Using Photographs

[BeckyHew]

Hi there,
I work in the computer games industry, training to become a concept artist (hopefully). A lot of my colleagues use photos in their concepts, even to the point of painting over a photo (just changing the odd bits here and there). As I am trying to become a better artist, I am reluctant to do this as I want to be able to create something totally from scratch.

Don't get me wrong, I use texture photos sometimes to add a bit of, well, texture to things like concrete, but how far is too far? Should I start doing it more just to achieve the same standard and therefore get a concept art job?

The main thing I would like to know is how much photos are used by other games industry concept artists. Would they, for example, take a photo of someone then alter their hair and clothes to make a character concept? Or is it mainly all painted from scratch?

Thanks

[Seedling]

Eh, what? If I reviewed a portfolio for someone applying for a concept art job here (we're a game company), and I saw any reliance on painting over photos, I would voice some serious objection to hiring that artist.

[Ellingsworth]

Not to sound mean but really, this same exact topic was just being discussed in a few threads below.

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101085

Edit: Oh, and listen to Seedling she knows her stuff.

[otis]

Why Seedling?
I know plenty of well known concept / mattepainting artists who use photos in their work. Especially in Hollywood.

I say; what ever gets the job done. (A good job too)

[BeckyHew]

Not to sound mean but really, this same exact topic was just being discussed in a few threads below.



I am sorry, I didn't see that thread - the title must have meant that I missed it.

Sorry for wasting your time :(

[Seedling]

Why Seedling?
I know plenty of well known concept / mattepainting artists who use photos in their work. Especially in Hollywood.

I say; what ever gets the job done. (A good job too)

I only have experience with the games industry, but around here, an assignment is likely to be “we need three concepts for a giant space garbage disposal by noon tomorrow.” The artist doesn’t have the time to go take photos; using someone else’s photos has a certain probability of being unethical, and reliance on photos would limit what the artist can dream up for us. We need an artist who can invent this thing three separate ways on the spot out of whole cloth. And there are plenty of artists who are capable of doing exactly this, so we don’t need to settle for anyone who relies on photos.

However, if we were working on a game that was, say, set in the ruins of Washington DC, then it would make sense for the concept artist to start with photos. But if that game also included wacky space-ships, we would still need the concept artist to be able to generate images without photos. Student artists in particular who has resort too often on doing what it takes to “get the job done” will likely not learn the necessary drawing-from-imagination skills to fill this role.

[Ellingsworth]

I am sorry, I didn't see that thread - the title must have meant that I missed it.

Sorry for wasting your time :(

No harm done Becky. I'm also new here, but everyone makes little mistake once in a while. Welcome to Concept Art. :)

[chazanoble]

I only have experience with the games industry, but around here, an assignment is likely to be “we need three concepts for a giant space garbage disposal by noon tomorrow.” The artist doesn’t have the time to go take photos; using someone else’s photos has a certain probability of being unethical, and reliance on photos would limit what the artist can dream up for us. We need an artist who can invent this thing three separate ways on the spot out of whole cloth. And there are plenty of artists who are capable of doing exactly this, so we don’t need to settle for anyone who relies on photos.

However, if we were working on a game that was, say, set in the ruins of Washington DC, then it would make sense for the concept artist to start with photos. But if that game also included wacky space-ships, we would still need the concept artist to be able to generate images without photos. Student artists in particular who has resort too often on doing what it takes to “get the job done” will likely not learn the necessary drawing-from-imagination skills to fill this role.

A lot of your concerns are under the assumption paint-over artist who are heavily relying on photos work in a certain way and their style is limited to realism. What if the person can make "wacky space-ships" by taking pictures of simple objects placed together and painting over them altering details to make it consistently better than what the other concept artist who don't do paint over? (using a mass appealing standard since you are in a business where being commercially successful is important) Basically they are creative enough to do any of the assignments you give them.

Personally, I think the end result is what really matters. If someone can show me that they can consistently complete projects on time doing quality work, I don't care what method they use as long as it's not illegal. I let their work speak for themselves and not assume because they are using a certain medium, they won't be proficient/imaginative as people who use the traditional mediums.

[DavePalumbo]

If someone can show me that they can consistently complete projects on time doing quality work, I don't care what method they use as long as it's not illegal.

that sentence is beautiful

[dbclemons]

If they take the photos themselves or change found photos significantly, then fine, but if they misappropriate images they grab off the net, they should know better. In a similar vein, I once saw a cover of a prototype document for a FPS game that was a scan of a Tim Bradstreet Punisher comic. Other interior spots were cropped photos grabbed off the net, not even doctored, just pasted in. I complained about it, but got yelled at. I've seen similar stunts at other studios, as well as places who insist everything be clean and clear, as they should. Not doing so means the studio doesn't have the talent or resources they should, or aren't making use of what they have, or they're too cheap.

[Flipnastywebby]

Seedling that is probably the best information that can be past on to young artists and students. when i went to school at Syracuse the main theme of the crits were use reference, get your reference, you need reference. They totally skipped over imagine something, create something, then get reference! I totally agree though with the need for someone who already can make art straight from their head, but this also takes practice and young artists should be encouraged to draw everything they see to build their visual library. This can also mean keeping a camera on you, so you can build you visual library with out having the time to draw, opening the door for using your own photos when you need them, for reference or for an add on to a painting. this can also make their library of textures further avalible, which i dont know about everyone else, but when i need a texture i would rather use a photo or scanned image as one, quicker and more familiar looking.


now, would that constitute as using photos in paintings?
would that be un-ethical, to use photos as textures rather than the image as it stood?


any way i feel like i might have rambled. If you can create art by using photos, and it looks good, great! you can do something others cant and you can paid to do it. if you prefer to be a painter instead of being a photo collager...awesome! its not cheating its another way to visually communicate the message you want to send.



slainte!

