his psuedo-creationist beliefs.

[ChaoticKnight]

First I shall start with a question; how often do you run into Catholics, and especially how often do you do so in terms of religious interaction. In other words have you ever been to a Catholic Church, participated in a Catholic Mass, worked in the community with Catholics [from a Christian viewpoint]?


I have many catholic friends, went to school in a catholic school system, have a parent who grew up in the catholic church, have visited friends or family's catholic churches. But in my experience the catholic church has many people who just go to church every Sunday, pay the tithe and think they're good for the rest of the time.

Intercessory prayer, in the way I meant it, was in the context of priests telling you that you can't talk to God directly, that you need to pray either to them or saints (or Mary) to get your point across to God. Confession doesn't make sense to me either. What you do is between you and God, and why do we need to report this to a priest instead of talking to God about it?

Plus, it always seemed to em that they put more emphasis on Mary than Jesus. I never understood that. The mother of the Son of God is more important than God in flesh? Think about it: 10 Hail Mary's for every1 Our Father...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying catholics are bad Christians or bad people, some of the arguments the catholic church comes up with against attacks against the faith are phenomenal, and some of the best friends of my family are catholics. But not everyone is like that.

I'm sorry your disgusted by my view of the catholic church, but I have had some very bad experiences with them, as well as my family also. But as you said, its my opinion.

[ChaoticKnight]

I can't understand how a person could still believe in god after studying nature (biology and physics).

I've been told that the more you study science, the harder it is not to believe in intelligent design. Evolution and such don't necessarily disprove God, people just like to think they can use them in an argument against it.
*EDIT: "Let me walk you through from the perspective of science what we know about the genome, and bring that into a discussion about what that tells us about the Creator." Quote from http://www.evaneco.com/?p=55
This has been a common discussion between me and my peers both at school and at home. As I said, I am no debater and certainly not good at apologetics in any way, so I cannot continue to argue the point. You can look this stuff up on Google. Also, the book "Tornado in a Junkyard" is an excellent read if your looking for information on evolution and the Christian faith.

I'm going to leave this thread alone now, I'm stressed out enough as it is I don't really want to keep defending my opinions and beliefs, therefore, no more posts for me here.

Seriously, research it a bit!
Later!

[Elwell]

I've been told
By who?

[Rhynome]

I can't understand how a person could still believe in god after studying nature (biology and physics).

I can't understand how anyone who believes in the Abrahamic god uses that as justification to excuse the possibility of evolution. That god (Abraham's) is eternal.
G-d being eternal may be seen as the eternal nature of the universe. Evolution can be seen as part of this eternal nature of this god. Abe's god is meant to be both the creator and the maintainer; it seems people often miss out the second bit.

I find it very hard to see how a belief in G-d can be a reason for not believing in evolution. The creation story is just a story, as with many things in the Bible, and just about everyone accepts this.
I'll give the first indication of how it's just a story (aside from the whole Cain and Abel logistics): In Judaism (yes, the Bible is Jewish, shock!) a day is a sunset to a sunset. In the bible, Genesis 1:16, it says that G-d made the Greater Light (sun) and Lesser Light (moon)... this was long after 'the first day'. So how could it have been a day without an initial sunset to mark it as such? That is the initial evidence, right from the start, that it should not be taken literally.

Furthermore, in the English it is sometimes said 'On the first day', 'On the second day', etc. In the Hebrew it ends each point or paragraph with "First Day", "Second Day", etc. Bearing in mind that the ancient Semites were very much rooted in their immediate existence they used real things to explain abstract concepts a lot of the time. A "day" should best be considered a "stage" or "phase"; especially as the way it's used in the grammar, as though to mark out each point.
Much Like: "the Pope is NOT God. Period. The end." Well, it's not really the end, is it? The Universe is still existing... at least, it seems to be. Also note how he writes 'Period', as though saying the punctuation, that's what I mean by 'First Day' is used as punctuation.

[Seedling]

But in my experience the catholic church has many people who just go to church every Sunday, pay the tithe and think they're good for the rest of the time.

Not just every religion, but every single group of humans has its devout members and its lazy members. You just happen to have only met lazy members of one particular group.

[LaPalida]

Atheist, Intelligent Design is bollocks, militant atheists deserve cockpunches, and the sky is blue. That covers it for me I think.

Who's a militant atheist according to you?

[LaPalida]

I thought that he only believed in a creator in a broad sense, or is that what you're refering to?

