game character polygons limit?

[Ali_Annihilator]

so I recently just finished learning how to model a whole human body on 3DSM

but I know games have a restriction on polygons on characters for the game not to lag as much..

how much do u think a character should be limited too? I'm talking about to the systems that are out now like 360 and ps3 or whatever.

games like elder scrolls 4: oblivion had soo much nice detail too it, tho I'm sure they had some kind of limit to each character they had there.

and I'm sure they used stuff like normal mapping.. but yah

any ideas? thanks! :D

[Seedling]

It depends on the game engine, the system the game will be played on, how many characters are expected to be on screen at any one time, whether the animations are prerendered or not, and the importance of that particular character.

For practice purposes, I would suggest staying in the 1000 to 2000 polygon range.

There's a link in my sig to info on the games industry for you. . .

[-sideshowbob-]

from what i read crysis goes for 20k polys per vehicle / player
trees and foilage is about 200 to 2000 polygons

xbox260 and ps3 will be able to handle a shitload.. if u see scenes of unreal 3 or crysis engine.. they have scenes with 2000000 polygons
unreal 3 ingame models should be 1 to 30k for unique character models
halflife 2 is around 3500 polygons per character

most of the detail u see in real time characters or worlds is based on normal maps
see :
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=29504
or http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=033615

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_map

[Lohan]

20k polygpons seems kind of pointless to me if you can get basically the same effect using low poly + normal maps and allowing more people to play the game.

[Seedling]

from what i read crysis goes for 20k polys per vehicle / player
trees and foilage is about 200 to 2000 polygons

xbox260 and ps3 will be able to handle a shitload.. if u see scenes of unreal 3 or crysis engine.. they have scenes with 2000000 polygons
unreal 3 ingame models should be 1 to 30k for unique character models
halflife 2 is around 3500 polygons per character

most of the detail u see in real time characters or worlds is based on normal maps
see :
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=29504
or http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=033615

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_map

Heehe. That’s mindblowing.

Don’t forget though, that those are potential maximums. They are the shiny numbers that coders use to impress their peers. In reality, across all platforms, only a few games may be able to venture safely into those numbers. Someone entering the industry won’t have much say in whether they’ll be working on the Next Big Uberhighbudget Thing, or a game like Katamari Damacy, in which you can sit there and count the number of verts on any individual character. For that reason, I advise starting in the low range, where you can learn to make each polygon pull its weight.

A good high-poly model goes through a state in which it is a low-poly model anyhow, so a well-built low-poly model can be a good stepping-stone to a solid medium- or high-poly model. The reverse is not true, though: a poorly-crafted high-poly model can’t easily be reduced to a solid low-poly model. And since some game engines rely on “degraded” (low-poly) versions of models in the distance to keep the poly-count down, and those degraded versions are made from the high-poly version, you’ll be in for a realm of hurt if you try to get a good degrade model out of a poorly-crafted high-poly model. So, in other words, it’s really important to know how to work low-poly in the games industry, even though the technology is making more things possible every day.

[Ali_Annihilator]

Heehe. That’s mindblowing.

Don’t forget though, that those are potential maximums. They are the shiny numbers that coders use to impress their peers. In reality, across all platforms, only a few games may be able to venture safely into those numbers. Someone entering the industry won’t have much say in whether they’ll be working on the Next Big Uberhighbudget Thing, or a game like Katamari Damacy, in which you can sit there and count the number of verts on any individual character. For that reason, I advise starting in the low range, where you can learn to make each polygon pull its weight.

A good high-poly model goes through a state in which it is a low-poly model anyhow, so a well-built low-poly model can be a good stepping-stone to a solid medium- or high-poly model. The reverse is not true, though: a poorly-crafted high-poly model can’t easily be reduced to a solid low-poly model. And since some game engines rely on “degraded” (low-poly) versions of models in the distance to keep the poly-count down, and those degraded versions are made from the high-poly version, you’ll be in for a realm of hurt if you try to get a good degrade model out of a poorly-crafted high-poly model. So, in other words, it’s really important to know how to work low-poly in the games industry, even though the technology is making more things possible every day.

thats amazing thats for the tips yall :D

I had no idea that games actually used that much polygon for stuff like that, quite amazing

and for the last one awesome tip too, ill defenetly work with that =]

[Seedling]

I had no idea that games actually used that much polygon for stuff like that, quite amazing

In our games (Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online) nothing even approaches those high polycounts. Our standard "popcorn" monsters are in to 2000 range, and the biggest trees might be as much as 500. A rock or shrub might be 100. Only boss monsters and important point-of-interest structures get into the 5000 or more range.