[Seedling]

What if the person can make "wacky space-ships" by taking pictures of simple objects placed together and painting over them altering details to make it consistently better than what the other concept artist who don't do paint over? . . . Personally, I think the end result is what really matters. If someone can show me that they can consistently complete projects on time doing quality work, I don't care what method they use as long as it's not illegal . . .

I get what you are saying. But let me make a more standard example: the human figure. The concept artist needs to produce a series of sketches of elf armor due Wednesday, two refined sketches of the same armor (with evidence that the armor will bend correctly once rigged) for Thursday, and some sketches of some of the game characters in action as preliminary work for a magazine article on Friday. There is no budget for hiring a model, so the concept artist has to persuade busy people from the team to pose for him. Only it’s raining, and the game company doesn’t have anywhere indoors that is well-lit enough or large enough to get particularly good photos; and not only does the concept artist not have proper light equipment for indoor photography, but the game company won’t even pay for a camera, so he is stuck using his own. Ultimately, hours are wasted producing poor-quality photographs with compromised content, when the artist would actually have had more freedom in the range of content in his finished product had he sat down at a sketchbook and drawn thumbnails. And ultimately, someone making aesthetic decisions for the game is going to request that the figures have big bulging muscles, or be the ultimate in feminine beauty; and the concept artist is going to be in a spot of trouble because most people who make computer games don’t look like that.

I do agree with you that the end result is what matters. But I am concerned with students getting the wrong message when they hear that. The end result, whatever it is, needs to be achieved on time and under budget. The most economical way to reach the end result of being a competent and fast concept artist is by putting in the hard work up front of learning how to draw from imagination. If used too early or often in an artist’s development, shortcuts take longer and cost more.

[wsp85]

Has anyone seen "A Scanner Darkly"? the movie about substance-d. sorry if this is an unnecessary post but that movie turned out really well. that was made by painting over top of the film, you can get some really nice effects going, although i agree with seedling about not stopping to take photos. Everything is so much better if it's made with imagination, (other then textures like you said, concrete, bricks, maybe water.)

[chazanoble]

I get what you are saying. But let me make a more standard example: the human figure. The concept artist needs to produce a series of sketches of elf armor due Wednesday, two refined sketches of the same armor (with evidence that the armor will bend correctly once rigged) for Thursday, and some sketches of some of the game characters in action as preliminary work for a magazine article on Friday. There is no budget for hiring a model, so the concept artist has to persuade busy people from the team to pose for him. Only it’s raining, and the game company doesn’t have anywhere indoors that is well-lit enough or large enough to get particularly good photos; and not only does the concept artist not have proper light equipment for indoor photography, but the game company won’t even pay for a camera, so he is stuck using his own. Ultimately, hours are wasted producing poor-quality photographs with compromised content, when the artist would actually have had more freedom in the range of content in his finished product had he sat down at a sketchbook and drawn thumbnails. And ultimately, someone making aesthetic decisions for the game is going to request that the figures have big bulging muscles, or be the ultimate in feminine beauty; and the concept artist is going to be in a spot of trouble because most people who make computer games don’t look like that.

I feel we have different expectation of what a paint over artist can do. I am under the assumption that they possess basic skills you normally see from paintover artist like understanding anatomy, asthetics and can make a fat person skinnier, making an ugly person beautiful, etc. I assume the only difference is one rely on photos of arrange objects to start his/her picture and the other draw from scratch but are equally skill in terms of understanding proportionality, color theory, imagination, creativity, etc. (Back of my mind, I have this idea that most people think paintover artist's work will look something like a Linda Berkvist's.)

He/she doesn't exactly have to portray the objects in the picture as they are in the real world but can extract vitals component/textures and alter them to make objects of their liking. Just like a person who use pen/pencils to draws his ideas out, paint over artist can take can alter snapshots of arranged real-world objects to portray his idea.

Given that the paint over artist has these normal qualities, even if the company does not have a facility suited for them, I don't see why they cannot complete your scenario. If they really are experience, they should already have pictures of various human poses and objects they have taken saved on their computer to start with.

I do agree with you that the end result is what matters. But I am concerned with students getting the wrong message when they hear that. The end result, whatever it is, needs to be achieved on time and under budget.

For the most part, we are on the same page. It's just we have different expectation of what a paintover artist can do.


The most economical way to reach the end result of being a competent and fast concept artist is by putting in the hard work up front of learning how to draw from imagination. If used too early or often in an artist’s development, shortcuts take longer and cost more.

The most economical way to reach the end result of being a competent and fast concept artist is constantly feeding your imagination and putting in the hard work mastering your medium. You can argue that a person's imagination is limited to what they have experience and so it doesn't mean a paintover artist will be less imaginative. Who are we to assume what is going on in the mind of the paintover artist and say they aren't developing their artistical skill or imagination when they are doing paintovers?