Art students league

[winjer]

Im gonna enroll at the art students league for september and just wanted to know if anyone can recommend any teachers in particular. Im planning to take a painting and drawing from life class and a class for anatomy. I would appreciate any advice.

[Elwell]

Jack Faragasso. (http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/rr00400.htm)

[winjer]

yeah i see why Faragassos is never full. Its at an ungodly hour at night. Id get home at like midnight if I took his class. For now I just signed up for 2 anatomy classes and I guess after this semester of college ill schedule it so I can take Faragassos evening class.

Thanks for the replies though.

[Bombesei]

Hey Winjer. I missed this post, but if it's too late maybe you can use this info for later months. The Art Renewal Center has a section on atelier's, and in it there are a bunch of teachers at the Art Students League listed. You can go through their pages to see who's work you like and who you'd like to study with, maybe you even signed up for some of their classes already. I think the Art Students League listings start here and continue on to the next pages. If they don't, just keep looking, it's in this atelier section somewhere.

http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/atelier_list.asp?page=6&sort=atelier_order&order=ascending

And once the classes start, post an update on how they're going and how you like the ones you signed up for.


-Nick

[winjer]

ok so classes started on monday and im getting into the groove of 6 hours of drawing every day. They really need better chairs in there. If i can find some webspace ill put up my work in a diff thread.

[Anto]

Hey Winjer,
congrats on your enrollment to the ASL
i just recently signed up for an anatomy for artists class with Anthony Polumbo (my first class was this past saturday)
this was a september saturday course, so theres only one left - this coming saturday

it was a great first class for me seeing as ive never really done anything like this before - the class was fairly large - around 20 people , so Anthony only came around to me about twice - but he seemed very knowledgable and talented

i love the ASL though - u get a great feeling when u walk in - so artistic, so much talent around you

best of luck - see you around!

[winjer]

i dunno if the crowd there is different on saturdays but when i go its mostly old folks. i sorta feel outta place.

[Anto]

the crowd is slightly younger on saturdays, but yea lots of older people at the ASL

the older crowd is so experienced and full of knowledge though - can learn a lot from them

[skatay]

As someone who WANTED to go to the Watts Atelier, and was spurred on by this incentive to sign up (this week!) for Faragasso's class, I am super-happy and scared that I did. What's funny is that I find this thread, and the recommendations for Faragasso, though I knew about him for a while. Get your hands on a copy of his Student Guide to Painting, out of print-- but a fantastic book on the Reilly method.

Right now, I am an absolutely HORRIBLE painter, but I know I need to focus, focus, focus-- and knowing you're in the right place is a good thing.

BTW- I am an old cuss, 32 years!

[winjer]

if you stick with faragassos class for a few months ill see you in there. Gonna sign up for it after this semester.

[winjer]

I think it opens today but I have taken a peek in there while the construction people went in and out. Cant wait to take a better look.

[winjer]

Faragassos last crane was cool.

[Anto]

hey where is that show? is it straight ahead when you walk in?
ill probably be there saturday - ill have to check it out

[winjer]

its on the second floor. Just open the door and youll see it.

[Anto]

cool, how was your first class winjer?
i have a busy october and would miss too many weekends to sign up again, but im def doing november!

[winjer]

I ended up not going for the saturday class. I need sleep.

[bRyaN]

I plan to register for these evening classes..

Does he also teach drawing or just painting?
is anatomy covered at all?

[skatay]

drawing is the first half of the class on monday and wednesdays (which are the days he's in) the Reilly technique of drawing is very non-detailled, emphasizing big forms and big realtionships.

[tinyhands]

I'm not a huge fan of Faragasso, only cause his drawings a rather weak. Of all the Reilly students he just took the best notes. If you buy his figure drawing book, thats basically what it is. The biggest problem in the end with the Reilly technique is that, once people learn all the different abstractions and such, they don't let go of them. The abstaction that the Reilly method consists of stiffens drawings alot, and its a terrible way to try and get a likeness. Don't get me wrong, the information should be good, but once you get it down and have an intuitive understanding of it, you should let go it as soon as possible.

[bRyaN]

Well my question would then be, who is the best teacher at the Art Students league?