I really disagree that he's trying to bring god in through the back door. That's what ID is doing. By continuing to support evolution DESPITE his beliefs seems to show his dedication to the education system. Unless it says within his textbooks that the author belives in god and students should take it into account, I see no indication of him trying to actively teach his his psuedo-creationist beliefs.

I'm not saying that he wants to teach this position. It's his personal belief that I'm talking about. I know that he understands and fully accepts the church state separation. I'm talking about his personal position about the existence of a god. Believing in a creator in a broad sense or narrow sense makes you a creationist - a theistic evolutionist :).

[LaPalida]

I can't understand how anyone who believes in the Abrahamic god uses that as justification to excuse the possibility of evolution. That god (Abraham's) is eternal.
G-d being eternal may be seen as the eternal nature of the universe. Evolution can be seen as part of this eternal nature of this god. Abe's god is meant to be both the creator and the maintainer; it seems people often miss out the second bit.

Yeah but here you're just redefining terms. If god is universe.... why invent a new word? I believe in universe... it's kind of hard to deny it don't you think?

Abraham's god has a very specific definition one which you are redefining to fit within your scientifically informed mind. You can't let go of this belief so you're trying shoe horn it into your modern world view.

I find it very hard to see how a belief in G-d can be a reason for not believing in evolution. The creation story is just a story, as with many things in the Bible, and just about everyone accepts this.
I'll give the first indication of how it's just a story (aside from the whole Cain and Abel logistics): In Judaism (yes, the Bible is Jewish, shock!) a day is a sunset to a sunset. In the bible, Genesis 1:16, it says that G-d made the Greater Light (sun) and Lesser Light (moon)... this was long after 'the first day'. So how could it have been a day without an initial sunset to mark it as such? That is the initial evidence, right from the start, that it should not be taken literally.More retrofitting. Without the scientific discoveries since this book was written you would not be able to say this. You would be a literalist.

Why do you keep saying G-d instead of God? Are you afraid he's going to strike you dead?

[LaPalida]

I've been told that the more you study science, the harder it is not to believe in intelligent design. Evolution and such don't necessarily disprove God, people just like to think they can use them in an argument against it.
*EDIT: "Let me walk you through from the perspective of science what we know about the genome, and bring that into a discussion about what that tells us about the Creator." Quote from http://www.evaneco.com/?p=55
This has been a common discussion between me and my peers both at school and at home. As I said, I am no debater and certainly not good at apologetics in any way, so I cannot continue to argue the point. You can look this stuff up on Google. Also, the book "Tornado in a Junkyard" is an excellent read if your looking for information on evolution and the Christian faith.

I'm going to leave this thread alone now, I'm stressed out enough as it is I don't really want to keep defending my opinions and beliefs, therefore, no more posts for me here.

Seriously, research it a bit!
Later!

Thanks but no thanks. I have done enough research on this topic to come to the conclusion that ID is a bunch of religious BS. "Tornado in a Junk Yard" is a straw man argument (and that's simply judging it from the title) from non-biologists.

[pyrohex]

I think you guys forget, evolution doesn't equate with Christianity. Easy to lose perspective, huh?

[Jason Rainville]

I'm not saying that he wants to teach this position. It's his personal belief that I'm talking about. I know that he understands and fully accepts the church state separation. I'm talking about his personal position about the existence of a god. Believing in a creator in a broad sense or narrow sense makes you a creationist - a theistic evolutionist :).

Well, he's only human. I held on to my belief for a while because I wanted hope. I needed that hope. Maybe he's doing the same thing? Maybe he sees so-called evidence for ID, is astonished about the intricacies of life and is not so quick to deny a creator, but knows that it can't be taught without evidence.

Either way, as long as he keeps doing what he's doing I don't care what he thinks :)

[pyrohex]

I've been told that the more you study science, the harder it is not to believe in intelligent design. Evolution and such don't necessarily disprove God, people just like to think they can use them in an argument against it.


That's the problem, isn't it? People will always read the same bits of information and come to wildly different conclusions. At the end of the current paths of science, a scholar can come to two endings: that wherever science takes us, it cannot fully explain the natural world - and so, a greater being must exist; OR, science and its progress will eventually be able to answer every question about the natural world.

[Seedling]

We SHOULD be unified in that its the same God, and we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Why should having the same god be unifying?

[m@.]

that wherever science takes us, it cannot fully explain the natural world - and so, a greater being must exist

eh? and how would we get to that conclusion?