You're welcome. ;-)

[Lohan]

seedling you're the best. thanks for the info.

[Seedling]

Aww, quit it, I'm just a blatherer and now I'm blushing. I would like to hear this sort of stats from artists at other game companies, myself. Anyone?

[hito]

Alot of engines support multiple levels of detail, and change models and textures on the fly.

Dawn of War engine swaps between 3 models in game depending on how far the camera is from the model and your detail setting. Full detail models range from 2000 to 5500

Torque engine supports as many levels as you care to create, and swaps them based on how large the model is on screen measured in pixels. Typically characters are around 2000 full detail, but there are no documentations on the upper limit, or much at all unfortunately.

3000 to 4500 is whats in most new games out now. Newer games will be double that. Next year I can't even guess, at least 10k if not more.

I don't know how artists are going to keep up considering how much longer it is to do everything at higher polycounts and production cycles are getting shorter and shorter. EA's typically 1 year, I think the average is around 3. Longer if its a place that makes games to sell the engine, like ID and Epic. Few exceptions like Spore and Duke Nuke'm Forever.

MMOs are the odd ball out I imagine. Whats the cycle like at Turbine?

[Seedling]

MMOs are the odd ball out I imagine. Whats the cycle like at Turbine?

Yeah. . . trying to get a MMO out the door in a hurry is a bad idea. LOTRO took five years of development. I want to say DDO took two, but I don't remember exactly when development started. Maybe it was three.

MMOs also can't push the budget the way single-player game can, because we have to assume parts of the game will be mobbed by extreme numbers of players at times. And we have to account for information being squeezed through the phone-lines.

It's too bad that pre-rendered games like Riven aren't in vogue, because the art can be pushed so much further in that type of game!

[Ali_Annihilator]

oh something else I would like to share with yall.

well I was talkin to one of my teachers at my school, and he told me he had a friend thats in an MMO company. he said that the characters they come out with start out with 2000 polys, but throughout the game as they progress with better armor they end up with around 4000 polys..

soo mabey that can be something to think about...

he also told me that if I'm to use lots of polygons.. I should make it so as if each one has a purpose

[Seedling]

That's a good point, Ali. Avatars in MMOs are about as complex as a character can get for a game, to my knowledge. This is due to their paper-doll nature. We’ve done player characters two ways here: one is in pieces. Each head/arm/leg/etc. is a separate model. A change of clothes means a different segment of body is plugged on. The other method is a simple body wearing the equivalent of a leotard, on top of which chunks of armor can be plugged on.

Always at the beginning of a project there are guidelines established as to the maximum number of textures and polys on an avatar. But a year later, three years later, the team has changed, the functionality of the game is better known, and the decision might be made to throw in a suit of armor that totally exceeds the former budget. Either that or everyone is bemoaning the excessive polygon counts that were permitted at the start. ;-)

Designing and building avatars is a gigantic undertaking for MMOs. Not only do they have the most variable and potentially heavy impact on the game’s frame-rate, but they have the most rigorous approval hurdles to get past, all of the pieces have to work in combination (both visually and technically), and they have to provide a sense of self to the player. Whereas, on the other hand, a generic tree needs little approval, isn’t a technical marvel, and (if done correctly) doesn’t get much attention from players. (However, as an environment monkey I have to point out that designing a set of trees to effectively fill space without harming the frame-rate is a technical and artistic challenge all of its own, and isn’t a task that could be handed off to an intern.)

At any rate, making sure each polygon has a purpose is the best possible way to use this medium for games. :-)