I'm mainly trying to become a narrative artist(comic books etc.), i wanna strengthen my knowledge on anatomy...

I also wanna get better at painting..somethhing i'm O K in...

But my main goal above all things is to become a comic artist..

[winjer]

If you wanna do comics and learn anatomy I think you should try to get into Costa Vavagiakis' class. Its only 2 hours but hes pretty dedicated to teaching. Hes been coming in an extra day per week so far. He wont exactly teach you anatomy, but he will tell you how to think about what youre seeing. You could just read Bridgman to figure out the forms. Ill also give the Burban anatomy class a thumbs down. I think he went crazy. We just have lectures about important modern artists and crap like that. All Ive learned in a month there is that the ribcage is equal to the head+neck which is equal to the pelvis.

[bRyaN]

Thanks guys for the feedback...

And pertaining to learning anatomy, i'm quite versed in it, i study Bridgemans books almost exclusively(As well as some Loomis, and Hogarth[only when i want to put emphasis on a muscle that doesn't normally show thru in Bridgemans work])

I justwant to to get better at it..

another thing i want to work hard on is Perspective..and figure placement in an environment...i have some advanced knowlegde on it already, but it couldn't hurt to leanr more...

Once again thanks..

[tinyhands]

If you want some really in depth and hardcore anatomy books maybe pick up elliot goldfingers book, or theres another by stephen rogers peck thats really good as well. Those go real heavy into skeletal and deep muscles that you don't see on the surface, and they go into insertion points and what have you. Really good academic books.

[Anto]

hey iffy, great info on some of the teachers there! id have to agree with you on fargasso - hes no nonsense and tells you how it is - good honest critique if youre open to it

just wondering, i havent been there long - but why would you say its a shitty place to get attached to?

and winjer, yea burban is a little out there..and he ....just....talks....so.....slow....its pretty hard to get past his monotonous slow voice when you have a sick hangover an all you wanna do is draw

[winjer]

just wondering, i havent been there long - but why would you say its a shitty place to get attached to?

I think that has to do with a lot of the people there not taking it seriously. Ive met a few people who've been there for way long and cant draw jack. One said 7 years. They seem to just think about art when theyre in class and then go home and forget about it. If I have to sit through another Burban lecture where they waste time asking him questions about simple things that they couldve picked up just by drawing Im gonna go insane. The red dot gallery is pretty scary too. I was seriously thinking of signing up for a bunch of bs classes and getting a super soaker full of paint and letting loose on a canvas when I saw they actually buy some of the red dot pieces for their collection.
Tuition money put to good use.

[tinyhands]

The art students league, along with many big name schools like art center and such, often get too big and they become big businesses rather than good art schools. The art students league used to be the most prestigious schools ever with the likes of Dean cornwell, and other famous artists and illustrators teaching there. Art center is another example, it used to be great but now its just a name, resting on the laurels of its glorious past. Its a shame for great schools become money hungry, and lose the very essence that once made them so great.

[Anto]

hmm interesting, yea i can see all that - but iffy sounded like he had some personal experience that scarred the league in his eyes

hey winjer - im probably taking a guest class this saturday or sunday to feel out a class that ill be taking in november, ill have to look into that teacher you reccomended for anatomy / comics.
whats your schedule like? u gonna be around in november?
peace
chris

[winjer]

wowwww burban started playing this tape of world music / rain forest sounds in the middle of his lecture on anatomy. He called it taking a break. Im scared.

Anto - Next month Ill be taking faragassos class and I guess Costa and Burbans too, just to get some solid figure drawing time in.

[Elwell]

I was just browsing around the League's site and saw that Irwin Greenberg is teaching there. I'd strongly recommend anyone who's interested in solid observational painting check him out, even if you're not interested in watercolor. (The technique he teaches is the Burt Silverman body-color-on -hot-press-paper one, which has more in common with oil painting than traditional English school transparent watercolor.)

[skatay]

Originally posted by iffy
Faragasso isn't a great artist by any means but he has the perfect personality for being a teacher. He is super anal retentive about academic painting and is great at dispensing information and delivers excellent non-plussed critiques. The structure of the class is a very effective way of teaching the basics of academic oil painting. You don't have to use the Reilly method in his class, although he would prefer you did and I recommend it also.