[corky13]

Can I be the only one here...in a thread that asks whether we "believe in god"...that wonders why it's become a repeat of every subtle one-part-of-christianity-(repeat in all caps for emphasis--CHRISTIANITY)-bashing-another argument that's ever occurred. How enlightening... Whatever would we do if there were actually OTHER religions/gods/creation myths that didn't know who the hell Jesus was?



quoted for emphasis...someone had to say it ;)

[Costau D]

Can I be the only one here...in a thread that asks whether we "believe in god"...that wonders why it's become a repeat of every subtle one-part-of-christianity-(repeat in all caps for emphasis--CHRISTIANITY)-bashing-another argument that's ever occurred. How enlightening... Whatever would we do if there were actually OTHER religions/gods/creation myths that didn't know who the hell Jesus was?

Just a thought...but then...whadoIno? :bashful:

An Addition made after Rhynome's post (which snuck in before mine), definitely NOT aimed at Rhynome...

Ahem...Some of you...and you know who you are...are just dying to use the term "Papists," aren't you...?


Double quoted for emphasis...

[pyrohex]

eh? and how would we get to that conclusion?

I don't know the reasoning of biologists and other scholars in the upper echelons of hard science, but I suppose it would consist of doubting foundational evidence certain critical theories, much like we do, except on a higher plane of logic. It's a very vague and unhelpful response, I know, but what it comes down to is our internal constitution regarding belief or unbelief, and what priority we give to weighing evidence. The fact remains that even in highly regarded scientific institutions (and I'm not talking about that Creation Museum in Alabama or something :P ) there are Christians, and among those, people who discount evolution for some reason or another.

[Cthogua]

Can I be the only one here...in a thread that asks whether we "believe in god"...that wonders why it's become a repeat of every subtle one-part-of-christianity-(repeat in all caps for emphasis--CHRISTIANITY)-bashing-another argument that's ever occurred. How enlightening... Whatever would we do if there were actually OTHER religions/gods/creation myths that didn't know who the hell Jesus was?

Just a thought...but then...whadoIno? :bashful:


Well the reality for me is that I've grown up around Christianity, been to enough sermons, heard enough of the arguements where I feel like I have a reasonably informed opinion on the matter. Also Christianity is a proselytizing religion that says it's part of your duty to god to go out and convert others (witness, spread the word, whatever you want to call it) So it makes itself a bit of a pain in everyone thats not christian's ass. Anyway, my point is that the majority of the people on this site from the Americas and Europe probably have a Christian background, and thusly, that becomes the backbone of the discussion. PLEASE don't think I'm trying to say "everyone is..." I know there are other people, such as yourself with non-christian beliefs, but its the majority that ends up framing the arguement. If this website's main group of users was based in India, it might be that the "do you believe" thread would turn into an arguement about which sect of Hinduism is the holiest. Although it may just be the "I'm right and you're wrong and will be punished for it" aspect of Christianity that makes it especially arguement prone.

[Costau D]

Why do we have to worship and believe in something higher than us? Why can't believing in ourselves be good enough? It doesn't have to be black and white...

And, since I was cathoilic when growing up and went to catholic school for 10 years, no where did they tell me I had to save anybody. My family always encouraged living through example, ofcourse until I met my science teacher who opened a few doors for me. Now I'm agnositc. But you dont need to worship or pray to something higher than you that might be listening or not, it's my life and I have freedom so I will do something with it. Absence of god or the absence of a concious god towards his creations does not mean loss of morality. Morality is common sense. Stories are used to emphasize that, especialy in the younger generation. You use stories to instill an understanding of this world. If you do something bad in most cases it will just turn in on you, either that be through punishment from others you hurt or a huge guilt trip and terrible life. Some people are just sick in the head, and may not feel any emotion or care.

It's hard to do the right thing in life. People just need to stop being afraid of death... Just admit to yourself, "I have no clue what lies beyond life, which gives me no reason to worry about it whther it be judgement or nothingness." The only way to have purpose in life, is to give it to yourself.

[pyrohex]

It doesn't have to be black and white...

Which is exactly why this debate runs around in circles and pops up every couple months, and people STILL jump into the argument...like myself.

[Costau D]

"No Fate But What We Make."

[Rhynome]

If this website's main group of users was based in India, it might be that the "do you believe" thread would turn into an arguement about which sect of Hinduism is the holiest.