The great drawback about his class is that it isn't very popular at the League. There are other, far more flashy and neurotic teachers there that attract more accomplished students. So what you have left with Faragasso is old ladies and people that aren't particularly talented or that can't devote that much time to painting. So if you are looking for inspiration from other students, forget it. Faragasso also appears to be an old fuddy-duddy but if you just approach him as someone with a well of information to offer, he is hard to beat. Yes, I think he is the best academic painting teacher at the League.

Besides him there's Harvey Dinnerstein but good luck getting into his class, also he has an obsession with natural light so if you are in his afternoon class during the winter, be prepared to be painting in near darkness. I think it's really stupid of him to not use a lamp with his models but he used to be a pretty decent illustrator in his day and his class show had some really nice student paintings in it so I give him some credit.

Peter Cox (http://www.petercox.us) used to teach there and his student show was probably the most consistent in terms of competence. He also used to be an illustrator. Unfortunately, he left the League but has set up his own school. You can find out more about it on his website.

Then there's Frank Mason (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/art.asp?aid=1056) . I don't know too much about him but he also teaches a controlled palette technique similar to Faragasso but his class show was awful. There were some decent paintings technique-wise but they were done by people who've been in his class for something like twenty years, no I'm not kidding. And they were all so horribly mannered in the Mason style that it made Mason seem like the leader of a cult. Either that or he paints on everyone's painting too much. I thought about taking his class because of the method but didn't want to deal with his lackeys.

Nelson Shanks (http://w3.icdc.com/~nshanks/) teaches a two day class. Expect to be doing nothing but charcoal drawings for months even years before you are allowed to touch paint there though. Also, Shanks appears to be teaching a bastardized version of the Hawthorne/Hensche approach to color. And if you happen to be a cute girl, he will kiss your ass. Of all the teachers at the League, Shanks has the most impressive technique. He is easily the most skilled of all the academic painting teachers there.

But overall, Faragasso is the man. If you go into the class with the right attitude, meaning you are willing to work hard and listen to him you should learn a lot in a little time. I agree with Tinyhands. Get in there, practice the method until you understand it then get out. Don't stay at the League for too long either, it's a shitty place to get attached to.

Fantastic information! And I've been drawing comics for myself for years and find I'm benefiting from applying the techniques in Faragasso's class for overall, larger curves in flow in figures and limbs. My drawings are uniting better and flowing better, after about a month of figure drawing. I looked over my pad of life drawings and definately see progress. I think you can ALWAYS grow if you have principles in mind that are new to try and apply and a live model and an alert eye and mind.

I'll have to take some photos of the underpainting I've been doing as well, so people can see if there's any progression.

[bRyaN]

In Jacks class you have to use oils?

I'm nt a huge fan of the medium at all..i prefer acrylics, gouache, and dyes...

[skatay]

you might look pretty weird if you didn't do oils, I think. I know of a coupla guys who do their own thing, but the Reilly method is all about teaching values. Recognizing values in underpainting and premixing accurate values for a palette you'll use repeatedly.

[tinyhands]

Because you guys have taken, or are taking faragassos class, do you like mixing the 9 value thing? I've heard lots of mixed feelings on that part of the reilly method.

[skatay]

I say it's virtually impossible to be too well grounded in the value ideas of painting. It's actually not that easy, either, cause you have to supposedly mix NEUTRAL grays. It's good practice for value spotting. So, no. I have no problem using the same ideas Frank Reilly used, but I may be prejudiced.

BTW-- thx again Iffy for the info on the other painters. I'm gonna contact one of them and see about some extra lessons to supplement.

[winjer]

Do I need to be able to draw well to get anything out of a painting class?

[tinyhands]

From my perspective, the better you can draw the better you will paint. Most people often start painting prematurely and get frustrated when it doesn't come out right. Its mostly because of their drawing skill. Drawing is painting and vice versa. If you do take a painting class you will learn a ton though. Any exposure to something new will be something learned. But if its oils i would suggest doing burnt umber pickouts or single color value studies. Its good cause your only using one color and its the closest thing to drawing in paint. Save color for later. Learn to control values first. Color theory and such just confuses people.