Nepalese! Everyone knows that the Nepalese Hindus (entirely geographical) are more observant than the Indian Hindus!

Actually, it'd be interesting to hold a survey across the World and across the Religions to find out how many people believed in the gods of their religions or in the creation myths of their religions or anything else that comes to mind.

It'd be hell to orchestrate, though.

[GHill]

This is what I believe: I live on a pale blue dot. :confident

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[Costau D]

This is what I believe: I live on a pale blue dot. :confident




Exactly. It always confuses me why people find this humbling observation of ourselves so depressing. Be glad you even have an oppurtunity to be concious and self aware enough to realise the potentials of the universe and the very small role you play in it. Be happy and content, and make what you have the best don't worry about your outcome.

[Jason Snair]

Ghill: Thanks for that. I've seen it before, long time ago.
2bDeadbeat: Well said!

[wiggum]

Five days ago I started this thread in an attempt to acquire an idea of this community's outlook on religion (I also hoped that some more people would check out the Detroit Angel Project, but that seems to have backfired on me).
In five days I have gotten nearly a hundred replies. This shows just how important religion can be. Our belief systems are deeply ingrained in our societies, so much so that people, even now in this time of 'enlightenment,' will spill rivers of blood arguing over obtuse doctrinal niceties.
In the end, regardless of what you do or don't believe religion should be about one thing, the only thing...The way we treat each other. I look back through our histories and I am absolutely disgusted by the ways faith has been perverted over the centuries. Despite my personal belief in a creator I would gladly burn every religious text ever created before I harmed another person in the name of God.
I firmly believe that there is a creator, if he simply made up the physical rules that govern the universe and left us to our own devices after that, or if interacts with us on a daily basis neither I nor anyone else could ever truly say.
A wise man once said "For a believer no proof is necessary, for a skeptic no proof can be given." I know that now, and I am done with this debate.
I'm going to pull out my sketchbook now, and get back to work. :angel: :yayca: :angel:

[Seedling]

*gives Wendigo a noogie*

I wish more religious folks were like you. :-)

[NoSeRider]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security —


http://www.usconstitution.net/declar.html

Live no longer to the expectation of these deceived and deceiving people with whom we converse. Say to them, O father, O mother, O wife, O brother, O friend, I have lived with you after appearances hitherto. Henceforward I am the truth's. Be it known unto you that henceforward I obey no law less than the eternal law. I will have no covenants but proximities. I shall endeavour to nourish my parents, to support my family, to be the chaste husband of one wife, — but these relations I must fill after a new and unprecedented way. I appeal from your customs. I must be myself. I cannot break myself any longer for you, or you. If you can love me for what I am, we shall be the happier. If you cannot, I will still seek to deserve that you should. I will not hide my tastes or aversions. I will so trust that what is deep is holy, that I will do strongly before the sun and moon whatever inly rejoices me, and the heart appoints. If you are noble, I will love you; if you are not, I will not hurt you and myself by hypocritical attentions. If you are true, but not in the same truth with me, cleave to your companions; I will seek my own. I do this not selfishly, but humbly and truly. It is alike your interest, and mine, and all men's, however long we have dwelt in lies, to live in truth. Does this sound harsh to-day? You will soon love what is dictated by your nature as well as mine, and, if we follow the truth, it will bring us out safe at last. — But so you may give these friends pain. Yes, but I cannot sell my liberty and my power, to save their sensibility. Besides, all persons have their moments of reason, when they look out into the region of absolute truth; then will they justify me, and do the same thing.


http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm

[Seedling]

The fact remains that even in highly regarded scientific institutions (and I'm not talking about that Creation Museum in Alabama or something :P ) there are Christians, and among those, people who discount evolution for some reason or another.

Not all highly regarded scientific institutions involve biology. Among fields that touch on biology you would hard-pressed to find anyone who discounts evolution.

[HunterKiller_]

I'm Christian, and I don't care if somebody isn't, that's their choice.
I'll happily discuss it with those who want to listen, but I don't preach, that's the preachers job.

People who have no belief, and go to such lengths to be anti-religious is ridiculous. Who are they to tell people that they can't believe in something?

[Katfayheirti]

I believe in a thing called love...

No, really, I'm tired of religious debates, but I will answer questions about my beliefs if asked. I'm definately Christian, but most of my friends are athiests 'cause I totally do not jive with the kids at my church. They think I'm possessed or something 'cause I don't paint flowers and palm trees and I read 'evil' books like the Quran and The Prince.